It's a rainy day in my part of the world (Philadelphia, PA USA). And
while thousands of Lispers are meeting in Amsterdam for the big Lisp
fest followed by a tour of the red light district, I'm wasting time
reading some old usenet posts with Google Groups Beta (oh so very
beta). I ran across this gem by Rainer Joswig and thought I would
copy/paste it as a showing of how far Lisp has come (and how little
cll has changed ;).
<blockquote>
From: ······@lavielle.com (Rainer Joswig)
Subject: Do something. Now.
Date: 1996/12/21
Message-ID: <·································@news.lavielle.com>
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organization: Lavielle EDV Systemberatung GmbH & Co.
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newsgroups: comp.lang.lisp,comp.lang.clos
In article <············@wildcard.demon.co.uk>,
············@wildcard.demon.co.uk wrote:
> Take a look at Dylan. Dispite reports of Dylan's death (probably
> due to some bitter Mac developers misinforming a journalist), it's
> still alive and growing stronger.
So strong, that it is almost completely invisible and has
almost no influence on developer choices at all. Where
is Dylan??? Apple Dylan is not really supported
(Digitool can only provide bug fixes), CMU hasn't delivered
anything exciting yet, Harlequin has not released anything.
But it is getting stronger everyday, huh? Until someone
releases something useful, I'll write my code in Common Lisp
or maybe even Scheme.
> BTW, many Lisp vendors now support CLIM, not CLX. As I understand it,
> CLX is no longer a part of X Windows. CLIM, the Common Lisp Interface
> Manager, is a proprietry alternative.
>
> > The traditional answer from the OS and library writers is
> > (exaggerating only a bit): "Why should we care about you Lispers?
> > there aren't enough of you". Of course, this is unfortunate since it
> > is a catch-22 situation.
>
> Hence the death of CLX? Possibly. I wouldn't know, as I don't use
> X Windows, never mind CLX (historical accident, rather than choice).
Sorry, but you don't seem to know a thing about CLX or CLIM.
Better be silent.
CLX is just some source code that gives you basic X support
for Common Lisp. It is free and you can port it to any version of
Common Lisp with TCP support in a few hours.
CLIM on the other hand is a large User Interface Management
System which is independent of the underlying window system.
It runs on top of CLX, Symbolics' window system, and some other
(Harlequin CAPI, ACL PC, ...).
> CMU are also working on a Dylan implementation. While I'll be
> interested to see what can be done with Java, Dylan is much
> closer to what I'm looking for. This shouldn't be suprising,
> considering how it was designed - by some Lisp programmers
> working for _Apple_. I think Apple have (or had) a much better
> idea of what most developers want today
So much, that Apple killed the project. Seemed not
that important to Apple. They are using C and C++
for their crashing OS (some of their stuff is actually
quite cool, but build on a shaky foundation).
> than the designers of
> Common Lisp, 15 years ago, I'm not knocking CL, but it does
> show its age.
It is so much showing its age. So much that Digitool recently
released version 4.0 of its Macintosh Common Lisp.
It does support native threads, native shared libraries,
almost all OS calls, deals with alien memory, supports
finalization, has ephemeral garbage collection, compiles
to native PowerPC code, has a large CLOS based and easy to
use UI library, has an integrated editor, does tail
recursion elimination, has enthusiastic users and excellent support,
and, yes, people are developing **real** applications
with MCL (some of them you can download on the Net).
Applications you can really *buy*. In Lisp. Isn't
this interesting?
Guys, I like to see you not waste your time with useless
nonsense discussion. We can use Common Lisp (and Scheme)
today and we have a *lot* to do.
Better let's get our act together and do something useful:
Useful hacking areas for advancing Common Lisp
==============================================
- CL-HTTP needs your hacking. We have ideas for the
entire next three centuries. Ask John Mallery about advice
(join ······@ai.mit.edu).
- We like to start a Free CLIM effort. Vendors were not
very helpful to advance CLIM. Martin Cracauer (http://www.cons.org/)
has started a mailing list, which I think will get some discussion
started in the new year. Join now!
- Start thinking about CLIM 3.0.
- Get threads for CMU CL. Ask Martin Cracauer about that.
- support the Lisp Team (http://claretech.com/~tobinbs/lispteam.html)
in creating some business libraries for Common Lisp. This
is highly cool!
- Develop support for Common Lisp in ILU 2.0.
- Help the ALU to develop their new web presence - a cool prototype
is ready (done by Howard R. Stearns). But we want it to run
on CL-HTTP. Integrate the FAQ. This is very important
for the Lisp community.
- Develop a central code management system for the Common Lisp
community on the net.
- Develop an application server for Common Lisp.
- Identify a secure subset of Common Lisp for remote execution.
- Develop a free OODBMS for Common Lisp.
- Write a book about Common Lisp on Windows and MacOS.
- Develop better development tools for CLOS.
- Help developing SOM / QuickDraw 3d / QuickDraw GX /
OpenTransport / ... support for Macintosh Common Lisp. Ask
Digitool about SMP (symmetric multi-processing)
for the new PowerMacs.
- Yes and finally, but on every wishlist, develop
an object oriented portable DEFSYSTEM facility.
This would be useful for all of us. What is your contribution?
Sitting and waiting for a phone call from some company, while
writing completely useless postings to Usenet??? If only people would
stop writing device drivers for numerous useless Unix
variants and start something real cool.
Lisp User Group Meeting in Germany next Year
============================================
We are currently preparing the second Lisp User Group Meeting in
Germany (see http://www.lisp.de/). Soon (hopefully next week) we will
announce the agenda. We have got some interesting talks
about CL-HTTP application, Site management for the Web, EuLisp,
real distributed computing
with Scheme, the Statice OODMBS, etc.
We want people to join us in Munich. If you already know
that you will attend the Lisp User Group Meeting, send
us a note to ·············@lisp.de .
If you have a contribution, let us know about that.
Write to ·············@lisp.de , too.
Lisp User Group in Germany/Europe
=================================
We also want feedback on how to start an active Lisp User Group in
Germany/Europe:
**** Mail us your ideas about the ****
**** German/European Lisp User Group ****
**** at ···········@lisp.de ****
Rainer Joswig
</blockquote>
Google really needs to stop messing with the content.
Anyway, all you observant Lispers will notice that a number of items
can either be checked off or marked as in progress. At least so far
as the free Lisp tools go, good progress seems to have been made.
--
An ideal world is left as an excercise to the reader.
--- Paul Graham, On Lisp 8.1
No excuses. No apologies. Just do it.
--- Erik Naggum
David Steuber wrote:
> [...]
> Lisp User Group Meeting in Germany next Year
> ============================================
>
> We are currently preparing the second Lisp User Group Meeting in
> Germany (see http://www.lisp.de/). Soon (hopefully next week) we will
> announce the agenda. We have got some interesting talks
> about CL-HTTP application, Site management for the Web, EuLisp,
> real distributed computing
> with Scheme, the Statice OODMBS, etc.
> [...]
> Anyway, all you observant Lispers will notice that a number of items
> can either be checked off or marked as in progress. At least so far
> as the free Lisp tools go, good progress seems to have been made.
>
Unfortunately the lisp.de doesn't exist anymore. Does anybody
know of Lisp (or even functional programming, or just anything not
C) user groups in Northern Germany, preferably around Bremen?
--
No man is good enough to govern another man without that other's
consent. -- Abraham Lincoln
On 2005-04-24 04:56:26 +0200, Ulrich Hobelmann <···········@web.de> said:
> David Steuber wrote:
>> [...]
>> Lisp User Group Meeting in Germany next Year
>> ============================================
>>
>> We are currently preparing the second Lisp User Group Meeting in
>> Germany (see http://www.lisp.de/). Soon (hopefully next week) we will
>> announce the agenda. We have got some interesting talks
>> about CL-HTTP application, Site management for the Web, EuLisp,
>> real distributed computing
>> with Scheme, the Statice OODMBS, etc.
>> [...]
>> Anyway, all you observant Lispers will notice that a number of items
>> can either be checked off or marked as in progress. At least so far
>> as the free Lisp tools go, good progress seems to have been made.
>>
>
> Unfortunately the lisp.de doesn't exist anymore. Does anybody know of
> Lisp (or even functional programming, or just anything not C) user
> groups in Northern Germany, preferably around Bremen?
There are meetings in Hamburg and Berlin.
more local lisp user groups:
http://lisp.tech.coop/Local
Hi,
Where and when is this Lisp meeting? The link
given above does not work.
Mark
Engelke Eschner wrote:
> On 2005-04-24 04:56:26 +0200, Ulrich Hobelmann <···········@web.de>
said:
>
> > David Steuber wrote:
> >> [...]
> >> Lisp User Group Meeting in Germany next Year
> >> ============================================
> >>
> >> We are currently preparing the second Lisp User Group Meeting in
> >> Germany (see http://www.lisp.de/). Soon (hopefully next week) we
will
> >> announce the agenda. We have got some interesting talks
> >> about CL-HTTP application, Site management for the Web, EuLisp,
> >> real distributed computing
> >> with Scheme, the Statice OODMBS, etc.
> >> [...]
> >> Anyway, all you observant Lispers will notice that a number of
items
> >> can either be checked off or marked as in progress. At least so
far
> >> as the free Lisp tools go, good progress seems to have been made.
> >>
> >
> > Unfortunately the lisp.de doesn't exist anymore. Does anybody know
of
> > Lisp (or even functional programming, or just anything not C) user
> > groups in Northern Germany, preferably around Bremen?
>
> There are meetings in Hamburg and Berlin.
>
> more local lisp user groups:
> http://lisp.tech.coop/Local
OK. Got it.
Mark
Mark Tarver wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Where and when is this Lisp meeting? The link
> given above does not work.
>
> Mark
>
> Engelke Eschner wrote:
> > On 2005-04-24 04:56:26 +0200, Ulrich Hobelmann <···········@web.de>
> said:
> >
> > > David Steuber wrote:
> > >> [...]
> > >> Lisp User Group Meeting in Germany next Year
> > >> ============================================
> > >>
> > >> We are currently preparing the second Lisp User Group Meeting in
> > >> Germany (see http://www.lisp.de/). Soon (hopefully next week) we
> will
> > >> announce the agenda. We have got some interesting talks
> > >> about CL-HTTP application, Site management for the Web, EuLisp,
> > >> real distributed computing
> > >> with Scheme, the Statice OODMBS, etc.
> > >> [...]
> > >> Anyway, all you observant Lispers will notice that a number of
> items
> > >> can either be checked off or marked as in progress. At least so
> far
> > >> as the free Lisp tools go, good progress seems to have been
made.
> > >>
> > >
> > > Unfortunately the lisp.de doesn't exist anymore. Does anybody
know
> of
> > > Lisp (or even functional programming, or just anything not C)
user
> > > groups in Northern Germany, preferably around Bremen?
> >
> > There are meetings in Hamburg and Berlin.
> >
> > more local lisp user groups:
> > http://lisp.tech.coop/Local
Ulrich Hobelmann <···········@web.de> writes:
> Unfortunately the lisp.de doesn't exist anymore. Does anybody know of
> Lisp (or even functional programming, or just anything not C) user
> groups in Northern Germany, preferably around Bremen?
Now there is `eurolisp', a mailing list for European Lisp users.
http://common-lisp.net/mailman/listinfo/eurolisp
Paolo
--
Why Lisp? http://lisp.tech.coop/RtL%20Highlight%20Film
Recommended Common Lisp libraries/tools (see also http://clrfi.alu.org):
- ASDF/ASDF-INSTALL: system building/installation
- CL-PPCRE: regular expressions
- UFFI: Foreign Function Interface
David Steuber <·····@david-steuber.com> writes:
> beta). I ran across this gem by Rainer Joswig and thought I would
> copy/paste it as a showing of how far Lisp has come (and how little
> cll has changed ;).
>
> <blockquote>
> From: ······@lavielle.com (Rainer Joswig)
> Subject: Do something. Now.
> Date: 1996/12/21
[...]
> Useful hacking areas for advancing Common Lisp
[...]
> - We like to start a Free CLIM effort. Vendors were not
Thanks to the dedication of the McCLIM developers, we have a usable
free CLIM implementation:
McCLIM
http://www.mcclim.org
> - Develop a central code management system for the Common Lisp
> community on the net.
We now have Common-Lisp.net:
http://common-lisp.net
I don't know whether this is what Rainer meant.
> - Develop a free OODBMS for Common Lisp.
Some of the existing databases or interfaces probably qualify:
http://www.cliki.net/database
> - Write a book about Common Lisp on Windows and MacOS.
There are new Lisp books:
Practical Common Lisp
http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book
Successful Lisp
http://psg.com/~dlamkins/sl/cover.html
> - Yes and finally, but on every wishlist, develop
> an object oriented portable DEFSYSTEM facility.
ASDF?
> Lisp User Group Meeting in Germany next Year
[...]
> We also want feedback on how to start an active Lisp User Group in
> Germany/Europe:
There are several informal Lispnik gatherings and more formal Lisp
meetings/conferences.
Paolo
--
Why Lisp? http://lisp.tech.coop/RtL%20Highlight%20Film
Recommended Common Lisp libraries/tools (see also http://clrfi.alu.org):
- ASDF/ASDF-INSTALL: system building/installation
- CL-PPCRE: regular expressions
- UFFI: Foreign Function Interface
In article <··············@plato.moon.paoloamoroso.it>,
Paolo Amoroso <·······@mclink.it> wrote:
> David Steuber <·····@david-steuber.com> writes:
>
> > beta). I ran across this gem by Rainer Joswig and thought I would
> > copy/paste it as a showing of how far Lisp has come (and how little
> > cll has changed ;).
> >
> > <blockquote>
> > From: ······@lavielle.com (Rainer Joswig)
> > Subject: Do something. Now.
> > Date: 1996/12/21
> [...]
> > Useful hacking areas for advancing Common Lisp
> [...]
> > - We like to start a Free CLIM effort. Vendors were not
Ah, my old postings...
> > - Develop a central code management system for the Common Lisp
> > community on the net.
>
> We now have Common-Lisp.net:
>
> http://common-lisp.net
>
> I don't know whether this is what Rainer meant.
Well, it is maybe half the way... But very useful.
> > - Yes and finally, but on every wishlist, develop
> > an object oriented portable DEFSYSTEM facility.
>
> ASDF?
I can't say that I'm a big fan of the ASDF design.
Anyway, there is quite some progress since 1996.
Thanks to the people who made that possible.
Rainer Joswig <······@lisp.de> writes:
> In article <··············@plato.moon.paoloamoroso.it>,
> Paolo Amoroso <·······@mclink.it> wrote:
[...]
> Ah, my old postings...
>
>> > - Develop a central code management system for the Common Lisp
>> > community on the net.
>>
>> We now have Common-Lisp.net:
>>
>> http://common-lisp.net
>>
>> I don't know whether this is what Rainer meant.
>
> Well, it is maybe half the way... But very useful.
What's the other half?
Paolo
--
Why Lisp? http://lisp.tech.coop/RtL%20Highlight%20Film
Recommended Common Lisp libraries/tools (see also http://clrfi.alu.org):
- ASDF/ASDF-INSTALL: system building/installation
- CL-PPCRE: regular expressions
- UFFI: Foreign Function Interface