From: Brandon J. Van Every
Subject: web authoring tools
Date: 
Message-ID: <G_f6e.6815$44.1726@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net>
As you might have noticed, my website sucks.  Enough people keep ragging on
me about it, that maybe I'll up and do something about it.  However, I
currently have FrontPage 2000 and I hate it.  Ideally, I would like an open
source website + html design tool implemented in Scheme or Lisp, so that
possibly someday I can fix whatever's broken about it.  That said, I would
like a tool that actually saves me work as a web designer.  I don't feel
that FrontPage 2000 does this.  I'm saying there's a certain level of
maturity that has to exist in the app, it can't be some "alpha quality"
thing.  If you know of such a beast in Scheme or Lisp, please let me know.
If no such beast exists then I'll look elsewhere.

I believe my webhost can take either Unix or Windows stuff.  My local
machine where I do all development is Windows.  I'd be interested to know
about Linux solutions too though.

-- 
Cheers,                         www.indiegamedesign.com
Brandon Van Every               Seattle, WA

"We live in a world of very bright people building
crappy software with total shit for tools and process."
                                - Ed McKenzie
From: Christopher Browne
Subject: Re: web authoring tools
Date: 
Message-ID: <eqg6e.1310$MZ2.142643@news20.bellglobal.com>
The world rejoiced as "Brandon J. Van Every" <·····················@mycompanyname.com> wrote:
> I believe my webhost can take either Unix or Windows stuff.  My
> local machine where I do all development is Windows.  I'd be
> interested to know about Linux solutions too though.

Have you considered using a text editor, and uploading content to the
site?

I happen to use DocBook/SGML as the raw form of my "content;" my
hosting providers are completely oblivious to this because what they
get are Just Plain Files.

If I translated it over into some sort of Lisp form, I'd still handle
it the same way; I wouldn't particularly need a Lisp system on the web
site because the functionality requirements are satisfied by doing all
transforms statically on MY OWN HARDWARE, no need to install anything
at all on the HTTP host.

The fact that you apparently imagine it necessary to have some unified
"content management" system that has to run identically everywhere is
doubtless part of why people consider you worthy of ridicule.
-- 
(format nil ···@~S" "cbbrowne" "ntlug.org")
http://linuxfinances.info/info/lsf.html
The way to a man's heart is through the left ventricle.
From: Brandon J. Van Every
Subject: Re: web authoring tools
Date: 
Message-ID: <TJh6e.6861$44.934@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net>
Christopher Browne wrote:
> The world rejoiced as "Brandon J. Van Every"
> <·····················@mycompanyname.com> wrote:
>> I believe my webhost can take either Unix or Windows stuff.  My
>> local machine where I do all development is Windows.  I'd be
>> interested to know about Linux solutions too though.
>
> Have you considered using a text editor, and uploading content to the
> site?

I do a certain amount of hand markup when I participate in discussion forums
on websites or wikis.  As far as I'm concerned, such processes are labor
intensive.  I can remember a few very common operations like Bold, Italic,
Paragraph, line break, List elements, and (surprisingly more than most) how
to make an URL anchor.  But that's as much as I'm gonna know or care to
know.  Looking up anything else is a tedious chore and my time is better
spent on other matters.

Also, synchronizing changes with a remote website, refactoring, and source
control are non-trivial issues.  I want real tools to deal with these jobs,
not ad-hoc broken "roll your own" stuff.  I'm simply not that much of a guru
and don't want to become one.  I want to be an AI guru, not a website guru.

This says nothing of higher level web layout issues, or image conversions,
which I'm certainly not going to try to funge by hand.  FrontPage 2000 has
the basics of all of this.  They're just clunky, sucky, and sorta broken
tools.

> The fact that you apparently imagine it necessary to have some unified
> "content management" system that has to run identically everywhere is
> doubtless part of why people consider you worthy of ridicule.

I'm sure the Lisp and Scheme worlds are filled with a disproportionate
number of "roll your own" tinkerers that have no serious interest in real
world production pipelines.  If there are no such open source tools in Lisp
or Scheme, I'll go ask the Python crowd.  I know they've got some things,
and they prioritize ease-of-use.

-- 
Cheers,                     www.indiegamedesign.com
Brandon Van Every           Seattle, WA

"Troll" - (n.) Anything you don't like.
Usage: "He's just a troll."
From: Arctic Fidelity
Subject: Re: web authoring tools
Date: 
Message-ID: <Xns9634E72E8FB62afsacrificumdeonet@216.196.97.131>
"Brandon J. Van Every" <·····················@mycompanyname.com> wrote
in ······················@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net: 

> Christopher Browne wrote:
>> The world rejoiced as "Brandon J. Van Every"
>> <·····················@mycompanyname.com> wrote:
>> Have you considered using a text editor, and uploading content to the
>> site?

I would have to agree with this. I currently use Boxer Text Editor, 
which has the ability to "store" your "hard to remember" code in a way 
that makes it easy to drop it into your page.

	<http://www.sacrificumdeo.net/gpage1.html>
	
However, since you want a Scheme solution, why not take this a step 
further? Simply create a few functions which generate code in a form 
of your document that you like, and create this file through the use 
of Boxer Editor and the "templates". Then, use the "User Tools" to 
parse it with your choice of scheme environments and have all the pages 
generated dynamically to your fitting. Thus, you only have to code 
once, and then forget, but you'll have all the advantages of hand 
written code.

I recommend Boxer to you because it's a Windows app that is pretty 
easy to use, and is of excellent quality, mature (10+ years) and has a 
great support set up. There are plenty of text editors out there.

> I do a certain amount of hand markup when I participate in discussion
> forums on websites or wikis.  As far as I'm concerned, such processes
> are labor intensive.  I can remember a few very common operations like
> Bold, Italic, Paragraph, line break, List elements, and (surprisingly
> more than most) how to make an URL anchor.  But that's as much as I'm
> gonna know or care to know.  Looking up anything else is a tedious
> chore and my time is better spent on other matters.

The truth is that if you want to solve your "coding problems" with 
your current site, it's best to figure out the correct code yourself, 
as most tools are just that, tools. They won't put in good code if you 
don't know how to write good code.

That said, it's easy to set up a system, and quite trivial actually, 
which will generate this code automatically for you any number of 
times once you have successfully figured out what code you want to 
generate. Boxer + Scheme + XHTML + CSS is my recommended route.

> Also, synchronizing changes with a remote website, refactoring, and
> source control are non-trivial issues.  I want real tools to deal with
> these jobs, not ad-hoc broken "roll your own" stuff.  I'm simply not
> that much of a guru and don't want to become one.  I want to be an AI
> guru, not a website guru. 

(I know I'm pushing Boxer, but it's a great program, and has a lot of 
maturity behind it. Not to mention I use it, so I have to support it!
;-) )

Boxer integrates your website uploading, and refactoring is quite 
trivial if you have a high-level Scheme based library for generating 
your code. You simply code once, and have the rest done for you.

Source control can be managed easily enough for any site using a 
File Manager and Project Files.

> This says nothing of higher level web layout issues, or image
> conversions, which I'm certainly not going to try to funge by hand. 
> FrontPage 2000 has the basics of all of this.  They're just clunky,
> sucky, and sorta broken tools.

Again, if you want to solve the problems with Frontpage, you have to 
do it yourself. Just changing software is not going to get you 
anywhere. If you want to save time, implement an efficient pipeline for 
producing, reproducing, and managing your code, but write the code by
hand.

Mature programs that work well on Windows and have the features you 
need and the ease of use your desire would be PLT Scheme, Boxer, Chez, 
and Mozilla based browsers. ;-)

>> The fact that you apparently imagine it necessary to have some
>> unified "content management" system that has to run identically
>> everywhere is doubtless part of why people consider you worthy of
>> ridicule. 
> 
> I'm sure the Lisp and Scheme worlds are filled with a disproportionate
> number of "roll your own" tinkerers that have no serious interest in
> real world production pipelines.  If there are no such open source
> tools in Lisp or Scheme, I'll go ask the Python crowd.  I know they've
> got some things, and they prioritize ease-of-use.

The truth is, if you are looking for a program which enhances your 
pipeline that is written in Scheme, why would there be any? There are 
already excellent programs out there for that, but you have to know 
how to use them correctly if you are going to get things right.

Adobe GoLive, Macromedia Dreamweaver, BBEdit, Boxer Text Editor, etc.

They all make your life easier, but you still have to know how to use 
them. 

Since you're into AI, why not use this as a project? Create an AI 
system that takes pages written in some format you decide, and parses 
them into HTML. Since you want AI, you could perhaps even have it 
accept a loose format that it has to "use its brain" to figure out.

Here's what I would do:

1. Create a nice set of functions to automatically generate the html 
you are looking for. Here's a sample of what it might look like to 
generate a simple page:

(write-htm
  (gen-header "Title" <formatcode>)
  (gen-body "Title"
  			"Name"
			"Date"
			(gen-toc (get-toc <filename>))
			(gen-main (get-main <filename>)))
  (gen-copyright "Copyright &copy; 2005 Arctic Fidelity")
  <filename>)
  
The files for toc and main could be simply formatted text files 
readable by anyone.

2. Set up templates in Boxer Editor so that you can automatically 
enter most of this code.

3. Set up an User Tool to call a Scheme interpreter to parse it.

4. Enjoy.

There you have it, something that uses mature tools, and Scheme to get 
the job done and make your life easier. You can choose to use CL, C, 
Python, or any other number of languages if you prefer, or any other 
text editor you want to use. The choice is yours. What's important is 
that you realize that a tool is not going to fix your problems, but you 
can make doing things the "right" way is easier.

-- 
Arctic Fidelity <····@sacrificumdeo.net>
<http://www.sacrificumdeo.net>
"Beware of bugs in the above code; I have only proved it correct, not
tried it." -- Donald Knuth
From: Brandon J. Van Every
Subject: Re: web authoring tools
Date: 
Message-ID: <Xns9634E045D29B9vaneveryindiegamedes@207.69.189.191>
Arctic Fidelity wrote:
>
> [about Boxer]

Thanks for the Boxer tip!

> Since you're into AI, why not use this as a project?

Because I already have an AI project, and it would waste time to redirect 
my energy to webdesign projects.  I am not looking for lots of additional 
work.  Web design is by now hopefully an activity where labor can be 
minimized, it shouldn't need to be a research activity to get things done.  
My current website has 1 principle advantage: zero labor.

> What's important is 
> that you realize that a tool is not going to fix your problems, but you 
> can make doing things the "right" way is easier.

I will consider that in the future.  For the present, I am far less 
interested in the "right" way than the convenient way.


-- 
Cheers,                     www.indiegamedesign.com
Brandon Van Every           Seattle, WA

"The pioneer is the one with the arrows in his back."
                          - anonymous entrepreneur
From: Frank Buss
Subject: Re: web authoring tools
Date: 
Message-ID: <d3cb22$9el$1@newsreader3.netcologne.de>
"Brandon J. Van Every" <·····················@mycompanyname.com> wrote:

> This says nothing of higher level web layout issues, or image
> conversions, which I'm certainly not going to try to funge by hand. 
> FrontPage 2000 has the basics of all of this.  They're just clunky,
> sucky, and sorta broken tools.

why not creating the "higher level web layout" with Lisp or Scheme, too? 
Currently I'm using Dreamweaver MX (a far better tool for webdesign than 
FrontPage) for my webpage www.frank-buss.de, and if I create a new page, 
I copy an existing one and edit it.

But my page is very technical and no special layouts are needed, so when 
I've some time, I'll translate it to Lisp: I think every HTML page can be 
described with a Lisp file and some high level markup, like "title", 
"source", "footer", which in turn uses some low level markup, like "h1", 
"html" etc. Perhaps I'll use HTMLgen ( 
http://allegroserve.sourceforge.net/aserve-dist/doc/htmlgen.html ) 
because I've already decided to use portable aserver for my new server.

Synchronizing and versioning is very easy with CVS: You can edit and test 
it locally, commit the changes and just "cvs update" it on your 
webserver.

-- 
Frank Bu�, ··@frank-buss.de
http://www.frank-buss.de, http://www.it4-systems.de
From: Brandon J. Van Every
Subject: Re: web authoring tools
Date: 
Message-ID: <Lzm6e.3752$go4.369@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net>
Frank Buss wrote:
> "Brandon J. Van Every" <·····················@mycompanyname.com>
> wrote:
>
>> This says nothing of higher level web layout issues, or image
>> conversions, which I'm certainly not going to try to funge by hand.
>> FrontPage 2000 has the basics of all of this.  They're just clunky,
>> sucky, and sorta broken tools.
>
> why not creating the "higher level web layout" with Lisp or Scheme,
> too? Currently I'm using Dreamweaver MX (a far better tool for
> webdesign than FrontPage) for my webpage www.frank-buss.de, and if I
> create a new page, I copy an existing one and edit it.

Indeed I've heard good things about Dreamweaver.  It seems, however, that
you're under-utilizing its capabilities.  In the past I've done websites
like yours by hand, and it would be trivial to do it in FrontPage.  You do
remind me that a technical website doesn't necessarily need a lot of spit
and polish, just technical content.  On the other hand, I'd like the
possibility of spit 'n' polish.  Here are some examples of pretty good
website design for my purposes as a game developer or consultant:

http://www.igda.org/seattle/
http://www.cyphondesign.com/
http://www.alphageeksinc.com/
http://www.gamasutra.com

The first 3 sites "breathe well," they aren't cluttered.  Gamasutra is a
little cluttered, but has good aesthetics.  Also when I write articles for
other people's consumption, this is the standard I'd measure them by.

I'm not sure if I want a blogging capability, or something more like
Gamasutra.  That's a quality vs. quantity issue.  I don't know if I want a
web forum.  I generally don't like web forums and I've tended to let Yahoo!
Groups do the mailing list job.

> Synchronizing and versioning is very easy with CVS: You can edit and
> test it locally, commit the changes and just "cvs update" it on your
> webserver.

Yeah, FrontPage has probably obscured the natural relationship between a
website and a source repository.  I would not use CVS though.  I've heard
good things about DARCS.  http://abridgegame.org/darcs/  I am not up on
source control issues particular to web design though, if any.

-- 
Cheers,                         www.indiegamedesign.com
Brandon Van Every               Seattle, WA

"We live in a world of very bright people building
crappy software with total shit for tools and process."
                                - Ed McKenzie
From: Frank Buss
Subject: Re: web authoring tools
Date: 
Message-ID: <d3ect3$5ko$1@newsreader3.netcologne.de>
"Brandon J. Van Every" <·····················@mycompanyname.com> wrote:

> On
> the other hand, I'd like the possibility of spit 'n' polish.  Here are
> some examples of pretty good website design for my purposes as a game
> developer or consultant: 
> 
> http://www.igda.org/seattle/
> http://www.cyphondesign.com/
> http://www.alphageeksinc.com/
> http://www.gamasutra.com

Looks nice, but only the third site is usable, because I don't like fixed 
with pages: On my screen (1600x1200) are too much empty room on the left 
and right side of the text and I have to scroll to much, compared to a 
page which adapts itself to the window width.

> Yeah, FrontPage has probably obscured the natural relationship between
> a website and a source repository.  I would not use CVS though.  I've
> heard good things about DARCS.  http://abridgegame.org/darcs/  I am
> not up on source control issues particular to web design though, if
> any. 

looks interesting, but I already know CVS, it is easy to use and very 
stable, because it is used in many projects and I don't need complicated 
features, like branches and decentralized development, just something for 
easy synchronizing and for retrieving old versions.

-- 
Frank Bu�, ··@frank-buss.de
http://www.frank-buss.de, http://www.it4-systems.de
From: Frank Buss
Subject: Re: web authoring tools
Date: 
Message-ID: <d3ecv7$9re$1@newsreader3.netcologne.de>
"Brandon J. Van Every" <·····················@mycompanyname.com> wrote:

> On
> the other hand, I'd like the possibility of spit 'n' polish.  Here are
> some examples of pretty good website design for my purposes as a game
> developer or consultant: 
> 
> http://www.igda.org/seattle/
> http://www.cyphondesign.com/
> http://www.alphageeksinc.com/
> http://www.gamasutra.com

Looks nice, but only the third site is usable, because I don't like fixed 
with pages: On my screen (1600x1200) are too much empty room on the left 
and right side of the text and I have to scroll to much, compared to a 
page which adapts itself to the window width.

> Yeah, FrontPage has probably obscured the natural relationship between
> a website and a source repository.  I would not use CVS though.  I've
> heard good things about DARCS.  http://abridgegame.org/darcs/  I am
> not up on source control issues particular to web design though, if
> any. 

looks interesting, but I already know CVS, it is easy to use and very 
stable, because it is used in many projects and I don't need complicated 
features, like branches and decentralized development, just something for 
easy synchronizing and for retrieving old versions.

-- 
Frank Bu�, ··@frank-buss.de
http://www.frank-buss.de, http://www.it4-systems.de
From: Frank Buss
Subject: Re: web authoring tools
Date: 
Message-ID: <d3edj7$av0$1@newsreader3.netcologne.de>
"Brandon J. Van Every" <·····················@mycompanyname.com> wrote:

> On
> the other hand, I'd like the possibility of spit 'n' polish.  Here are
> some examples of pretty good website design for my purposes as a game
> developer or consultant: 
> 
> http://www.igda.org/seattle/
> http://www.cyphondesign.com/
> http://www.alphageeksinc.com/
> http://www.gamasutra.com

Looks nice, but only the third site is usable, because I don't like fixed 
with pages: On my screen (1600x1200) are too much empty room on the left 
and right side of the text and I have to scroll to much, compared to a 
page which adapts itself to the window width.

> Yeah, FrontPage has probably obscured the natural relationship between
> a website and a source repository.  I would not use CVS though.  I've
> heard good things about DARCS.  http://abridgegame.org/darcs/  I am
> not up on source control issues particular to web design though, if
> any. 

looks interesting, but I already know CVS, it is easy to use and very 
stable, because it is used in many projects and I don't need complicated 
features, like branches and decentralized development, just something for 
easy synchronizing and for retrieving old versions.

-- 
Frank Bu�, ··@frank-buss.de
http://www.frank-buss.de, http://www.it4-systems.de
From: Ulrich Hobelmann
Subject: Re: web authoring tools
Date: 
Message-ID: <3bucfpF6lipdvU1@individual.net>
Brandon J. Van Every wrote:
> I do a certain amount of hand markup when I participate in discussion forums
> on websites or wikis.  As far as I'm concerned, such processes are labor
> intensive.  I can remember a few very common operations like Bold, Italic,
> Paragraph, line break, List elements, and (surprisingly more than most) how
> to make an URL anchor.  But that's as much as I'm gonna know or care to
> know.  Looking up anything else is a tedious chore and my time is better
> spent on other matters.

For someone who spends his years planning and thinking about game 
development (as opposed to being productive), you have a high 
resistance to learn even basic web technologies.

How long will it keep you away from your game thing to write 
simple website generation tool yourself (which just outputs some 
basic HTML)?  You'll even help your programming fluency in the 
process.

If you want a sweet look, you should look into CSS; if you don't 
care about looks for now, just use the 8 or so HTML tags you 
mentioned to write your site.  A tool that automates some of the 
<tag>pain</tag> is as trivial as you want it to be.

> Also, synchronizing changes with a remote website, refactoring, and source
> control are non-trivial issues.  I want real tools to deal with these jobs,
> not ad-hoc broken "roll your own" stuff.  I'm simply not that much of a guru
> and don't want to become one.  I want to be an AI guru, not a website guru.

Write a shell script to check what files are changed recently and 
scp those to your website location.  *note to self: do that sometime*

> This says nothing of higher level web layout issues, or image conversions,
> which I'm certainly not going to try to funge by hand.  FrontPage 2000 has
> the basics of all of this.  They're just clunky, sucky, and sorta broken
> tools.

I wouldn't know how to automate that.  I used iPhoto to export my 
pictures once as a web-page (and changed the HTML source; what 
iPhoto does, sucks and is butt ugly).  I don't know what kinds of 
image conversions you have to do...?  Once the pictures are in 
place, you just copy them to the server.

>>The fact that you apparently imagine it necessary to have some unified
>>"content management" system that has to run identically everywhere is
>>doubtless part of why people consider you worthy of ridicule.

Actually I'm thinking about writing just that myself.  So far I 
use some kind of (my own) preprocessor (because (writing) HTML 
sucks).  A CMS that will automatically check the web source 
repository for new files (like make) and create and upload the new 
pages is the next step.  I don't know what would be wrong with a 
unified CMS?

> I'm sure the Lisp and Scheme worlds are filled with a disproportionate
> number of "roll your own" tinkerers that have no serious interest in real
> world production pipelines.  If there are no such open source tools in Lisp
> or Scheme, I'll go ask the Python crowd.  I know they've got some things,
> and they prioritize ease-of-use.

Why not write the (quite easy) stuff yourself?  I'm really not 
interested in web design, but I spent a couple of days figuring 
out the basics.

BTW: you seem to spend most of your time thinking about being 
creative (instead of being it).  I just read this really nice (and 
loooooooong) article about creativity, and honestly, it seems 
quite true to me.  It's what we all know and just want to read 
once in a while.  Maybe you'll find it useful/inspiring.

http://www.gapingvoid.com/Moveable_Type/archives/000932.html
From: Christopher Browne
Subject: Re: web authoring tools
Date: 
Message-ID: <dKk6e.2078$MZ2.211917@news20.bellglobal.com>
The world rejoiced as "Brandon J. Van Every" <·····················@mycompanyname.com> wrote:
> Christopher Browne wrote:
>> The world rejoiced as "Brandon J. Van Every"
>> <·····················@mycompanyname.com> wrote:
>>> I believe my webhost can take either Unix or Windows stuff.  My
>>> local machine where I do all development is Windows.  I'd be
>>> interested to know about Linux solutions too though.
>>
>> Have you considered using a text editor, and uploading content to the
>> site?
>
> I do a certain amount of hand markup when I participate in discussion forums
> on websites or wikis.  As far as I'm concerned, such processes are labor
> intensive.  I can remember a few very common operations like Bold, Italic,
> Paragraph, line break, List elements, and (surprisingly more than most) how
> to make an URL anchor.  But that's as much as I'm gonna know or care to
> know.  Looking up anything else is a tedious chore and my time is better
> spent on other matters.

In other words, you're the variety of incompetent that blames all your
problems on the tools in an attempt to pass off responsibility on
someone else.

A competent person would say "Well, these tools suck, so I had to work
around their deficiencies."

I have had opportunity to have to "work around" the deficiencies of
things as gross as VMS DCL; while I'll happily grouse about how awful
that was, it so happens that I got my work done despite its
inadequacy.
-- 
output = reverse("gro.mca" ·@" "enworbbc")
http://linuxfinances.info/info/lsf.html
Rules of  the Evil Overlord  #149. "Ropes supporting  various fixtures
will not be  tied next to open windows  or staircases, and chandeliers
will be hung way at the top of the ceiling."
<http://www.eviloverlord.com/>
From: Brandon J. Van Every
Subject: Re: web authoring tools
Date: 
Message-ID: <eIm6e.3753$go4.3490@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net>
Christopher Browne wrote:
>
> In other words, you're the variety of incompetent that blames all your
> problems on the tools in an attempt to pass off responsibility on
> someone else.

Gosh I'm so impressed at your knowledge of web development and ability to
impart useful resources about tools and techniques in Lisp / Scheme.  All
I've gotten from you is http://www.docbook.org , which I'm not convinced is
appropriate to most commercial web development.  Rather it focuses on the
problem of technical documentation.

-- 
Cheers,                         www.indiegamedesign.com
Brandon Van Every               Seattle, WA

"We live in a world of very bright people building
crappy software with total shit for tools and process."
                                - Ed McKenzie
From: Frank Buss
Subject: Re: web authoring tools
Date: 
Message-ID: <d3c8k5$635$1@newsreader3.netcologne.de>
"Brandon J. Van Every" <·····················@mycompanyname.com> wrote:

> That said, I would like a tool that actually saves me work
> as a web designer.

that's easy for your page:

(defun current-date ()
  (multiple-value-bind (second
                        minute
                        hour 
                        date
                        month
                        year
                        day
                        daylight-p
                        zone) (get-decoded-time)
    (declare (ignore second minute hour day daylight-p zone))
    (format nil #.(concatenate 'string
                               "~[~;January~;Februrary~;March~;"
                               "April~;May~;June~;"
                               "July~;August~;September~;"
                               "October~;November~;December~] ~D, ~D")
            month date year)))

(with-open-file (s "c:/tmp/index.html"
                   :direction :output
                   :if-exists :supersede)
  (format s "<html><head><title>Indie Game Design</title></head>
             <body>
             <p>Technical difficulties.&nbsp;
                Please check back in a few days.</p>
             <p>- Brandon Van Every, ~A</p>
             </body>
             </html>"
          (current-date)))


SCNR :-)

-- 
Frank Bu�, ··@frank-buss.de
http://www.frank-buss.de, http://www.it4-systems.de
From: Thomas Hafner
Subject: Re: web authoring tools
Date: 
Message-ID: <d3dbnb$383$1@news.mch.sbs.de>
Have a look at LAML <http://www.cs.auc.dk/~normark/laml/>.

  Thomas
From: Rob Warnock
Subject: Re: web authoring tools
Date: 
Message-ID: <XLudnbR7dpuv1cbfRVn-gQ@speakeasy.net>
Thomas Hafner  <·············@spamgourmet.com> wrote:
+---------------
| Have a look at LAML <http://www.cs.auc.dk/~normark/laml/>.
+---------------

And the other tools listed at <http://www.cliki.net/Web>,
such as HTOUT, CL-WHO, CLHP, HTML-TEMPLATE, etc.


-Rob

-----
Rob Warnock			<····@rpw3.org>
627 26th Avenue			<URL:http://rpw3.org/>
San Mateo, CA 94403		(650)572-2607
comp.lang.lisp / 2005 / apr