hello
i would like to have some remote, not so big, complex or urgent job in
Common Lisp. since i live in Ukraine, fee could be surprisingly low as for
USA/EU-living people. :)
i don't have much experience with Common Lisp, but i estimate my general
programming skills as quite high (i was among the best students in
nation-wide ACM programming contests and other contests, for example), and i
have no problems hacking different Lisp libs and implementations (as i
remember, i helped to fix some bugs in ECL and ABCL, and found one in
CormanLisp's code, don't know if it's fixed :)), so i think i can cope with
almost any job.
i have some experience in lots of different technologies, including
web-related stuff, SQL, 3D graphics (especially OpenGL), COM, Win32 API,
low-level code optimizations etc.
i estimate my chances of getting any Lisp-related job as very low, but maybe
someone can offer such, so i'll get proof that lisp is not dead :) ?
(actually i would like to participate in some interesting projects, like
writting Common Lisp implementation for .NET with innovative features,
advanced IDE, lib for web-programming etc., but all people need to eat :(,
so i have to search for job, and jobs that are not connected with Lisp are
much more boring as i feel :))
with best regards, Alex 'killer_storm' Mizrahi.
From: Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t
Subject: Re: can anyone offer Lisp job?
Date:
Message-ID: <REM-2005apr17-006@Yahoo.Com>
> From: "Alex Mizrahi" <········@users.sourceforge.net>
> i would like to have some remote, not so big, complex or urgent job
> in Common Lisp. since i live in Ukraine, fee could be surprisingly
> low as for USA/EU-living people. :)
I live in California and would be willing to work for the legal minimum
wage, something like $5something/hour. I have 15 years Lisp programming
experience. Would you be willing to undercut my wage-bid?
> i don't have much experience with Common Lisp
It sounds like you have less than one year Common Lisp experience,
is that a correct assessent? Accordingly:
Would you be willing to work for less than one dollar per hour,
in rough proportion to your lesser amount of experience than I have?
Do you have experience writing WebServer applictions using Common Lisp?
I do. I have an online demo I made when I first started CGI/CL
programming near the 2000/2001 boundary.
http://shell.rawbw.com/~rem/cgi-bin/topscript.cgi
Do you have a demo of your CGI/CL programming to compare to mine?
·······@Yahoo.Com (Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t) wrote in
······················@Yahoo.Com:
>> From: "Alex Mizrahi" <········@users.sourceforge.net>
>> i would like to have some remote, not so big, complex or urgent job
>> in Common Lisp. since i live in Ukraine, fee could be surprisingly
>> low as for USA/EU-living people. :)
>
> I live in California and would be willing to work for the legal
> minimum wage, something like $5something/hour. I have 15 years Lisp
> programming experience. Would you be willing to undercut my wage-bid?
Selling yourself so low, I think most people would (quite rightly)
believe that they'd get what they pay for. I do not suggest "I'm super
cheap" as a business model. I would suggest the newsgroup
misc.business.consulting if you want a serious education in business
models. If this is patronizing, well, I can't fathom how you could
acquire 15 years of practical Lisp experience and presently be willing
to work for $5/hour in the USA. It seems like your argument is either
completely disingenuous, or else, well, nobody in their right mind would
hire you.
I mean geez, I've made $8/hour registering voters, $12/hour
scrubbing floors, $15/hour painting apartments, $17/hour on heavy yard
work, and $20/hour gathering signatures when it's going well.
So where's my own business model? Honestly, I still don't have one. My
goal is to be paid to program on my own terms. But my terms don't quite
agree with what the game industry wants. Oh well, I plod along, using
the "day jobs" to fund what I actually want to be doing. At least in
programming and game design, I do what I want to do.
--
Cheers, www.indiegamedesign.com
Brandon Van Every Seattle, WA
"The pioneer is the one with the arrows in his back."
- anonymous entrepreneur
From: Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t
Subject: Re: can anyone offer Lisp job?
Date:
Message-ID: <REM-2005apr18-003@Yahoo.Com>
> From: "Brandon J. Van Every" <·····················@mycompanyname.com>
> Selling yourself so low,
No, I'm desperately *trying* to "sell myself", but so-far no companies
are willing to hire people in the USA to write computer software
because even at the legal minimum wage we're still more expensive than
people in India, so all computer-programming work is being farmed out
to shops in India.
I'm desperately hoping some company in the USA will realize that the
overhead in dealing with people who no spekka ingish widout badd aksent
and live so far away it takes an international long distance phone call
to talk to them live (as if that did any good with their accent), and
whose documentation is illegible due to lack of English skills, is just
not worth dealing with just to shave a couple dollars off the
already-low minimum wage here in the USA.
Or if nobody is willing to pay me to write the actual software,
somebody could hire me to re-do all the broken-English documentation
produced by the Indians who wrote the software, so that customers can
understand it instead of having to call customer support and talk to a
live Indian who is unintelligible and makes the customer abandon the
product and never again buy from that company.
> I think most people would (quite rightly) believe that they'd get
> what they pay for.
If that's your best opinion, then *you* are a fucking idiot who doesn't
know the difference between cost and value. I do good work, but I can't
legally work at a lower hourly wage than the people in India do.
Also if your remark is applied to the Indians, then it contradicts the
fact that companies are outsourcing their software work, and even their
customer-support work, to India, in order to pay even lower wages than
I ask. Why don't they consider the workers in India to be only worth
what they pay for, per your statement?? Why are Indians working for
below-minimum-wage considered a bargain whereas Americans such as
myself willing to work at minimum wage considered worthless?
> I do not suggest "I'm super cheap" as a business model.
Fuck you! That "business model" works fine for Indians. They're
currently getting all the jobs that Americans used to get. If that
business model works, why don't you suggest it?
> I can't fathom how you could acquire 15 years of practical Lisp
> experience and presently be willing to work for $5/hour in the USA.
I'd like to work for more, but no paying work whatsoever is available
during this recession, so I'm making the best offer I can legally make
in the hope of competing (if and when the recession ever lightens) with
the Indians who currently have all the jobs.
> It seems like your argument is either completely disingenuous, or
> else, well, nobody in their right mind would hire you.
You have a fucking stupid attitude. I'm telling the truth. I have 15
years experience programming in Lisp (and 7 years experience in other
programming languages). I'm very good at programming. Anyone who would
hire me to do the kind of work I am good at doing would get a true
bargain, good work at low cost. Somebody hiring me would be very much
in "right mind". It's the people like you, who conclude since I got
laid off during a recession and am still unemployed that I must be
worthless, who are not in their right mind.
> I've made $8/hour registering voters
That's basically a sales position, harassing random people to try to
get them to spend time doing something for you, right? Or do you just
sit waiting for people to come to you? I've never seen such paying work
offered around here. How do I apply?
> $12/hour scrubbing floors
> $15/hour painting apartments
> $17/hour on heavy yard work
I have a flattened spinal disk, so I probably couldn't do such work on
any regular basis, like more than an hour a day for the first two, or
ten minutes for the last. A few years ago when I was moving to a new
apartment, all by myself, no help from anyone, at the end I accidently
twisted my back and for the next three days I was unable to get out of
bed except by spending a full hour maneuvering over to hands and knees
whereupon I could finally crawl but not stand up.
> $20/hour gathering signatures when it's going well.
Definitely "sales" job, harassing people to spend their time for no
benefit to them. Is there any money for gathering signatures for a
petition to outlaw hiring overseas workers for less than the legal
minimum wage in the USA? I think I could "get into that".
·······@Yahoo.Com (Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t) writes:
> I'm desperately hoping some company in the USA will realize that the
> overhead in dealing with people who no spekka ingish widout badd aksent
> and live so far away it takes an international long distance phone call
> to talk to them live (as if that did any good with their accent), and
> whose documentation is illegible due to lack of English skills, is just
> not worth dealing with just to shave a couple dollars off the
> already-low minimum wage here in the USA.
>
> Or if nobody is willing to pay me to write the actual software,
> somebody could hire me to re-do all the broken-English documentation
> produced by the Indians who wrote the software, so that customers can
> understand it instead of having to call customer support and talk to a
> live Indian who is unintelligible and makes the customer abandon the
> product and never again buy from that company.
I don't think desperate hope is a rational approach to the problem of
outsourcing. Long-distance phone calls are not expensive, and my
limited recent experience with calling customer support in India
is that they were perfectly intelligable. As for actually being
able to help me, They were just as useful as the USA people.
(Which means of course, not very helpful at all. LINKSYS sucks.)
I haven't had the pleasure of reading any Indian-produced documentation
that I know of. I suspect that it would be hard to make it any worse
than most documentation that I've ever had to suffer through.
But if that's being outsourced to India, that means less opportunity
for a chance at someone writing good documentation here,
which has been known to happen on occasion.
Software-wise, I don't know how they're doing lately. I've heard
plenty of horror stories about both quality and team communication
over the last 5 years. But I expect that as they gain more people
with experience, this will improve. I see no reason to believe
that such a vast pool of extraordinatily motivated people will
not be able to compete just as well as us, globally, in English.
I haven't thought about why it is that te USA has enjoyed such
a lead in the software market. I assume it mostly has to do
with our education system, and the general leg-up from our
wealth compared to the less developed nations like India.
Japan tried and failed in the 1980s, perhaps due to cultural
differences. Now India is becoming serious competition.
I don't know exactly what we ought to do differently to continue
to dominate this market, but desperately hoping that the folks
in India won't improve their capabilities isn't the answer.
Christopher C. Stacy wrote:
> I don't think desperate hope is a rational approach to the problem of
> outsourcing. Long-distance phone calls are not expensive, and my
> limited recent experience with calling customer support in India
> is that they were perfectly intelligable. As for actually being
> able to help me, They were just as useful as the USA people.
> (Which means of course, not very helpful at all. LINKSYS sucks.)
Intelligible, no. I even find it hard to understand Indian
professors in Wisconsin (ok, I'm not native...).
Readable, yes (Amazon seems to have their email customer support
in India or Pakistan, judging by the name under the email).
> I haven't thought about why it is that te USA has enjoyed such
> a lead in the software market. I assume it mostly has to do
> with our education system, and the general leg-up from our
> wealth compared to the less developed nations like India.
> Japan tried and failed in the 1980s, perhaps due to cultural
> differences. Now India is becoming serious competition.
I've always wondered why most software is written in the USA. It
can't be the education, when I compare what typical BScs do for
math or CS in the US and in Europe. Maybe there is more customer
orientation and work attitude than in Europe (because there you
expect to get everything for free from the government, yuck!).
It's no surprise to me that now the US software landscape moves to
other countries.
> I don't know exactly what we ought to do differently to continue
> to dominate this market, but desperately hoping that the folks
> in India won't improve their capabilities isn't the answer.
We can tell people to buy "home-made" software in preference, or
try to build better software than the Indians. OTOH, they so much
outnumber us that that might be a losing proposition.
--
No man is good enough to govern another man without that other's
consent. -- Abraham Lincoln
> We can tell people to buy "home-made" software in preference, or
> try to build better software than the Indians. OTOH, they so much
> outnumber us that that might be a losing proposition.
Where is the boundary? Is software written by Ukrainians more or less
home-made than
one written by Indians?
Of the currently available Common Lisp implementations, are
those maintained by people of Russian, German or any other origin
better or worse than
those written in the USA by offsprings of pilgrims?
How do you distinguish great high quality software written in the USA
by the real programmers
from Indian/Russian/Romanian crap?
When an american programmer gets unemployed and replaced by a guy from
Hungary, is it because the hungarian guy is dumb and therefore cheap?
Or is it because the Hungarian guy is smarter, and it does not make
sense to pay even the same money to the american programmer just
because he is american?
Can you point me at some masterpieces of American Software so that I
understand what to pay for?
David Tolpin
On Mon, 18 Apr 2005 14:50:35 -0700, ············@gmail.com wrote:
> When an american programmer gets unemployed and replaced by a guy from
> Hungary, is it because the hungarian guy is dumb and therefore cheap? Or
> is it because the Hungarian guy is smarter, and it does not make sense
> to pay even the same money to the american programmer just because he is
> american?
It's not about brains, but about mobility. If people were as mobile as
their jobs? At least the playing field would be more equitable.
············@gmail.com wrote:
>>We can tell people to buy "home-made" software in preference, or
>>try to build better software than the Indians. OTOH, they so much
>>outnumber us that that might be a losing proposition.
>
>
>
> Where is the boundary? Is software written by Ukrainians more or less
> home-made than
> one written by Indians?
Probably not. I'm just saying like some people buy American cars
instead of Japanese ones, you can buy $YOUR-COUNTRY's software in
preference (if it's any good).
> Of the currently available Common Lisp implementations, are
> those maintained by people of Russian, German or any other origin
> better or worse than
> those written in the USA by offsprings of pilgrims?
I think the commercial ones (Franz, Xanalys) are US-based. For
Free Software the matter doesn't arise. In theory it all destroys
jobs, as you don't pay anybody.
> How do you distinguish great high quality software written in the USA
> by the real programmers
> from Indian/Russian/Romanian crap?
How do you distinguish crap from quality? Hm, dunno, I just do ;)
> When an american programmer gets unemployed and replaced by a guy from
> Hungary, is it because the hungarian guy is dumb and therefore cheap?
> Or is it because the Hungarian guy is smarter, and it does not make
> sense to pay even the same money to the american programmer just
> because he is american?
Maybe it's because things are cheaper in Hungary and therefore the
Hungarian guy can live on less money. Maybe it's because less
people import things from Hungary (that is changing), so their
currency might be cheap (does Hungary have the Euro? I'm SO
uninformed!).
It might not make sense to pay the US guy more money, no. In a
worldwide economy you might even consider that discriminating
against foreigners ;)
But I think there's nothing wrong with supporting local brands and
companies (and it reduces transportation of material goods all
over the globe).
> Can you point me at some masterpieces of American Software so that I
> understand what to pay for?
Buy whatever you like. The software I paid for is Mac OS X, and,
um, I think that's it so far. I think it's worth the money.
Well, in the past I bought a couple of games, too. These days I
mostly buy CDs (some), books (rarely) or just save my money for
other things like travel.
Note: I'm a proponent of global free trade, so I don't really care
where anything comes from as long as it's good, cheap, and created
without badly exploiting people and violating human rights.
--
No man is good enough to govern another man without that other's
consent. -- Abraham Lincoln
> > Where is the boundary? Is software written by Ukrainians more or
less
> > home-made than
> > one written by Indians?
>
> Probably not. I'm just saying like some people buy American cars
> instead of Japanese ones, you can buy $YOUR-COUNTRY's software in
> preference (if it's any good).
>
I had written or participated in writing several pieces of American
software, some of which you may well be using right now. I grew up in
Moscow, and live in Yerevan, Armenia now. Many of my friends
are behind 'american software', both good and bad; most programs are
written in America mostly because America is more tolerant to engineers
from all over the world, and welcomes innovation.
Things may change with the current movement against outsourcing; but it
will just mean that 'most software' will be written in a part of the
world which provides shelter to talented people no matter what country
they come from. And America will have to resort to using low-quality
domestic software much in the same way a part of americans uses
low-quality domesitc cars.
> > Of the currently available Common Lisp implementations, are
> > those maintained by people of Russian, German or any other origin
> > better or worse than
> > those written in the USA by offsprings of pilgrims?
>
> I think the commercial ones (Franz, Xanalys) are US-based. For
> Free Software the matter doesn't arise. In theory it all destroys
> jobs, as you don't pay anybody.
Franz is in California, right. Xanalysis (and LispWorks) are in the UK.
> Maybe it's because things are cheaper in Hungary and therefore the
> Hungarian guy can live on less money. Maybe it's because less
> people import things from Hungary (that is changing), so their
> currency might be cheap (does Hungary have the Euro? I'm SO
> uninformed!).
>
Yes, Hungary has Euro; and no, the hungarian guy does not charge less.
He just works better.
> Buy whatever you like. The software I paid for is Mac OS X, and,
> um, I think that's it so far. I think it's worth the money.
> Well, in the past I bought a couple of games, too. These days I
> mostly buy CDs (some), books (rarely) or just save my money for
> other things like travel.
>
I know of at least a half dozen significant components of Mac OS X
which are written by Russians,
Germans (and other non-americans). The Apple boxes are made in China.
There is not so much 'american code' in there, really.
············@gmail.com wrote:
>
>And America will have to resort to using low-quality
>domestic software much in the same way a part of americans uses
>low-quality domesitc cars.
>
>
Heh! My ass. See you in the future.
--
Cheers, www.indiegamedesign.com
Brandon Van Every Seattle, WA
"We live in a world of very bright people building
crappy software with total shit for tools and process."
- Ed McKenzie
·············@gmail.com" <············@gmail.com> writes:
>Yes, Hungary has Euro; and no, the hungarian guy does not charge less.
No, not yet:
http://www.ecb.int/bc/intro/html/map.en.html
According to http://www.ecb.int/ecb/enlargement/html/index.en.html:
"The new countries will adopt the euro only when they fulfil certain
economic criteria, namely, a high degree of price stability, a sound
fiscal situation, stable exchange rates and converged long-term
interest rates."
And of course, if they want to. Not all "old" EU member states have
adopted it (yet).
mkb.
·············@gmail.com" <············@gmail.com> writes:
> I know of at least a half dozen significant components of Mac OS X
> which are written by Russians,
> Germans (and other non-americans). The Apple boxes are made in China.
> There is not so much 'american code' in there, really.
MacOSX (NeXTSTEP) would not exist without French people such as
Jean-Marie Hulot (Interface Builder).
--
__Pascal Bourguignon__ http://www.informatimago.com/
You never feed me.
Perhaps I'll sleep on your face.
That will sure show you.
From: Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t
Subject: Re: can anyone offer Lisp job?
Date:
Message-ID: <REM-2005apr23-001@Yahoo.Com>
> From: ·············@gmail.com" <············@gmail.com>
> I had written or participated in writing several pieces of American
> software, some of which you may well be using right now.
If any software I'm using right now was written in part by you, I'd be
surprised, but let me check if or if not:
At the moment, I'm typing into McSink, running on a Macintosh Performa
600, which has System 7.5.5. Did you participate in writing any of
that software?
I'm connected via VersaTerm through a modem to a Unix shell account,
which runs FreeBAD Unix, and on that system I'm running lynx. Did you
participate in writing any of that software?
Lynx is connected to groups.google.co.in because that still has the old
version of Google Groups, not the new Beta broken version. Did you help
develop Google Groups software?
If all the answers above are 'no', then what software *did* you write
that you believe I might be using right now?
> most programs are written in America mostly because America is more
> tolerant to engineers from all over the world, ...
I thought the reason most software was written here in the USA was
because we had the best access to computers, systems, compilers, GUIs,
etc. needed to write such software efficiently, and because most
consumers of shrink-wrapped software were in the USA and it's easier to
distribute such software within a single country than via export.
Nowadays with the InterNet connecting nearly everywhere in the world,
and with lots of software distributed over the net rather than
shrink-wrapped, the reasons for mostly-USA production of software are
gone, so I expect the USA fraction to decrease now.
> America will have to resort to using low-quality domestic software
> much in the same way a part of americans uses low-quality domesitc
> cars.
Except for MicroSoft, which fails to solve the network security problem
in IE and Windows, I don't believe American software is especially bad
compared to software produced elsewhere in the world. Can you cite
specific evidence to support your claim of American software being
low-quality?
By the way, Thursday I learned of a new job-ad site, and looked for
Lisp jobs there, not a single listing *sigh*, then I checked for Java
jobs, a whole bunch *ohwell*.
Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t wrote:
>>From: ·············@gmail.com" <············@gmail.com>
>>I had written or participated in writing several pieces of American
>>software, some of which you may well be using right now.
>
>
> If any software I'm using right now was written in part by you, I'd be
> surprised, but let me check if or if not:
He said: "some of which you may..."
> which runs FreeBAD Unix, and on that system I'm running lynx. Did you
^^^
I hope this is an unintentional typo ;)
IMHO BSD is free and quite good.
> I thought the reason most software was written here in the USA was
> because we had the best access to computers, systems, compilers, GUIs,
> etc. needed to write such software efficiently, and because most
Hm. Most free software (which has probably the best development
tools) is available worldwide, and in many translations. Any
company abroad that wishes to develop and sell software can
probably also afford to buy the PCs it needs.
> consumers of shrink-wrapped software were in the USA and it's easier to
> distribute such software within a single country than via export.
What's hard about downloading software from $FOREIGN-COUNTRY, or
sending over a CD? People even import *cars*, and that's huge
lumps of metal.
For non-shrink-wrapped software maybe living in the USA is an
advantage, since communication tends to be better.
> Nowadays with the InterNet connecting nearly everywhere in the world,
> and with lots of software distributed over the net rather than
> shrink-wrapped, the reasons for mostly-USA production of software are
> gone, so I expect the USA fraction to decrease now.
Agreed.
>>America will have to resort to using low-quality domestic software
>>much in the same way a part of americans uses low-quality domesitc
>>cars.
>
>
> Except for MicroSoft, which fails to solve the network security problem
> in IE and Windows, I don't believe American software is especially bad
> compared to software produced elsewhere in the world. Can you cite
> specific evidence to support your claim of American software being
> low-quality?
No, it's not specifically bad. Maybe the 95% of all software
written in-house is bad, but that is going the outsourcing way,
anyway. Fast.
This is sad insofar, as this was one part I really like about the
States. In Europe I don't know if most companies employ any
programmers; I think it's mostly outsourced to software companies.
In the US every small bank (of which there seem to be *lots*)
employs its own programmers to write their software. Sure,
hopelessly inefficient, but that's changing. Maybe the US-IT
economy will go the way of the German one, soon, with loads of
IT-people on the street?
> By the way, Thursday I learned of a new job-ad site, and looked for
> Lisp jobs there, not a single listing *sigh*, then I checked for Java
> jobs, a whole bunch *ohwell*.
Life is a bitch, and then you die. Live with it ;)
--
No man is good enough to govern another man without that other's
consent. -- Abraham Lincoln
> In the US every small bank (of which there seem to be *lots*)
> employs its own programmers to write their software.
Umm, really? I write bank software targeted at small to mid-sized banks
for a living. I've never seen a bank with assets less than a billion or
three write their own software for anything but system administration
(and even that's extremely rare). Most small banks (10-100 million)
have no competent technical people anyway, if our customers are any
indication. Now, most of our market is in the south, so it may be
different on the west coast, or maybe the east coast, but I rather
doubt it.
In fact, the only bank I know of for sure that writes their own is
First American. Even Wells Fargo, I believe, runs 3rd party software.
Names like ITI, AFS, Precision, Nicola, Banker's Systems. There's quite
a sizable market for banking software.
And it's all windows based. And will be for at least another decade, in
all but the biggest banks.
·······@gmail.com writes:
> > In the US every small bank (of which there seem to be *lots*)
> > employs its own programmers to write their software.
>
> Umm, really? I write bank software targeted at small to mid-sized banks
> for a living. I've never seen a bank with assets less than a billion or
> three write their own software for anything but system administration
I have a friend who wrote banking software for a regional bank
here in Boston that had assets of much less than that, I think.
This was back when ATMs were a brand new thing.
·······@gmail.com writes:
> In fact, the only bank I know of for sure that writes their own is
> First American. Even Wells Fargo, I believe, runs 3rd party software.
Deutsche bank writes their own.
Their software unit is in Hyderabad, India.
·······@gmail.com wrote:
>> In the US every small bank (of which there seem to be *lots*)
>>employs its own programmers to write their software.
>
>
> Umm, really? I write bank software targeted at small to mid-sized banks
> for a living. I've never seen a bank with assets less than a billion or
> three write their own software for anything but system administration
> (and even that's extremely rare). Most small banks (10-100 million)
> have no competent technical people anyway, if our customers are any
> indication. Now, most of our market is in the south, so it may be
> different on the west coast, or maybe the east coast, but I rather
> doubt it.
I don't know the details, but some local banks (Wisconsin) had
some job postings last year, so I thought they'd do some in-house
programming.
Maybe it's just adapting the 3rd-party stuff.
> And it's all windows based. And will be for at least another decade, in
> all but the biggest banks.
Now that is shocking. And they deal with *my* money??
--
No man is good enough to govern another man without that other's
consent. -- Abraham Lincoln
From: Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t
Subject: Re: can anyone offer Lisp job?
Date:
Message-ID: <REM-2005apr27-002@Yahoo.Com>
> From: Ulrich Hobelmann <···········@web.de>
> > which runs FreeBAD Unix, and on that system I'm running lynx. Did you
> ^^^
> I hope this is an unintentional typo ;)
Not where you marked it, but two words later there are two keys
adjacent on the keyboard and I slipped and pressed the other of the two
causing a bad typo.
My point about many years ago only people in the USA were able to
produce software was because when a brand-new computer cost three
thousand dollars, and CD-ROM burner cost ten thousand dollars, most
third-world people couldn't afford to spend a year's total earnings
just to buy a computer or three years total earnings on a CD-ROM burner
on the hope they might be able to produce software to export somewhere.
Back in those days it cost two thousand dollars just for dumb ASCII
terminal such as a DataMedia 2500 or DEC VT-52 and the only GUI system
was on the Xerox Alto or Dorado which nobody could afford for personal
use.
> In the US every small bank (of which there seem to be *lots*) employs
> its own programmers to write their software.
Using COBOL, right? The only time I ever had a permanent full-time job
it was supposed to be to maintain a COBOL compiler that a small company
produced for its own private brand of computers, but after 5 months
they fired me because I'm disabled. A couple years later the department
of rehabilitation fixed me up with a volunteer job designing an
information-retrieval system that was going to be done in COBOL, but
just as I was finishing up the design, before any coding begun, I got a
paying job (FORTRAN for NMR relaxation to diagnose mobility of
molecular side-chains) and quit the volunteer job, so except for test
programs when I was debugging the COBOL compiler I never had a chance
to write any COBOL software.
From: Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t
Subject: Re: can anyone offer Lisp job?
Date:
Message-ID: <REM-2005aug12-004@Yahoo.Com>
> From: Ulrich Hobelmann <···········@web.de>
> even 10 years ago, computers were really affordable.
Only for people who have a lot more money than I have. I bought my
brand-new Macintosh Plus (1MB RAM, 20MB hard disk) in early 1990 when I
had a job at Stanford and could get the computer on an employee
discount ($1500 instead of $2500). I couldn't afford anything
newer/better until 1998 when I had a very temporary surplus of
disability income so that I could spend $300 on a used Macintosh
Performa 600 (8MB RAM, 160MB hard disk) and some more money on a
brand-new SupraExpress56 data/FAX modem and a brand-new SyQuest EzFlyer
(230MB per disk cartridge). Since mid-1998 I've been going deeper and
deeper into debt just to pay basic living expenses, and the MacPerforma
has allowed me to keep up with some stuff that should have helped me
get employment, but should-have and actually-does are a world apart
it seems.
Last Fall one of my Java instructors gave me his old junk laptop that
he was going to throw away or donate to eBay: 39MB RAM, 1500MB hard
disk, Java 1.3.1 and RedHat/Gnome Linux, no CD-ROM drive at all,
diskette drive doesn't work, modem stopped working when I was in the
middle of trying to download a GNU C library needed for something I
wanted to try, and I don't have the money to get the modem card fixed
or replaced. But GNU Emacs works fine, and I downloaded BeanShell
before the modem died, so I can use GNU Emacs to teach Lisp to
beginners and use GNU Emacs --> FIFO --> BeanShell to have a decent
editor->parse-eval-print IDE for Java in addition to elisp.
> The local university here provides COBOL classes, so there must
> still be some demand.
Maybe for young people who are accepted for internships, but for anyone
over 40 there's no way to ever get a job again. I have 22 years
progarmming experience, but NASA internship program rejected for all of
the two years I was qualified by my classes at DeAnza, so NASA doesn't
think 22 years is enough experience for even an internship if you're
over 40.
> Anyway, if I have to code with the devil, I choose Java for that.
With BeanShell, Java is a decent development environment. Have you
tried BeanShell yet? If the modem in my Laptop still worked I might
offer to give you a copy of my elisp functions and key bindings for
passing the current region to the FIFO, and the Java code to read from
the FIFO and parse-eval-print whatever it gets, inside try-catch block
to protect against those common syntax errors during development.
Or if you live near Sunnyvale you can come visit me and let me show you
the emacs file containing that code and you can manually transcribe it
to your computer.
> Seems to be the new COBOL, after all.
Nah, COBOL is like FORTRAN, fixed-length fixed-format records. Java
supports arbitrary-length strings as objects with handles,
pointy-structures/containers, etc. almost like Lisp.
On Fri, 12 Aug 2005 19:28:16 -0700, ·······@Yahoo.Com (Robert Maas,
see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t) wrote:
>newer/better until 1998 when I had a very temporary surplus of
>disability income so that I could spend $300 on a used Macintosh
Disability income? You're disabled? That might explain why you can't
get a job. Most employers only want to hire people they can fire.
Ever since the ADA became law, most employers have been scared to hire
disabled people because they were afraid the ADA would make it
impossible to fire them. Of course big companies are forced to hire
token disabled people, but most jobs are offered by small companies.
You might have to start a business as the only way to earn money to
supplement your disability income. You could write lots of popular
"freeware" programs, and set up a website for people to download them.
Then, when your programs become popular, you could start charging a
monthly membership fee, such as $1 per month, from people who want to
download your stuff. You then would just need 10,000 members to earn
more than most programmers. People would want to retain their
membership because you would keep releasing newer versions of your
programs. And that's just one of thousands of possible business
plans you might want to consider. But in any case the whole idea of
looking for a job if you're disabled is probably just a waste of time,
and in your case seems to be a waste of a lot of years. If those
years had been spent day and night developing a new business, your
situation might be very different now.
From: Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t
Subject: ADA and my own business (was: can anyone offer Lisp job?)
Date:
Message-ID: <REM-2005aug18-005@Yahoo.Com>
> From: jbo <····@not-for-email.com>
> Disability income? You're disabled? That might explain why you
> can't get a job. Most employers only want to hire people they can
> fire. .. ADA ...
I don't understand how that fact I'm receiving disability income, which
I do not mention in my resume or other communication in response to job
ad, nor in face-to-face meetings such as the fellow who has an office
near the post office annex who is interested in getting his C++
software converted to run under CGI. Perhaps you can explain how
potential employers can somehow read my mind to know that I'm covered
under the ADA.
> You might have to start a business as the only way to earn money to
> supplement your disability income.
That's a good idea, and in fact I've been trying that for more than 30
years, but I have yet to find my first customer. In the most recent
attempts, my use of the term "Maas Wireless-Web Services" in various
places somehow got into some advertising-mail database and I started
getting snail-mail ads for various products that a regular company
might need, such as toner/paper for copier/FAX, staples, etc., none of
which are of any use to me, and offers of business credit card with up
to $10,000 credit limit, which I don't need until such time as I really
have a business that needs aid with cashflow, but it showed that
despite lack of any business license or facilities or employess or
cashflow somehow my catchy name was assumed to be a legitimate business
by some marketing staff.
> You could write lots of popular "freeware" programs, and set up a
> website for people to download them.
Unfortunately I don't have a native-code compiler for my Macintosh, so
I can't really write freeware programs for it, and I don't have access
at all to MS-Windows, so I can't write anything at all for it, and I
doubt there's much market for freeware that runs on FreeBSD Unix, the
only system where I have access to a native-compiler and ability to
upload my code to a Web site. I would actually rather write server-side
software, whereby I can provide a free demo on my Web site and anyone
with any kind of computer whatsoever with a Web browser can try my
software before making a purchase. What do you think of that idea?
> Then, when your programs become popular, you could start charging a
> monthly membership fee, such as $1 per month, from people who want to
> download your stuff.
I'm not sure that would be allowed on this Unix shell machine where I
have only an individual personal account. I think I'd need to upgrade
to a more expensive business account before I could directly charge
over the net. When I have fewer than about 30 customers paying $1/month
each, I'd actually lose money paying extra for the business account and
not getting enough payments to make cover that extra cost.
From: Robert Uhl
Subject: Re: ADA and my own business
Date:
Message-ID: <m34q9mijfq.fsf@4dv.net>
·······@Yahoo.Com (Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t) writes:
>
> Unfortunately I don't have a native-code compiler for my Macintosh, so
> I can't really write freeware programs for it, and I don't have access
> at all to MS-Windows, so I can't write anything at all for it, and I
> doubt there's much market for freeware that runs on FreeBSD Unix, the
> only system where I have access to a native-compiler and ability to
> upload my code to a Web site. I would actually rather write
> server-side software, whereby I can provide a free demo on my Web site
> and anyone with any kind of computer whatsoever with a Web browser can
> try my software before making a purchase. What do you think of that
> idea?
It makes perfect sense. I've been to your site and checked out your
demos, and to be honest I couldn't really follow them very well.
Perhaps a tutorial section would have been useful?
As for a Classic Mac compiler--I might be able to dig up an old copy of
Think C/C++...
--
Robert Uhl <http://public.xdi.org/=ruhl>
Y'see the _real_ reason infantry is the only arm that can take _and_
hold ground is that it's the only one that can't run away.
--Rupert Boleyn
On Fri, 19 Aug 2005 00:28:57 -0600, Robert Uhl wrote:
> ·······@Yahoo.Com (Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t) writes:
>>
>> Unfortunately I don't have a native-code compiler for my Macintosh, so
>> I can't really write freeware programs for it, and I don't have access
>> at all to MS-Windows, so I can't write anything at all for it, and I
>> doubt there's much market for freeware that runs on FreeBSD Unix, the
>> only system where I have access to a native-compiler and ability to
>> upload my code to a Web site. I would actually rather write
>> server-side software, whereby I can provide a free demo on my Web site
>> and anyone with any kind of computer whatsoever with a Web browser can
>> try my software before making a purchase. What do you think of that
>> idea?
>
> It makes perfect sense. I've been to your site and checked out your
> demos, and to be honest I couldn't really follow them very well.
> Perhaps a tutorial section would have been useful?
>
> As for a Classic Mac compiler--I might be able to dig up an old copy of
> Think C/C++...
MPW is available as a free download now.
<http://developer.apple.com/tools/mpw-tools/>
Robert Swindells
From: [Invalid-From-Line]
Subject: Re: ADA and my own business (was: can anyone offer Lisp job?)
Date:
Message-ID: <874q9m1ucw.fsf@kafka.homenet>
·······@Yahoo.Com (Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t) writes:
> Unfortunately I don't have a native-code compiler for my Macintosh, so
> I can't really write freeware programs for it, and I don't have access
> at all to MS-Windows, so I can't write anything at all for it, and I
> doubt there's much market for freeware that runs on FreeBSD Unix
The FreeBSD access is only on your shell account ?
From: Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t
Subject: Re: ADA and my own business (was: can anyone offer Lisp job?)
Date:
Message-ID: <REM-2005aug20-009@Yahoo.Com>
> From: <······@bigpond.net.au>
> The FreeBSD access is only on your shell account ?
Yes, that's correct. Perhaps this file will help answer most of the
rest of your questions of that nature:
http://www.rawbw.com/~rem/NewPub/mySituation.html
Feel free to ask about anything not covered there.
·······@Yahoo.Com (Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t) writes:
> Unfortunately I don't have a native-code compiler for my Macintosh, so
> I can't really write freeware programs for it,
Again complaining! Just stop it!
On Macintosh, today you won't sell anything for MacOS, only for
MacOSX. And while it's unix, MacOSX users will be expecting more than
a pure unix program, so you'll need to target it specifically.
There's a smaller market for Macintosh than for MS-Windows, but
there's much more competition in the MS-Windows market, so you might
still want to address the Macintosh rather than MS-Windows.
Now, get that $10,000 credit card, order a new Macintosh (nowadays
they all can run and are delivered with MacOSX), download the
developer documentation from www.apple.com, and start writting and
selling useful MacOSX programs!
--
__Pascal Bourguignon__ http://www.informatimago.com/
This is a signature virus. Add me to your signature and help me to live
Pascal Bourguignon <····@mouse-potato.com> writes:
> ·······@Yahoo.Com (Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t) writes:
> > Unfortunately I don't have a native-code compiler for my Macintosh, so
> > I can't really write freeware programs for it,
>
> Again complaining! Just stop it!
>
> On Macintosh, today you won't sell anything for MacOS, only for
> MacOSX. And while it's unix, MacOSX users will be expecting more than
> a pure unix program, so you'll need to target it specifically.
>
> There's a smaller market for Macintosh than for MS-Windows, but
> there's much more competition in the MS-Windows market, so you might
> still want to address the Macintosh rather than MS-Windows.
>
>
> Now, get that $10,000 credit card, order a new Macintosh (nowadays
> they all can run and are delivered with MacOSX), download the
> developer documentation from www.apple.com, and start writting and
> selling useful MacOSX programs!
Or go on ebay and get a G4 w/ OSX for $800 or so. Its not so frigging
hard to work up a computer these days.
Gregm
In article <·················@Yahoo.Com>,
·······@Yahoo.Com (Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t) wrote:
> > From: jbo <····@not-for-email.com>
> > Disability income? You're disabled? That might explain why you
> > can't get a job. Most employers only want to hire people they can
> > fire. .. ADA ...
>
> I don't understand how that fact I'm receiving disability income, which
> I do not mention in my resume or other communication in response to job
> ad, nor in face-to-face meetings such as the fellow who has an office
> near the post office annex who is interested in getting his C++
> software converted to run under CGI. Perhaps you can explain how
> potential employers can somehow read my mind to know that I'm covered
> under the ADA.
You mean aside from the fact that you advertise it on usenet? I
normally use the slogan "Google is your friend," but you seem to be an
exception. Searching Google Groups for "Robert Maas" returns 14,000
hits. The top hits are all from groups like alt.support.lonlieness,
alt.support.depression and alt.support.social-phobia.
Similar results come up for things like "Robert Maas disability" and
"Robert Maas mentally ill".
Your disabilities appear to be quite thoroughly chronicled.
rg
Ron Garret <·········@flownet.com> writes:
> Searching Google Groups for "Robert Maas" returns 14,000
> hits. The top hits are all from groups like alt.support.lonlieness,
> alt.support.depression and alt.support.social-phobia.
>
> Similar results come up for things like "Robert Maas disability" and
> "Robert Maas mentally ill".
>
> Your disabilities appear to be quite thoroughly chronicled.
And more than a little alarming!
Joe Marshall <···@ccs.neu.edu> writes:
> > Your disabilities appear to be quite thoroughly chronicled.
>
> And more than a little alarming!
From http://groups.google.com.au/group/alt.support.shyness/browse_frm/thread/5699b20e7ebbac40/e7dd6a052aa06f88?lnk=st&q=Robert+Maas+mentally+ill&rnum=3&hl=en#e7dd6a052aa06f88
" He's already travelled from his home city of Mt View, California to Las Vegas to
confront and 'abduct' (the word he uses) one of the women hes already
stalked. Just on where she'd talked to him on where she hung out, ate
out publicly and such, he had enough information to go there and try
and confront her, luckily, she saw him in time and RAN. I personally
hold grave fears for the next woman he tries to confront which is why I
and a few others that have been privy to his actions, are trying to let
as many people know of this person."
From: Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t
Subject: Re: ADA and my own business
Date:
Message-ID: <REM-2005aug21-001@Yahoo.Com>
> From: <······@bigpond.net.au>
> ... to Las Vegas to confront and 'abduct' ...
What you've done here is to re-post serious libel that was originally
posted by a woman named Kaitlin O'Connor who was stalking me and
harassing me in late 2000 and early 2001. Kaitlin was getting her kicks
interfering with my relations with other women, but you are posting
libel to interfere with my attempt to get employment, which is an
actionable offense with actual damages being any income I would have
gotten if I were employed. It would be to your advantage to immediately
contact Google and have your libelous message deleted from their
archive.
·······@Yahoo.Com (Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t) writes:
>> From: <······@bigpond.net.au>
>> ... to Las Vegas to confront and 'abduct' ...
>
> What you've done here is to re-post serious libel that was originally
> posted by a woman named Kaitlin O'Connor who was stalking me and
> harassing me in late 2000 and early 2001. Kaitlin was getting her kicks
> interfering with my relations with other women, but you are posting
> libel to interfere with my attempt to get employment, which is an
> actionable offense with actual damages being any income I would have
> gotten if I were employed.
But if you've been unable to secure a job for 13 years, and are
probably unfit to secure any job for the forseable future, wouldn't
the actual damages be exactly $0?
> It would be to your advantage to immediately
> contact Google and have your libelous message deleted from their
> archive.
--
"I have challenged the entire quality assurance team to a Bat-Leth
contest. They will not concern us again."
Pascal Bourguignon wrote:
> ·······@Yahoo.Com (Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t) writes:
> >> From: <······@bigpond.net.au>
> >> ... to Las Vegas to confront and 'abduct' ...
> >
> > What you've done here is to re-post serious libel that was originally
> > posted by a woman named Kaitlin O'Connor who was stalking me and
> > harassing me in late 2000 and early 2001. Kaitlin was getting her kicks
> > interfering with my relations with other women, but you are posting
> > libel to interfere with my attempt to get employment, which is an
> > actionable offense with actual damages being any income I would have
> > gotten if I were employed.
>
> But if you've been unable to secure a job for 13 years, and are
> probably unfit to secure any job for the forseable future, wouldn't
> the actual damages be exactly $0?
>
>
> > It would be to your advantage to immediately
> > contact Google and have your libelous message deleted from their
> > archive.
>
> --
> "I have challenged the entire quality assurance team to a Bat-Leth
> contest. They will not concern us again."
Persons with debilitating mental disabilities shouldn't write software.
·········@gmail.com writes:
> Pascal Bourguignon wrote:
> > ·······@Yahoo.Com (Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t) writes:
> > >> From: <······@bigpond.net.au>
> > >> ... to Las Vegas to confront and 'abduct' ...
> > >
> > > What you've done here is to re-post serious libel that was originally
> > > posted by a woman named Kaitlin O'Connor who was stalking me and
> > > harassing me in late 2000 and early 2001. Kaitlin was getting her kicks
> > > interfering with my relations with other women, but you are posting
> > > libel to interfere with my attempt to get employment, which is an
> > > actionable offense with actual damages being any income I would have
> > > gotten if I were employed.
> >
> > But if you've been unable to secure a job for 13 years, and are
> > probably unfit to secure any job for the forseable future, wouldn't
> > the actual damages be exactly $0?
> >
> >
> > > It would be to your advantage to immediately
> > > contact Google and have your libelous message deleted from their
> > > archive.
> >
> > --
> > "I have challenged the entire quality assurance team to a Bat-Leth
> > contest. They will not concern us again."
>
> Persons with debilitating mental disabilities shouldn't write software.
>
Nonsense, there are whole families of languages written by people with
debilitating mental disabilities for people with debilitating mental
disabilities. It seems these people all work well with a visual
metaphor as all the languages start with Visual ....... (it probably
has something to do with hallucinations).
Tim
--
Tim Cross
The e-mail address on this message is FALSE (obviously!). My real e-mail is
to a company in Australia called rapttech and my login is tcross - if you
really need to send mail, you should be able to work it out!
Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t wrote:
>> You might have to start a business as the only way to earn money to
>> supplement your disability income.
>
> That's a good idea, and in fact I've been trying that for more than 30
> years, but I have yet to find my first customer. In the most recent
Hm, maybe you didn't have anything to offer? Maybe you didn't do *any*
advertising, not even word-of-mouth in your local community?
>> You could write lots of popular "freeware" programs, and set up a
>> website for people to download them.
>
> Unfortunately I don't have a native-code compiler for my Macintosh, so
> I can't really write freeware programs for it, and I don't have access
> at all to MS-Windows, so I can't write anything at all for it, and I
> doubt there's much market for freeware that runs on FreeBSD Unix, the
> only system where I have access to a native-compiler and ability to
> upload my code to a Web site. I would actually rather write server-side
> software, whereby I can provide a free demo on my Web site and anyone
> with any kind of computer whatsoever with a Web browser can try my
> software before making a purchase. What do you think of that idea?
Besides Mac OS 9- being outdated, as Pascal pointed out, these are more
excuses. If you need a compiler, get one, work to pay for one. If you
need a more widely used system, work to buy one.
And didn't you say you have RedHat running on a machine?
Concerning the web stuff: sure, it's an easy way to provide demos to
people. But make sure you can test it on a modern browser, and make
sure it doesn't suck.
>> Then, when your programs become popular, you could start charging a
>> monthly membership fee, such as $1 per month, from people who want to
>> download your stuff.
>
> I'm not sure that would be allowed on this Unix shell machine where I
> have only an individual personal account. I think I'd need to upgrade
> to a more expensive business account before I could directly charge
> over the net. When I have fewer than about 30 customers paying $1/month
> each, I'd actually lose money paying extra for the business account and
> not getting enough payments to make cover that extra cost.
Then don't use your Unix account. Get a full server for maybe $20-40
(don't know exact cost) and cancel your shell account if they don't even
give you a web server or permission to run your own services.
And if you can't find 30 paying customers, you shouldn't be in that
business, really.
--
I believe in Karma. That means I can do bad things to people
all day long and I assume they deserve it.
Dogbert
jbo <···@not-for-email.com> writes:
> On Fri, 12 Aug 2005 19:28:16 -0700, ·······@Yahoo.Com (Robert Maas,
> see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t) wrote:
>
>>newer/better until 1998 when I had a very temporary surplus of
>>disability income so that I could spend $300 on a used Macintosh
>
> Disability income? You're disabled? That might explain why you can't
> get a job.
(kicking myself for joining this conversation....)
I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that Robert has a mental
disability. Being on disability income exacerbates the problem: SSDI
isn't enough to live on, and adding that kind of stress to a mental
disability just makes things worse. Unfortunately, the science of
treating brain disorders is still in its infancy.
Robert seems to be quite bright, but it is extremely difficult to rely
just on intelligence if there are other problems. I sympathise, but I
really can't help. I've offered suggestions in the past, so I won't
repeat them. However, I have a new suggestion if indeed it is a
mental disability: you *need* to overcome the disability first.
Aggressively treat it. Train your intelligence on *that* problem.
This isn't a very useful suggestion, I'm afraid. You've probably been
working on it for the past 30 years, so having yet another person
suggest won't be of much help.
I'll also point out that while comp.lang.lisp is full of smart people,
I don't think their expertise lies in group therapy.
I'm going to shut up and go back to kicking myself now.
~jrm
From: Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t
Subject: Re: can anyone offer Lisp job?
Date:
Message-ID: <REM-2005aug20-010@Yahoo.Com>
> From: Joe Marshall <····@ccs.neu.edu>
> you *need* to overcome the disability first. Aggressively treat it.
Before my disabilities can be treated, they have to be diagnosed,
right? I've been trying for the past ten years to get them diagnosed,
but haven't been able to find any agency to help me get that done.
Perhaps you know of some agency in this area that I haven't tried yet?
·······@Yahoo.Com (Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t) writes:
> Before my disabilities can be treated, they have to be diagnosed,
> right? I've been trying for the past ten years to get them diagnosed,
> but haven't been able to find any agency to help me get that done.
What diagnosis did they duse on your ADA forms ?
From: Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t
Subject: "ADA forms" - What? (was: can anyone offer Lisp job?)
Date:
Message-ID: <REM-2005aug22-011@Yahoo.Com>
> From: <······@bigpond.net.au>
> > Before my disabilities can be treated, they have to be diagnosed,
> > right? I've been trying for the past ten years to get them diagnosed,
> > but haven't been able to find any agency to help me get that done.
> What diagnosis did they duse on your ADA forms ?
I have no idea what you mean by "ADA forms" in this context.
Please clarify that term so I can understand your question.
·······@Yahoo.Com (Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t) writes:
> > > but haven't been able to find any agency to help me get that done.
> > What diagnosis did they duse on your ADA forms ?
>
> I have no idea what you mean by "ADA forms" in this context.
> Please clarify that term so I can understand your question.
You indicated earlier that because of your mental disability, you have
been given disability support by the government.
There must have been a diagnosis on the documentation that you had
to submit to qualify for the disability payments and benefits.
--
Seek simplicity and mistrust it.
Alfred Whitehead
A witty saying proves nothing.
Voltaire
From: Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t
Subject: Re: "ADA forms" - What? (was: can anyone offer Lisp job?)
Date:
Message-ID: <REM-2005aug24-003@Yahoo.Com>
> From: <······@bigpond.net.au>
> > > > but haven't been able to find any agency to help me get that done.
> > > What diagnosis did they duse on your ADA forms ?
> > I have no idea what you mean by "ADA forms" in this context.
> > Please clarify that term so I can understand your question.
> You indicated earlier that because of your mental disability, you have
> been given disability support by the government.
ADA and SSI/SSDI are completely different things related to disability.
ADA is a law to protect people who currently have jobs, so they can't
be fired just because the boss learns they have some disability that
doesn't adversely affect job performance, and requiring employers to
provide reasonable accomodation to prevent disability from adversely
affecting job performance.
SSDI/SSI is a stipend paid to disabled people who are not employed.
(In a rare case a disabled person might have a job that pays less than
$800/month gross, in which a person might still qualify for some SSI to
bring the total gross income up to the SSI limit, so for such a person
both ADA and SSI might apply, but they'd apply in totally different
ways.)
No, I didn't write what you claimed I wrote. You are probably mixing up
what I've written (that I'm getting SSDI/SSI because I'm disabled) and
what other people have mis-written about my situation (that I am
mentally disabled or mentally ill), and somehow concluding that I'm
getting SSDI/SSI because of what those people mis-wrote about me. If
you have a Google Groups URL for what you say I wrote, we could look at
it to see if I said anything that would lead you to your false
conclusion. But for now, in absense of any such cite, here's what
really happened:
- In 1974 I got my only full-time permanent job. Five months later,
before the six-month review, I was fired from that job. I had been
doing OK, adding features to copy/rename utility to practice their
assembly language for their own line of 24-bit minicomputers using
Hollerith cards for input and Diablo disk drives for permanent storage
of copies of what was on the cards, and then fixing bugs in their COBOL
compiler by reading the description of what was going wrong, writing
COBOL code to excite the bug to verify it, then going into the
assembly-language for the COBOL compiler to track down the cause of the
bug and fixing it. I did that for one or two COBOL compiler bugs just
before being fired. My boss told me that I was fired because I had been
hired to act as the primary responsible person for maintaining the
COBOL compiler, and he didn't think I'd be capable of handling that
level of responsibility. I disagreed in my mind, but was too shy and
nonviolent to punch him in the face and call him the fucking idiot he
was. So I quietly packed my stuff from my office and went to the
unemployment office to file my claim for unemployment benefits. I was
refused benefits because my employer had told the state employment
office that I was fired because I'm disabled, which was perfectly legal
at that time. I was advised to apply for ATD (Aid To Disabled) instead,
and I did, and got it, so apparently I really was officially disabled
in the eyes of the State of California. During the time I was receiving
State ATD, it was converted to Federal SSI.
- In early 1976 the Department of Rehabilitation set me up with a
volunteer job wherein I had to commute all the way to San Francisco
each workday.
- A few months into that job, in late 1976, I got a temporary job at
the NMR (Nuclear Magnetic Resonance) lab at Stanford. When I informed
the Department of Rehabilitation that I was quitting their volunteer
job because I had now found a paying job, they sent me a nice letter
congratulating me for being able to work despite disability.
- I continued to be employed at various jobs at Stanford until 1991
when I became laid off due to lack of funds. (All the other workers in
the IMSSS were laid off at the same time, except my supervisor who was
laid off one year later, and the founder of IMSSS who retired shortly
after that, and his secretary and admin staff who probably lost their
jobs when he retired.) Because it had been so long since I had been on
disability, I forgot about being classified by the State as disabled,
and applied for unemployment benefits, and was granted them.
- After a few years of unemployment, there was a time when I was
seeking treatment for my severe shyness, but Kaiser was denying me
services because I couldn't finish a psychological test that required
me to answer lots of questions about what I do with my friends (which I
don't have any) etc., lots of questions about life experiences that
I've never had but still somehow I'm supposed to select from multiple
choice what I actually did when such ficticious situations actually
happened, which in fact had never even once in my whole life happened
to me, like when your friend committed a crime did you keep quiet or
tell them not to do it or report them to the police, which was
impossible for me to answer. So many questions were unanswerable that
it was impossible to finish the test required to receive treatment to
overcome shyness enough to ever have such life experiences. (Catch22?)
In the middle of all that, a social worker referred me to Mission
Valley Employment which promised to help me find employment, but only
if I suffer a disability. Well my extreme shyness, so bad that I
couldn't even finish a psychological profile, was the obvious
disability, so I applied on that basis. They made me go through intake
and orientation, and finally when it was time for them to provide me
with services they refused because there's no state funding available
for that particular disability.
- But that got me thinking. There were several other disabilities I've
suffered all my life, both physical (such as poor muscle coordination)
and mental (learning disabilties, and emotional problems such as
loneliness, mostly). Most of the time I have great trouble remembering
more than about one or two items in a category. But once in a while
I have moments where my memory seems to work really well just briefly.
During one of these moments (lasting perhaps an hour) I remembered appx.
fourty different things I've had trouble with most of my life that
"normal" people seem to take for granted, hence might qualify as
disabilities in my case, and before my moment of good-memory went away
I had the presence of mind to transcribe them into a computer file.
(Over the years since then I've occasionally remembered a few more, so
the list of my self-described disabilities has grown to where now it's
42 physical and 23 mental.) I presented the original list of appx. 40
total to Mission Valley Employment, and they said none of my other
disabilties qualify for state funding either, so the whole excercise
was a waste except for my own self-knowledge.
- Then we got a notice in the mail: AFDC recipients who are not
disabled will suffer a reduction of their benefits, whereas those who
are disabled will receive an increase in their benefits. Anyone
claiming to be disabled needed to have their disability approved by the
Department of Rehabilitation. Well I was already listed with them as
disabled frm 1974, so I inquired, but was told all their records from
that far ago have been deleted, so they no longer have any record of my
past disability, and I'll have to apply from scratch. So I applied,
including my self-description of appx. 40 disabilities, was sent to a
psychiatrist to evaluate me, and was approved, so then I passed the
confirmation info to our AFDC eligibility worker, and we got the
increase in AFDC instead of the decrease.
- Then somebody suggested that with my confirmed disability I might be
able to get SSI and/or SSDI, so I applied for them, providing the
Social Security office with both my self-description of 40+
disabilities and the fact that the Department of Rehabilitation had
already approved my disability, and I was granted SSDI and SSI too.
- When I applied for help from an agency (Project Hired) that helps
disabled people to get jobs, they required confirmation of my
disability, so I went to Social Security to request that confirmation,
but all they would supply was confirmation of my SSDI and SSI income.
The refused to provide any information whatsoever about which of my
many disabilities was the primary qualification(s) for my SSDI and SSI
benefits.
> There must have been a diagnosis on the documentation that you had to
> submit to qualify for the disability payments and benefits.
No, I didn't submit any diagnosis because at that time (1995) I hadn't
yet been able to get any diagnosis. (Two of my physical disabilties
were diagnosed in 1969 and 1986 respectively, but I was unable to get
copies of those diagnoses to provide to Social Security. My shyness was
half-diagnosed by Kaiser appx. 1998, as ambiguously SP or APD, but
since they don't provide treatment for either condition, they refused
to finish the diagnosis to figure out which of the two it was. Kaiser
refused to provide me with any treatment for any emotional problems
until 1999 when somebody on the InterNet helped me overcome some of my
shyness, and then two months after they started me in a group the
Medi-Cal/Kaiser contract was terminated so I was once again unable to
get any treatment.) I have no idea whether Social Security contacted
Department of Rehabilitation and got some diagnosis from them, and if
so whatever diagnosis it might have been because they never told me of
any diagnosis for any of my various disabilities so I'm not aware they
ever did diagnose any of my disabilities, or whether Social Security
just decided if my 40+ self-described disabilities are good enough for
DR, without any diagnosis, then they're good enough for SSA, or what.
A year or two ago my loneliness was finally diagnosed (more like
labeled or pidgenholed) as "Dysthymia". But there's no reasonable
treatment, that's covered by State or Federal funding, available for
that condition.
Anyway, thanks for explaining your mis-understanding of my situation
regarding SSDI/SSI so that I could correct you.
jbo wrote:
> Disability income? You're disabled? That might explain why you can't
> get a job. Most employers only want to hire people they can fire.
> Ever since the ADA became law, most employers have been scared to hire
> disabled people because they were afraid the ADA would make it
> impossible to fire them. Of course big companies are forced to hire
> token disabled people, but most jobs are offered by small companies.
Why is it illegal to sell milk past its expiration date, but mentally
disturbed people can get away with concealing their condition from the
potential employer? I'd hate to learn that the autopilot or navigation
software in a plane I'm flying in was contributed to by a mentally
disturbed individual.
·········@gmail.com writes:
> mentally disturbed people can get away with concealing their
> condition from the potential employer?
There are many prejudices and because of them many people don't
get a job even if there are fully qualified when they conceal
everything.
BTW the employer has to do qualification tests anyway and there is
no problem in not hiring people that failed these tests.
> I'd hate to learn that the autopilot or navigation software in a
> plane I'm flying in was contributed to by a mentally disturbed
> individual.
I'd hate to learn that these software was contributed by anyone
but the very best individuals in this field (and if the mentally
disturbed passes any qualification tests then i would've no
problem with him).
--
Stefan.
Stefan Nobis wrote:
> ·········@gmail.com writes:
>
>
>>mentally disturbed people can get away with concealing their
>>condition from the potential employer?
>
>
> There are many prejudices and because of them many people don't
> get a job even if there are fully qualified when they conceal
> everything.
>
> BTW the employer has to do qualification tests anyway and there is
> no problem in not hiring people that failed these tests.
>
>
>>I'd hate to learn that the autopilot or navigation software in a
>>plane I'm flying in was contributed to by a mentally disturbed
>>individual.
>
>
> I'd hate to learn that these software was contributed by anyone
> but the very best individuals in this field (and if the mentally
> disturbed passes any qualification tests then i would've no
> problem with him).
Someone with high-functioning obsessive-compulsive disorder or autism
might actually be better for programming (or QA'ing) critical and
persnickety pieces of software such as flight control.
paul
Paul Wallich <··@panix.com> wrote:
>Someone with high-functioning obsessive-compulsive disorder or autism
>might actually be better for programming (or QA'ing) critical and
>persnickety pieces of software such as flight control.
You mean one of those who can count a box of matches in a couple
seconds? Like, if they were obsessed with the correctness of the
flight control software? But they don't really care that the software
works correctly, do they, they only want to satisfy a certain kind
of compulsion. What if they only find one aspect of the software
"interesting"? What if they change certain functionality because
it would make the whole more "beautiful" (but leads to the plane
breaking apart in 10000m altitude)? Do you think they could be hold
responsible when they have no ability of judgement in the first
place?
mkb.
Matthias Buelow wrote:
> Paul Wallich <··@panix.com> wrote:
>
> >Someone with high-functioning obsessive-compulsive disorder or autism
> >might actually be better for programming (or QA'ing) critical and
> >persnickety pieces of software such as flight control.
>
> You mean one of those who can count a box of matches in a couple
> seconds? Like, if they were obsessed with the correctness of the
> flight control software? But they don't really care that the software
> works correctly, do they, they only want to satisfy a certain kind
> of compulsion.
Paul says "high-functioning". Have you read Temple Grandin's
"Thinking in Pictures"? If not, it'll give you a different
perspective to autism than the typical "Rainman" figure.
--shiro
Matthias Buelow <···@incubus.de> wrote:
> Paul Wallich <··@panix.com> wrote:
> >Someone with high-functioning obsessive-compulsive disorder or autism
> >might actually be better for programming (or QA'ing) critical and
> >persnickety pieces of software such as flight control.
>
> You mean one of those who can count a box of matches in a couple
> seconds? Like, if they were obsessed with the correctness of the
> flight control software? But they don't really care that the software
> works correctly, do they, they only want to satisfy a certain kind
> of compulsion. What if they only find one aspect of the software
> "interesting"? What if they change certain functionality because
> it would make the whole more "beautiful" (but leads to the plane
> breaking apart in 10000m altitude)? Do you think they could be hold
> responsible when they have no ability of judgement in the first
> place?
He said "high functioning". I don't think that's consistent with "no
ability of judgement".
A high functioning OCD or autistic would be odd/eccentric, not Rain Man.
Michael
On 2005-08-22, ·········@gmail.com <·········@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Why is it illegal to sell milk past its expiration date, but mentally
> disturbed people can get away with concealing their condition from the
> potential employer? I'd hate to learn that the autopilot or navigation
Because you don't pour manic depressives on your corn flakes?
> software in a plane I'm flying in was contributed to by a mentally
> disturbed individual.
I'd want it done by someone who could do it well.
--
"THERE'S NO SOLUTION - SO THERE'S NO PROBLEM"
Xar Richovic in alt.support.depression.manic.moderated
Curt <·····@free.fr> writes:
>> software in a plane I'm flying in was contributed to by a mentally
>> disturbed individual.
>
> I'd want it done by someone who could do it well.
I'd want it done by someone who flies a lot on these planes.
--
"Remember, Information is not knowledge; Knowledge is not Wisdom;
Wisdom is not truth; Truth is not beauty; Beauty is not love;
Love is not music; Music is the best." -- Frank Zappa
·········@gmail.com writes:
> Why is it illegal to sell milk past its expiration date, but mentally
> disturbed people can get away with concealing their condition from the
> potential employer? I'd hate to learn that the autopilot or navigation
> software in a plane I'm flying in was contributed to by a mentally
> disturbed individual.
I would be more concerned about the pilot than the flight software.
There is a great deal of ignorance and hysteria surrounding mental
illness. Not everyone wants to be exposed to that, so why advertise
it?
--
My .sig file sucks. Can anyone recommend a better one?
David Steuber <·····@david-steuber.com> writes:
> ·········@gmail.com writes:
>
> > Why is it illegal to sell milk past its expiration date, but mentally
> > disturbed people can get away with concealing their condition from the
> > potential employer? I'd hate to learn that the autopilot or navigation
> > software in a plane I'm flying in was contributed to by a mentally
> > disturbed individual.
>
> I would be more concerned about the pilot than the flight software.
>
> There is a great deal of ignorance and hysteria surrounding mental
> illness. Not everyone wants to be exposed to that, so why advertise
> it?
I gotta concur with this.
I started to write a reply, but it ran long (even for me), and I filed
it away for use in one of the books I have on the back burner. Let me
just summarize with a couple of key points, though:
The true purpose of privacy in society, I think, as I heard someone
once say (I _think_ it was John Gilmore in some remarks at the first
Computers, Freedom and Privacy conference in San Francisco, 1990), is
to protect people from being meddled with over things that don't
matter. That is, there is no end to what things people don't like in
other people--religion, mental health status, etc. And you can't
always get someone to stop having such prejudices. So as a
consequence, the more you know about someone, the more you can control
them by making up rules about what you know. Privacy is about
understanding that a lot of the problems between people can be
alleviated by just not having people need to know. So even though you
can't get people to fear certain benign categories of people, you can
get them to not know who is in those categories, and that can help to
reduce the problems that result. So the question comes, when do we
_really_ need to know and when do we only think we do...?
This problem is very related to the issue of drug testing, which we've
all seen more of, so I relate it to that. It's a good analogy, I
allege, both because there are clearly cases of drug use that are not
a problem and that are pursued anyway, and there are clearly cases
where drug use is a problem and are not pursued. Plus there are
clearly things that are drug use that are not classified as such
(alcohol? caffeine? aspirin?). I'm sure there are analogies to these
various effects in mental health, but I'm not as conversational in
those, so I'll transform the problem some places here. I have to
assume some forms of mental health problems are benign, and that some
are not. So testing for mental health problems "per se" is not
indicative of anything. And probably some forms of mental health
problems that are known to have non-benign effects are defined by
society to still be something you can't screen out. (e.g., business
is often best done by the "aggressive", and the "passive" are often
left behind. Are these mental health issues, or just "personality"
issues? That line starts to seem subjective to me. And the outcome
is things like the recent dispute over whether this guy Bolton should
be representing the US in the United States...)
There's a difference between people with who are doing "front facing"
work, where the effect of what they do manifests directly on a
consuming party someone who is doing "back room" work that calls for
review before release. Piloting is front facing, and programming is,
in most cases, back room. (So there was a question asking whether
there should be mental health testing of pilots for mental health?
Sure. And the same for drugs. I think that, too. So I'll do that
substitution.) Piloting also has the quality of being something that
can cost lives instantly if done wrong. So absolutely, routine testing
seems warranted.
I think there are a lot of changes in society in the past few decades
that have moved away from "people taking responsibility for a
judgment" to "people defining a particular non-judgmental task as a
substitute for judgment". The government demands a "drug free
workplace" because it knows the public fears (partly because of its
own campaigns) the effects of drugs. As if there were no "bad
programming" (a programmer consequence) or "hurried programming" (a
management/budget effect) that had the same ill effect. But the
government doesn't (for good reason--it might put itself out of
business) require an "inanity-free workplace" nor a "stupidity-free
workplace" nor a "budget-insensitive workplace" nor an "unmanaged
workplace".
And because it doesn't do this, a company still has to check all the
same things as it would have to check on for the issue of mental
health or drug use. A company must QA its products against stupidity,
overhurried release, accidentally overlooking something even by a
smart programmer given enough time, etc. QA is simply good. And,
moreover, if you acknowledge QA is being done, won't it as easily
catch issues that mental health might address? But no, you worry,
some mental health cases or paranoid drug users might insert subtle
stuff that it's hard to test for. Well, there the problem is that
none of these tests are perfect. Sociopaths exist. People get through
drug tests. So if you're doing something where it matters, there's
no substitute for a second pair of eyes on code.
Seems to me, the primary people at risk at a workplace where drugs are
used or people have mental health problems are the others in that
workplace, not the end-user consumers that such laws tend to
address. That is, programmers are not "front facing" (do not interface
to the company's clients) and someone generally QA's their work, but
_do_ interface to other programmers, and have been known to throw
coffee cups when they are upset. So there's some risk, I guess. But
that's a personal comfort manager among the office, and not something
the government normally needs to be involved in. And while postal
customers sometimes worry about postal workers shooting up post
offices, most postal customers don't worry that injury will come to
them by opening their US Mail. If they do, they worry about things
like anthrax. And what's going to keep them from getting anthrax is
not "mental health screens" and "drug screens" for postal employees,
it's "screening for biological agents" or "irradiation of mail" or
some such...
Back to the above remark to which I'm indirectly replying, ("hate to
learn that the autopilot or navigation software in a plane I'm flying
in was contributed to by a mentally disturbed individual"), this flies
in contradiction of the whole notion of why people should trust open
source, which is not "we've drug-tested or mental-health-tested all
people who contribute to this" but rather "good or bad, contributed
code that can be viewed can be fixed, and will be recognized as or
will become good code through review". My sometimes disagreement with
free software as a philosophy is not based on any disagreement with
this claim (which I somewhat agree with), but is rather based on the
impact of free software. I think at some level, this notion that
"review is what builds confidence" is central to all computing. Even
in closed-source systems, the review has to happen, just internally.
If I had a disagreement with the open source community on this issue,
it would only be in the question of whether it is guaranteeing (and in
identifying who is guaranteeing) that the possibility of a lot of eyes
on each line of code has actually been realized. In closed source,
it's required because the company takes on the liability for failing
to have done it. In open source, the assumption is that the burden is
on the user community and there's not apparently localized liability
in some cases, and that's a problem for me because I worry it won't be
done, or won't be done evenly. And in those cases, I'm still inclined to
blame the paradigm that leads to lack of review, not to start to call
for more drug or mental health testing in the contributors...
Bottom Line: I've worked with some very skilled programmers who I was
told later were on various drugs at various times during when they did
their programming. I trust those programmers' code more than I trust
code by other, more mediocre programmers who were not on drugs. And
not because I like the programmers (sometimes I don't even like the
people, though that's rare--I mention it only to say I think I'm not
leaning on personal bias for friends here). I trust the programs
because the programs have been use-tested and there has been
independent QA, and I trust the process, or because the customer use
over a long period of time has shown no problems. And I'd prefer to
see programmers screened out for "too many bugs" (whether because they
drug-using or mentally unstable programmers OR people who are not
drug-using and not mentally unstable but are simply lazy or bad
programmers), just as I'd be ok with people who have certain physical
handicaps screened out if they IN FACT can't do the job (rather than
because someone BELIEVES they can't without giving them a chance to
show they can compensate). Blind or deaf bus drivers? No. That's
front-facing. But there are good blind or deaf programmers--and maybe
they've contributed usefully to the design of flight simulators. The
test of that is carry-through on design, proper testing, etc. Not an
eye or ear test.
Addendum / Meta-Observation: Me, I don't use drugs, never have. (But
I do use caffeine and aspirin, so maybe it's just a terminology
issue.) But my non-use is just my personal choice in a world full of
freedoms that I value greatly; I'm not willing to say drug testing is
ok just because it doesn't affect me. I'd like to think that if I
used drugs, I'd do so responsibly, and that testing for the mere fact
of their use would be wrong, and that only testing for bad impact on
others was appropriate. The US model has traditionally been one of
giving people freedom and letting them show their worth, not "prior
restraint" and with not too many prosecutions of victimless crimes
(yeah, there are some notable and sad exceptions--sigh); I fear that's
changing, and the world is getting more invasive/meddlesome out of
fear, and I lament that. The "war on terror" seems to be sustained by
keeping us in terror of terror, and so I don't understand how that
constitutes "winning" or even "making progress"... I just know well that
some very creative people who many of you here would give respect to
have used them, and perhaps still do--I'm not in that world, and
mostly don't worry about it. And there are probably some who wouldn't
pass mental health tests, too. I'd be sad to work in a world that
screened those people out without letting them try. In fact, I'm not
even sure we'd have the world we have now if we did ... some of the
best creative ideas of history may be attributable to mental
misfires...
Required Viewing: Gattaca
If they had started tested EVERYONE for HIV back when it was
discovered, and isolated the carriers, it would have been stopped back
in the 1980s instead of killing 3 million annum now. That's something
to think about.
If it were up to me, crack users would be shot on the spot. Marijuana
users may seem harmless until one of them leaves tire marks on your
body.
·········@gmail.com writes:
> If they had started tested EVERYONE for HIV back when it was
> discovered, and isolated the carriers, it would have been stopped back
> in the 1980s instead of killing 3 million annum now. That's something
> to think about.
>
> If it were up to me, crack users would be shot on the spot. Marijuana
> users may seem harmless until one of them leaves tire marks on your
> body.
Right.
How about those who drink alcohol ?
They are dangerous too.
In fact there are more alcohol related deaths than drug related deaths.
More alcohol related road accident deaths than deaths in the US from
HIV.
The conclusion is inescapable.
All those who consume alcohol should be shot on the spot.
Hmm... large pile of bodies.
Perhaps we should shoot all those who make typographical errors or
or grammatical errors next....
--
Seek simplicity and mistrust it.
Alfred Whitehead
A witty saying proves nothing.
Voltaire
······@bigpond.net.au wrote:
> Perhaps we should shoot all those who make typographical errors or
> or grammatical errors next....
Now that wuold be an easy way to comit suicide...
--
I believe in Karma. That means I can do bad things to people
all day long and I assume they deserve it.
Dogbert
·········@gmail.com writes:
> If they had started tested EVERYONE for HIV back when it was
> discovered, and isolated the carriers, it would have been stopped back
> in the 1980s instead of killing 3 million annum now. That's something
> to think about.
Think about? Just long enough to realize your plan for "compassionate
segregation" isn't, even with hindsight and even if I believe your
numbers of deaths (which I'm too lazy to check, so will accept here
for purposes of argument), a good one.
You falsely suggest that this would have "stopped" it back in the
1980s. In fact, the incubation time for HIV was so long and the
testing sufficiently inaccurate that it would only have "reduced" it.
Further, there is no coherent "they". We live in a multi-sovereign
world, where people move freely among countries. AIDS is, relatively
speaking, under control in some areas and out of control in others.
But it's up to the individual countries to make their own choices.
So even if one or more countries got it under control, without forced
intervention into other sovereign nations, it's not likely that your
ideal world of segregated HIV carriers would come to pass. And again,
that means it wouldn't be stopped. Wishing won't make it otherwise.
If you try invading other countries, you're going to find lots of wars
breaking out, and people dying for other reasons. You may also find out,
as some fear even now in Iraq, that a small number of interventions
overtaxes your country's forces (whatever your country may be), and
consequently you may find that you've left yourself vulnerable to
attack, and ultimately to losing all the other freedoms you hold dear.
(I also heard an interesting position taken in one report that it's
particularly hard to tell people in countries and lines of work where
the life expectancy is already low that they should protect themselves
from bad behavior because they might die early. If they already
perceive they're going to die early, they find it a hollow threat.)
But actually, HIV emphasizes my point about how people like to meddle
whre meddling isn't really neede. HIV is not known to attack people
who have not been in a risky situation. Yes, blood transfusions are a
problem, but they don't violate my claim--blood transfusion IS risky,
it's just generally considered less risky than the alternative in most
cases where it comes up for discussion at all. But the blood supply
would be at risk even if you quarantined every known HIV carrier in
the 1980's because some people weren't known yet to be carriers, and
still donated blood. So you still had to screen blood. And if you did
do that screening, it would be the same cost whether HIV carriers were
locked up or not. Ditto for health care workers who have to handle
blood. They have to protect themselves anyway, because they don't
want contamination even if it's "less likely". So in the end, there's
no huge cost to society for having failed to lock people up.
And, moreover, there's a lot of value in NOT locking hem up. We
didn't have to bear the economic cost of housing/feeding them in these
segregated camps you suggest, we didn't have to bear the emotional
cost and possibly even political upheavals brought on by dividing our
society this way, and we still obtained the very real and useful
personal contributions to society of a great many people unlucky
enough to get HIV (but still able to contribute for a time to society)
for some period of time between when you'd have locked them up and
when their infection caused the same.
Btw, since this IS a lisp newsgroup, let me just say that there's an
analogous issue sometimes raised about the presence of CHANGE-CLASS in
the language. Some people have said that the ability to do this
operation surely must make the language inefficient because retaining
the ability to do this interferes with certain optimizations. And most
people just don't need that power, so why not give up the operation?
But it turns out there are other decisions already made in the design
that require the same information to be present as is needed to support
CHANGE-CLASS. I'd have to think hard to remember what they are, but
I think just the presence of multiple-inheritance is one of them. And
the ability to redefine functions and classes at all may be another.
But my point is that people often point to something prominent as a
cause when really it's just a lightning rod for a cheapshot conversation.
A deeper investigation may find that the cost is already present.
For example, one might claim that PPRINT ought not be in the language,
but it's already there to support *PRINT-PRETTY*, which is needed for
debugging by most people, so saying that it's not there doesn't actually
reduce code size.
> If it were up to me, crack users would be shot on the spot. Marijuana
> users may seem harmless until one of them leaves tire marks on your
> body.
You can live in that world right now. Singapore awaits.
http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/1.04/gibson.html
But for those of us left in the "real world", the problem is that this
kind of attitude leads exactly to people hiding their practice until it's
so out of control it can't be hidden. (Not that every case actually runs
out of control, but my point is that there is no incentive for someone
to "come out" about drug use, since they risk being locked up.)
Saying that you would deal harshly with drug users, especially if you
know that drugs are chemically addictive and you don't know what led
to that addiction, is harsh to the point of being inhumane. Just to use
an extreme example, would you execute crack babies this way? Just a
rhetorical question, I don't need an answer. If your answer is no, you
get my point. If your answer is yes, you're into a fringe position far
beyond which I think it's productive to converse.
Similarly, what about kids who just made the mistake of hanging out
with the wrong crowd and foolishly tried something once, then couldn't
break the habit. If you think the answer to this question is yes,
then I'll bet you don't have kids, because if you did I think you'd
know that you can't guarantee that your own kids, however hard you
try, won't one day do something stupid.
As to concern about people leaving tire marks on bodies, my father was
(many years ago) killed by a drunk driver driving on the wrong side of
the road. Drunk on alcohol, by the way, not pot. But what killed him
was not alcohol--it was the decision to drive impaired. We as a society
have tried to make alcohol illegal and we know it doesn't work, so let's
not get silly about it.
Are we far afield of Lisp again? Maybe, maybe not. Programs, whether
social programs or computer programs, succeed when they represent the
correct concepts, and they become muddy when they pretend that the
proper representation is other than it really is. If you try to write
a program that predicts whether an accident will happen, pretending
that you can predict it by checking who's "using marijuana" is a bad
metric. A proper representation will show both alcohol and marijuana
to be capable of impairing someone, but will also not try to predict
doom merely from either of these happening by itself. The problem
really comes from a combination of impairment + driving. And how do
we best teach people not to do this? If we require people to hide the
use (to avoid arrest), we require them to hide the use that we could
socially flag with a friendly "hey, you shouldn't be driving in that
state". And the next time we see a manifest consequence is when the
bad thing happens and you track back through the private internals of
the backtrace to find that impairment had occurred undetected.
Making these things subject to external scrutiny makes other modules
of our program or of our society able to take earlier action.
One of the things I like so much about programming is how it allows
me to frame my understanding of the world clearly. By reflecting on
how a program would behave, or misbehave, given certain representations,
and whether those behaviors match the real world, I find out if my
understanding of the real world is really "complete and predictive".
Kent, you really like to write, don't you? Yet, most of what you wrote
here is wrong. Let's take this piece by piece:
Kent M Pitman wrote:
> ·········@gmail.com writes:
>
> > If they had started tested EVERYONE for HIV back when it was
> > discovered, and isolated the carriers, it would have been stopped back
> > in the 1980s instead of killing 3 million annum now. That's something
> > to think about.
>
> Think about? Just long enough to realize your plan for "compassionate
> segregation" isn't, even with hindsight and even if I believe your
> numbers of deaths (which I'm too lazy to check, so will accept here
> for purposes of argument), a good one.
Yet you are not lazy enough to write a whole paragraph questioning my
honesty.
> You falsely suggest that this would have "stopped" it back in the
> 1980s. In fact, the incubation time for HIV was so long and the
> testing sufficiently inaccurate that it would only have "reduced" it.
HIV can be detected days/weeks after infection, and the chance of a
false negative for an infected person is around 1 in a million.
> Further, there is no coherent "they". We live in a multi-sovereign
> world, where people move freely among countries. AIDS is, relatively
> speaking, under control in some areas and out of control in others.
> But it's up to the individual countries to make their own choices.
> So even if one or more countries got it under control, without forced
> intervention into other sovereign nations, it's not likely that your
> ideal world of segregated HIV carriers would come to pass. And again,
> that means it wouldn't be stopped. Wishing won't make it otherwise.
> If you try invading other countries, you're going to find lots of wars
> breaking out, and people dying for other reasons. You may also find out,
> as some fear even now in Iraq, that a small number of interventions
> overtaxes your country's forces (whatever your country may be), and
> consequently you may find that you've left yourself vulnerable to
> attack, and ultimately to losing all the other freedoms you hold dear.
This is a completely invented problem. Countries supporting the
initiative could require extensive testing/incubation of persons
entering from all other countries (at their expense). One would hope
that if most countries were in favor of mandatory testing, this would
force others to join. Either way, problem solved.
> (I also heard an interesting position taken in one report that it's
> particularly hard to tell people in countries and lines of work where
> the life expectancy is already low that they should protect themselves
> from bad behavior because they might die early. If they already
> perceive they're going to die early, they find it a hollow threat.)
>
> But actually, HIV emphasizes my point about how people like to meddle
> whre meddling isn't really neede. HIV is not known to attack people
> who have not been in a risky situation. Yes, blood transfusions are a
> problem, but they don't violate my claim--blood transfusion IS risky,
> it's just generally considered less risky than the alternative in most
> cases where it comes up for discussion at all. But the blood supply
> would be at risk even if you quarantined every known HIV carrier in
> the 1980's because some people weren't known yet to be carriers, and
> still donated blood. So you still had to screen blood. And if you did
> do that screening, it would be the same cost whether HIV carriers were
> locked up or not. Ditto for health care workers who have to handle
> blood. They have to protect themselves anyway, because they don't
> want contamination even if it's "less likely". So in the end, there's
> no huge cost to society for having failed to lock people up.
Strawman argument. The cost to the society is in those 3 million dying
per year, not in having to screen donated blood.
BTW, HIV tests are effective very soon after the infection, and the
chances of a false negative are extremely small. Sure, "reduce" would
be the right word to use than "stop", but for all practical purposes,
if you reduce the number of deaths from 3 million a year to, say,
thousands a year, you "stop" those 3 million deaths a year.
P.S. Educate yourself before you write long rants
http://globalhealth.org/view_top.php3?id=227
I'm out of this discussion for lack of motivation and time.
·········@gmail.com wrote:
> This is a completely invented problem. Countries supporting the
> initiative could require extensive testing/incubation of persons
> entering from all other countries (at their expense). One would hope
> that if most countries were in favor of mandatory testing, this would
> force others to join. Either way, problem solved.
So you want to give all infected people an entry in their passport, or a
mark on their forehead to tell they are Jew^W*cough*HIV+? Then lock
them away? What good would that be?
What I think would happen is something like Russia: people think only
the Africans have AIDS (because only those would get your mark on their
forehead), so they have unprotected intercourse. Now Moscow has a whole
lot of infected people, great!
How often do you want to test? One person contracts AIDS (or even
Hepatitis, or some other disease, there are many STDs), and spreads it
around. It takes AFAIK 12 weeks, maybe as you say much less time to
test, but then you'd have to test everybody every other week!
If you assume that negative people are "clean" and only test them once a
year, then the virus could infect LOTS of people in that time, depending
on how promiscuous those people are.
Baaad solution.
--
I believe in Karma. That means I can do bad things to people
all day long and I assume they deserve it.
Dogbert
In article <·······················@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
·········@gmail.com wrote:
> HIV can be detected days/weeks after infection, and the chance of a
> false negative for an infected person is around 1 in a million.
Not that this has anything to do with Lisp, but the chances of a false
positive on an HIV test are much higher than that. Also, it is not at
all clear that HIV infection necessarily leads to AIDS (see e.g.
http://www.virusmyth.net/aids/)
rg
Ron Garret <·········@flownet.com> writes:
> In article <·······················@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
> ·········@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > HIV can be detected days/weeks after infection, and the chance of a
> > false negative for an infected person is around 1 in a million.
>
> Not that this has anything to do with Lisp, but the chances of a false
> positive on an HIV test are much higher than that.
And in the 1980's, when Alex alleges drastic action should have been
taken, the incubation time between infection and possible detection
was frequently stated in terms of years or sometimes decades. Only
in very recent years after intensive multi-decade research, has the
time for detection fallen. So let's view history in its proper light.
And I agree, this has nothing apparent to do with Lisp at this point
in the conversation. I just can't stand seeing misleading statements
stand unchallenged.
Kent M Pitman wrote:
> Ron Garret <·········@flownet.com> writes:
>
> > In article <·······················@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
> > ·········@gmail.com wrote:
> >
> > > HIV can be detected days/weeks after infection, and the chance of a
> > > false negative for an infected person is around 1 in a million.
> >
> > Not that this has anything to do with Lisp, but the chances of a false
> > positive on an HIV test are much higher than that.
>
> And in the 1980's, when Alex alleges drastic action should have been
> taken, the incubation time between infection and possible detection
> was frequently stated in terms of years or sometimes decades. Only
> in very recent years after intensive multi-decade research, has the
> time for detection fallen. So let's view history in its proper light.
Kent, I don't mean to sound insulting, but I can tell by your mere
(mis)use of terminology that you are not exactly an insider in HIV
epidemiology.
Humor us, tell us how much an HIV test cost in 1987, what the odds of a
false negative were, what the window period (not incubation period!)
was, and what your sources are.
Only if THEN your numbers disagree with my numbers, will you be
"correcting misleading statements".
> And I agree, this has nothing apparent to do with Lisp at this point
> in the conversation. I just can't stand seeing misleading statements
> stand unchallenged.
It seems you can't stand seeing ANY statements stand unchallenged.
You questioned my "3 million deaths per year" number, because you were
too lazy to look it up, and you expect someone to believe you are some
kind of an expert?
P.S. Damn it, I promised to end this discussion, but hey, I can't stand
seeing misleading statements stand unchallenged.
·········@gmail.com writes:
> Only if THEN your numbers disagree with my numbers, will you be
> "correcting misleading statements".
This misleading statement you made was that the entire event could
have been "stopped" by a social action such as partitioning large
numbers of people early in the 1980's. That I might be wrong on some
detail that I do not profess to be an expert about does not make me
wrong on the notion that there was a highly measurable error rate.
If you want to take issue with this, do it elsewhere where there are
people who do profess to be experts.
> It seems you can't stand seeing ANY statements stand unchallenged.
You're welcome to challenge my statements. I don't purport to be an
expert here on the disease part. It's the social engineering I take
issue with. I'm not an expert in what will make the world work, but I
know a fair deal about what simplistic things are likely to fail.
> You questioned my "3 million deaths per year" number, because you were
> too lazy to look it up, and you expect someone to believe you are some
> kind of an expert?
I didn't question it as a number that die, I questioned it as a number
that could be saved. You can't look up a hypothetical. I'm sorry if
I confused you about what I questioned.
> P.S. Damn it, I promised to end this discussion, but hey, I can't stand
> seeing misleading statements stand unchallenged.
Reply or not as it suits you. I'm done letting you waste my time.
As I said, I think this never belonged here.
Kent M Pitman wrote:
> ·········@gmail.com writes:
>
> > Only if THEN your numbers disagree with my numbers, will you be
> > "correcting misleading statements".
>
> This misleading statement you made was that the entire event could
> have been "stopped" by a social action such as partitioning large
> numbers of people early in the 1980's. That I might be wrong on some
> detail that I do not profess to be an expert about does not make me
> wrong on the notion that there was a highly measurable error rate.
> If you want to take issue with this, do it elsewhere where there are
> people who do profess to be experts.
>
> > It seems you can't stand seeing ANY statements stand unchallenged.
>
> I don't purport to be an expert here on the disease part.
You've made lots of supposedly authoritative statements about things
you are clueless about. E.g.
"And in the 1980's, when Alex alleges drastic action should have been
taken, the incubation time between infection and possible detection
was frequently stated in terms of years or sometimes decades. Only
in very recent years after intensive multi-decade research, has the
time for detection fallen."
You confused basic concepts (window vs incubation period), you invented
your own numbers (years for detection), you questioned my numbers.
The big question is why. I don't know why, but I can guess. I think you
have POWS (professional obsessive writer syndrome): you like writing
and sounding authoritative, facts notwithstanding.
Ron Garret <·········@flownet.com> wrote:
>all clear that HIV infection necessarily leads to AIDS (see e.g.
>http://www.virusmyth.net/aids/)
From that webpage:
``Most of them think AIDS is also not sexually transmitted; it
probably has toxic causes. People die because they are poisoned to
death by toxic antiviral drugs.''
Of course the many AIDS dead in Africa are the result of poisoning
with expensive antiviral medicaments <...> That's the same kind of
bullshit reasoning that infests people's mind who're trying to cure
cancer with homeopathic water, extracted lumps of tumour flesh ("two
evils cancel out each other"), and similar utter cretinism that
permeats some circles of society (acupuncture, TCM, the whole
esoterics sector with tin foil hats and "orgon energy" collector
pyramids, the "intelligent" design crap, the hollow-earth and
the-moon-is-artificial idiocy, all those aliens-control-our-governments
conspiracy theories, etc. etc.) It's really frustrating, even more
if people are dying because of that.
mkb.
Matthias Buelow wrote:
> Ron Garret <·········@flownet.com> wrote:
>
> >all clear that HIV infection necessarily leads to AIDS (see e.g.
> >http://www.virusmyth.net/aids/)
Yes, as any African doctor will tell you, HIV/AIDS can be cured by
having sex with a virgin.
> From that webpage:
>
> ``Most of them think AIDS is also not sexually transmitted; it
> probably has toxic causes. People die because they are poisoned to
> death by toxic antiviral drugs.''
>
> Of course the many AIDS dead in Africa are the result of poisoning
> with expensive antiviral medicaments <...> That's the same kind of
> bullshit reasoning that infests people's mind who're trying to cure
> cancer with homeopathic water, extracted lumps of tumour flesh ("two
> evils cancel out each other"), and similar utter cretinism that
> permeats some circles of society (acupuncture, TCM, the whole
> esoterics sector with tin foil hats and "orgon energy" collector
> pyramids, the "intelligent" design crap, the hollow-earth and
> the-moon-is-artificial idiocy, all those aliens-control-our-governments
> conspiracy theories, etc. etc.) It's really frustrating, even more
> if people are dying because of that.
>
> mkb.
I think Ron was joking. I hope he was.
In article <························@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>,
·········@gmail.com wrote:
> Matthias Buelow wrote:
> > Ron Garret <·········@flownet.com> wrote:
> >
> > >all clear that HIV infection necessarily leads to AIDS (see e.g.
> > >http://www.virusmyth.net/aids/)
>
> Yes, as any African doctor will tell you, HIV/AIDS can be cured by
> having sex with a virgin.
...
> I think Ron was joking. I hope he was.
Nope, I was serious. But if you want to continue this discussion you
should 1) actually read some of the anti-HIV-AIDS arguments, not just
the summary, 2) stop raising straw-man arguments and 3) change the
subject line.
rg
In article <··············@news.dfncis.de>,
Matthias Buelow <···@incubus.de> wrote:
> Ron Garret <·········@flownet.com> wrote:
>
> >all clear that HIV infection necessarily leads to AIDS (see e.g.
> >http://www.virusmyth.net/aids/)
>
> From that webpage:
>
> ``Most of them think AIDS is also not sexually transmitted; it
> probably has toxic causes. People die because they are poisoned to
> death by toxic antiviral drugs.''
>
> Of course the many AIDS dead in Africa are the result of poisoning
> with expensive antiviral medicaments <...> That's the same kind of
> bullshit reasoning that infests people's mind who're trying to cure
> cancer with homeopathic water
You should read more than just the summary before attacking this theory.
The issue of African AIDS is dealt with quite extensively:
http://www.virusmyth.net/aids/index/africa.htm
and if you don't want to read all of the forty or so references dealing
with just this one issue, start with:
http://www.virusmyth.net/aids/data/pdafrica.htm
rg
Ron Garret <·········@flownet.com> wrote:
>You should read more than just the summary before attacking this theory.
I think my time is too precious for that; in the (unlikely) event
that that questionable "theory" proves true, I'm sure we'll hear
of it.
mkb.
In article <··············@news.dfncis.de>,
Matthias Buelow <···@incubus.de> wrote:
> Ron Garret <·········@flownet.com> wrote:
>
> >You should read more than just the summary before attacking this theory.
>
> I think my time is too precious for that; in the (unlikely) event
> that that questionable "theory" proves true, I'm sure we'll hear
> of it.
Perhaps.
http://science.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/08/30/2048236&tid=14
rg
·········@gmail.com writes:
>> > If they had started tested EVERYONE for HIV back when it was
>> > discovered, and isolated the carriers, it would have been stopped back
>> > in the 1980s instead of killing 3 million annum now. That's something
>> > to think about.
>>
>> Think about? Just long enough to realize your plan for "compassionate
>> segregation" isn't, even with hindsight and even if I believe your
>> numbers of deaths (which I'm too lazy to check, so will accept here
>> for purposes of argument), a good one.
>
> Yet you are not lazy enough to write a whole paragraph questioning my
> honesty.
Your outrage puzzles when one actually bothers to try to verify the claims
that immediately follow it.
>
>> You falsely suggest that this would have "stopped" it back in the
>> 1980s. In fact, the incubation time for HIV was so long and the
>> testing sufficiently inaccurate that it would only have "reduced" it.
>
> HIV can be detected days/weeks after infection, and the chance of a
> false negative for an infected person is around 1 in a million.
The numbers I am familiar with -- together with a little arithmetic suggests
you'd have ended up with vast quarantine camps composed mostly of the healthy
(let's take the US as an example):
According to [0] the specificity of AIDS tests nowadays is about 99.99% (Elisa
+ 2nd Western blot test on a single blood sample) -- and superficial googling
suggests it to have been no more than 99.9% (as opposed to 99.9999% as you
imply above) in the 80ies[1]. So of the roughly (1-0.006)*296*10^6 =
290,000,000 US Americans that don't suffer from AIDS[2] about 29,000 would
falsely test positive today and about 290,000 back then -- compare that to a
*total* of diagnosed AIDS cases and deaths in the US in the 80ies; 151,000 and
28,000, respectively [3].
>> Further, there is no coherent "they". We live in a multi-sovereign
>> world, where people move freely among countries. AIDS is, relatively
>> speaking, under control in some areas and out of control in others.
>> But it's up to the individual countries to make their own choices.
>> So even if one or more countries got it under control, without forced
>> intervention into other sovereign nations, it's not likely that your
>> ideal world of segregated HIV carriers would come to pass. And again,
>> that means it wouldn't be stopped. Wishing won't make it otherwise.
>> If you try invading other countries, you're going to find lots of wars
>> breaking out, and people dying for other reasons. You may also find out,
>> as some fear even now in Iraq, that a small number of interventions
>> overtaxes your country's forces (whatever your country may be), and
>> consequently you may find that you've left yourself vulnerable to
>> attack, and ultimately to losing all the other freedoms you hold dear.
>
> This is a completely invented problem. Countries supporting the
> initiative could require extensive testing/incubation of persons
> entering from all other countries (at their expense).
> One would hope that if most countries were in favor of mandatory testing,
> this would force others to join. Either way, problem solved.
Did it ever occur to you that given the nature of your advocated measures, the
only type of country in a position to implement and enforce them would be some
sort of technolgically advanced, autarkic, totalitarian state?
> BTW, HIV tests are effective very soon after the infection, and the
> chances of a false negative are extremely small.
Actually the sensitivity appears to be even worse then specifity (99.9% for a
single blood sample -- and of course as successive tests are not
probabilistically independent you can't get arbitrarily better results --
witness the example of a HIV positive man who tested negative 35 times over a
period of 5 years in the VA Medical Centre in Salt Lake city--*despite* having
a strain of HIV typical for the US; see[0]).
> Sure, "reduce" would be the right word to use than "stop", but for all
> practical purposes, if you reduce the number of deaths from 3 million a year
> to, say, thousands a year, you "stop" those 3 million deaths a year.
>
> P.S. Educate yourself before you write long rants
> http://globalhealth.org/view_top.php3?id=227
> I'm out of this discussion for lack of motivation and time.
I did't find anything on false positive rates/specificity of HIV tests on that
page (or googling the site) or indeed anything else that supports your numbers
(e.g. [4] suggests even lower sensitivity).
'as
Footnotes:
[0] Gigerenzer 2002, "Calculated Risk"
[1] <http://www.sumeria.net/aids/false.html>
[2] Population (296*10^6) and AIDS prevalence rate (0.006) from CIA World Fact
Book: <http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/us.html>
[3] adding up <http://www.avert.org/usastaty.htm>
[4] <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HIV_test>
> According to [0] the specificity of AIDS tests nowadays is about 99.99% (Elisa
> + 2nd Western blot test on a single blood sample) -- and superficial googling
> suggests it to have been no more than 99.9% (as opposed to 99.9999%
> as you imply above) in the 80ies[1]. So of the roughly
> (1-0.006)*296*10^6 = 290,000,000 US Americans that don't suffer from
> AIDS[2] about 29,000 would falsely test positive today and about
> 290,000 back then -- compare that to a *total* of diagnosed AIDS
> cases and deaths in the US in the 80ies; 151,000 and 28,000,
> respectively [3].
This very "false positive" problem also pretty nicely characterizes
why terrorist screenings are only barely not useless.
On an average day, there aren't any terrorists "on duty." Thus
meaning that out of the hundreds of thousands of people that board
aircraft, a successful screening shouldn't find anyone.
A screening system that reports ten times more "false positives" than
there should have been positives (which isn't far from what the above
shows off with AIDS) is unsuccessful to the point of being dangerous.
I can't imagine there being a terrorist screening system that wouldn't
report on the order of hundreds to thousands of times as many "false
positives" as there can be *true* "positives."
Unfortunately, the above analysis is so far beyond the average
person's ability with statistics that people are capable of imagining
that screening can work :-(.
--
(reverse (concatenate 'string "moc.liamg" ·@" "enworbbc"))
http://cbbrowne.com/info/
If we were meant to fly, we wouldn't keep losing our luggage.
Christopher Browne <········@acm.org> writes:
> > According to [0] the specificity of AIDS tests nowadays is about 99.99% (Elisa
> > + 2nd Western blot test on a single blood sample) -- and superficial googling
> > suggests it to have been no more than 99.9% (as opposed to 99.9999%
> > as you imply above) in the 80ies[1]. So of the roughly
> > (1-0.006)*296*10^6 = 290,000,000 US Americans that don't suffer from
> > AIDS[2] about 29,000 would falsely test positive today and about
> > 290,000 back then -- compare that to a *total* of diagnosed AIDS
> > cases and deaths in the US in the 80ies; 151,000 and 28,000,
> > respectively [3].
>
> This very "false positive" problem also pretty nicely characterizes
> why terrorist screenings are only barely not useless.
>
> On an average day, there aren't any terrorists "on duty." Thus
> meaning that out of the hundreds of thousands of people that board
> aircraft, a successful screening shouldn't find anyone.
>
> A screening system that reports ten times more "false positives" than
> there should have been positives (which isn't far from what the above
> shows off with AIDS) is unsuccessful to the point of being dangerous.
>
> I can't imagine there being a terrorist screening system that wouldn't
> report on the order of hundreds to thousands of times as many "false
> positives" as there can be *true* "positives."
>
> Unfortunately, the above analysis is so far beyond the average
> person's ability with statistics that people are capable of imagining
> that screening can work :-(.
I think much of what they do at the airports is ridiculous,
and I am also very concerned about the privacy invasions.
However, I believe they have actually caught some people
through the "no fly" screening system. This relies on the
terrorists using IDs with their known names, of course.
Me on cell phone at airport recently:
"Hang on, gotta call you back; time for the anal probing..."
Alex, a couple of remarks:
1. You talk about false positive, even though I specifically mentioned
false negative.
2. "Superficial googling" does not make one an expert.
Read this http://www.sfaf.org/aids101/hiv_testing.html for more info.
False positives don't really matter, because all you have to do is
retest at a later date, because a false positive is a temporary glitch.
You would be better off reading carefully what I wrote before posting
your refutations resulting from "superficial googling", espeically when
you lack the necessary understanding of the issues involved, like Kent.
Kent M Pitman <······@nhplace.com> writes:
> ·········@gmail.com writes:
>
> But for those of us left in the "real world", the problem is that this
> kind of attitude leads exactly to people hiding their practice until it's
> so out of control it can't be hidden. (Not that every case actually runs
> out of control, but my point is that there is no incentive for someone
> to "come out" about drug use, since they risk being locked up.)
>
All of what you put is very well said and I agree. The paragraph above
also strikes a cord on another level for me. One of the criticisms I
heard of the US health care system compared to what we have had in
Australia was that due to its structure, people are discouraged from
seeking help until the problem becomes so bad they are forced to go
and visit the emergency room. By this stage, often something which
could have been cured with a few dollars of medication has become so
cronic it now needs major intervention - leading to a large
expenditure.
Unfortunately, the Australian health system, which was one of the best
in the world, is now going down the US track. This is a little ironic
since a few years ago, we had quite a few delegations from the US
visiting to learn how we did it to see if the same principals could be
applied to improve their system.
I also like your analogies with programming and may be able to carry
it further. One of the mistakes you often see in programming is people
who jump into writing code under the belief they know how the system
works and understand it. In reality, they have bits and pieces they
have obtained from non-authoritive sources and which are often
coloured by folklore, legend, rumor etc. Its only way down the track
of code development that it becomes evident some really fundamental
choices at the beginning were incorrect and based on incorrect
information, requiring refactoriing, major rewrites and
workarounds. The worst case is when there is a refusal to acknowledge
the errors of early decisions and an insistance on sticking to poor
abstraction which doesn't really represent the problem domain and
results in an uncomfortable fit with reality that requires constant
fudging and tweaking to make work.
Beleive nothing - verify everything!
Tim
--
Tim Cross
The e-mail address on this message is FALSE (obviously!). My real e-mail is
to a company in Australia called rapttech and my login is tcross - if you
really need to send mail, you should be able to work it out!
·········@gmail.com writes:
> If it were up to me, crack users would be shot on the spot. Marijuana
> users may seem harmless until one of them leaves tire marks on your
> body.
Hmmm... nice idea -- then extend that to alcohol (mis)use and on
your way don't forget to shoot George W.
I'd say human life is a bit more complex and there are not only
good guys and bad guys. And you totally underestimate the problem
of isolating a epidemic.
Just study history of diseases. The only hope is to find a vaccine
and let everyone use it. In germany some diseases are coming back
because vaccination is not forced by law and there are some groups
rejecting any vaccinations (IIRC this is a problem especially with
measles ("Masern") which can make some really bad remote damages
up to death).
Some diseases are dead in Europe but only because of
vaccination. If vaccination is stopped most if not all of those
diseases will come back. So your idea of isolating all HIV
infected people is really silly and shows you have no idea of the
real problem.
--
Stefan.
·········@gmail.com writes:
> If they had started tested EVERYONE for HIV back when it was
> discovered, and isolated the carriers, it would have been stopped back
> in the 1980s instead of killing 3 million annum now. That's something
> to think about.
And who would have paid for that? Have you got any idea how much it
would cost to test every person in just the US? Given that it also has
a 3 month incubation period, you would also have to test everyone at
least twice and ensure they didn't have sex in the meantime. Totally
rediculous suggestion as its simply not practical, not to mention that
you would have to do it for the entire planet or also ban all travel
into/out of the US.
> If it were up to me, crack users would be shot on the spot. Marijuana
> users may seem harmless until one of them leaves tire marks on your
> body.
OK, so do you believe the same about alcohol? What about young
inexperienced drivers who lack the maturity to understand the dangers
and how easily you can kill someone in a car, but still drive too fast
for their experience etc.
I won't even bother going into the social issues that lead to drug
abuse and the arrogance of making such sweeping statements without any
reference to individual situations and opportunities (or the lack of
them).
I can see from your comments on mental illness and drug abuse you
don't have much compassion for others. Lets hope you never end up in a
situation which would benefit from such compassion.
Tim
--
Tim Cross
The e-mail address on this message is FALSE (obviously!). My real e-mail is
to a company in Australia called rapttech and my login is tcross - if you
really need to send mail, you should be able to work it out!
Tim X wrote:
> ·········@gmail.com writes:
>
> > If they had started tested EVERYONE for HIV back when it was
> > discovered, and isolated the carriers, it would have been stopped back
> > in the 1980s instead of killing 3 million annum now. That's something
> > to think about.
>
> And who would have paid for that? Have you got any idea how much it
> would cost to test every person in just the US?
Since 1.5 million people died or will die of AIDS in the US, if one
test costs 1.5/(2*250) = 0.3% the cost of human life, you'd break even
right there.
That's not all though. Do you know how much is spent on HIV research,
prevention, treatment, etc., or how much money is lost because people
die early?
> I can see from your comments on mental illness and drug abuse you
> don't have much compassion for others.
It's not about lack of compassion. It's whether your compassion for
some people (poor crack users, poor tax-payers, poor HIV victims who
want to live in the general population) is greater than your compassion
for others (future HIV victims, future tax-payers, general population
that has to live in fear).
·········@gmail.com writes:
> Tim X wrote:
> > ·········@gmail.com writes:
> >
> > > If they had started tested EVERYONE for HIV back when it was
> > > discovered, and isolated the carriers, it would have been stopped back
> > > in the 1980s instead of killing 3 million annum now. That's something
> > > to think about.
> >
> > And who would have paid for that? Have you got any idea how much it
> > would cost to test every person in just the US?
>
> Since 1.5 million people died or will die of AIDS in the US, if one
> test costs 1.5/(2*250) = 0.3% the cost of human life, you'd break even
> right there.
>
> That's not all though. Do you know how much is spent on HIV research,
> prevention, treatment, etc., or how much money is lost because people
> die early?
Firstly, the costs if you are going to test everyone has to be based
on the population, not just those who are infected - as you said, you
have to test EVERYONE.
Secondly, the benefit would only be achieved if you were able to test
everyone in the world and do it within a short time. Again, the costs
would be astronomical and the resources necessary to do the whole worl
- well, I doubt we could ever get them.
Thirdsly, there was a long lag period from the point when people began
getting aids to the point when the medical world was able to idetnify
it and still longer before we had a test - the toothpaste was already
out of the tube before we were ever in a position to test everyone
(assuming that was ever possible anyway).
> > I can see from your comments on mental illness and drug abuse you
> > don't have much compassion for others.
>
> It's not about lack of compassion. It's whether your compassion for
> some people (poor crack users, poor tax-payers, poor HIV victims who
> want to live in the general population) is greater than your compassion
> for others (future HIV victims, future tax-payers, general population
> that has to live in fear).
>
I don't agree. The problem with your approach is that it does not
recognise the drug addicts, AIDS sufferers etc as victims. Shooting crack
addicts isn't going to improve the situation because its only
attacking the symptoms not the cause. This is why I say your attitude
shows a lack of compassion. If people don't want to live in fear, then
they should do something about the causes of the problems, not about
the other victims of those causes.
to me, your arguments sound like ones which are based on popular media
stories that are usually overly simplistic and often blame the victims
rather than tackle the more difficult problem of the causes.
As an example, your previous comment about stoned drivers leaving tyre
marks on your body - do you actually have any idea how many
pedestrians are killed by drivers who are under the influence of dope?
How do those figures compare to drivers under the influence of a legal
drug like alcohol? The popular media will have us believe all stoned
drivers are extremely dangerous and responsible for a lot of
deaths. Well, stoned drivers are dangerous and we should treat them
the same as drivers on alcohol. However, we should also be consistent
- just because someone smokes dope doesn't mean they drive after doing
so any more than you could say someone who drinks alcohol also drives
under the influence.
I think we should be consistent in our attitudes and laws. Considering
all the stats show that there are more deaths, illnesses and costs
associated with alcohol than dope, why do we socially accept one and
reject the other. Either reject them both or accept them both or do
the research necessary to show one has significantly more associated
problems than the other - but lets be consistent.
This is not an argument for legalising dope by the way. I think it is
difficult to justify yet another socially acceptable drug which will
add to the social costs, but I do have a problem with one being
advertised all the time as being a necessity for a good time and the
other resulting in a criminal record and possible jail term when there
doesn't seem to be any facts or scientific evidence to justify such a
position. Again, we should be consistent in our judgement and we
should probably refraim from making sweeping statements about the
evils if we don't actually have any facts and are baseing our opinions
on nothing more than FUD.
Tim
--
Tim Cross
The e-mail address on this message is FALSE (obviously!). My real e-mail is
to a company in Australia called rapttech and my login is tcross - if you
really need to send mail, you should be able to work it out!
Tim X wrote:
> ·········@gmail.com writes:
>
> > Tim X wrote:
> > > ·········@gmail.com writes:
> > >
> > > > If they had started tested EVERYONE for HIV back when it was
> > > > discovered, and isolated the carriers, it would have been stopped back
> > > > in the 1980s instead of killing 3 million annum now. That's something
> > > > to think about.
> > >
> > > And who would have paid for that? Have you got any idea how much it
> > > would cost to test every person in just the US?
> >
> > Since 1.5 million people died or will die of AIDS in the US, if one
> > test costs 1.5/(2*250) = 0.3% the cost of human life, you'd break even
> > right there.
> >
> > That's not all though. Do you know how much is spent on HIV research,
> > prevention, treatment, etc., or how much money is lost because people
> > die early?
>
> Firstly, the costs if you are going to test everyone has to be based
> on the population, not just those who are infected - as you said, you
> have to test EVERYONE.
Why are you telling me this? The 250 above refers to the whole US
population you asked about.
Reading the rest of your comments, I see that you agree with my
position against marijuana. Nice.
Tim X <····@spamto.devnul.com> writes:
[...]
Fourthly: AFAIK not only humans can spread the virus, so you have
to test not only humans -- or get a vaccine, but that we lack til
now (AFAIK there will be none before 2008 or 2010).
And don't forget about many people that have no interest in
helping others: HIV medicine is sold in Africa much too expensive
and generic medicaments are prohibited (the US puts much pressure
on countries that don't have strong enough patent laws).
So, in this world there would never be enough collective effort to
test every person in the world for HIV (even if it would really
extinguish HIV).
--
Stefan.
From: Ulrich Hobelmann
Subject: [OT] HIV and Drug abuse (was: Re: can anyone offer Lisp job?)
Date:
Message-ID: <3nat0pFm0u0U1@individual.net>
Tim X wrote:
> I don't agree. The problem with your approach is that it does not
> recognise the drug addicts, AIDS sufferers etc as victims. Shooting crack
> addicts isn't going to improve the situation because its only
> attacking the symptoms not the cause. This is why I say your attitude
But those causes aren't causing everybody there to smoke crack. Sure, I
agree that addiction is a sickness that needs to be treated, so those
people *are* victims. But it was also their own fault to start it in
the first place; that should be asserted. (with drinking it's more
problematic, as that's considered normal, even good in huge amounts!,
but lots of people, so it's easy to develop a silent addiction there)
> shows a lack of compassion. If people don't want to live in fear, then
> they should do something about the causes of the problems, not about
> the other victims of those causes.
Sure. But IMHO most drug abuses in "normal society" are based on
voluntary need-to-be-cool and group pressure. Stupid to give in to
those (or your own fault). In the slums and ghettos things are
different, and those people have serious other problems that need to be
attacked, sure.
> to me, your arguments sound like ones which are based on popular media
> stories that are usually overly simplistic and often blame the victims
> rather than tackle the more difficult problem of the causes.
Maybe I have a different environment, but I think most drinkers aren't
portrayed as guilty, but rather people with too many problems in their
life to deal with them.
> As an example, your previous comment about stoned drivers leaving tyre
> marks on your body - do you actually have any idea how many
> pedestrians are killed by drivers who are under the influence of dope?
Probably few, because if you're stoned it's hard to drive. (disclaimer:
I only smoked pot two times, so I hardly know what's going on)
> How do those figures compare to drivers under the influence of a legal
> drug like alcohol? The popular media will have us believe all stoned
Alcohol is reducing fear, increasing aggressiveness etc., makes people
think they can still drive, yes.
> drivers are extremely dangerous and responsible for a lot of
> deaths. Well, stoned drivers are dangerous and we should treat them
> the same as drivers on alcohol. However, we should also be consistent
Sure, sack their license. I think that's what is being done, but I
haven't even *heard* of anybody driving while stoned.
> - just because someone smokes dope doesn't mean they drive after doing
> so any more than you could say someone who drinks alcohol also drives
> under the influence.
I had the impression that in the US many more people have a beer or two
and still drive, while in Germany almost nobody (I know) would do that.
Well, Germany sees much more traffic, too, so maybe they have a reason.
> I think we should be consistent in our attitudes and laws. Considering
> all the stats show that there are more deaths, illnesses and costs
> associated with alcohol than dope, why do we socially accept one and
> reject the other. Either reject them both or accept them both or do
GOOD question.
> the research necessary to show one has significantly more associated
> problems than the other - but lets be consistent.
>
> This is not an argument for legalising dope by the way. I think it is
But I have one: who's business is it if someone smokes pot in their
basement? Nobody's! If you take drugs and drive, sure, let them tuck
you in jail if they need to. But seriously, what happened to freedom
and taking personal responsibility? Why arbitrarily prohibit ALL use of
some substance? How come the Dutch smoke less pot (and take fewer other
drugs too AFAIK) than the Germans, even though they legalized it and we
didn't?
> difficult to justify yet another socially acceptable drug which will
> add to the social costs, but I do have a problem with one being
> advertised all the time as being a necessity for a good time and the
> other resulting in a criminal record and possible jail term when there
> doesn't seem to be any facts or scientific evidence to justify such a
That's one problem I associate with the conformist society, whose
picture you painted in another post. Seems like some people NEED to get
drunk to enjoy themselves nowadays... :(
> position. Again, we should be consistent in our judgement and we
> should probably refraim from making sweeping statements about the
> evils if we don't actually have any facts and are baseing our opinions
> on nothing more than FUD.
Seems like the FUD works much better than reason...
--
I believe in Karma. That means I can do bad things to people
all day long and I assume they deserve it.
Dogbert
On Sat, 27 Aug 2005 12:19:05 +0200, Ulrich Hobelmann wrote:
> But seriously, what happened to freedom and taking personal
> responsibility?
Are people still doing that? :>
In article <·············@individual.net>,
Ulrich Hobelmann <···········@web.de> wrote:
> what happened to freedom [?]
It died on 9/11 when people decided they would rather be secure than
free.
rg
Ron Garret <·········@flownet.com> writes:
> In article <·············@individual.net>,
> Ulrich Hobelmann <···········@web.de> wrote:
>
> > what happened to freedom [?]
>
> It died on 9/11 when people decided they would rather be secure than
> free.
Or if it isn't yet dead, it certainly is dying. Which leads to the
often paraphrased but never heeded:
Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little
Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
- Ben Franklin
/Jon
--
'j' - a n t h o n y at romeo/charley/november com
jayessay wrote:
> Ron Garret <·········@flownet.com> writes:
>
>> In article <·············@individual.net>,
>> Ulrich Hobelmann <···········@web.de> wrote:
>>
>>> what happened to freedom [?]
>> It died on 9/11 when people decided they would rather be secure than
>> free.
>
> Or if it isn't yet dead, it certainly is dying. Which leads to the
> often paraphrased but never heeded:
>
>
> Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little
> Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
>
> - Ben Franklin
Right, they're getting what they deserve, losing both right now. Too
bad they pull everyone else into it.
--
My ideal for the future is to develop a filesystem remote interface (a
la Plan 9) and then have it implemented across the Internet as the
standard rather than HTML. That would be ultimate cool.
Ken Thompson
Ulrich Hobelmann <···········@web.de> writes:
> jayessay wrote:
> > Ron Garret <·········@flownet.com> writes:
> >
> >> In article <·············@individual.net>,
> >> Ulrich Hobelmann <···········@web.de> wrote:
> >>
> >>> what happened to freedom [?]
> >> It died on 9/11 when people decided they would rather be secure
> >> than free.
> > Or if it isn't yet dead, it certainly is dying. Which leads to the
> > often paraphrased but never heeded:
> > Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little
> > Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
> > - Ben Franklin
>
> Right, they're getting what they deserve, losing both right now. Too
> bad they pull everyone else into it.
>
> --
> My ideal for the future is to develop a filesystem remote interface (a
> la Plan 9) and then have it implemented across the Internet as the
> standard rather than HTML. That would be ultimate cool.
> Ken Thompson
Yes. However, I have to throw in a bit of conspiracy theory - it seems
governments have seized on this whole "war on terror" thing to remove
some liberties they have been trying to get hold of for too long.
In Australia, the whole issue of national ID cards has again entered
the lime light. This happened back in the 80's but was rejected by a
vast majority. The DNA database is also back on the table - something
which was also rejected a long time ago.
What I can never understand is how people fail to see the bigger
picture. It might be fine to give up all these iberties while you have
a government you feel you can trust - but what about the future when
we are electing people who may not be as ethical?
Tim
P.S. and I've never felt less trusting in a government than the one we
have at the moment! In nearly 47 years of voting, I've never seen a
government who treats people with so much contempt. then again, I've
never known a time when voters have voted on such single "hip pocket'
policies either.
--
Tim Cross
The e-mail address on this message is FALSE (obviously!). My real e-mail is
to a company in Australia called rapttech and my login is tcross - if you
really need to send mail, you should be able to work it out!
Tim X wrote:
> I won't even bother going into the social issues that lead to drug
> abuse and the arrogance of making such sweeping statements without any
> reference to individual situations and opportunities (or the lack of
> them).
Are you saying people tend to become crack addicts because they lack
economic opportunity, and it's the system that is to blame? :-)
From: Nils M Holm
Subject: Re: can anyone offer Lisp job?
Date:
Message-ID: <dep4vu$dvr$1@online.de>
·········@gmail.com wrote:
> Are you saying people tend to become crack addicts because they lack
> economic opportunity, and it's the system that is to blame? :-)
If you skip the "Are you saying" part and omit the :-), I would second
that statement, but there are certainly better groups to discuss this.
BTW, in case you want to learn more about "the system", I would recommend
the fine book "Naming the System" by Michael D Yates.
--
Nils M Holm <···@despammed.com> -- http://www.t3x.org/nmh/
Nils M Holm wrote:
> ·········@gmail.com wrote:
> > Are you saying people tend to become crack addicts because they lack
> > economic opportunity, and it's the system that is to blame? :-)
>
> If you skip the "Are you saying" part and omit the :-), I would second
> that statement, but there are certainly better groups to discuss this.
> BTW, in case you want to learn more about "the system", I would recommend
> the fine book "Naming the System" by Michael D Yates.
"Hmmm..., I'm forced to work at McDonnald's for the minimum wage. Why
don't I develop a very expensive crack habit that will prevent me from
keeping even that job?" - that's why I had to add the :-), and because
the line is so cliche.
If any of you lived next door to a tribe of crack users, as I have,
I'll listen to your opinions. Otherwise, <insert rude 4-letter USENET
acronym>.
From: Nils M Holm
Subject: Re: can anyone offer Lisp job?
Date:
Message-ID: <dep74d$hvd$1@online.de>
·········@gmail.com wrote:
> "Hmmm..., I'm forced to work at McDonnald's for the minimum wage. Why
> don't I develop a very expensive crack habit that will prevent me from
> keeping even that job?"
Being caught in a system does not mean to understand it.
Drug abuse is not a result of bad payment, but a result of bad
living conditions. Many rich people abuse drugs, too. Poor people,
however, are more likely to live under bad conditions, and they are
certainly more likely to be considered criminals because they abuse
drugs.
> If any of you lived next door to a tribe of crack users, as I have,
> I'll listen to your opinions. Otherwise, <insert rude 4-letter USENET
> acronym>.
Does living next door to "a tribe of crack users" help you understand
why they live in that way?
--
Nils M Holm <···@despammed.com> -- http://www.t3x.org/nmh/
On Sat, 27 Aug 2005 08:09:49 +0000, Nils M Holm wrote:
> Drug abuse is not a result of bad payment, but a result of bad living
> conditions.
Nature? Nurture?
·········@gmail.com writes:
> Tim X wrote:
>
> > I won't even bother going into the social issues that lead to drug
> > abuse and the arrogance of making such sweeping statements without any
> > reference to individual situations and opportunities (or the lack of
> > them).
>
> Are you saying people tend to become crack addicts because they lack
> economic opportunity, and it's the system that is to blame? :-)
>
No, because its far more complex than that. I am saying these people
are victims (for many different reasons). Not all crack addicts are
from poor backgrounds, or black, or whatever. Its a very complex issue
and simplistic statements like saying you should just shoot them
totally overlooks this complexity.
Tim
--
Tim Cross
The e-mail address on this message is FALSE (obviously!). My real e-mail is
to a company in Australia called rapttech and my login is tcross - if you
really need to send mail, you should be able to work it out!
Tim X wrote:
> OK, so do you believe the same about alcohol? What about young
> inexperienced drivers who lack the maturity to understand the dangers
> and how easily you can kill someone in a car, but still drive too fast
> for their experience etc.
I don't have easy solutions to all of the humankind's problems. That's
not the point. But if I were Kent Pitman, I'd write a very long reply
here about 6 million traffic crashes per year in the US alone, followed
by:
Required Viewing: Lost Highway (the tailgating scene).
Tim X <····@spamto.devnul.com> writes:
> ·········@gmail.com writes:
>
>> If they had started tested EVERYONE for HIV back when it was
>> discovered, and isolated the carriers, it would have been stopped back
>> in the 1980s instead of killing 3 million annum now. That's something
>> to think about.
>
> And who would have paid for that? Have you got any idea how much it
> would cost to test every person in just the US? Given that it also has
> a 3 month incubation period, you would also have to test everyone at
> least twice and ensure they didn't have sex in the meantime. Totally
> rediculous suggestion as its simply not practical, not to mention that
> you would have to do it for the entire planet or also ban all travel
> into/out of the US.
Besides, HIV is designed to manage the surpopulation problem.
--
__Pascal Bourguignon__ http://www.informatimago.com/
In deep sleep hear sound,
Cat vomit hairball somewhere.
Will find in morning.
Pascal Bourguignon <····@mouse-potato.com> writes:
> Besides, HIV is designed to manage the surpopulation problem.
The Black Death worked better.
Bring back the Plague !
--
Seek simplicity and mistrust it.
Alfred Whitehead
A witty saying proves nothing.
Voltaire
······@bigpond.net.au wrote:
> Pascal Bourguignon <····@mouse-potato.com> writes:
>
>> Besides, HIV is designed to manage the surpopulation problem.
>
> The Black Death worked better.
> Bring back the Plague !
No, unfortunately the Black Death left a vacuum in which Christianity
could grow stronger than ever. "Repent your sins; thank God for saving
you!"
(I guess post-plague Europe was largely like the US now, a vast country
with enough space for everybody to expand, multiply, and prosper)
--
I believe in Karma. That means I can do bad things to people
all day long and I assume they deserve it.
Dogbert
Thanks for this post!
Kent M Pitman wrote:
[lots of interesting stuff]
> Required Viewing: Gattaca
I was gonna say that while reading the above :)
Might be my favorite movie...
--
I believe in Karma. That means I can do bad things to people
all day long and I assume they deserve it.
Dogbert
>>>>> "KMP" == Kent M Pitman <Kent> writes:
[...]
KMP> The true purpose of privacy in society, I think, as I heard
KMP> someone once say (I _think_ it was John Gilmore in some
KMP> remarks at the first Computers, Freedom and Privacy
KMP> conference in San Francisco, 1990), is to protect people from
KMP> being meddled with over things that don't matter.
1991. http://www.toad.com/gnu/cfp.talk.txt
KMP> That is,
KMP> there is no end to what things people don't like in other
KMP> people--religion, mental health status, etc. And you can't
KMP> always get someone to stop having such prejudices. So as a
KMP> consequence, the more you know about someone, the more you
KMP> can control them by making up rules about what you know.
KMP> Privacy is about understanding that a lot of the problems
KMP> between people can be alleviated by just not having people
KMP> need to know. So even though you can't get people to fear
KMP> certain benign categories of people, you can get them to not
KMP> know who is in those categories, and that can help to reduce
KMP> the problems that result. [...]
I think you meant "not fear" above. I don't know who the last 'you'
is referring to, but I suspect a distinction can be (ought to be?)
made between individuals inquiring about the people they deal/trade
with voluntarily and coercing disclosure/discovery by gov't fiat. On
the flip side, it seems, is the prohibition of inquiry about what is
deemed irrelavant as a pre-condition of trade. I think the latter is a
bad shortcut to take even though it seems politically expedient at times.
cheers,
BM
Bulent Murtezaoglu <··@acm.org> writes:
> >>>>> "KMP" == Kent M Pitman <Kent> writes:
> [...]
> KMP> The true purpose of privacy in society, I think, as I heard
> KMP> someone once say (I _think_ it was John Gilmore in some
> KMP> remarks at the first Computers, Freedom and Privacy
> KMP> conference in San Francisco, 1990), is to protect people from
> KMP> being meddled with over things that don't matter.
>
> 1991. http://www.toad.com/gnu/cfp.talk.txt
Great pointer, thanks. Yep, that's the talk. I was recollecting from
having been there... and I have the audio tape collection. :)
> KMP> That is,
> KMP> there is no end to what things people don't like in other
> KMP> people--religion, mental health status, etc. And you can't
> KMP> always get someone to stop having such prejudices. So as a
> KMP> consequence, the more you know about someone, the more you
> KMP> can control them by making up rules about what you know.
> KMP> Privacy is about understanding that a lot of the problems
> KMP> between people can be alleviated by just not having people
> KMP> need to know. So even though you can't get people to fear
> KMP> certain benign categories of people, you can get them to not
> KMP> know who is in those categories, and that can help to reduce
> KMP> the problems that result. [...]
>
> I think you meant "not fear" above.
Yep... typo. Typical me.
> I don't know who the last 'you'
> is referring to, but I suspect a distinction can be (ought to be?)
> made between individuals inquiring about the people they deal/trade
> with voluntarily and coercing disclosure/discovery by gov't fiat. On
> the flip side, it seems, is the prohibition of inquiry about what is
> deemed irrelavant as a pre-condition of trade. I think the latter is a
> bad shortcut to take even though it seems politically expedient at times.
I agree there are issues there. But in the extreme, what you say about
voluntary inquiry in trade would have perpetuated black segregation in
the US.
There are some cases where US law says, effectively, this: "We do not
assert that these are things that people don't care about. We know
they frequently do care. But not always for the best of reasons. And
so, on balance, we as a people, on our better day, withdraw from
ourselves the right, on our less good days and in moments of weakness,
to care in various circumstances (e.g., hiring or the allocation of
living space) as age, race, gender, religion, ...etc."
I agree it's a card one wants to use carefully. I think there are some
circumstances in which it's overplayed. Smoking is an example. I'd
rather see truth in labeling than prohibitsions there. I'll try to post
something to my politics page [ http://www.nhplace.com/kent/Politics ]
sometime about this, rather than going into it here. Someone remind me
if I forget. But I prefer Libertarian-style solutions if they will work.
Sometimes I think the Libertarians are too dogmatic, so I am not one,
but they have many good ideas about how to keep Government small. Like
everything, it's a matter of striking a balance.
I liked what US politician and wrestler Jess Ventura said about
Government [no exact quote handy, so I'll paraphrase]: that government
should only do for people what they cannot do for themselves. There's
probably some fun we can have with that in the Common Lisp context,
since I'm sure someone will say this argues for turning Common Lisp
into scheme. I'll do battle with my apparent (though perhaps not
actual) hypocrisy on this matter another day. Expect a heavy dose of
pragmatics in that context, though. There's a difference between
discussing political theories and political outcomes. Roe v Wade (the
US basis for the right to an abortion, with rights partitioned/fading
by trimester) is probably no one's "preferred" political theory on the
matter, but it makes a pretty good political outcome. Good compromises
can be like that.
Kent M Pitman wrote:
> I liked what US politician and wrestler Jess Ventura said about
> Government [no exact quote handy, so I'll paraphrase]: that government
> should only do for people what they cannot do for themselves. There's
> probably some fun we can have with that in the Common Lisp context,
> since I'm sure someone will say this argues for turning Common Lisp
> into scheme.
Hehe :)
Actually it's more about the kernel not providing anything that the
userland can do. I think the Lisp kernel isn't that much bigger than
the Scheme kernel. The libraries are just standardized, which is
definitely a good thing.
The Scheme kernel lacks, for instance, a package system. It's hard to
do that in user-space, especially in a uniform way. But then you might
say that Scheme is an experimental language to try things like hygienic
macros (in different implementations), continuations, different module
systems, and different lighter-than-CLOS OO systems.
--
My ideal for the future is to develop a filesystem remote interface
(a la Plan 9) and then have it implemented across the Internet as
the standard rather than HTML. That would be ultimate cool.
Ken Thompson
Ulrich Hobelmann <···········@web.de> writes:
> Kent M Pitman wrote:
> > I liked what US politician and wrestler Jess Ventura said about
> > Government [no exact quote handy, so I'll paraphrase]: that government
> > should only do for people what they cannot do for themselves. There's
> > probably some fun we can have with that in the Common Lisp context,
> > since I'm sure someone will say this argues for turning Common Lisp
> > into scheme.
>
> Hehe :)
>
> Actually it's more about the kernel not providing anything that the
> userland can do. I think the Lisp kernel isn't that much bigger than
> the Scheme kernel. The libraries are just standardized, which is
> definitely a good thing.
>
> The Scheme kernel lacks, for instance, a package system. It's hard to
> do that in user-space, especially in a uniform way. But then you
> might say that Scheme is an experimental language to try things like
> hygienic macros (in different implementations), continuations,
> different module systems, and different lighter-than-CLOS OO systems.
The hard thing for people to understand about CL is how much it was an
exercise in budgets and resources, not in techncal decisions.
I submitted a bunch of change requests you see in the X3J13 issue index
in CLHS. A lot of mine got through. Periodically people would ask
"why yours?" and I'd answer "because I wrote them up. if others did, we
should look at those, too. if there are too many, we should prioritize
them. but we shouldn't not do mine because of hypothesized other needs
that no one has actually raised."
As I look back at code that I even thought was GOOD CODE in Maclisp,
it looks TERRIBLE to me now. It's hard to impress on people how the
notion of The Aesthetic evolves over time, but yet you're intimately
familiar with it if you look to new industries like TV and Movies.
Look at what used to pass for a good movie and what does now.
Actually, the better way to say it was that there are some excellent
old movies and some excellent old TV, but it happened more by accident
or inspiration or art than by Science. The same is true of programming.
There was cool work on programming. EVERYONE should read the original
Algol 60 report, the original Scheme report, Steele's Lambda The Ultimate
series, etc. There were brilliant things done back then. But it was
less a matter of "regular practice" and more a matter of luck, that the
right people were doing it. Nowadays, we've studied what we like and
don't from that era and we have more refined notions that languages
should have kernels, but that notion arises from the earlier ideas, like
even Guy Steele's observation in CLTL1 that the compiler semantics and
interpreter semantics of CL were the same. They weren't in Maclisp.
In Maclisp, compiling code ran one processor over it and interpreting
it another, and the whole issue of variable scope was handled VERY
differently because there wasn't the notion of Language As King.
The implementation was king, and the language definition followed from
understanding the implementation.
(This, incidentally, is why I don't like the CLRFI model. Languages
and specs should stand free of implementation. Having an
implementation is an irrelevance to me when discussing languages. A
language idea is either good or not in the abstract--someone's
decision to implement it or not is one kind of proof it can be made,
but it doesn't give credence to an idea. Good language ideas are, by
nature, implementable. But there are many ways one can show something
implementable short of creating an implementation. Anyway, I
digress.)
But the notion that a kernel language was an important idea did not
precede languages becoming large. No one envisioned languages GETTING
large until it happened, and only then as an effect of bookkeeping
did it seem sensible to approach that. Eulisp confronted this earlier,
but even then they got side-tracked on the serious issue of whether
the layering should be "implementation" or "spec". That is, the inner
layer was often described to me as "scheme-like" and then I'd always
ask "oh, so Eulisp is a superset of Scheme" and then I'd be told by some
in the project "no, the kernel isn't a subset of the language, it's
an implementation substrate for the language". But that seemed to vary
depending on whether you talked to the guys implementing the kernel or
the layered parts. Everyone felt their part was central, it seemed to
me, and I suppose ultimately something came of all that, but it isn't
a major player in the world lisp market today, and I suspect at least
to some degree because it didn't have this detail down. Not that it wasn't
a good idea, but the details matter.
The time when CL was first asked to be modular (different than small, there
were people who wanted small much earlier, but they were making what
appeared to be more drastic requests like "don't address that area" not
"do it in modules") was late in the X3J13 standards process, around 1988
or later (1988 being the theoretical "feature freeze" for the 1994 spec,
though we made "essential changes" up to about 1992). There was pressure
to make some components optional, too, but that again was not presented
as a coherent modular componentry--more of a "do this part if you want
and leave out other parts if you don't want". That was still kind of
whimsy from a theoretical design point of view, and didn't explain how
things would plug-and-play if one implementation wanted CLOS and all its
objects based on it, but others wanted no CLOS and didn't want anything to
hint that CLOS was there. That isn't a kernel issue, it's a mess.
The first rational proposal for a layered Common Lisp arrived late in the
public review process. It came from Paul Robertson (author of Robertson
Common Lisp, which later became Symbolics CLOE for the i386). Paul did
the hard work of separating all the parts of the language into different
parts and suggested some theory of layering. But it was controversial in
its details and it was too late in the process for him to convince
everyone. There was an echo of the same fear that we'd heard from earlier
teachers that if we made a "teaching subset" it would work for one teacher
but not anothers. Like "prayer in school", it sounds good in principle
but when you get to details, not everyone agrees on what's in and what's
out.
The sense among the X3J13 committee, as I recall it (and I'm obliged
to say that no one can speak officially for it on such matters--I'm
just offering my personal opinion/recollection) was that layering could be
retrofitted by implementations, and so the decision to leave out layering
was not fatal to the ultimate success of CL.
Now, that doesn't mean implementations have or will. And you should be
careful to understand that I'm not saying that the failure to DO
layering won't ultimately be fatal. Maybe it will, but I think that
needs to be shown. But my point is that the failure to do it is not
just on the designers. Nothing in the spec says you can't subset
things, you just have to identify subsets. Nothing says you can't do
precisely as Paul Robertson sugggested and make some tag for REQUIRE
that if you use you get the whole language even though there ware ways
to get parts of it under other situations.
And the presence of those freeware things that I lament so much give
me moral leverage to say back to each and every person who whines "but
I'm not an implementor, I can't do that" that "you could be an
implementor, just pick up a freeware CL and start hacking. build
something that shows the kernel if that's what you think is
economically worth doing". If you find you have a day job and mouths
to feed and not enough time to do it because no one is paying for
kernelness, then maybe you'll see the problem the vendors have now.
Or if you find yourself beating the vendors in sales because now you
have CL done right and it's all anyone ever wanted, you'll have done a
wonderful thing for everyone.
Then again, you might try, and it might be cool, and still it might
not affect things. Look at how cool CMU's python compiler is and how
many people have rushed to prefer that as a result.
<······@nhplace.com> wrote:
> Then again, you might try, and it might be cool, and still it might
> not affect things. Look at how cool CMU's python compiler is and how
> many people have rushed to prefer that as a result.
Err... What a bizarre thing to say. Quite a lot of people prefer
Python-based compilers (mainly CMUCL and SBCL). To get a feeling for
how many, we might consider "using" and "intending to use" as proxies
for "preferring" an implementation:
http://www.niksula.cs.hut.fi/~tsiivola/alu-questionnaire-statistics.html
--
Juho Snellman
"Premature profiling is the root of all evil."
Juho Snellman <······@iki.fi> writes:
> <······@nhplace.com> wrote:
> > Then again, you might try, and it might be cool, and still it might
> > not affect things. Look at how cool CMU's python compiler is and how
> > many people have rushed to prefer that as a result.
>
> Err... What a bizarre thing to say. Quite a lot of people prefer
> Python-based compilers (mainly CMUCL and SBCL).
But I said nothing about how many people preferred these, especially
relative to other implementations. What I said, or meant to say,
was that even with that preference, it wasn't the key to unlocking
the floodgates that would send millions flocking to CL... even these
stats show that.
To get a feeling for
> how many, we might consider "using" and "intending to use" as proxies
> for "preferring" an implementation:
>
> http://www.niksula.cs.hut.fi/~tsiivola/alu-questionnaire-statistics.html
According to this chart, even with the high entry barrier of commercial
fees, the number of people who preferr SBCL and CMU-CL to LW and Allegro
is not even a whole number multiplier, it's just a percentage. Such a
percentage, it seems to me, can EASILY be explained by their freeness
and not their speed. I don't know if you have a chart from the time when
CMU Python was actively being worked on, but I don't think it would show
that the compiler alone was causing people to flock from the commercial
lisps to that free Lisp. Additional barriers to entry on the CMU platform
were, as I recall customers citing, the lack of focus on GUI (i.e., the
resources at the time went into compiler, not GUI), the lack of platform
support, the lack of commercial support, etc.
Look, I certainly do NOT want to be caught in the position of trying to
claim that there's something wrong with this compiler or these
implementations. If you read back through my remarks in this and other
messages, you may be able to see that I have nothing but respect for the
absolutely cool things the CMU crowd did to show that CL can be compiled
in interesting ways.
All I'm doing is making the simple observation that historically, when
this was at its prime, (a) customers didn't abandon paid implementations
for it [even when processors were slower and the need for performance was
at its prime], and (b) commercial vendors did not rush to license it [even
when in principle it could have been argued it would give substantial
commercial value].
I do think some ideas catch on slowly and grow gradually to be well-accepted.
I hope that's true here.
But all of this discussion started in the context of people talking about
whether a simple CL kernel would be a great idea. And my feeling is that
it would have the same kind of "cool, but not the key" effect. I might be
wrong, of course. I often am, and I accept that I am, notwithstanding
remarks by people on other threads who say I'm afraid to be challenged.
One reason I post to this group is the number of people with good points of
view different than my own from which I learn a great many things on a daily
basis. But geez, if I'm wrong, don't just cite statistics, rush out to show
me that making a well-defined kernel is what's standing in the way of
Lisp and the CMU Python compiler crushing ... well, just to be spitefully
confusing in terminology, that OTHER Python thing that Ron Garret keeps
raving about. :)
(Or maybe there is a link between the Python language and the CMU Python
compiler I don't know about--in which case, someone DEFINITELY should
clarify this for me, since the similarity of naming has bothered me
forever and I've never had time to track down the etymologies...)
I wasn't trying to stop this experiment. I outlined how I thought it
could be done. I just wanted people to know my best understanding of
why it hadn't been done until now, so they wouldn't think we in the
community were not looney for not having tried it already.
That's how it is with established wisdom. Sometimes it's just the
right thing and everyone knows it. And sometimes it's totally wrong
and just no one's gotten around to testing it to see it's all a sham.
If someone tests established wisdom and it holds up, they shouldn't
feel ashamed. It's good for the world for someone to run a test now
and then. And if someone tests it and improves things, the old-timers
shouldn't feel ashamed either. Sometimes it takes a fresh look to see
something differently and that's how things progress. It's all just a
matter of resources. You can't go challenging every world truth every
day. It doesn't make sense. But sometimes you have to spot check
cobwebby assumptions. That makes sense, too.
Science, if that's what we practice, isn't about asserting truths. It's
about outlining what it would take to disprove something and then seeing
if someone will. At some point, people stop trying to disprove something
because they haven't the free resources to waste to challenging it, so
they move to challenging other things. And the things left unchallenged
become more accepted as that happens, but never truly fact. It's the best
we can do.
<······@nhplace.com> wrote:
> Juho Snellman <······@iki.fi> writes:
>> Err... What a bizarre thing to say. Quite a lot of people prefer
>> Python-based compilers (mainly CMUCL and SBCL).
>
> But I said nothing about how many people preferred these, especially
> relative to other implementations. What I said, or meant to say,
> was that even with that preference, it wasn't the key to unlocking
> the floodgates that would send millions flocking to CL... even these
> stats show that.
Ok. Especially considering the previous paragraph about competition in
the market, I really didn't see any way to read that except "nice
technology, but everyone uses other implementations for real work".
Which for all I know might have been the case 10 years ago, but is far
from the truth now. Since anecdotal evidence is generally worthless, I
thought I'd cite the only statistics on CL implementation use that I
know of. Sorry for the misinterpretation.
I think I'll pass on the inevitable discussion on high quality free
implementations being the key to opening the floodgates... :-)
> To get a feeling for
>> how many, we might consider "using" and "intending to use" as proxies
>> for "preferring" an implementation:
>>
>> http://www.niksula.cs.hut.fi/~tsiivola/alu-questionnaire-statistics.html
>
> According to this chart, even with the high entry barrier of commercial
> fees, the number of people who preferr SBCL and CMU-CL to LW and Allegro
> is not even a whole number multiplier, it's just a percentage. Such a
> percentage, it seems to me, can EASILY be explained by their freeness
> and not their speed.
Sure, and there are also issues that move the numbers the other way
(some implementations run on Windows, crippled free trials considered
as use, sample selection), and some which could go either way (doesn't
measure the amount of use, just any sort of use). Since the source of
the data is free form answers to slightly vague questions for a
one-off survey with a sample size in the low hundreds, any deep
analysis of the results is going to be futile, the best you can do is
say "implementation FOO is pretty popular". But at least it beats
anecdotal data :-)
> I don't know if you have a chart from the time when CMU Python was
> actively being worked on, but I don't think it would show that the
> compiler alone was causing people to flock from the commercial lisps
> to that free Lisp. Additional barriers to entry on the CMU platform
> were, as I recall customers citing, the lack of focus on GUI (i.e.,
> the resources at the time went into compiler, not GUI), the lack of
> platform support, the lack of commercial support, etc.
Right. Amusingly enough these days there's even less focus on GUI, no
production-quality released Windows port (though the other 5% of the
market is well covered), and no central corporate entity taking money
in exchange for support. These barriers seem to be much less of an
issue these days, despite not having markedly changed.
--
Juho Snellman
"Premature profiling is the root of all evil."
>>>>> "KMP" == Kent M Pitman <Kent> writes:
[...]
KMP> According to this chart, even with the high entry barrier of
KMP> commercial fees, the number of people who preferr SBCL and
KMP> CMU-CL to LW and Allegro is not even a whole number
KMP> multiplier, it's just a percentage. Such a percentage, it
KMP> seems to me, can EASILY be explained by their freeness and
KMP> not their speed.
I agree, but a whole number multiplier could be explained the same way.
Perhaps one could do a platform survey and that would show how needing
to deliver on Windows is skewing the results and what folks who do
server-side stuff are using.
KMP> I don't know if you have a chart from the
KMP> time when CMU Python was actively being worked on, but I
KMP> don't think it would show that the compiler alone was causing
KMP> people to flock from the commercial lisps to that free Lisp.
That was a different time and the marketplace was different. We didn't
have people delivering stuff on Windows, we didn't have linux machines
at home etc. etc.
[...]
KMP> Additional barriers to entry on the CMU platform were, as I
KMP> recall customers citing, the lack of focus on GUI (i.e., the
KMP> resources at the time went into compiler, not GUI), the lack
KMP> of platform support, the lack of commercial support, etc.
Actually I wonder what would have happened if active/funded work at
CMU had coincided/overlapped with the renewed interest we are seeing
for CL. Garnet, IMHO, was a good system and the documentation was
excellent (compared to what was available for CLIM back then). BTW,
there _is_ commercial support from Scieneer now for their fork of CMUCL.
[...]
KMP> All I'm doing is making the simple observation that
KMP> historically, when this was at its prime, (a) customers
KMP> didn't abandon paid implementations for it [even when
KMP> processors were slower and the need for performance was at
KMP> its prime], and (b) commercial vendors did not rush to
KMP> license it [even when in principle it could have been argued
KMP> it would give substantial commercial value].
I don't know how relevant (b) would have been as it seems to be in
the public domain. Perhaps it was different back then?
[...]
KMP> (Or maybe there is a link between the Python language and the
KMP> CMU Python compiler I don't know about--in which case,
KMP> someone DEFINITELY should clarify this for me, since the
KMP> similarity of naming has bothered me forever and I've never
KMP> had time to track down the etymologies...) [...]
There is none AFAIK. BTW, we now also have two PCLs that get talked
about here.
cheers,
BM
Bulent Murtezaoglu <··@acm.org> writes:
> >>>>> "KMP" == Kent M Pitman <Kent> writes:
> [...]
> KMP> According to this chart, even with the high entry barrier of
> KMP> commercial fees, the number of people who preferr SBCL and
> KMP> CMU-CL to LW and Allegro is not even a whole number
> KMP> multiplier, it's just a percentage. Such a percentage, it
> KMP> seems to me, can EASILY be explained by their freeness and
> KMP> not their speed.
>
> I agree, but a whole number multiplier could be explained the same way.
> Perhaps one could do a platform survey and that would show how needing
> to deliver on Windows is skewing the results and what folks who do
> server-side stuff are using.
Sure. I didn't mean to say that the graph implied anything, only to use
my remark to say that the graph doesn't refute anything either.
And my only original point that pulled in Python at all, which keeps
getting lost as the conversation morphs, was that there may not be a
simple answer to all the world's problem through one simple "oh, we
forgot to do x" kind of action. Beyond that, I really hadn't intended
to opine, and people are reading as much extra into my remarks as I was
half-jokingly reading into that graph.
> KMP> I don't know if you have a chart from the
> KMP> time when CMU Python was actively being worked on, but I
> KMP> don't think it would show that the compiler alone was causing
> KMP> people to flock from the commercial lisps to that free Lisp.
>
> That was a different time and the marketplace was different. We didn't
> have people delivering stuff on Windows, we didn't have linux machines
> at home etc. etc.
Surely this is so. Which is why having that graph partitioned by date
would be useful. It might not prove anything even then, of course,
but it would help. But if your point here is that it might be time to
try some experiments again, I don't disagree. Let's just not raise the
expectation level so high beforehand that even a success seems ho hum, and
that a failure seems a refutation of our culture. I try to set the bar low on
expectation so that excitement can come from after-the-fact achievement,
not advance speculation. That's just a marketing tactic, but in an era of
vaporware all about, I prefer it. Others might disagree--SOME of them even
legitimately. ;)
> [...]
> KMP> Additional barriers to entry on the CMU platform were, as I
> KMP> recall customers citing, the lack of focus on GUI (i.e., the
> KMP> resources at the time went into compiler, not GUI), the lack
> KMP> of platform support, the lack of commercial support, etc.
>
> Actually I wonder what would have happened if active/funded work at
> CMU had coincided/overlapped with the renewed interest we are seeing
> for CL. Garnet, IMHO, was a good system and the documentation was
> excellent (compared to what was available for CLIM back then). BTW,
> there _is_ commercial support from Scieneer now for their fork of CMUCL.
I've often wondered that about a great many things in computer science that
seem to have peaked at the wrong time. Honeywell Multics sure seemed doomed
from the start, building a high-security machine in a world that didn't have
anyone trying to attack it, and a 72 bit architecture in a world that couldn't
afford the hardware...
> [...]
> KMP> All I'm doing is making the simple observation that
> KMP> historically, when this was at its prime, (a) customers
> KMP> didn't abandon paid implementations for it [even when
> KMP> processors were slower and the need for performance was at
> KMP> its prime], and (b) commercial vendors did not rush to
> KMP> license it [even when in principle it could have been argued
> KMP> it would give substantial commercial value].
>
> I don't know how relevant (b) would have been as it seems to be in
> the public domain. Perhaps it was different back then?
Well, if it was in the public domain, you'd think the rush would have
been even faster if it was the key to a market. But the story is
always more complicated.
> [...]
> KMP> (Or maybe there is a link between the Python language and the
> KMP> CMU Python compiler I don't know about--in which case,
> KMP> someone DEFINITELY should clarify this for me, since the
> KMP> similarity of naming has bothered me forever and I've never
> KMP> had time to track down the etymologies...) [...]
>
> There is none AFAIK. BTW, we now also have two PCLs that get talked
> about here.
That's reassuring.
Bulent Murtezaoglu wrote:
> KMP> (Or maybe there is a link between the Python language and the
> KMP> CMU Python compiler I don't know about--in which case,
> KMP> someone DEFINITELY should clarify this for me, since the
> KMP> similarity of naming has bothered me forever and I've never
> KMP> had time to track down the etymologies...) [...]
Hm, they say that the Python language is sooo dynamic that it can't be
compiled well. While that's a good excuse, Lisp does fine with its
dynamicity. I don't know Python but wonder if it could be made to run
on top of CLOS?
> There is none AFAIK. BTW, we now also have two PCLs that get talked
> about here.
The book, and what else?
--
My ideal for the future is to develop a filesystem remote interface
(a la Plan 9) and then have it implemented across the Internet as
the standard rather than HTML. That would be ultimate cool.
Ken Thompson
Ulrich Hobelmann wrote:
> Bulent Murtezaoglu wrote:
>
>> KMP> (Or maybe there is a link between the Python language and the
>> KMP> CMU Python compiler I don't know about--in which case,
>> KMP> someone DEFINITELY should clarify this for me, since the
>> KMP> similarity of naming has bothered me forever and I've never
>> KMP> had time to track down the etymologies...) [...]
>
>
> Hm, they say that the Python language is sooo dynamic that it can't be
> compiled well. While that's a good excuse, Lisp does fine with its
> dynamicity. I don't know Python but wonder if it could be made to run
> on top of CLOS?
>
>> There is none AFAIK. BTW, we now also have two PCLs that get talked
>> about here.
>
>
> The book, and what else?
>
Portable Common Loops, which was what eventually evolved into CLOS. PCL
was developed to provide an object system for CLtL1 Lisps, and was the
breeding ground for the MOP.
AFAIK, SBCL and many others use PCL as the basis for their CLOS
implementations.
--
Drew Crampsie
drewc at tech dot coop
"Never mind the bollocks -- here's the sexp's tools."
-- Karl A. Krueger on comp.lang.lisp
>>>>> "UH" == Ulrich Hobelmann <···········@web.de> writes:
[...]
>> There is none AFAIK. BTW, we now also have two PCLs that get
>> talked about here.
UH> The book, and what else?
Portable Common Loops.
http://www.faqs.org/faqs/lisp-faq/part5/section-1.html
It isn't that ancient, and code derived from it is still in use.
cheers,
BM
Ulrich Hobelmann <···········@web.de> writes:
> Kent M Pitman wrote:
> > I liked what US politician and wrestler Jess Ventura said about
> > Government [no exact quote handy, so I'll paraphrase]: that government
> > should only do for people what they cannot do for themselves. There's
> > probably some fun we can have with that in the Common Lisp context,
> > since I'm sure someone will say this argues for turning Common Lisp
> > into scheme.
>
> Hehe :)
>
> Actually it's more about the kernel not providing anything that the
> userland can do. I think the Lisp kernel isn't that much bigger than
> the Scheme kernel. The libraries are just standardized, which is
> definitely a good thing.
>
> The Scheme kernel lacks, for instance, a package system. It's hard to
> do that in user-space, especially in a uniform way. But then you
> might say that Scheme is an experimental language to try things like
> hygienic macros (in different implementations), continuations,
> different module systems, and different lighter-than-CLOS OO systems.
>
Ah yes, but is that what us the people really want?
Tim
--
Tim Cross
The e-mail address on this message is FALSE (obviously!). My real e-mail is
to a company in Australia called rapttech and my login is tcross - if you
really need to send mail, you should be able to work it out!
Kent,
I think that was very well put and some very important issues pushed
forward which all of us would benefit from if we sit down and think
about them - we don't even have to agree, but we should think about
them.
There is a lot of prejudice out there towards mental illness - mainly
due to ignorance. Many would be shocked to know that about 1 in every
4 people will experience some form of mental illness during their
life. Before moving into programming I worked in mental health and
know that around 90% of mental health cases affect nobody tother than
the individual afflicted (and perhaps their families).
I am becoming quite concerned by the apparent social changes which
seem to be occuring in developed countries like the US and
Australia. The "war on terror" is particularly disturbing as it does
seem to involve a large elment of making us afraid and prepared to
give up some very important liberties. Only yesterday I heard the UK
is planning legislation which would make religious jokes illegal,
Australia has adopted some very disturbing immigration policies which
have seen Australian citizens deported or detained in "detention
centres" (jails) - interestingly two of the most publicised cases
involved people with mental illness.
There seems to be a push towards creating some homogeneous society in
which we are all clones and behave the same way - "difference" is
being sold as something to be wary of. Back in the 80's, as a
programmer, it didn't really matter how you dressed or what your
values were as long as you were good at what you did. I use to work
with some very strange people that socially lacked some skill, but as
programmers and problem solvers, they were quite incredible. At my
previous job, we had a pretty good environment. Then the company was
sold and the new management immediately made it mandatory for all
programmers to dress in suits and ware ties. When I challenged this
requirement, I was told it was necessary because it made us more
"professional". I tried to argue that how we dressed was irrelevant
and that professionalism was about how we did our job not how we
looked (never mind the fact we were in a back room and nobody ever saw
us anyway!. In the end I left (as did most of the others).
I also have a problem with the level to which "the company" is
beginning to intrude into our private lives. There are now companies
in Australia which will not employ smokers. While I have no problem
with laws preventing smoking in places which could result in
non-smokers being affected and actually think its a good thing, I have
a real problem with employers dictating what I can and cannot do
outside the workplace. This could also be extended to drugs. As long
as what you do in your private life doesn't affect your ability to do
the job, the employer should have no say.
I also think the media has a huge responsibility for this change. I
saw an interview on one of the current affairs programs a week ago in
which some Muslim youths were interviewd. One of them said that
"Muslims would never integrate". This caused a bit of an uproar. It
turns out that what the youth actually said was "Muslims would never
integrate to the extent of other groups because some of their values
prevent them from adopting socially accepted and encouraged behavior,
such as drinking alcohol. The program deliberately misrepresented what
was said in order to create a stir - something I consider socially
irresponsible.
I now work in a position which requires me to manage 15 staff. some of
them would be considered to be "on the edge" socially and even
mentally. However, they all do a good job. I will admit they can be a
bit difficult at times, but that difficulty is worth accepting for
good work. Previous management of the group had failed badly and I
believe thats because previous managers tried to force the staff into
a conservative "front of house" type group - hassleing about dress,
prfessionalism, client service etc. My argument is that they are back
of house and that what constitutes professionalism for back of house
is completely different to what is required for those in front of
house positions which deal with clients/public. What I want is quality
problem solving, programming and testing, not suits, ties and polished
shoes! If the job gets done and done well, I really don't care about
what you get upto in your private life, what you wear, what style of
hair cut you have or your beliefs on religion, politics, drugs,
sexuality etc.
Alvin Toffler argued in "The Third Wave' that technology could be
great because it would give us greater liberties and freedom. Rather
than mass produced goods, we could have personally customized products
at the same price. We would all be working from home a lot more, which
would mean we would socialise more as our social needs would not be
met in the workplace and we would become more diverse in the way we
looked and our beliefs because we wouldn't have the somewhat constant
and standardised social influences most of us are exposed to at
work. Unfortunately, it appears to be going the other way - large call
centres have replaced factories, customization has been lost in favor
of cheapre mass production and difference is being pushed as a threat
and something to be feared rather than something which might result in
new ideas, perspectives and opportunities.
Tim
--
Tim Cross
The e-mail address on this message is FALSE (obviously!). My real e-mail is
to a company in Australia called rapttech and my login is tcross - if you
really need to send mail, you should be able to work it out!
Tim X <····@spamto.devnul.com> writes:
> I use to work
> with some very strange people that socially lacked some skill, but as
> programmers and problem solvers, they were quite incredible.
I think all good programmers, almost of necessity, have a "healthy"
(and I use the term with some irony) amount of obsessive-compulsive
nature. This is an essential characteristic of doing battle with the
Computer, which has been called the "relentless judge of
incompleteness". In a sense, one can only reasonably confront the
obsessive desire of a computer to fail with an obsessive desire to
succeed. :)
> I now work in a position which requires me to manage 15 staff. some of
> them would be considered to be "on the edge" socially and even
> mentally. However, they all do a good job. I will admit they can be a
> bit difficult at times, but that difficulty is worth accepting for
> good work.
I agree this is often the case. It kind of harkens back to the old
saying "it's a poor craftsman that blames his tools". Managers ought
more often think themselves craftsmen than they seem to. Some of this
comes down to an almost religious allegiance to theory X
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_X
rather than a more flexible application of theory X or Y as appropriate,
but also it relates to the self-image of a person who is willing to think
that theory X is always appropriate--that is, someone who thinks he/she is
"above" the programmer, rather than merely working in "matrix mode",
enabling success along one axis while programmers enable success along
another.
>> Alvin Toffler argued in "The Third Wave' that technology could be
> great because it would give us greater liberties and freedom.
I can't address this without talking about how I think free software has
helped to drive down the average economic clout of programmers, and thus
reduced their bargaining potential enormously. So, since I don't want to
open that can of worms tonight, I'll not say anything at all on the matter.
Almost. ;)
(I think you make some good observations in there, though.)
Tim X <····@spamto.devnul.com> writes:
> There is a lot of prejudice out there towards mental illness - mainly
> due to ignorance.
Right.
On the other hand, two doctors I know of were killed by
mentally disturbed patients.
--
Seek simplicity and mistrust it.
Alfred Whitehead
A witty saying proves nothing.
Voltaire
Tim X <····@spamto.devnul.com> writes:
> [...] Then the company was
> sold and the new management immediately made it mandatory for all
> programmers to dress in suits and ware ties. When I challenged this
> requirement, I was told it was necessary because it made us more
> "professional". I tried to argue that how we dressed was irrelevant
> and that professionalism was about how we did our job not how we
> looked (never mind the fact we were in a back room and nobody ever saw
> us anyway!. In the end I left (as did most of the others).
Read Jeff Schmidt's "Discplined Minds. a critical look at salaried
professionals and the soul battering system that shapes their lives."
Professionalism is about conformity, nothing else.
--
__Pascal Bourguignon__ http://www.informatimago.com/
In deep sleep hear sound,
Cat vomit hairball somewhere.
Will find in morning.
Pascal Bourguignon wrote:
> Tim X <····@spamto.devnul.com> writes:
>>[...] Then the company was
>>sold and the new management immediately made it mandatory for all
>>programmers to dress in suits and ware ties.
did they actually insist on suits and ties specifically
or on a *formal* dress code? in the latter case, I wonder
if one could protest by going ethnic, i.e., kilt or djelaba
or whatever your fancy or ethnic background (djelaba being a lot
more confortable -- though it is easier to moon your boss with
a kilt if need be); actually, I would be tempted to do it
even (actually especially) if they were specific about the
suit & tie thing protesting eurocentrist cultural imperialism
and see if I could drive them nuts :-) (but then I have fired
once or twice and quit abruptly other times, so don't take
career advices from me :-)))
I am getting waaay off topic, and being a newbie, I am feeling
guilty here, my apologies,
--Sylvain
Sylvain <····@att.net> writes:
> Pascal Bourguignon wrote:
>> Tim X <····@spamto.devnul.com> writes:
>>>[...] Then the company was
>>>sold and the new management immediately made it mandatory for all
>>> programmers to dress in suits and ware ties.
>
> did they actually insist on suits and ties specifically
> or on a *formal* dress code? in the latter case, I wonder
> if one could protest by going ethnic, i.e., kilt or djelaba
> or whatever your fancy or ethnic background (djelaba being a lot
> more confortable -- though it is easier to moon your boss with
> a kilt if need be); actually, I would be tempted to do it
> even (actually especially) if they were specific about the
> suit & tie thing protesting eurocentrist cultural imperialism
> and see if I could drive them nuts :-) (but then I have fired
> once or twice and quit abruptly other times, so don't take
> career advices from me :-)))
Ties are worn with kilts too.
What about formal ethnic Hawaian dress?
Would we restricted to our own heritage or can we choose our ethnicity?
--
__Pascal Bourguignon__ http://www.informatimago.com/
Kitty like plastic.
Confuses for litter box.
Don't leave tarp around.
From: Robert Uhl
Subject: Re: can anyone offer Lisp job?
Date:
Message-ID: <m3acj3rmix.fsf@4dv.net>
Pascal Bourguignon <····@mouse-potato.com> writes:
>
> Would we restricted to our own heritage or can we choose our
> ethnicity?
My corporation allows transvestites to wear their dresses to work, yet
will not allow me to wear my 16th c. English, 15th c. Italian or 9th
c. Anglo-Saxon clothing to the office. This irks me.
For my money, dressing properly is a way of paying respect to the
occasion and to those around one; that's why we dress for funerals and
weddings, and why we should dress for work.
--
Robert Uhl <http://public.xdi.org/=ruhl>
Old Russian Proverb: If you see a Bulgarian on the street, beat him;
he will know why.
Pascal Bourguignon wrote:
>> Ties are worn with kilts too.
indeed
>
> What about formal ethnic Hawaian dress?
> Would we restricted to our own heritage or can we choose our ethnicity?
I wouldn't want to be constrained by genetics! :-)
--Sylvain
Pascal Bourguignon <····@mouse-potato.com> writes:
> What about formal ethnic Hawaian dress?
> Would we restricted to our own heritage or can we choose our ethnicity?
I like the idea of turning up to work in a grass skirt...
--
Seek simplicity and mistrust it.
Alfred Whitehead
A witty saying proves nothing.
Voltaire
Pascal Bourguignon <····@mouse-potato.com> writes:
> Tim X <····@spamto.devnul.com> writes:
> > [...] Then the company was
> > sold and the new management immediately made it mandatory for all
> > programmers to dress in suits and ware ties. When I challenged this
> > requirement, I was told it was necessary because it made us more
> > "professional". I tried to argue that how we dressed was irrelevant
> > and that professionalism was about how we did our job not how we
> > looked (never mind the fact we were in a back room and nobody ever saw
> > us anyway!. In the end I left (as did most of the others).
>
> Read Jeff Schmidt's "Discplined Minds. a critical look at salaried
> professionals and the soul battering system that shapes their lives."
>
> Professionalism is about conformity, nothing else.
I don't actually agree. Conformity and the desire to create it is
often wrapped in a legitimising blanket called professionalism, but I
think real professionalism is not related to conformity - it is about
doing something in a ethical, consistent and reliable manner (plus a
lot of other things).
those wanting conformity call it professionalism, but that doesn't
mean thats what professionalism is.
Tim
--
Tim Cross
The e-mail address on this message is FALSE (obviously!). My real e-mail is
to a company in Australia called rapttech and my login is tcross - if you
really need to send mail, you should be able to work it out!
Tim X wrote:
> I also think the media has a huge responsibility for this change. I
> saw an interview on one of the current affairs programs a week ago in
> which some Muslim youths were interviewd. One of them said that
> "Muslims would never integrate". This caused a bit of an uproar. It
> turns out that what the youth actually said was "Muslims would never
> integrate to the extent of other groups because some of their values
> prevent them from adopting socially accepted and encouraged behavior,
> such as drinking alcohol. The program deliberately misrepresented what
> was said in order to create a stir - something I consider socially
> irresponsible.
So what? Encouraging group pressure (drinking alcohol, smoking,
whatever) is the vilest thing ever. I casually drink, but even if I did
not, that wouldn't change my social behavior. You can go out, drink
Pepsi, and drive, not?
Not integrating, and not integrating because they religiously refuse
getting drunk are different, but the accusations are both really bad.
Actually in the second case the muslims have a reason (though I doubt
not drinking would hinder their integration).
> Alvin Toffler argued in "The Third Wave' that technology could be
> great because it would give us greater liberties and freedom. Rather
> than mass produced goods, we could have personally customized products
> at the same price. We would all be working from home a lot more, which
> would mean we would socialise more as our social needs would not be
> met in the workplace and we would become more diverse in the way we
> looked and our beliefs because we wouldn't have the somewhat constant
> and standardised social influences most of us are exposed to at
> work. Unfortunately, it appears to be going the other way - large call
> centres have replaced factories, customization has been lost in favor
> of cheapre mass production and difference is being pushed as a threat
> and something to be feared rather than something which might result in
> new ideas, perspectives and opportunities.
Well, but now that mass production is leaving the G8 countries, we need
new ways to keep the customers' money here. Expect more custom products
in the future. Also, I think in today's post-bubble world people start
caring more about actual values instead of only superficial looks (well,
a tiny little bit). The internet enables communication with having to
wear a suit, and lots of professional work is getting done without
needless distractions. We're going slow, but we're going. The
corporate world is turning down again. (for the marketing blabla-view
on this, see gapingvoid.com)
--
I believe in Karma. That means I can do bad things to people
all day long and I assume they deserve it.
Dogbert
Ulrich Hobelmann <···········@web.de> writes:
> Tim X wrote:
> > I also think the media has a huge responsibility for this change. I
> > saw an interview on one of the current affairs programs a week ago in
> > which some Muslim youths were interviewd. One of them said that
> > "Muslims would never integrate". This caused a bit of an uproar. It
> > turns out that what the youth actually said was "Muslims would never
> > integrate to the extent of other groups because some of their values
> > prevent them from adopting socially accepted and encouraged behavior,
> > such as drinking alcohol. The program deliberately misrepresented what
> > was said in order to create a stir - something I consider socially
> > irresponsible.
>
> So what? Encouraging group pressure (drinking alcohol, smoking,
> whatever) is the vilest thing ever. I casually drink, but even if I
> did not, that wouldn't change my social behavior. You can go out,
> drink Pepsi, and drive, not?
>
> Not integrating, and not integrating because they religiously refuse
> getting drunk are different, but the accusations are both really
> bad. Actually in the second case the muslims have a reason (though I
> doubt not drinking would hinder their integration).
>
I think the whole integration argument is wrong. As long as people
obey the laws of the country they are in, why should we insist they
integrate? Its just another form of peer pressure.
The issue was was putting forward above was mainly about the media
twisting reality to create ratings/sales while taking no
responsability for the fact that many people would take what they
broadcast as being true and thereby giving them an excuse to treat a
minority badly. It is totally unacceptable.
Tim
--
Tim Cross
The e-mail address on this message is FALSE (obviously!). My real e-mail is
to a company in Australia called rapttech and my login is tcross - if you
really need to send mail, you should be able to work it out!
On Fri, 12 Aug 2005 19:28:16 -0700, ·······@Yahoo.Com (Robert Maas,
see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t) wrote:
>
>> Anyway, if I have to code with the devil, I choose Java for that.
>
>With BeanShell, Java is a decent development environment. Have you
>tried BeanShell yet? If the modem in my Laptop still worked I might
>offer to give you a copy of my elisp functions and key bindings for
>passing the current region to the FIFO, and the Java code to read from
>the FIFO and parse-eval-print whatever it gets, inside try-catch block
>to protect against those common syntax errors during development.
>Or if you live near Sunnyvale you can come visit me and let me show you
>the emacs file containing that code and you can manually transcribe it
>to your computer.
Nobody in industry is using Lisp. Nobody in industry is using Emacs.
Everybody is using Java. Everybody is using Eclipse for Java.
Everybody is using Ant, JUnit and Hibernate. Everybody is using Java
Objects. Everybody is using J2EE. Everybody is using Oracle Java
development environment. Everybody is using SOAP and Web Services.
Everybody is using XML.
All the above is available for free download.
Your skills are obsolete. Go back to school. Not for 5 day "booot
camp", but for year or two. Go to Community College if you want to
pay less. Bring your knowledge of currently used tools and
technology to the level of fresh college graduate. With their skills
and your experience you will be interesting candidate. With your
skills but knowledge that was up-to-date 15 years ago nobody will
hire you.
A.L.
BR wrote:
> On Sat, 13 Aug 2005 08:13:35 -0500, A.L wrote:
>
>
>>Nobody in industry is using Lisp.
>
>
> An ironic thing to say in a lisp forum.
And false, too.
Paul
On Sat, 13 Aug 2005 10:16:38 -0500, "Paul F. Dietz" <·····@dls.net>
wrote:
>BR wrote:
>> On Sat, 13 Aug 2005 08:13:35 -0500, A.L wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Nobody in industry is using Lisp.
>>
>>
>> An ironic thing to say in a lisp forum.
>
>And false, too.
>
> Paul
Yes. My fault Of course, EVERYBODY is using Lisp. Demand for Lisp
programemrs far excceeds supply.
Make believe, make believe, Lisp guys.
A.L.
A.L. wrote:
>>>>Nobody in industry is using Lisp.
>>>
>>>
>>>An ironic thing to say in a lisp forum.
>>
>>And false, too.
>
> Yes. My fault Of course, EVERYBODY is using Lisp. Demand for Lisp
> programemrs far excceeds supply.
>
> Make believe, make believe, Lisp guys.
You need to work on your basic cognitive skills, 'A.L.'.
Non-idiots know that the negation of 'nobody uses Lisp'
isn't 'everybody uses Lisp'.
Paul
A.L. <········@hotfuck.com> writes:
> On Sat, 13 Aug 2005 10:16:38 -0500, "Paul F. Dietz" <·····@dls.net>
> wrote:
>
> >BR wrote:
> >> On Sat, 13 Aug 2005 08:13:35 -0500, A.L wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>>Nobody in industry is using Lisp.
> >>
> >>
> >> An ironic thing to say in a lisp forum.
> >
> >And false, too.
> >
> > Paul
>
> Yes. My fault Of course, EVERYBODY is using Lisp. Demand for Lisp
> programemrs far excceeds supply.
Do you have any ability to reason with anything beyond universal
quantifiers? Stuff like this just makes you look like your average
usenet kook and nobody has any reason to take you the least bit
seriously.
/Jon
--
'j' - a n t h o n y at romeo/charley/november com
A.L. <········@hotfuck.com> writes:
>>>>Nobody in industry is using Lisp.
>>And false, too.
>> Paul
> Yes. My fault Of course, EVERYBODY is using Lisp. Demand for Lisp
> programemrs far excceeds supply.
Indeed, it doesn't matter, for unemployed lisp programmers, if every
body in the industry is using Lisp or not. What matters is the demand
for lisp programmers. Nobody can deny that it's lower than the
demand for Java or for SAP, the COBOL of today (http://www.sap.com).
--
__Pascal Bourguignon__ http://www.informatimago.com/
You're always typing.
Well, let's see you ignore my
sitting on your hands.
> A.L. <········@hotfuck.com> writes:
>>>>>Nobody in industry is using Lisp.
>>>And false, too.
>>> Paul
>> Yes. My fault Of course, EVERYBODY is using Lisp. Demand for Lisp
>> programemrs far excceeds supply.
>
> Indeed, it doesn't matter, for unemployed lisp programmers, if every
> body in the industry is using Lisp or not. What matters is the demand
> for lisp programmers. Nobody can deny that it's lower than the
> demand for Java or for SAP, the COBOL of today (http://www.sap.com).
There's a relevant parallel for APL programmers.
There are more recruiters searching for APL programmers than there are
APL programmers. (Alas, there's not any easy or economically viable
way to grow newbies into "qualified, experienced" APL programmers, not
in the context relevant...)
There surely is more demand for ABAP/4 programmers than for either
Lisp or APL programmers; but that's not actually a relevant point.
The relevant point is the ratios between supply and demand. Right
now, there are zillions of ABAP/4 programmers out there, between:
a) Those trained in Europe in the '80s
b) Those trained in North America in the '90s (I'm one of those)
c) Those trained in India, Russia and such since then...
I haven't written a line of ABAP/4 since 2001, when the market
imploded (between the end of the Y2K bubble, and the subsequent
popping of the Internet Bubble), leaving barrels of ABAPers out of
that sort of work.
I frankly think it would be easier to find Lisp work than ABAP/4
work...
--
(reverse (concatenate 'string "moc.liamg" ·@" "enworbbc"))
http://cbbrowne.com/info/
If we were meant to fly, we wouldn't keep losing our luggage.
Robert,
We have all been seeing your posts here for some months now. Lots of
people have offered advice, but you have rejected all of it. I've
looked at your web site and it is NOT a good advertisment for your
skills or abilities and will do more harm in your attempts to get a
job than assistance. Things that your web site should have are
1. Your CV. If its on the site, I couldn't find it or its in a format
which is not recognized as a CV. You have a section "Please hire
me!" which is poorly laid out. Your "skills" look to be equivelent
to what I would expect from a high school student who has an
interest in PCs or a hobbyist or just likes to play around with
them. There is nothing there which looks like it was done by a
professional with 22 years experience. There is no well laid out CV
which gives me
- Contact Details
- Employment History
- Technical Skill Summary
- Training History
- Hobbies/Interests Summary
Some of this does seem to be buried within the text of your pages,
but its not clear and easy to follow. Remember that anyone lookinig
for someone to employ is not going to spend ages trying to work out
if your any good - they want to be able to see a high level summary
which tweaks their interest to find out more.
2. the page you have showiing what you have done and talking about the
software you have written is not at all impressive or
convincing. Again, it looks like something put together by someone
who has played around with a bit of programming. Particular
problems with some of it include
- The software projects you talk about are less than
convincing. All of it has been done and done much better
already. The stuff you have about anti-spam projects you are
working on shows no real grasp of the issues, is something which
is already available in various forms out there for free and
despite the amo9unt of time you appear to have spent working on
it, does not appear to ever have been completed.
- You list courses you have done in the last 5 years on C, C++,
Java and Data Structures. The big question is, if you have been
a programmer for 22 years, why are you doing these introductory
courses? Most descent programmers I know don't do introductory
courses on programming languages. When a new language comes
along, they just learn it. As for a course on data structures,
you have to wonder why a programmer with 22 years of experience
needed an introductory course on data structures? There is
nothing I could find that even indicated what your real
experiences were in - I mean, what did you program in for 22
years if your only now learning C, C++ and java? What sort of
problems/projects to you successfully complete in that time and
who did you work for?
- Employers are less interested in your knowledge of language
syntax than in your ability to analyse a problem, identify the
right data structures and algorithms and implement it. There is
no evidence you have these abilities in any of your pages.
3. There are some potentially interesting/original small hacks you
have done, sush as the emacs and java stuff. However, this works
against you as there have been packages freely available to do this
for a long time. When I was programming in Java during the late
90's, I was using emacs JDEE mode, which uses beanShell to do
essentially what you have done, but also has a lot of other nice
features. The obvious question anyone would ask when seeing what
you have done is "Why has this person gone and re-invented the
wheel?". One thing employers want is people who are able to find
and use existing tools/libraries/etc and who don't waste time
re-inventing stuff which is already available, but instead use what
is available to make them even more productive and put their energy
into dealing with new and as yet unsolved problems.
4. Some of your demo applications do not work correctly. According to
your software, my IP address cannot exist - not a good advertisment
for what you can do. Most of it also looks to be unfinished or
buggy - again, not a good advertisment for your abilities.
I'm sure you will have lots of justification for why my criticisms are
wrong or unfounded. However, what you really should be doing is making
changes to your site to address these changes because the criticisms
I've raised are very similar to what many prospective employers would
raise - though they probably won't tell you so. Instead of getting
definsive and spending time explaining why I'm wrong, spend the time
improving your site to address the criticisms - if you have the
skills, then do what is required to make that obvious. I would suggest
you also remeove the "Please Hire Me!" link - it comes across too much
like someone who is begging for a chance and will make most employers
feel like they are dealing with some sort of charity case. Employers
are arely interested in being charitable - they are primarily
interested in finding people who can provide a positive contribution
to reaching their goals. You need to convince employers that you will
be an asset - sometimes, employers will take a chance because they
feel you will eventually be an asset, but most of the time, they want
people who will be an asset to them within weeks of starting.
I also think you need to start targeting employers which are more
within your league. To even imagine you could ever get a job with Sun
working on Java when you have only recently completed some basic
introductory courses is not even within the realms of reality. Don't
even try and get work programming CGI applications - there are
thousands of high school kids with more CGI experience than you. This
is not meant to be rude, just honest. There is nothing on your website
that makes me think you have any great skill at CGI programming - the
bottom line is that most CGI programs are extremely basic in that they
are not much more complex or require any more skills than old style
DOS batch programming. However, there are some very interesting things
which can be done with CGI programs - try and come up with something
along the lines of new or interest catching applications of CGI -
remember, CGI is really just a gateway - the server just passes off
some data to some subprocess (which might be a shell script, java,
perl, python - anyting which can read from stdin and write to
stdout). See what you can come up with which might catch someones
attention - you want someone to think "Hmmm, thats an interesting
idea, this guy might be worth talking to". The stuff you have
described and have demos of is extremely basic - I use to give weekly
exercises to my students which were equivelent in both complexity and
the time necessary to do. CGI programs which are able to tell the user
what their IP address is or take any details from the data made
available to the CGI program from the server are nothing spectacular.
To be honest, unless you have a lot of hidden ability and experience
which is not reflected in your web site, I seriously doubt you will
ever get a programming job. Both your age and apparent lack of
commercial experience or tertiary degree in computing science are
working against you. There are plenty of younger and more experienced
programmers out there and your just not in the running. This is sad if
it truely is what you want to do and possibly could even be defined as
unfailr, but the world is unfair and we just have to live with
that. If you really are determined, then you need to get really
serious about it. You need to define a personal development plan which
will move you towards having the necessary skills and qualificaitons
to get you a job. If you haven't got the money to do this, then your
first goal shouuld be to get the money. Forget about a programming job
at this time - get any job you can and save every cent you can and
once you have enough, then find the right course (either a degree or
diploma or whatever) and complete that and then try again to get
work. However, I think your age is working against you and I wouldn't
get your hopes up.
Personally, I'd give up the idea of a professional life as a
programmer. In reality, 90% of programmers are poorly paid and have
pretty poor job security. Its unfortunate that programming is
considered to be worth a lot less than its true contribution
value. Sales people, middle managers and even business analysts are
considered more valuable than those who actually write the code and
develop the products. In many ways, the idnustry has developed this
unfortunate attitude in which programming is seen as what you do to
get a foot in the door as a young graduate and is only a stepping
stone to a real career as an analyst, manager or sales executive. This
means that at 40+, not only are you competing with young energetic
recent graduates, you are also often perceived as either not very good
(since your still a programmer at 40+) or have no real drive or
ambition. I don't personally agree with this, but it is the reality we
are faced with. To be 40+ with very little commercial experience (and
non for the last 13 years or so), means your well and truely out of
the market and are extremely unlikely to ever get a job in that area.
Essentially, you are left with only a few choices -
1. continue trying, but will little chance of success
2. Possibly find work in a related area
3. Come up with something original AND useful and either sell it
or make if available for free (to help develop a reputation).
4. Leave programming as a hobby and find some other occupation.
I actually find it amazing that after 13 years of not being able to
get a job as a programmer, you are still trying to. For whatever
reason, you are failing to convince employers of your worth. Despite
lots of advice from this group, you constantly just reject it all. You
have done everything from blame it on cheap labor from 3rd world
countries, your inability to sell yourself because of moral and
philosophical reasons, the inability of others to somehow magically
percieve your worth, your lack of money, lack of friends or people to
network with etc etc. At some point, you need to do a bit of honest
self reflection and consider that perhaps the problem lies with you
and accept responsibility for your situation. This is not meant to be
nasty or objectionable - it just seems from all your posts that you
have a real problem with being able to acknowledge your part in your
situation. I could well be wrong, but then you should ask the question
"Why does he think that?" and try to address the cause of such
perception.
Tim
--
Tim Cross
The e-mail address on this message is FALSE (obviously!). My real e-mail is
to a company in Australia called rapttech and my login is tcross - if you
really need to send mail, you should be able to work it out!
From: Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t
Subject: CV/resume (was: can anyone offer Lisp job?)
Date:
Message-ID: <REM-2005aug19-001@Yahoo.Com>
(My full reply is very long, over 20K bytes,
so I'm splitting it per topic, first part here:)
> From: Tim X <····@spamto.devnul.com>
> Your CV. If its on the site, I couldn't find it or its in a format
> which is not recognized as a CV.
I'm in the USA, looking for commercial employment. I'm not looking for
a job in Europe, and I'm not looking for a tenured faculty position in
academia. So I don't believe your remark is appropriate.
http://jobsearch.about.com/cs/curriculumvitae/a/curriculumvitae.htm
http://www.careers.ucr.edu/students/graduates/cvsample.html
http://jobsearch.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.eurograduate.com%2Fplan2.html
http://www.quintcareers.com/curriculum_vitae.html
http://www.careers.ucr.edu/Students/Graduates/CV/
Is it possible you're confused about terminology and really mean that
you can't find any of my nearly dozen resumes, which are organized here?
http://members.tripod.com/~MaasInfo/SeekJob/Resumes.html#Topics
I've received universal condemnation for every one of my resumes,
making me want to hide them from any prospective employer until and
unless I can get some quality help in getting them into better shape.
- Contact Details
- Employment History
- Technical Skill Summary
- Training History
- Hobbies/Interests Summary
I've been advised not to use that format, because the first thing the
potential employer sees is that I've been unemployed more than ten
years, and he never even gets to the skill or training sections. Do you
have any good reason to insist on putting my worst foot forward first
in a resume?
·······@Yahoo.Com (Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t) writes:
> (My full reply is very long, over 20K bytes,
> so I'm splitting it per topic, first part here:)
> > From: Tim X <····@spamto.devnul.com>
> > Your CV. If its on the site, I couldn't find it or its in a format
> > which is not recognized as a CV.
>
> I'm in the USA, looking for commercial employment. I'm not looking for
> a job in Europe, and I'm not looking for a tenured faculty position in
> academia. So I don't believe your remark is appropriate.
Your just being fucking difficult - it was obvious from the context
what I was saying. I've already responded to this anyway. Put in
whatever bloody term you like - resume/cv whatever - but if you are
going to be so "precise" make sure you put the accent on the e won't you!
> http://jobsearch.about.com/cs/curriculumvitae/a/curriculumvitae.htm
> http://www.careers.ucr.edu/students/graduates/cvsample.html
> http://jobsearch.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.eurograduate.com%2Fplan2.html
> http://www.quintcareers.com/curriculum_vitae.html
> http://www.careers.ucr.edu/Students/Graduates/CV/
> Is it possible you're confused about terminology and really mean that
> you can't find any of my nearly dozen resumes, which are organized here?
> http://members.tripod.com/~MaasInfo/SeekJob/Resumes.html#Topics
> I've received universal condemnation for every one of my resumes,
> making me want to hide them from any prospective employer until and
> unless I can get some quality help in getting them into better shape.
>
> - Contact Details
> - Employment History
> - Technical Skill Summary
> - Training History
> - Hobbies/Interests Summary
> I've been advised not to use that format, because the first thing the
> potential employer sees is that I've been unemployed more than ten
> years, and he never even gets to the skill or training sections. Do you
> have any good reason to insist on putting my worst foot forward first
> in a resume?
the problem with the advice you have received is that it assumes you
actually have a good foot to put forward. It is clearly evident you
don't and I think its unlikely you will ever get a programming
job. Its not lack of skill, cheap labor, useless employment agencies,
lack of funds, lack of friends, inability to network, lack of computer
hardware, lack of Internet access or any of the other excuses you have
to justify your situation - its purely and simply your attitude.
Tim
--
Tim Cross
The e-mail address on this message is FALSE (obviously!). My real e-mail is
to a company in Australia called rapttech and my login is tcross - if you
really need to send mail, you should be able to work it out!
Rob, are you looking for a job as a comedian?
"1999.Feb to 2000.Dec, helping people cope with and recover from
emotional problems such as shyness and depression, mostly via the
InterNet (alt.support.* newsgroups, Yahoo clubs, and e-mail)."
Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t wrote:
> I've been advised not to use that format, because the first thing the
> potential employer sees is that I've been unemployed more than ten
> years, and he never even gets to the skill or training sections. Do you
Robert, if you have been unemployed for 10 years (no matter the
reason), you're out of the job market. You absolutely have to start
your own busines.
From: Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t
Subject: Anti-spam, resumes, classes (was: can anyone offer Lisp job?)
Date:
Message-ID: <REM-2005aug19-002@Yahoo.Com>
> The stuff you have about anti-spam projects you are working on shows
> no real grasp of the issues, is something which is already available
> in various forms out there for free and despite the amo9unt of time
> you appear to have spent working on it, does not appear to ever have
> been completed.
Everything you've written there is mistaken. I have full grasp of the
issue of incoming e-mail which on some systems can be blocked at the
SMTP level so that the SMTP client suffers an error response and has to
deal with it, and the SMTP server never has to do anything except issue
the error response. Unfortunately many people, including myself, aren't
so priviledged to run their own SMTP server whereby they can establish
policy for that server and install blacklisting or whatever policy they
choose. So my ISP's server accepts *all* spam that is direct at my
address, and I have to deal with it after it's already been accepted.
Bouncing spam back to the From: address is not an acceptable option
because most of the time spam forges that information as they forge
nearly everything else in the header to make it difficult for people to
find out where it really came from and file appropriate cease and desist
orders against the spammer.
Just deleting all spam is not a valid option either, because it takes
hours per day to manually scan the hundreds of spam I get each day to
decide if it's really spam or not, and even if I wanted to spend the
time doing that, I'd make mistakes from time to time, deleting a
legitimate message because I was fatigued and pressed the wrong key.
The only solution is to automate the determination of what is likely to
be spam, and then what to do with it? Not delete it, because of the
false positives, legitimate messages that the spam filter mistakenly
believes are spam. So what is the solution you propose for what the
spam filter presumes to be spam but might be legitimate??
What I did was to build a database of actually-working spam-complaint
addresses, not per domain but per IP address range, and actually check
each complaint address to make sure it really accepted SMTP connection
and accepted e-mail from me, before I added that record to the
database. As far as I know, I'm the only person on the whole InterNet
who has done that, either the mapping from IP numbers, or the checking
to see if addresses really work. It's not something that is readily
available for free.
I also wrote code to note the entry point, not just for messages that
come to my ISP's mail server, or messages that sneak past it by being
addressed directly to the shell machine instead, but also messages that
are addressed to my Yahoo! Groups address and then forwarded
automatically to me, and messages that are posted to regular Yahoo!
Groups that I subscribe to by e-mail with all messages being sent to my
ISP shell address instead of my Yahoo! Mail address. It's a bit of a
complicated module to track the Received: lines backwards from my shell
machine through various intermediary Yahoo machines to the point where
they first enter Yahoo from outside, and list *that* IP number as the
injection point, and consequently send my automated spam complaint to
the appropriate complaint address for *that* IP number. As far as I
know, nobody else provides free software that runs on FreeBSD Unix and
can be easily configured to know all those various Yahoo intermediary
routes to decide the correct injection point.
There is no way to ever complete the database, because new sources of
spam appear every day, and those new sources must be added to the
database. Also spam-complaint addresses come and go, and even though
I've been complaining to a particular address for months or years,
suddenly that address stops accepting e-mail, and my software has to
switch to a backup address. To make instant-complaints easier, I
maintained a traceroute database for every e-mail I received. So if I
got spam from a new IP block where I didn't already have a CTW
(Complain To Whom) record, my software would send the complaint to the
next upstream host where such a CTW record already existed. It takes
many minutes to connect to various WHOIS sources and collect
spam-complaint addresses and verifying them, tying up my dialup
connection the whole time they are running, but it takes only a
fraction of a second to look up the already-collected traceroute data
to find where to complain, thereby tying up my dialup connection for
only a few seconds each time a new spam comes in.
But my program itself was essentially finished by the end of
2003.April, with only eight messages after that time that the
instant-complaint system couldn't handle and had to fall back to an
older part of the program. Except for those eight difficult messages,
in every case my program since then automatically checked for new
e-mail once per minute, and then sent a spam complaint within a few
seconds each time that check revealed that new spam had come in, again
and again and again fully reliably with those eight exceptions where it
simply left the e-mail uncomplained and notified me of the need to use
the older system which took up to a few minutes per new source of spam
to contact the WHOIS servers to collect the spam complaint data and
then verify which addresses worked and which didn't and update my
database accordingly.
> You list courses you have done in the last 5 years on C, C++,
> Java and Data Structures. The big question is, if you have been
> a programmer for 22 years, why are you doing these introductory
> courses? Most descent [sic] programmers I know don't do introductory
> courses on programming languages. When a new language comes
> along, they just learn it.
That's what I always did when I found a new language for which I had
obvious use for it, but nowadays I can do everything I want or need in
Lisp, so I have hardly any incentive to program using a new language
rather than just do it all in Lisp. I have been asking for many years
for somebody (such as an employer) to assign me simple tasks in a new
langauge, whereby I study it myself to learn enough to accomplish the
tasks, even though if I weren't prodded I'd just use Lisp for it all.
But I haven't been employed for years, and nobody has suggested any
useful tasks for me to try, so I haven't had any external
suggestions/requests what applications to program, hence haven't had
any opportunity to program in a new language toward a specified target
(until my HelloPlus project). So when the Department of Rehabilitation
said they wouldn't help me get a job until I took classes in these new
languages, and they'd pay all expenses (tuition/fees, books/equipment,
transportation), I could only accept their offer if I wanted to
continue to get their services. And in the case of Visual Basic and
Visual C/C++, I have no access to those systems on FreeBSD Unix, so
there's no way whatsoever I could have learned them on my own. As for
C, I already knew most of it, but it was a prerequisite for the C++ and
Java classes which I needed to qualify for advertised jobs.
This Summer I could have continued by taking a Perl class, but the only
time offered was late in evening, and Perl is readily available on
Unix, so I stopped taking classes and started learning it on my own. In
the case of PHP, there's no class at all available, so I started
learning it on my own also. In the case of J2EE, even though my last
Java class covered that, the campus computer system at De Anza didn't
have it installed, so I couldn't do some of the class assignments that
required it. In the case of JavaScript, I have no facilities to teach
it to myself (except on my Linux Laptop where I have only a very old
version of NetScape and no way to download anything newer nor to upload
my finished work to the net now that the modem stopped working). So I
signed up for a class last Fall (before I had the laptop, when I had no
way whatsoever to learn it on my own), but the class was cancelled, so
after I got the laptop I taught myself some of it on my own, only to be
stumped by things that work fine on my Laptop but don't work at all on
newer browsers, and vice versa.
If you can think of some interesting PHP or CGI/C++ or CGI/Java or
CGI/Perl appliation you'd like to assign me to perform, as practice in
any of those languages, please proceed with such suggestion. (Actually
best would be not to tell me what language to use, just tell me the
application to implement, and then have me do the same application in
*all* those lanaguages I'm teaching myself or took classes recently.)
> Employers are less interested in your knowledge of language
> syntax than in your ability to analyse a problem, identify the
> right data structures and algorithms and implement it.
Then why do job ads list ten programming languages, every one of them
absolutely required for applicants to do a single job, and give no
consideration whatsoever for my 22+ years experience analyzing new
problems and solving them by writing new software??
And how can you possibly judge, by what a person writes on a resume,
whether they really do identify the right data structures and
algorithms? If I put in my "skill" section a statement:
- Able to analyze new problems, choose appropriate data structures,
design appropriate algorithms, and implement them in software.
do you think any of those keywords are going to get the resume past the
automated resume scanning that virtually all agencies use nowadays to
discard 99% of incoming resumes before any human takes even a glance at
the actual wording of the resumes? (That's a real question. If you
honestly believe spending two lines to include that in my resume, that
means I need to delete an extra two lines elsewhere, but I'll do that
if you believe it'll help me get a job.)
·······@Yahoo.Com (Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t) writes:
> Everything you've written there is mistaken. I have full grasp of the
> issue of incoming e-mail which on some systems can be blocked at the
> SMTP level so that the SMTP client suffers an error response and has to
> deal with it, and the SMTP server never has to do anything except issue
> the error response. Unfortunately many people, including myself, aren't
> so priviledged to run their own SMTP server
And what is the problem with the commonest solution ( a bayesian filter
in the email client ) ?
······@bigpond.net.au wrote:
> And what is the problem with the commonest solution ( a bayesian filter
> in the email client ) ?
Hey, I'm using Pine on a shell account and my cat ate my modem, so I can't
use my broken laptop for installing a modern mail client, which doesn't
work on MacOS 1.0 and DOS anyway, so don't give me silly tips!
SCNR
--
Frank Bu�, ··@frank-buss.de
http://www.frank-buss.de, http://www.it4-systems.de
Frank Buss <··@frank-buss.de> writes:
> > And what is the problem with the commonest solution ( a bayesian filter
> > in the email client ) ?
>
> Hey, I'm using Pine on a shell account and my cat ate my modem, so I can't
> use my broken laptop for installing a modern mail client, which doesn't
> work on MacOS 1.0 and DOS anyway, so don't give me silly tips!
:-)
I think that William Burroughs put it well:
"Avoid fuck-ups. Fools, I call them. You all know the type -
no matter how good it sounds, everything they have anything to
do with turns into a disaster...
Tell them firmly, "I am not paid to
listen to this drivel -- you are a terminal fool!" Otherwise,
they make you as crazy as they are. "
Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t wrote:
> Everything you've written there is mistaken. I have full grasp of the
> issue of incoming e-mail which on some systems can be blocked at the
> SMTP level so that the SMTP client suffers an error response and has to
> deal with it, and the SMTP server never has to do anything except issue
> the error response. Unfortunately many people, including myself, aren't
> so priviledged to run their own SMTP server whereby they can establish
> policy for that server and install blacklisting or whatever policy they
> choose. So my ISP's server accepts *all* spam that is direct at my
> address, and I have to deal with it after it's already been accepted.
It doesn't matter AT ALL if you have a spam-filter inside the sendmail,
or if you run one on your mailbox contents before checking the mail out.
Of course there is the decision problem (what to mark as spam), but good
bayesian filters exist today. You might want to read Paul Graham's "A
plan for spam" for the general idea. Most mail clients should have
filters built-in, otherwise you could use something like procmail I guess.
--
I believe in Karma. That means I can do bad things to people
all day long and I assume they deserve it.
Dogbert
Ulrich Hobelmann <···········@web.de> writes:
>
> It doesn't matter AT ALL if you have a spam-filter inside the
> sendmail, or if you run one on your mailbox contents before checking
> the mail out.
>
> Of course there is the decision problem (what to mark as spam), but
> good bayesian filters exist today. You might want to read Paul
> Graham's "A plan for spam" for the general idea. Most mail clients
> should have filters built-in, otherwise you could use something like
> procmail I guess.
>
> --
> I believe in Karma. That means I can do bad things to people
> all day long and I assume they deserve it.
> Dogbert
Or he could just implement the anti-spam stuff from Practicle common
Lisp - apparently he does know how to program in lisp.
--
Tim Cross
The e-mail address on this message is FALSE (obviously!). My real e-mail is
to a company in Australia called rapttech and my login is tcross - if you
really need to send mail, you should be able to work it out!
·······@Yahoo.Com (Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t) writes:
> > The stuff you have about anti-spam projects you are working on shows
> > no real grasp of the issues, is something which is already available
> > in various forms out there for free and despite the amo9unt of time
> > you appear to have spent working on it, does not appear to ever have
> > been completed.
>
> Everything you've written there is mistaken. I have full grasp of the
You think you have a full grasp, but you really don't. Your whole
design is flawed and completely overlooks obvious things like forged
headers (not just the from address). The fact IP addresses of spammers
must be in your database is flawed as it means you won't detect the
spam unless you have received some from that address before. Your
reporting complaints is a waste of time - either they are going to the
wrong authority or they go to the technically correct authority, but
the authority doesn't give a damn - more than likely they are earning
enough form the spammers to permit them to use the system. Your
approach also fails to consider spam sent from dynamically assigned Ip
addresses which could also be used by legitimate users at other
times.
The spam issue is actually very complex - thats why there is no 100%
effective solution. However, there are a lot of freely available
solutions out there which will work more reliably and efficiently than
your solution. With respect to your mail handling, I recommend you
look into some of the common and freely available tools out there like
procmail and fetchmail as well as the many modules available to do
much of what you have tried to do which are able to parse headers,
lookup hosts, ip addresses etc etc.
> > You list courses you have done in the last 5 years on C, C++,
> > Java and Data Structures. The big question is, if you have been
> > a programmer for 22 years, why are you doing these introductory
> > courses? Most descent [sic] programmers I know don't do introductory
> > courses on programming languages. When a new language comes
> > along, they just learn it.
>
> That's what I always did when I found a new language for which I had
> obvious use for it, but nowadays I can do everything I want or need in
> Lisp, so I have hardly any incentive to program using a new language
> rather than just do it all in Lisp. I have been asking for many years
> for somebody (such as an employer) to assign me simple tasks in a new
> langauge, whereby I study it myself to learn enough to accomplish the
> tasks, even though if I weren't prodded I'd just use Lisp for it all.
for god sake, get some self motivation. Stop putting it on others to
find ways for you to learn and achieve things. If you don't have
enough creativity to come up with your own projects to teach yourself
new things, why on earth would anyone want to employ you?
> But I haven't been employed for years, and nobody has suggested any
> useful tasks for me to try, so I haven't had any external
> suggestions/requests what applications to program, hence haven't had
> any opportunity to program in a new language toward a specified
> target
Here we go again - blame it on everyone/anything else rather than
acknowledge your own failure to get motivated and creative.
> (until my HelloPlus project). So when the Department of Rehabilitation
> said they wouldn't help me get a job until I took classes in these new
> languages, and they'd pay all expenses (tuition/fees, books/equipment,
> transportation), I could only accept their offer if I wanted to
> continue to get their services. And in the case of Visual Basic and
> Visual C/C++, I have no access to those systems on FreeBSD Unix, so
> there's no way whatsoever I could have learned them on my own. As for
> C, I already knew most of it, but it was a prerequisite for the C++ and
> Java classes which I needed to qualify for advertised jobs.
so, if you did what they required for them to help you find a job,
what happened? I'm sure you will tell us they did something wrong, but
you were perfect!
> This Summer I could have continued by taking a Perl class, but the only
> time offered was late in evening, and Perl is readily available on
> Unix, so I stopped taking classes and started learning it on my own. In
> the case of PHP, there's no class at all available, so I started
> learning it on my own also. In the case of J2EE, even though my last
> Java class covered that, the campus computer system at De Anza didn't
> have it installed, so I couldn't do some of the class assignments that
> required it. In the case of JavaScript, I have no facilities to teach
> it to myself (except on my Linux Laptop where I have only a very old
> version of NetScape and no way to download anything newer nor to upload
> my finished work to the net now that the modem stopped working). So I
> signed up for a class last Fall (before I had the laptop, when I had no
> way whatsoever to learn it on my own), but the class was cancelled, so
> after I got the laptop I taught myself some of it on my own, only to be
> stumped by things that work fine on my Laptop but don't work at all on
> newer browsers, and vice versa.
Oh dear, the world really is mean to you isn't it. Fancy the
University not having what you needed and no PHP courses and no
adequate software for you to do anything useful - cruel cruel world.
> If you can think of some interesting PHP or CGI/C++ or CGI/Java or
> CGI/Perl appliation you'd like to assign me to perform, as practice in
> any of those languages, please proceed with such suggestion. (Actually
> best would be not to tell me what language to use, just tell me the
> application to implement, and then have me do the same application in
> *all* those lanaguages I'm teaching myself or took classes recently.)
Its not my job to think for you - again, if you can't even manage to
think of a few original exercises or problems to solve which will both
teach you and show your abilites, then who would ever want to employ
you - the programming part is the basic stuff - its the creative problem
solving employers really want.
> > Employers are less interested in your knowledge of language
> > syntax than in your ability to analyse a problem, identify the
> > right data structures and algorithms and implement it.
>
> Then why do job ads list ten programming languages, every one of them
> absolutely required for applicants to do a single job, and give no
> consideration whatsoever for my 22+ years experience analyzing new
> problems and solving them by writing new software??
1. I dont think they are not considering your 22 years experience - I
think they are just considering your poor attitude and inability to
take responsability for your situation.
2. Employers ask for experience in languages because they are assuming
that if you really have experience, you must also have creativity
and problem solving skills. Note that you do NOT have experience in
the languages you claim - you have a novice level of knowledge, but
you do not have experience. You also seem to lack creativity and
immagination and an inability to "read between the lines". I
suspect you have some degree of Aspergers.
> And how can you possibly judge, by what a person writes on a resume,
> whether they really do identify the right data structures and
> algorithms? If I put in my "skill" section a statement:
> - Able to analyze new problems, choose appropriate data structures,
> design appropriate algorithms, and implement them in software.
> do you think any of those keywords are going to get the resume past the
> automated resume scanning that virtually all agencies use nowadays to
> discard 99% of incoming resumes before any human takes even a glance at
> the actual wording of the resumes? (That's a real question. If you
> honestly believe spending two lines to include that in my resume, that
> means I need to delete an extra two lines elsewhere, but I'll do that
> if you believe it'll help me get a job.)
I think putting that in would certainly be an improvement on what you
do have. I have no idea how you think your current selection of poorly
compiled resumes would ever get past any automatic resume checker. I
would also love to see one of these automated resume checkers -
considering we still have not cracked the natural language problem,
all I can imagine is a system which does basic word matches, in which
case, its better to have buzzwords than not.
However, all of this is mute. You are attempting to get a job in a
highly competitive field with no real experience, no real training of
any consequence and an attitude problem.
Get a job parking cars and then at least you can walk around doing
Marvin impressions ("Brain the size of a planet and they have me
parking cars).
--
Tim Cross
The e-mail address on this message is FALSE (obviously!). My real e-mail is
to a company in Australia called rapttech and my login is tcross - if you
really need to send mail, you should be able to work it out!
From: David Steuber
Subject: Re: Anti-spam, resumes, classes (was: can anyone offer Lisp job?)
Date:
Message-ID: <87fyswep4q.fsf@david-steuber.com>
Hi Robert,
You are really becoming one of my favorite posters in the off-topic
category.
·······@Yahoo.Com (Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t) writes:
> I have been asking for many years for somebody (such as an employer)
> to assign me simple tasks in a new langauge, whereby I study it
> myself to learn enough to accomplish the tasks, even though if I
> weren't prodded I'd just use Lisp for it all.
There are some progressive employers out there who will give you a
challenge rather than just glancing at your resume and filing it in
the circular file. ITA Software is one such employer and they are
looking for bright hackers who can solve real world complex problems.
Also everyone I met there is really cool and the environment is
terrific!
Check out their careers section on their web site. They have some
programming challenges and you get to pick your language. Proving
your ability will trump anything on your resume.
> But I haven't been employed for years, and nobody has suggested any
> useful tasks for me to try, so I haven't had any external
> suggestions/requests what applications to program, hence haven't had
> any opportunity to program in a new language toward a specified
> target (until my HelloPlus project). So when the Department of
> Rehabilitation said they wouldn't help me get a job until I took
> classes in these new languages, and they'd pay all expenses
> (tuition/fees, books/equipment, transportation), I could only accept
> their offer if I wanted to continue to get their services. And in
> the case of Visual Basic and Visual C/C++, I have no access to those
> systems on FreeBSD Unix, so there's no way whatsoever I could have
> learned them on my own. As for C, I already knew most of it, but it
> was a prerequisite for the C++ and Java classes which I needed to
> qualify for advertised jobs.
Government bureaucrats are a funny lot. They insist on following the
rules. What can you do? Game the system of course! You are already
doing that by taking classes. Keep that up!
I actually have a suggestion/request for you though. You get to use
the language of your choice for this one.
As you know, there are a number of sites that advertise for jobs.
Monster is a perfect example. I suspect most advertisers are
recruiters rather than the companies that need staff. HR departments
being what they are these days like to outsource the initial filtering
of the unwashed masses. And who can blame them? Thanks to the
internet, any fool can blast his resume to every company with an email
address.
The problem with this of course is the buzz word filtering. Each job
is has various buzz words associated with it. Mind you, good
employers don't worry so much about that sort of thing, but we are
talking about head hunters here. The employers won't talk to you
until the head hunter refers you. Since the head hunter requires
placement of people to make money, they won't refer anyone they think
their clients won't hire.
What would be a tremendously useful tool is something that can custom
craft a resume for a given job position. What it should do is read
the requirements of the position and craft a resume that states the
existence of these requirements in priority order as implied by the
job listing.
A successful resume generator will get you calls from at least 50% of
your resumes sent out. If you can do that, you can start one of your
own resume services. You will probably make more money that way and
you won't have to put up with the inevitable phone interview process.
> If you can think of some interesting PHP or CGI/C++ or CGI/Java or
> CGI/Perl appliation you'd like to assign me to perform, as practice in
> any of those languages, please proceed with such suggestion. (Actually
> best would be not to tell me what language to use, just tell me the
> application to implement, and then have me do the same application in
> *all* those lanaguages I'm teaching myself or took classes recently.)
You can implement my suggested project quite easily in Perl, Lisp, or
whatever you have on your FreeBSD shell account.
> > Employers are less interested in your knowledge of language
> > syntax than in your ability to analyse a problem, identify the
> > right data structures and algorithms and implement it.
>
> Then why do job ads list ten programming languages, every one of them
> absolutely required for applicants to do a single job, and give no
> consideration whatsoever for my 22+ years experience analyzing new
> problems and solving them by writing new software??
>
> And how can you possibly judge, by what a person writes on a resume,
> whether they really do identify the right data structures and
> algorithms? If I put in my "skill" section a statement:
> - Able to analyze new problems, choose appropriate data structures,
> design appropriate algorithms, and implement them in software.
> do you think any of those keywords are going to get the resume past the
> automated resume scanning that virtually all agencies use nowadays to
> discard 99% of incoming resumes before any human takes even a glance at
> the actual wording of the resumes? (That's a real question. If you
> honestly believe spending two lines to include that in my resume, that
> means I need to delete an extra two lines elsewhere, but I'll do that
> if you believe it'll help me get a job.)
Based on what you say, I'm sure you can see the value of the resume
generator. Worst case scenario, you've got a program that proves your
talents.
--
My .sig file sucks. Can anyone recommend a better one?
From: Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t
Subject: Re: Anti-spam, resumes, classes (was: can anyone offer Lisp job?)
Date:
Message-ID: <REM-2005sep01-005@Yahoo.Com>
> From: David Steuber <····@david-steuber.com>
> There are some progressive employers out there who will give you a
> challenge rather than just glancing at your resume and filing it in
> the circular file. ITA Software is one such employer and they are
> looking for bright hackers who can solve real world complex problems.
...
> Check out their careers section on their web site. They have some
> programming challenges and you get to pick your language. Proving
> your ability will trump anything on your resume.
http://www.itasoftware.com/careers/eng/job1.php
Hmmm, a curious set of toy problems. Maybe I'll try one of them when
I'm in the right mood. (Most of the time I prefer more useful problems.)
> What would be a tremendously useful tool is something that can custom
> craft a resume for a given job position. What it should do is read
> the requirements of the position and craft a resume that states the
> existence of these requirements in priority order as implied by the
> job listing.
So you're suggesting somebody write a program to allow spammers in
penetrating HR departments the way they've already penetrated (and
destroyed) e-mail by using every possible means to bypass filters?
Here's the lastest spam to bypass Yahoo! Mail's filter:
[ ] MICHAEL oliver hello Wed 08/31 6k
[ ] Paul unogo Dear Freind.From Paul Wed 08/31 6k
[ ] delivery service Announcement Tue 08/30 4k
[ ] MS Corporation Program Security Section View Attachment Details
Last Microsoft Security Upgrade Tue 08/30 15k
[ ] Dr Robert Cole urgent response needed. Tue 08/30 12k
[ ] Postmaster View Attachment Details [none] Mon 08/29 3k
[ ] Security Bulletin View Attachment Details Newest Microsoft Pack
Mon 08/29 15k
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[ ] Microsoft View Attachment Details Network Pack Mon 08/29 83k
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08/29 5k
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[ ] Barrister Brian Thomos CLAIM AS NEXT OF KIN Mon 08/29 4k
[ ] Public Assistance View Attachment Details New Net Critical Upgrade
Sat 08/27 15k
[ ] ·········@o2.pl Hello:Top Urgent Sat 08/27 3k
[ ] Barrister Udoh Emos hello Dear Friend Sat 08/27 4k
[ ] ·····@ cpanel.ev1servers.net * * * Please Verify & Update Your
Account * * * Message-ID: <1125146065.25294.qm... Sat 08/27 6k
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From: David Steuber
Subject: Re: Anti-spam, resumes, classes (was: can anyone offer Lisp job?)
Date:
Message-ID: <87psrr8bri.fsf@david-steuber.com>
·······@Yahoo.Com (Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t) writes:
> > From: David Steuber <····@david-steuber.com>
> > Check out their careers section on their web site. They have some
> > programming challenges and you get to pick your language. Proving
> > your ability will trump anything on your resume.
>
> http://www.itasoftware.com/careers/eng/job1.php
> Hmmm, a curious set of toy problems. Maybe I'll try one of them when
> I'm in the right mood. (Most of the time I prefer more useful problems.)
More useful problems? I thought your stated problem was not being
able to get an interview. If solving one of those toy problems gets
you an interview, then you have solved your stated problem of not
being able to get interviews. That sounds useful to me.
But some folks at ITA probably lurk on this news group so you may have
already poisoned that well. It's a shame too because ITA is a cool
company with cool people doing cool things. If you did well on the
phone interview you would get to meet them in Cambridge and talk to
several nice people and do another little programming exercise. At
that point you could at least say you gave it an honest shot.
> > What would be a tremendously useful tool is something that can custom
> > craft a resume for a given job position. What it should do is read
> > the requirements of the position and craft a resume that states the
> > existence of these requirements in priority order as implied by the
> > job listing.
>
> So you're suggesting somebody write a program to allow spammers in
> penetrating HR departments the way they've already penetrated (and
> destroyed) e-mail by using every possible means to bypass filters?
> Here's the lastest spam to bypass Yahoo! Mail's filter:
[don't care about your spam]
Sure. Why not? If nothing else, you would prove your buzzword key
search theory and force humans to look through the resumes. Or at
least yours if you don't go distributing the software.
If you are really as good as you say you are, then all you need to do
is game the system so that you can get face to face with someone who
can see that and hire you.
It may prove to be more satisfying than whining on the Internet.
An alternative would be to find some newer hardware that is cheap or
free for the asking so that you have the infrastructure to do your own
independent software development. I think someone has already
suggested that. A three to five year old PC can still run Linux and
SBCL along with Emacs and SLIME. I'm sending this post from just such
a machine (it was new when I built it, but not leading edge).
--
My .sig file sucks. Can anyone recommend a better one?
From: Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t
Subject: JDEE/CGI/flashcards (was: can anyone offer Lisp job?)
Date:
Message-ID: <REM-2005aug19-003@Yahoo.Com>
> There are some potentially interesting/original small hacks you
> have done, sush as the emacs and java stuff. However, this works
> against you as there have been packages freely available to do this
> for a long time. When I was programming in Java during the late
> 90's, I was using emacs JDEE mode, which uses beanShell to do
> essentially what you have done, but also has a lot of other nice
> features. The obvious question anyone would ask when seeing what
> you have done is "Why has this person gone and re-invented the
> wheel?".
This if the first I've ever heard of JDEE mode, thanks for the
reference. Unfortunately with my laptop's modem not working I can't
download it and with BeanShell itself not working on FreeBSD Unix it
wouldn't do me any good there either. But it's good to know.
Let me check Google for a moment ... found it:
http://jdee.sunsite.dk/toc.html
The only reason I needed the EMACS hack in the first place was that on
the laptop with only a thumb-ball for cursor it was a royal pain to
copy and past back and forth between EMACS and BeanShell. On Unix I
talk from my Macintosh, using mouse on Macintosh to easily sweep or
click-shift-click whatever I want for copy&paste, and so I never need
any alternative. But it's nice to know JDEE exists if I ever have a
need for it.
> One thing employers want is people who are able to find
> and use existing tools/libraries/etc and who don't waste time
> re-inventing stuff which is already available, but instead use what
> is available to make them even more productive and put their energy
> into dealing with new and as yet unsolved problems.
Well if you know the *name* of some specialized tool, such as I did
starting a few minutes ago when I reached that part of your newsgroup
article, it's possible to look it up. But before you told me the name,
if I merely wanted some way to overcome the pain of thumbball cursor
for copy&paste, and had no idea that JDEE existed, it'd be much more
difficult to know what to ask Google to find the needed info.
> Some of your demo applications do not work correctly. According to
> your software, my IP address cannot exist
Please cite what of my software you're referring to, and what your IP
number is, and what bogus not-exist message that particular program
gave you, and I'll investigate this problem report.
> Most of it also looks to be unfinished or buggy
Again, you'll have to tell me what program you're talking about. My
spam-complaint software is available only from my personal account on
the shell machine. My software files are read-protected, so there's no
way you could possibly be running my spam-complaint software unless you
cracked into my account illegally. It's possible you ran some very
small demo of some tiny part of it, but you have to tell me the URL of
the CGI or PHP program you ran.
> what you really should be doing is making changes to your site to
> address these changes ...
Whenever you give me specifics of what program or WebPage was giving
you trouble, I can look into it to see what's wrong and what needs
fixing.
> I would suggest you also remeove the "Please Hire Me!" link
Done.
> employers ... most of the time, they want people who will be an asset
> to them within weeks of starting.
Why wait that long? I'm an asset already the first day I'm on the job.
> I also think you need to start targeting employers which are more
> within your league.
Unless you have a more specific statment of what that means, either
names of actual potential employers, or some specific way to find them,
your statement is both derogatory and worthless.
> Don't even try and get work programming CGI applications - there are
> thousands of high school kids with more CGI experience than you.
You're completely missing the point here. CGI is just a means of
exposing my software to the Web. I have written lots of PDP-10
software, but nobody nowadays has a PDP-10 to run it on, even I don't
have a PDP-10 to run a demo on. I have written lots of Macintosh
software, but I could never find anyone to come over to my apartment
and look at a demo of any of it. I have written lots of Unix software,
but again I could never find anyone to come to my apartment and let me
give a demo by dialing into my shell account. But thanks to CMUCL I can
port some of my old PSL or MacLisp or MACL software to run on Unix, as
well as develop new software on Unix, and thanks to CGI I can set up
demos of my Unix software that don't require somebody come over to my
apartment to see it. The thousands of high-school kids you cite may
have more CGI experience, but that's moot. They don't have the guts of
the programs I've developed since 1970, and it's the application, not
CGI, that is worth demonstrating (once I prove I can write and install
serverside applications at all, which was part of the purpose of the
2001.Jan demo, and part of the purpose of the HelloPlus-3-steps demos
in all of php perl lisp c c++ java so-far; I also have written JSP and
HttpServlet applications, but my ISP doesn't have a J2EE server so I
can't put them online at present).
> there are some very interesting things which can be done with CGI
> programs
Are you referring to tricks with CGI itself, or just putting a strong
UI-transaction-based client/server application behind it?
> See what you can come up with which might catch someones
> attention - you want someone to think "Hmmm, thats an interesting
> idea, this guy might be worth talking to".
Several times I've posted about various truly interesting applications
I've done, and offered to spend the extra time to interface them to CGI
for a public demo, and not once has anyone ever expressed an interest
in seeing any of them. I've written many hundreds of programs, and I
have no idea which one is worth spending an extra month converting to
CMUCL and an extra few days interfacing to CGI, until and unless
somebody express an interest in one specific program.
> The stuff you have described and have demos of is extremely basic
How long did you actually spend with my flashcard-drill program getting
a feel for the way it re-tests new cards frequently to get you past the
mental block of remembering them at all, and then as soon as you get
any of them right how it waits longer before re-testing to stretch your
memory, longer and longer and longer until it's months before
re-testing on the cards you have really truly learned but still need
those rare re-tests to keep you from forgetting eventually? If you
spent less than a half hour you really couldn't have gotten a feel for
the strengths of the program, and likewise if you didn't come back on a
daily basis for a week or two to see how it helps you develop long-term
memory of the cards. -- What, you have total recall memory, everything
that you ever encountered in your entire life is still fresh in your
memory and organized for instant recall as appropriate, you know at
least five thousand words each in at least thirty different foreign
languages plus at least a hundred thousand words in your native
language? Then you don't need my program which is for lesser
memory-abled folks who have serious trouble remembering
foreign-language vocabulary.
> I use to give weekly exercises to my students which were equivelent
> in both complexity and the time necessary to do.
I don't believe you.
> CGI programs which are able to tell the user what their IP address is
> or take any details from the data made available to the CGI program
> from the server are nothing spectacular.
I take it you're referring to my HelloPlus tutorial? That's primarily
to compare the various languages for their ease in interfacing to CGI
effectively, and to teach absolute beginners how to do it. For example,
all the existing PHP tutorials I could find via Google said you just
put the PHP file in your public_html directory, set permissions
correctly, and it should work, and if it doesn't work then ask your ISP
staff. Not one of them mentionned that you *also* need to create a
.htaccess file in your public_html directory with appropriate
permissions and with appropriate PHP recipe. But my tutorial includes
that vital info. You're not appreciating my tutorials for what they
are, tutorials. Please don't demean my serious applications such as my
flashcard-drill or spam-auto-complaining by pretending they offer no
more application seriousness than my beginner's tutorials.
> unless you have a lot of hidden ability and experience which is not
> reflected in your web site, I seriously doubt you will ever get a
> programming job.
You need to say precisely what Web site you're talking about here.
State all the major URL groups that you have looked at. Perhaps you
simply haven't looked at the right part of my Web material yet, so
you're getting a very insufficient view of what I've done. For example,
have you seen my index of resumes, my index of anti-spam documents, my
MaasInfo indexes, my flashcard demo, my guest1 login account, and my
listing of all non-personal files I've created since 1970 including
hundreds of programs? If not, please pick one of those that you somehow
haven't yet seen but think would be worth your seeing (you personally,
not "other people"), and I'll post a link to help you find it now.
Also, if indeed you haven't yet seen some of my best work, because
somehow it's difficult to traverse links from whereever you were
looking to where you needed to look, maybe we can work out a better
organization of links help others find the good stuff more easily.
·······@Yahoo.Com (Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t) writes:
> How long did you actually spend with my flashcard-drill program
...
> If you spent less than a half hour you really couldn't have gotten a feel for
> the strengths of the program, and likewise if you didn't come back on a
> daily basis for a week or two to see how it helps you develop long-term
> memory of the cards.
Do you seriously expect anyone to spend time every day for
"a week or two" to try your program ?
Even a complex ide or a programming language takes less
time to evaluate than "a week or two".
From: Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t
Subject: Re: JDEE/CGI/flashcards (was: can anyone offer Lisp job?)
Date:
Message-ID: <REM-2005aug27-001@Yahoo.Com>
> From: <······@bigpond.net.au>
> Do you seriously expect anyone to spend time every day for
> "a week or two" to try your program ?
> Even a complex ide or a programming language takes less
> time to evaluate than "a week or two".
You need to learn the difference between a computer and a human being.
You can teach a computer something new by just loading the data into
it, almost instantly, a megabyte in one second. You can't do that with
a human. It takes considerable time for a human to memorize such a
large amount of data. A computer programming language can be used in
minutes to create a new program for a computer. A CAI
(Computer-Assisted Instruction) program takes much much longer to teach
a human being a comparable amount of information. Please read:
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/ca5b3152a3e6d879
Message-ID: <·················@Yahoo.Com>
starting with the paragraph that says:
Unfortunately that instant-gratification mode of evaluation is not
suitable for CAI. A student can't learn the vocabulary of a foreign ...
where I explained in more detail how my program teaches successfully.
·······@Yahoo.Com (Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t) writes:
>
> How long did you actually spend with my flashcard-drill program
> getting a feel for the way it re-tests new cards frequently to get you
> past the mental block of remembering them at all, and then as soon as
> you get any of them right how it waits longer before re-testing to
> stretch your memory, longer and longer and longer until it's months
> before re-testing on the cards you have really truly learned but still
> need those rare re-tests to keep you from forgetting eventually?
That's actually an interesting-sounding little app, and could plausibly
be useful to a student. I checked out the flashcard site a few days
ago, and recall that I couldn't figure out how to make it work; just
checked out your site again and couldn't find it (thought that
services:demos would have it, but...).
It actually might have been very useful indeed to me back when i was
learning German, Latin & Anglo-Saxon all at once.
What's the URL? Is there a tutorial?
--
Robert Uhl <http://public.xdi.org/=ruhl>
And, isn't sanity really just a one trick pony anyway? I mean, all you get
is one trick: rational thinking. But when you're good and crazy, ooo hoo
hoo, the sky's the limit! --The Tick
·······@Yahoo.Com (Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t) writes:
>
> > One thing employers want is people who are able to find
> > and use existing tools/libraries/etc and who don't waste time
> > re-inventing stuff which is already available, but instead use what
> > is available to make them even more productive and put their energy
> > into dealing with new and as yet unsolved problems.
>
> Well if you know the *name* of some specialized tool, such as I did
> starting a few minutes ago when I reached that part of your newsgroup
> article, it's possible to look it up. But before you told me the name,
> if I merely wanted some way to overcome the pain of thumbball cursor
> for copy&paste, and had no idea that JDEE existed, it'd be much more
> difficult to know what to ask Google to find the needed info.
Poor excuse robert - you miss the point again. Employers want staff
who can find this staff, not ones who complain that its difficult
unless you know the name to look for - if you know the name, why wold
you look for it. The point is, you need to check and find existing
solutions prior to re-inventing the wheel. Employers are not willing
to pay for re-invention of existing solutions.
>
> > Some of your demo applications do not work correctly. According to
> > your software, my IP address cannot exist
Sure. The message I get is
Your IP number is: 59.167.0.32 Port#4468
According to my database, your IP number can't exist.
Which is a really great advertisment for your abilities!
> Please cite what of my software you're referring to, and what your IP
> number is, and what bogus not-exist message that particular program
> gave you, and I'll investigate this problem report.
>
> > Most of it also looks to be unfinished or buggy
>
> Again, you'll have to tell me what program you're talking about. My
> spam-complaint software is available only from my personal account on
> the shell machine. My software files are read-protected, so there's no
> way you could possibly be running my spam-complaint software unless you
> cracked into my account illegally. It's possible you ran some very
> small demo of some tiny part of it, but you have to tell me the URL of
> the CGI or PHP program you ran.
Note that I said it "looks" incomplete and buggy, not htat it is. The
point is its not giving the right impression regardless of whats
there.
> > I would suggest you also remeove the "Please Hire Me!" link
>
> Done.
>
> > employers ... most of the time, they want people who will be an asset
> > to them within weeks of starting.
>
> Why wait that long? I'm an asset already the first day I'm on the job.
No your not - no new employee is ever an asset on the first day. It
takes weeks, sometimes months before you are really an asset. You may
be able to perform simple tasks on your first day, but that does not
make you an asset.
> > I also think you need to start targeting employers which are more
> > within your league.
>
> Unless you have a more specific statment of what that means, either
> names of actual potential employers, or some specific way to find them,
> your statement is both derogatory and worthless.
You are trying to sell yourself as something you are not. You are not
experienced in anything any employer is interested in, you don't
appear to have any skills in any area which is in demand. The one
thing you may have is a good math background and therefore, you may
have more luck applying for programming jobs which require high math
skills.
> > Don't even try and get work programming CGI applications - there are
> > thousands of high school kids with more CGI experience than you.
>
> You're completely missing the point here. CGI is just a means of
> exposing my software to the Web. I have written lots of PDP-10
> software, but nobody nowadays has a PDP-10 to run it on, even I don't
> have a PDP-10 to run a demo on. I have written lots of Macintosh
> software, but I could never find anyone to come over to my apartment
> and look at a demo of any of it. I have written lots of Unix software,
> but again I could never find anyone to come to my apartment and let me
> give a demo by dialing into my shell account. But thanks to CMUCL I can
> port some of my old PSL or MacLisp or MACL software to run on Unix, as
> well as develop new software on Unix, and thanks to CGI I can set up
> demos of my Unix software that don't require somebody come over to my
> apartment to see it. The thousands of high-school kids you cite may
> have more CGI experience, but that's moot. They don't have the guts of
> the programs I've developed since 1970, and it's the application, not
> CGI, that is worth demonstrating (once I prove I can write and install
> serverside applications at all, which was part of the purpose of the
> 2001.Jan demo, and part of the purpose of the HelloPlus-3-steps demos
> in all of php perl lisp c c++ java so-far; I also have written JSP and
> HttpServlet applications, but my ISP doesn't have a J2EE server so I
> can't put them online at present).
If I'm missing the point, that should tell you something. Either your
posts and web site is not getting across what you really want or you
have confusion about what you really want. You choose.
> > there are some very interesting things which can be done with CGI
> > programs
>
> Are you referring to tricks with CGI itself, or just putting a strong
> UI-transaction-based client/server application behind it?
Neither - I'm talking about developing some new original application
of CGI. Forget about flashy little tricks or basic GUI stuff - thats
all basic and "dime a dozen". Come up with something original - apply
the technology in a way it hasn't been applied or if it has, in a new
way that is different and gives people a new perspective.
> > See what you can come up with which might catch someones
> > attention - you want someone to think "Hmmm, thats an interesting
> > idea, this guy might be worth talking to".
>
> Several times I've posted about various truly interesting applications
> I've done, and offered to spend the extra time to interface them to CGI
> for a public demo, and not once has anyone ever expressed an interest
> in seeing any of them. I've written many hundreds of programs, and I
> have no idea which one is worth spending an extra month converting to
> CMUCL and an extra few days interfacing to CGI, until and unless
> somebody express an interest in one specific program.
Has it not occured to you yet that perhaps your the only one on the
planet who things they are interesting? If something is truely
interesting, you don't have to push it hard.
> > The stuff you have described and have demos of is extremely basic
>
> How long did you actually spend with my flashcard-drill program getting
> a feel for the way it re-tests new cards frequently to get you past the
> mental block of remembering them at all, and then as soon as you get
> any of them right how it waits longer before re-testing to stretch your
> memory, longer and longer and longer until it's months before
> re-testing on the cards you have really truly learned but still need
> those rare re-tests to keep you from forgetting eventually? If you
> spent less than a half hour you really couldn't have gotten a feel for
> the strengths of the program, and likewise if you didn't come back on a
> daily basis for a week or two to see how it helps you develop long-term
> memory of the cards. -- What, you have total recall memory, everything
> that you ever encountered in your entire life is still fresh in your
> memory and organized for instant recall as appropriate, you know at
> least five thousand words each in at least thirty different foreign
> languages plus at least a hundred thousand words in your native
> language? Then you don't need my program which is for lesser
> memory-abled folks who have serious trouble remembering
> foreign-language vocabulary.
Are you kidding! I spent longer on your site than any prospective
employer would ever spend. You are not going to get someone to see the
wonders of your applications if it takes hours/days/weeks. You need to
get their interest in seconds and minutes.
> > I use to give weekly exercises to my students which were equivelent
> > in both complexity and the time necessary to do.
>
> I don't believe you.
>
> > CGI programs which are able to tell the user what their IP address is
> > or take any details from the data made available to the CGI program
> > from the server are nothing spectacular.
>
> I take it you're referring to my HelloPlus tutorial? That's primarily
> to compare the various languages for their ease in interfacing to CGI
> effectively, and to teach absolute beginners how to do it. For example,
> all the existing PHP tutorials I could find via Google said you just
> put the PHP file in your public_html directory, set permissions
> correctly, and it should work, and if it doesn't work then ask your ISP
> staff. Not one of them mentionned that you *also* need to create a
> .htaccess file in your public_html directory with appropriate
> permissions and with appropriate PHP recipe. But my tutorial includes
> that vital info. You're not appreciating my tutorials for what they
> are, tutorials. Please don't demean my serious applications such as my
> flashcard-drill or spam-auto-complaining by pretending they offer no
> more application seriousness than my beginner's tutorials.
Your incorrect yet again. The PHP manual was correct. The htaccess
stuff is not normally needed unless you have a server which is not
configured correctly for PHP or not configured to enable users to take
advantage of it. In fact, many web server configurations will not
allow you to do what you have done with htaccess because of potential
security issues.
> > unless you have a lot of hidden ability and experience which is not
> > reflected in your web site, I seriously doubt you will ever get a
> > programming job.
>
> You need to say precisely what Web site you're talking about here.
No, I don't need to state anything - I don't really care if you fix
things or not and I find it amazing you cannot work it out
anyway. However, I can tell you the website is the one you reference
in your name field (see ......)
--
Tim Cross
The e-mail address on this message is FALSE (obviously!). My real e-mail is
to a company in Australia called rapttech and my login is tcross - if you
really need to send mail, you should be able to work it out!
From: Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t
Subject: Bugfix(59/8=APNIC), math jobs (was: JDEE/CGI/flashcards ...)
Date:
Message-ID: <REM-2005aug19-006@Yahoo.Com>
> From: Tim X <····@spamto.devnul.com>
> The message I get is
> Your IP number is: 59.167.0.32 Port#4468
> According to my database, your IP number can't exist.
You didn't tell me which of my CGI applications you were running at the
time you got that error, so I had to do a grep on the text of the error
message you reported (good thing you did copy&paste instead of manually
paraphrasing the message) and I was thereby able to find which program
generated that message. The problem was that the previous time I
checked ARIN WHOIS on that IP address block 59/8 it was marked as
RESERVED, but since then it's been assigned to APNIC. You are the very
first person to report this particular change to me, and I immediately
updated my IP->CTW database for this block and a couple other blocks
that had also been recently assigned to APNIC, and one other that has
recently been assigned to a new African WHOIS that I never heard of
before. I'm not aware of any way to receive automated e-mail alerts
whenever ARIN changes a block from RESERVED to some actual in-use
status, without being flooded with unwanted e-mail on other topics. If
you know of any such very specific alert service, please let me know.
Because I'm not an IP-block registrant, I have no access to anyone at
ARIN to ask them directly for such a favor. So anyway, thanks for the
bug report so I could fix the problem quickly.
But I wish you would refrain from derogatory remarks about my software
until *after* you report a bug to me and give me suitable time to fix
it or not. If I fix the bug within one hour of first report, as I did
here, I don't deserve any reproach. I dare you to find *any* commercial
vendor who offers such rapid bug fixes, much less anyone offering
totally free software who offers such rapid bug fixes. Also, in the
future, please use my online Web-based short-message/alert system to
let me know immediately about any bugs in my software, rather than post
a bug report to a public forum which I might not see for days or weeks
or ever.
> > Again, you'll have to tell me what program you're talking about.
> Note that I said it "looks" incomplete and buggy, not htat it is. The
> point is its not giving the right impression regardless of whats
> there.
For the third time: You must tell me what program of mine you're
running when you make a remark that it looks buggy etc. It's completely
useless for you to make vague remarks that some program by Robert Maas
or by MicroSoft is buggy without saying what the fuck program you're
talking about before you post public comments about how it's buggy or
looks buggy or seems buggy etc. When I keep repeating that MicroSoft
InterNet Explorer with JavaScript enabled and running on most recent
verions of MicroSoft Windows has security problems such as buffer
overrun that allow trojans to take control of the computer and turn it
into a spam-spewing monster that does great harm to the InterNet, I'm
talking about a specific problem in a specific line of software with a
specific buggy feature enabled, having a problem that I've heard about
from multiple sources, not making some vague remark about some unknown
MicroSoft software that is buggy in some unstated way making MicroSoft
look bad in some general unspecified way. Do you see the difference
between the kind of bug reports I need (and finally got *after* you had
repeatedly publicly demeaned me and my software) compared to what you
posted on those previous occasions?
I take responsibility for my software, not that I believe anyone can
ever produce absolutely bug-free software that will automatically track
all changes in the world to remain bug-free and up-to-date forever
without ever needing any human intervention at any time, but that
whenever somebody reports a bug in my software I make every reasonable
effort to fix the bug as soon as feasible, even though I'm not getting
paid one cent for this continued customer support. Hmmm, nearly
everyone who posts open-source and other free software, provides
customer support *only* to paying customers, and a pay rate in the
range of $50-150 per hour for consulting. But I'm a nice guy who not
only provides free usage of some of my software but even free customer
support! Cut your griping if you want my freebies to continue!
By the way, in lieu of monetary payments for my services, I'm thinking
of asking for services in return. In particular I might set up an
automated way to make new individual accounts on my Web application
server, whereby the new user needs to perform some useful service to me
before the account is authorized, even before my system auto-mails the
request for confirmation of application for new account. This would
protect me from automated spam-bots getting thousands of accounts on my
server using Joe-job e-mail addresses thereby provoking my automated
new-account system to send thousands of requests for confirmation of
new account to innocent Joe-job third parties. This small-service
method of validating new accounts is better than Yahoo/Google's method
of "type the text that you see in the GIF" for two reasons: (1) It
doesn't discriminate against disabled people who need text-to-voice
translation of Web pages hence can't "see" GIFs at all, and (2) it
isn't vulnerable to automated proxy-text-in-GIF systems, which might be
the mechanism by which spammers have been registering for thousands of
Yahoo! Groups and spamming them all before the group owner can spot the
abuse and ban the spam-bots.
> no new employee is ever an asset on the first day. It takes weeks,
> sometimes months before you are really an asset. You may be able to
> perform simple tasks on your first day, but that does not make you an
> asset.
I don't do simple tasks, unless they haven't been automated yet.
I do high-level design and brainstorming on design, which can be useful
the first day on a new project. For example, at my previous significant
employment, my boss told me he had a new contract to develop CAI software
for calculus, and said he wanted something similar to the symbolic
logic CAI that I had previously helped port from SAIL to CL to PSL, and
promptly I came up with a basic idea how it might be done, which (with
embellishments) because the basic way that EQD (EQuational Derivation)
was implemented. So basically, without my idea the first day of the new
project, the project might have gotten nowhere. (Then I went ahead to
write a prototype of my idea, so that others could play with it and see
if it did everything that would be needed for providing a "sandbox" for
students to perform the steps necessary to set up and solve typical
word problems by taking derivatives and solving equations etc. The only
major change to the user interface that occurred after my prototype was
replacing my simple s-expression input routine with a parser that took
a more user-friendly syntax for derivation-step commands.)
> The one thing you may have is a good math background and therefore,
> you may have more luck applying for programming jobs which require
> high math skills.
I haven't seen any ads for any such jobs for longer than I can
remember. I could post a request for employment on sci.math newsgroup,
although I doubt it'd be of any value because my regular contributions
to that group haven't resulted in any comments of the type "Hey, I
noticed you seem to be unemployed at present, would you by chance be
interested in working on this pet math project of mine..." so I don't
think anyone like that even reads the newsgroup, but maybe it'd be
worth a shot in the dark? Can you think of any other ways to scrounge
up somebody with money and interest in hiring me for such a job?
> > You're completely missing the point here. CGI is just a means of
> > exposing my software to the Web. ... ... thanks to CGI I can set up
> > demos of my Unix software that don't require somebody come over to my
> > apartment to see it. ...
> If I'm missing the point, that should tell you something. Either your
> posts and web site is not getting across what you really want or you
> have confusion about what you really want. You choose.
I don't have any choice here. I haven't been offered a job in years. I
don't have the luxury of choosing this job or that job. I'm looking to
find any job that I can do well enough to be worth hiring me, I don't
care whether it's programming or tutoring or what. It never does any
good to want anything because I never get what I want, so wanting
anything specific is a waste of emotional energy, a surefire path to
frustration and disappointment. In the context of applying for a
specific advertised job I need to pretend I'm looking specifically for
that job and no other, and even tailor my experience and skills to look
like I'm well suited for just that kind of job, but otherwise I have to
keep my options open for any kind of job that may turn up. It's not
confusion to keep my options open and present *all* my various skills
talents expertise experience etc. equally. But if somehow I'm not
adequately expressing some of my skill areas, such that you believe I
didn't have such skills, I need to fix that aspect of my presentation,
and you or somebody may be useful to help me with that task. As I said
a few days ago, I'm currently in the process of dismantling nearly all
my past work on WAP pages, and rebuilding a new WebPage organization
that has nothing to do with WAP, so this is a good time for any
feedback on specific ways I can represent my skills better.
(Splitting this long reply here...)
On Fri, 19 Aug 2005 13:17:41 -0700, Robert Maas, see
http://tinyurl.com/uh3t wrote:
> I haven't seen any ads for any such jobs for longer than I can remember.
> I could post a request for employment on sci.math newsgroup, although I
> doubt it'd be of any value because my regular contributions to that
> group haven't resulted in any comments of the type "Hey, I noticed you
> seem to be unemployed at present, would you by chance be interested in
> working on this pet math project of mine..." so I don't think anyone
> like that even reads the newsgroup, but maybe it'd be worth a shot in
> the dark? Can you think of any other ways to scrounge up somebody with
> money and interest in hiring me for such a job?
Most jobs aren't going to state "requires someone savy in math". Math is
considered a core skill (like reading, writing, etc) and is automatically
expected. You can look at the jobs being offered and with a little
research see if they require someone with your math background. e.g.
medical devices, aeronautics, etc.
It seems that your view of open-source is very different from mine.
Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t writes:
> I dare you to find *any* commercial
> vendor who offers such rapid bug fixes, much less anyone offering
> totally free software who offers such rapid bug fixes.
Well, I do, sometimes. And I've witnessed other people do the
same thing, lots of times. A user posts a bug report on a mailing
list, and within an hour it is fixed, I mean.
It is the case in the open source world I live.
> Hmmm, nearly
> everyone who posts open-source and other free software, provides
> customer support *only* to paying customers, and a pay rate in the
> range of $50-150 per hour for consulting. But I'm a nice guy who not
> only provides free usage of some of my software but even free customer
> support!
Everyone I know who's working on his/her own open-source project
provides some degree of user support for totally free. It's
because less bugs or better usability makes the software better,
which itself is a reward. Of course those guys are using their
spare time to fix things, so they can't respond to all requests
from users, but usually they try their best to accomodate users'
needs. I've never heard of any open-source guy who charge for
fixing a simple bug.
You may be referring to the companies that provide support
for charge, but they're not majority of open-source developers.
And more importantly, there's a reason that they charge.
Remember, people pay money for what they want. There are
people who want a guaranteed support, no the "best-effort" one,
and thus they pay for it.
I charge when a customer asks me to solve their own specific
problem. They don't usually care whether I use open source
or proprietary software. They pay for the solution. I often
use OSS for such projects. It's cheaper for them, and it makes
my OSS more "battle-proven", so both parties gain.
I know some companies that provides similar services, that is,
build a custom system with open-source software and charge for it.
It is not the same thing as charging a simple customer support
like fixing a trivial bug. Indeed, providing simple best-effort
user support for free improves both customer satisfaction
and the quality of the software.
Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t wrote:
> Hmmm, nearly
> everyone who posts open-source and other free software, provides
> customer support *only* to paying customers, and a pay rate in the
> range of $50-150 per hour for consulting.
Except for various (ahem) web forums and newsgroups where people happily
answer questions about open-source (and commercial) stuff.
> But I'm a nice guy who not
> only provides free usage of some of my software but even free customer
> support! Cut your griping if you want my freebies to continue!
I'm sure the world appreciates these great contributions. :D
> By the way, in lieu of monetary payments for my services, I'm thinking
> of asking for services in return. In particular I might set up an
> automated way to make new individual accounts on my Web application
> server, whereby the new user needs to perform some useful service to me
> before the account is authorized, even before my system auto-mails the
> request for confirmation of application for new account.
I predict an avalanche of users trying to log in to your overloaded
system. Are you sure you can deal with and endless army of slaves?
Well, thanks for making my day...
--
I believe in Karma. That means I can do bad things to people
all day long and I assume they deserve it.
Dogbert
Tim X wrote:
>>> Some of your demo applications do not work correctly. According to
>>> your software, my IP address cannot exist
>
> Sure. The message I get is
>
> Your IP number is: 59.167.0.32 Port#4468
> According to my database, your IP number can't exist.
>
> Which is a really great advertisment for your abilities!
Well, I don't know what database that would be, but my brain's built-in
pattern recognition tells me that the '0' in that IP address is surely
odd! What network is that? Right now I can't ping it, but maybe
there's a firewall in between that eats pings...
--
I believe in Karma. That means I can do bad things to people
all day long and I assume they deserve it.
Dogbert
From: Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t
Subject: CGI not novel, instant CAI gratification is garbage (was: JDEE/CGI/flashcards ...)
Date:
Message-ID: <REM-2005aug19-007@Yahoo.Com>
> From: Tim X <····@spamto.devnul.com>
> > Are you referring to tricks with CGI itself, or just putting a strong
> > UI-transaction-based client/server application behind it?
> Neither - I'm talking about developing some new original application
> of CGI. ...
Then you're talking nonsense. CGI is just an interface to run
server-side applications. CGI is not an original application itself and
cannot be an original application in any sense.
I repeat in different words: What I do (except for the beginner's
tutorials) is set up server-side applications that run in client/server
UI-transaction mode: The user fills out a form in the client (browser)
program, submits the contents of the controls in the form across the
network to the server, the application (on the server) processes the
form-contents and performs some requested task locally on the server
(possibly making additional net connections to sub-contract some of the
work elsewhere) and returns a new form that shows the results of that
transaction and offers new options for the next transaction. (I've
skipped the part about encoding/decoding the form contents and
including MIME header and HTML framework on returned page with form.)
There's not much novelty in the basic CGI operation per se, and HTML
presents a restriction on what a form can contain and how it can be
used in ways that are universal across all browsers including those
without JavaScript or other active client-side software beyond the
basic emulation of the various controls allowed in HTML forms. All the
interesting work is in designing the application to work usefully in
such a client/server UI-transaction mode, and designing the form to lay
out the data in a way that is easy for the user to understand and
navigate. (Yeah, I admit my SegMat demo, the very first CGI demo I ever
wrote, has too many radio buttons which specific flavor of demo to run
before finally having the StartDemo button. If somebody wants, I can
break the form into several pieces, duplicating the HTML FORM framework
and the submit button and each of the general mode checkboxes in each
form, including just a small related group of radio buttons in each
form. Would anybody request that? In the 4.5 years since I wrote that
demo, not one person has made such a request, so that's why I haven't
bothered with the work of that tiny change so-far.)
One slightly illegal idea I've had recently is to apply a face over the
top of Google Groups broken-beta to fix the many bugs and broken-design
it has in user interface and basic operations. Whereas the original
Google Groups had a simple tree view that for really large threads
tended to exceed the 80-character limit and break lines into pieces
making it nearly illegible, at least it *did* show a true tree view in
ASCII-text which was, for not-too-large threads, very useful in
navigating followups and skipping sub-threads. The new Google Groups
Broken Beta has no connecting lines, just indented subjects, making it
very difficult to visually navigate, and it has a serious bug whereby
clicking on anything in the indented (not tree) view takes you not to
that particular article but to the first article in that group modulo
ten plus one (i.e. if you click on article 65, you get taken to article
61 instead, and you have to use your browser's local edit search
feature to search for "65." before you're at the correct article). My
idea is to return to the original Google tree-view but to make it avoid
going too deep and make the expansion/hiding of sub-trees selectable
just like in the directory-tree view in MS-Windows and Linux/Gnome, as
well as fix the bugs so that if you click on one article from tree view
you go to that article not first-of-group, and also fixing another bug
that was introduced in GG2, if you click on "view as tree" it goes to
the very top of the tree whereas GG1 showed the whole tree but set
cursor on the particular article you had just come from, I'd revert to
GG1 in that behaviour. If I developed this just for my own use, it'd be
a lot of work just to help one person, but if I allowed others to use
it, I'd probably get sued by Google for copyright infringement or
somesuch, or my ISP would be blocked from all Google access and when my
ISP's admin found out I'd lose my account, so I'm pretty much
restricted to doing all that work just for myself with no way to show
it to anyone outside my apartment.
> You are not going to get someone to see the wonders of your
> applications if it takes hours/days/weeks. You need to get their
> interest in seconds and minutes.
Unfortunately that instant-gratification mode of evaluation is not
suitable for CAI. A student can't learn the vocabulary of a foreign
language, and a pre-school child can't learn how to read and spell the
thousand most common words, or even the first twenty, in seconds or
minutes. It takes drill over a long period of time to reinforce
short-term memory and build it into long-term memory. (And the
statistical results of working with my algorithm show clearly that
there are actually not two but three different spans of human memory:
Short-term like your immediate train of thought, medium-term from a few
minutes to a couple days, and long-term of months or years. My software
effectively bridges both the short/medium barrier and the medium/long
barrier in one unified system. There's no way to demonstrate the
short/medium transition in less than ten to twenty minutes, and there's
no way to demonstrate the medium/long transition in less than a week.)
So how do I get the point across to potential employers/educators that
my method really works and my online algorithm really implements the
working method and it's available to demonstrate to prove I'm not
making this up?
By the way, IMO one of the major problems with both textbooks and
computer-assisted instruction (CAI) nowadays is that the only thing
anybody with money cares about is flashy
graphics/images/photos/animation, nobody with money cares about whether
the software (or book) really teaches anything to students. They
evaluate new software, or books, by looking at screen-capture images,
or leafing through the pages, for less than one minute, getting an idea
how "pretty" it is, and using that as the sole judgement for deciding
whether to use that book or program in schools. That's one of the major
reasons evolution is taking a hit: It takes longer than two minutes to
understand evolution by natural selection, whereas it takes less than
two minutes to say "goddidit" and sing the first verse of some hymn to
fire up the emotions. Johnny can play video games, but Johnny can't read.
(Breaking long reply again here...)
From: Tim X
Subject: Re: CGI not novel, instant CAI gratification is garbage (was: JDEE/CGI/flashcards ...)
Date:
Message-ID: <8764u1b5z8.fsf@tiger.rapttech.com.au>
·······@Yahoo.Com (Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t) writes:
> > From: Tim X <····@spamto.devnul.com>
> > > Are you referring to tricks with CGI itself, or just putting a strong
> > > UI-transaction-based client/server application behind it?
>
> > Neither - I'm talking about developing some new original application
> > of CGI. ...
>
> Then you're talking nonsense. CGI is just an interface to run
> server-side applications. CGI is not an original application itself and
> cannot be an original application in any sense.
No wonder you can't get a job!
CGI is the base on which many web applications are built. It is
essentially a gateway for stdin/stdout from the web server, with a few
additional bits of information provided via basic environment
settings. However, applications which use this are commonly referred
to as CGI applications or more correctly CGI based applications. What
I said was that you need to find some "new original application of
CGI". I did not say CGI was an application.
<nipped pointless rant>
--
Tim Cross
The e-mail address on this message is FALSE (obviously!). My real e-mail is
to a company in Australia called rapttech and my login is tcross - if you
really need to send mail, you should be able to work it out!
From: Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t
Subject: Re: CGI not novel, instant CAI gratification is garbage (was: JDEE/CGI/flashcards ...)
Date:
Message-ID: <REM-2005aug22-008@Yahoo.Com>
> From: Tim X <····@spamto.devnul.com>
> CGI is the base on which many web applications are built. It is
> essentially a gateway for stdin/stdout from the web server, with a few
> additional bits of information provided via basic environment
> settings.
Except when using the GET method where there's no stdin at all, only
query_string.
> However, applications which use this are commonly referred
> to as CGI applications or more correctly CGI based applications. What
> I said was that you need to find some "new original application of
> CGI". I did not say CGI was an application.
So what you really meant to say was "new original application, which
works nicely with CGI". OK, your original wording, with insistance on
CGI instead of application as the key ingredient of newness, seemed to
say you wanted something new about CGI or something new about way that
CGI is actually used, instead of merely something new about an
application that is in fact using CGI in the usual way to bundle
stdin/query_string and stdout per the UI-transaction mode of overall
program operation. So just about any application whose input can be
reasonably restricted to what form contents can supply, and whose
output can be reasonably restricted to what HTML can render, and whose
overall mode of operation can be reasonbly made to conform with
UI-transaction, is a candidate for an application accessible via CGI.
In various newsgroups over the last several years I've suggested
several ideas I had for applications I already have and could easily
adapt to CGI, or new applications I haven't written yet which would be
good candidates to develop under CGI almost from the start. Did you see
any of my several such ideas, and did any of them sound like something
not already done by somebody else yet worth doing now, so that you
might encourage me to do them and show you the result as soon as I have
it online? Or is everything I ever did or said I could do something
that somebody else already did, so even if it's trivial for me to
interface my work to CGI there's no value in showing you my work
because you'd just say it's already done and not worth showing off?
For example: Do you know of any free online service whereby some daemon
watches my Yahoo! Mail account and any time a new message arrives which
is not spam it sends some kind of alert (possibly via RSS) across the
net to my own server? Likewise a daemon which watches each Yahoo! Group
that I want to monitor, sending an alert whenever a new message is
posted? Likewise a daemon that watches the newsfeed, specifically just
the threads that I am following, or even more specifically just the
portions of those threads where I haven't yet lost interest, especially
all followups to anything I posted, and sends an alert whenever such an
article is posted? Do you know of any free consolidator service or
open-source software that can listen for these alerts, be configured to
assign priorities to each source, and keep track of what the highest
current alert level is, and when I log in it tells me what the current
alert level is, and after I'm logged in whenever the alert level
increases it immediately bleeps my VT100 terminal to tell me what the
new alert level is? And at any time I can go to my local WebPage that
interfaces to that consolidator, and see a menu of the various alert
levels and what is posted to each, and can then go into a alert level
to browse the various sources, and can go into each source to browse
the actual messages, and can tag a message as already-seen any time I
want to eliminate it from the alert system? If there isn't any such
system already existing, would you be impressed if I made such a system
and put a demo of it up for you to try for free?
From: [Invalid-From-Line]
Subject: Re: CGI not novel, instant CAI gratification is garbage (was: JDEE/CGI/flashcards ...)
Date:
Message-ID: <87mzn8ns6t.fsf@kafka.homenet>
·······@Yahoo.Com (Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t) writes:
> For example: Do you know of any free online service whereby some daemon
> watches my Yahoo! Mail account and any time a new message arrives which
> is not spam it sends some kind of alert (possibly via RSS) across the
> net to my own server?
Already done.
There are many yahoo mail and gmail notifiers.
> want to eliminate it from the alert system? If there isn't any such
> system already existing, would you be impressed if I made such a system
> and put a demo of it up for you to try for free?
No.
Not when you cannot even install a web browser.
--
Seek simplicity and mistrust it.
Alfred Whitehead
A witty saying proves nothing.
Voltaire
·······@Yahoo.Com (Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t) writes:
> [...]
> For example: Do you know of any free online service whereby some daemon
> watches my Yahoo! Mail account and any time a new message arrives which
> is not spam it sends some kind of alert (possibly via RSS) across the
> net to my own server?
Yes. I've got fetchmail running on my system; it collects new mail in
my yahoo accounts and forwards it to my local mailbox. When I had a
GSM, I had it forward them to my GSM...
> Likewise a daemon which watches each Yahoo! Group
> that I want to monitor, sending an alert whenever a new message is
> posted?
I've got a 60-line lisp scripts that watches specified web pages and
forward them by email when they change. For a time I used a web
server that did that, but since they stopped doing it (or doing it
freely), I just hacked this script in 5 minutes.
There are also alot of RSS tools, for example, I use rss2email which
does the same as my script for RSS feeds.
> Likewise a daemon that watches the newsfeed, specifically just
> the threads that I am following, or even more specifically just the
> portions of those threads where I haven't yet lost interest, especially
> all followups to anything I posted, and sends an alert whenever such an
> article is posted?
> Do you know of any free consolidator service or
> open-source software that can listen for these alerts, be configured to
> assign priorities to each source, and keep track of what the highest
> current alert level is, and when I log in it tells me what the current
> alert level is, and after I'm logged in whenever the alert level
> increases it immediately bleeps my VT100 terminal to tell me what the
> new alert level is?
> And at any time I can go to my local WebPage that
> interfaces to that consolidator, and see a menu of the various alert
> levels and what is posted to each, and can then go into a alert level
> to browse the various sources, and can go into each source to browse
> the actual messages, and can tag a message as already-seen any time I
> want to eliminate it from the alert system?
> If there isn't any such
> system already existing, would you be impressed if I made such a system
> and put a demo of it up for you to try for free?
I don't know if anything like this exists. This kind of little tools
are nothing from the other world. Their basic functionnality can be
developed in an afternoon. So it's nothing to be impressed by, or to
brag about.
Perhaps if it was very complete, usable by anybody, adaptable to
anybody needs, including AI to automatically detect what the user is
interested by, and to set the "alert" levels automatically,
intelligently and adaptatively, if it was able to contact you by new
means of communication if it could not communicate an important alert
via email (eg if something it thought important to you occured and
you'd not connect to the internet soon enough, it'd browse the web to
find a speach synthesising software, integrate it, browse the web to
find a voip service connected to the POTS network, browse the web to
find your phone number, and would call you to alert you about this
important thing you need to know. Then yes, I'd be impressed by such
an AI agent.
But by code I could write in an afternoon, no.
--
"A TRUE Klingon warrior does not comment his code!"
From: Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t
Subject: PHP, fixing bugs (was: JDEE/CGI/flashcards ...)
Date:
Message-ID: <REM-2005aug19-008@Yahoo.Com>
> From: Tim X <····@spamto.devnul.com>
> The PHP manual was correct. The htaccess stuff is not normally needed
> unless you have a server which is not configured correctly for PHP or
> not configured to enable users to take advantage of it.
There's nothing wrong with the PHP configuration here on this Unix
shell ISP. It's simply configured to disable PHP by default until and
unless a particular user enables it for their individual account. This
seems to be a good idea generally, because somebody might accidently
download a PHP file into their regular public_html directory and not
realize they've accidently installed a program with full access to
their account yet runnable from the network. On a commercial ISP with
anyone with $20 per month able to get an account, lots of them knowing
nothing whatsoever about CGI or PHP etc., this could be a real security
concern. Only users who know they are going to be writing/installing
PHP applications would enable PHP for their accounts, and presumably
such people would be aware of the security dangers and take the same
precautions as they do with their cgi-bin directory which is enabled by
default. Any decent PHP tutorial of general interest should mention the
various common options of security configurations, such as .htaccess.
In my case, I show how to do it on the only system where I have any
access, but if somebody is willing to do the same thing on some system
where .htaccess isn't needed or where something else is needed, using
the same format I use for having one link to run the PHP program and a
separate link for displaying the source, I'd be glad to include a link
to their demo in my tutorial. (I hope the person who wrote the tutorial
I was using to get started will eventualy update it to mention the
.htaccess problem as something to check *before* bothering the sysadmin
with a stupid question.)
> I don't really care if you fix things or not
Oh, then I'm sorry I promptly fixed it for you as soon as you told me
enough of the error message to find what code generated it and under
what circumstances so that I could fix it. But I'm not sorry I fixed
it, because other more deserving people will be benefitted by the fix.
> and I find it amazing you cannot work it out anyway. However, I can
> tell you the website is the one you reference in your name field
Well my uh3t link points to WebPages that point to a large quantity of
both WebPages and CGI/PHP appliations, and I really don't have the time
to run down every path trying every program I ever wrote in the hope of
accidently recognizing a problem that never occurs when I run it but
only when somebody in that brand-new APNIC block runs it. If I were a
supernatural being with ability to travel all over the world in an
instant and simultaneously try all my software from every computer in
the world, and collate all the experiments together to spot the one
place in the world where one of my programs showed a problem, I could
use that ability to knock Bill Gates out of a job and eliminate all
trojaned MS-Windows systems in the world and eliminate all open
relays/proxies in the world and put all spammers to death, and wouldn't
the world be a nicer place with all spammers and trojans/worms/viruses
gone? But I'm just one guy here in California, and nobody has given me
access to their APNIC IP account, so there's no way I could have
discovered that bug by normal playing with my own software. I depend on
bug reports from users around the world to spot bugs that affect them
but never affect me.
From: Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t
Subject: Trying to get a job, any job (was: can anyone offer Lisp job?)
Date:
Message-ID: <REM-2005aug19-004@Yahoo.Com>
(last of 4 parts of long reply broken by topic)
> your first goal shouuld [sic] be to get the money.
Having a goal, and achieving it, are two entirely different things.
For more than ten years my primary goal has been getting the money, but
so-far I haven't been able to achieve that goal.
> get any job you can
I've been trying that for more than ten years, but haven't been able to
get any job whatsoever in all that time. Focus for Work, of Catholic
Charities, put me through a special workshop to try to find alternate
kinds of work, and the conclusion of the workshop was that computer
programming is the only work I'm qualified to do. From time to time I
scan *all* the want-ads, looking for any job I think I could do, for
which I'm qualified, and haven't found even one.
Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t wrote:
> > get any job you can
>
> I've been trying that for more than ten years, but haven't been able to
> get any job whatsoever in all that time.
Have you tried selling T-shirts near Fisherman's Wharf and similar
lines of work? Surprisingly, I've heard they make more than the
minimum wage. And I don't think there is much learning involved.
·······@Yahoo.Com (Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t) writes:
> shrink-wrapped, the reasons for mostly-USA production of software are
> gone, so I expect the USA fraction to decrease now.
In addition, non-US software customers are an exponentially increasing
fraction of the market.
There is no special reason for an Australian or a German to
want US made software.
> By the way, Thursday I learned of a new job-ad site, and looked for
> Lisp jobs there, not a single listing *sigh*, then I checked for Java
> jobs, a whole bunch *ohwell*.
One does lisp not for the sake of a job, but because it has
buddha-nature. :-)
On Mon, 18 Apr 2005 17:34:25 -0500, Ulrich Hobelmann <···········@web.de> wrote:
> ············@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> Of the currently available Common Lisp implementations, are those
>> maintained by people of Russian, German or any other origin better
>> or worse than those written in the USA by offsprings of pilgrims?
>
> I think the commercial ones (Franz, Xanalys) are US-based.
You think that but it's not true. (Hint: Replace "Xanalys" with
"LispWorks", that's how they're called now, and check their website.)
Edi.
--
Lisp is not dead, it just smells funny.
Real email: (replace (subseq ·········@agharta.de" 5) "edi")
Edi Weitz <········@agharta.de> writes:
> You think that but it's not true. (Hint: Replace "Xanalys" with
> "LispWorks", that's how they're called now, and check their website.)
Office Address
LispWorks Ltd.
St John's Innovation Centre
Cowley Road
Cambridge
CB4 0WS
England
Ulrich Hobelmann <···········@web.de> wrote in news:3ciqvhF6o44mmU1
>
> Maybe it's because things are cheaper in Hungary and therefore the
> Hungarian guy can live on less money. Maybe it's because less
> people import things from Hungary (that is changing), so their
> currency might be cheap (does Hungary have the Euro? I'm SO
> uninformed!).
>
> It might not make sense to pay the US guy more money, no. In a
> worldwide economy you might even consider that discriminating
> against foreigners ;)
One factor you should take into consideration: various countries, such
as China, don't have laws about workplace safety or worker treatment
that the USA does. In many cases, the foreign worker is cheaper not
just because of economic disparity, but because it's more acceptable in
that country for workers to be exploited. It's very difficult to
compete on such an uneven playing field. Corporations, as you may be
aware, rarely have a conscience. This is at the heart of WTO protests
and the like. There's always this tension as to whether industrialized
nations have developed standards that are more safe / more equitable to
its citizens, vs. poor countries that don't give a shit, are behind
economically, and just want to catch up as fast as possible, damn the
cost to people.
There is of course the reverse argument of how much safety and
regulation is of benefit to a society, vs. how much is needless red tape
by some overbearing rulesmonger. These competing value systems
ultimately have to just fight it out.
> Note: I'm a proponent of global free trade, so I don't really care
> where anything comes from as long as it's good, cheap, and created
> without badly exploiting people and violating human rights.
That last clause is a huge caveat.
--
Cheers, www.indiegamedesign.com
Brandon Van Every Seattle, WA
"The pioneer is the one with the arrows in his back."
- anonymous entrepreneur
Brandon J. Van Every wrote:
> One factor you should take into consideration: various countries, such
> as China, don't have laws about workplace safety or worker treatment
> that the USA does. In many cases, the foreign worker is cheaper not
> just because of economic disparity, but because it's more acceptable in
> that country for workers to be exploited. It's very difficult to
> compete on such an uneven playing field. Corporations, as you may be
> aware, rarely have a conscience. This is at the heart of WTO protests
> and the like. There's always this tension as to whether industrialized
> nations have developed standards that are more safe / more equitable to
> its citizens, vs. poor countries that don't give a shit, are behind
> economically, and just want to catch up as fast as possible, damn the
> cost to people.
Yes, but the consumer has all power not to buy from that company.
Infortunately most people don't give a s**t about that. I buy
"normal" clothes, too, just because I'm not really aware of good
alternatives. I try to buy fairly traded coffee and chocolate,
though.
> There is of course the reverse argument of how much safety and
> regulation is of benefit to a society, vs. how much is needless red tape
> by some overbearing rulesmonger. These competing value systems
> ultimately have to just fight it out.
As long as there is no worldwide enforcement of human rights (and
thoses countries also don't care), only the consumer can kick some
ass by complaining and not buying.
>>Note: I'm a proponent of global free trade, so I don't really care
>>where anything comes from as long as it's good, cheap, and created
>>without badly exploiting people and violating human rights.
>
>
> That last clause is a huge caveat.
True. But restricting the freedom of trade doesn't improve any of
this, either.
--
No man is good enough to govern another man without that other's
consent. -- Abraham Lincoln
"Brandon J. Van Every" <·····················@mycompanyname.com> writes:
> One factor you should take into consideration: various countries, such
> as China, don't have laws about workplace safety or worker treatment
> that the USA does.
So ?
The US does not have laws on paternity leave or non-discrimination against gays
that many other countries do.
israel wrote:
>"Brandon J. Van Every" <·····················@mycompanyname.com> writes:
>
>
>
>>One factor you should take into consideration: various countries, such
>>as China, don't have laws about workplace safety or worker treatment
>>that the USA does.
>>
>>
>
>So ?
>The US does not have laws on paternity leave or non-discrimination against gays
>that many other countries do.
>
>
The goodness of a given country's laws is a sliding scale. Judge
accordingly. I can't remember what states, if any, have laws against
discrimination by sexual orientation, although I'm inclined to guess
Califorina does and I can't remember about Washington. Many companies
in the USA have explicit policies of not discriminating against gays,
although of course lacking a law, taking legal action on such matters
would be more difficult. Not impossible though: when companies have a
uniform policy, one can indeed sue for being treated differently than
one's peers.
--
Cheers, www.indiegamedesign.com
Brandon Van Every Seattle, WA
"The pioneer is the one with the arrows in his back."
- anonymous entrepreneur
From: Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t
Subject: Re: can anyone offer Lisp job?
Date:
Message-ID: <REM-2005apr20-003@Yahoo.Com>
> From: Ulrich Hobelmann <···········@web.de>
> How do you distinguish crap from quality?
Well as a starter you could define a complete set of "use cases", and
then test several examples of each such case just to make sure the
programmer hasn't overlooked or grossly flubbed one of them.
> It might not make sense to pay the US guy more money, no.
No need to pay me more than the Hungarian or Indian guy. I don't ask
for a large hourly wage. I'd rather get less than somebody in Hungary
or India, than get nothing at all as I'm currently getting.
Any pay for my work is an improvement from the current situation.
> But I think there's nothing wrong with supporting local brands and
> companies (and it reduces transportation of material goods all
> over the globe).
Is anybody keeping a list of the companies which outsource the largest
quantity of software programming, so that we might target those
companies to try to pursuade them to support local labor, or start a
boycott against those who refuse to hire local labor even when it's
available at a lower cost than foreign labor?
Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t <·······@Yahoo.Com> schrieb:
> I'd rather get less than somebody in Hungary or India, than get
> nothing at all as I'm currently getting. Any pay for my work is an
> improvement from the current situation.
It doesn't have to be; you can invest your time in making yourself more
employable, which is worth much more in the long term than spending all
your time in dead-end work for minimum wage. Also see "opportunity
cost". Working a crappy job means *losing* whatever benefit you could
see from spending that time in ways more valuable to you.
From: Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t
Subject: Re: can anyone offer Lisp job?
Date:
Message-ID: <REM-2005jul27-028@Yahoo.Com>
> From: Adrian Kubala <···········@sixfingeredman.net>
> you can invest your time in making yourself more employable
I've already been doing that year after year after year:
- Teaching myself new technologies.
- Taking classes for other new technologies.
- Working in various public-service efforts.
- Writing major useful software tool-packages and applications.
- Setting up Web-server-side demos of some of my software.
Despite being much more employable now than when I last had a job,
still nobody has offered to hire me or even interview me in more than
ten years. In the 4.5 years since I taught myself CGI programming and
started putting demos, I've been able to find only one person in the
local area (at Volt) to seriously look at one of my early demos in
early 2001 and nobody else in all the more than four years since then.
That guy at Volt really liked my demo, said it was fun, but he recruits
only for MicroSoft, which has not been hiring any time from the start
of 2001 to now, so he hasn't been able to refer me to any interview.
BTW What are you doing for living all this years ?
Few days ago i had a drink with one of my former
boss Carl ,he was layed of two years ago and now
he's in the furniture business with his father in law.
and his doing pretty good , designer suit , BMW
i must admit that i am little bit jealous .
Now he doesn't want to get back in the software business
though he was the best coder i had a chance to work for .
He decide to be where they want him and where the money is .
Maybe you should check your options too .
Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t wrote:
> > From: Adrian Kubala <···········@sixfingeredman.net>
> > you can invest your time in making yourself more employable
>
> I've already been doing that year after year after year:
> - Teaching myself new technologies.
> - Taking classes for other new technologies.
> - Working in various public-service efforts.
> - Writing major useful software tool-packages and applications.
> - Setting up Web-server-side demos of some of my software.
> Despite being much more employable now than when I last had a job,
> still nobody has offered to hire me or even interview me in more than
> ten years. In the 4.5 years since I taught myself CGI programming and
> started putting demos, I've been able to find only one person in the
> local area (at Volt) to seriously look at one of my early demos in
> early 2001 and nobody else in all the more than four years since then.
> That guy at Volt really liked my demo, said it was fun, but he recruits
> only for MicroSoft, which has not been hiring any time from the start
> of 2001 to now, so he hasn't been able to refer me to any interview.
Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t wrote:
>>From: Adrian Kubala <···········@sixfingeredman.net>
>>you can invest your time in making yourself more employable
>
>
> I've already been doing that year after year after year:
> - Teaching myself new technologies.
> - Taking classes for other new technologies.
> - Working in various public-service efforts.
> - Writing major useful software tool-packages and applications.
> - Setting up Web-server-side demos of some of my software.
> Despite being much more employable now than when I last had a job,
> still nobody has offered to hire me or even interview me in more than
> ten years. In the 4.5 years since I taught myself CGI programming and
> started putting demos, I've been able to find only one person in the
> local area (at Volt) to seriously look at one of my early demos in
> early 2001 and nobody else in all the more than four years since then.
> That guy at Volt really liked my demo, said it was fun, but he recruits
> only for MicroSoft, which has not been hiring any time from the start
> of 2001 to now, so he hasn't been able to refer me to any interview.
Start your own company.
Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t wrote:
>
>Is anybody keeping a list of the companies which outsource the largest
>quantity of software programming, so that we might target those
>companies to try to pursuade them to support local labor, or start a
>boycott against those who refuse to hire local labor even when it's
>available at a lower cost than foreign labor?
>
>
I know I've seen sites that put various companies on shitlists for
worker maltreatment. But darned if I can't find 'em in my bookmarks
now. My job bookmarks are a complete mess, unlike all my other ones
which are neat and orderly. Anyways, Google is your friend. For that
trouble, you'd be better off just getting on with a more traditional job
hunt, though.
--
Cheers, www.indiegamedesign.com
Brandon Van Every Seattle, WA
"The pioneer is the one with the arrows in his back."
- anonymous entrepreneur
From: Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t
Subject: Re: can anyone offer Lisp job?
Date:
Message-ID: <REM-2005aug12-002@Yahoo.Com>
> From: "Brandon J. Van Every" <·····················@mycompanyname.com>
> you'd be better off just getting on with a more traditional job hunt
I.e. watching job ads for anything I qualify for and then applying?
It's been more than ten years since I saw even one job ad that I
qualified for, so your idea has been tried and has showed itself to be
totally worthless for more than ten years and counting.
I.e. sending my resume to one or more employment agencies, recruiters,
headhunters, contracting agencies, etc. and waiting for them to call me
with an interview? Not one agency that I sent my resume to has *ever*
sent me on even one interview since 1991 when I became unemployed and
started contacting them. I tried nearly a hundred of them, mostly in
the local area or advertising in the local area:
Abreau & Assoc.
J. Frank & Associates Inc.
Adia Personnel Services
Bob Galpren
Spectral Innovations, Inc.
International Programming & Systems
Benson & McBride
Dan Smith & Emerson Brooks
American Technical
TELOS CONSULTING SERVICES
Lynch Contracting Services
Base Line Engineering
Rational Technology
Advanced Decision Systems, a division of Booz, Allen, and Hamilton
The Wilson Group
Deltam Systems, Inc.
Starflight Corp.
PHD Consulting, Inc.
Commercial Programming Systems, Inc.
Murray Enterprises
Coast Personnel
Tad Technical
David Hicks Associates
H.L.Yoh
General Employment
Executive Systems Group
San Francisco Systems, Inc.
COMPUTEC INTERNATIONAL RESOURCES, INC.
ESC = Executive Search Consultants
SYSTEMS PARTNERS
(was:Snelling) Now called Robert Half International
Knauer Consulting
Technical Resource Connection Inc
Personalized Agency
Western Tech
Office Specialists
XXCAL Inc.
INTELLITRON
Butler Service Group Inc.
Innovative Information Systems, Inc.
Pacific NetSoft, Inc.
International Programming & Systems
THE COMPUTER RESOURCES GROUP, INC.
Softsol Resources, Inc.
GENTRY, INC.
The Contractors Network
Ideal Design Inc.
SEARCH SPECIALISTS
BREN NORRIS ASSOCIATES, INC.
ProSource Triple T Inc.
Mason Concepts, Inc.
Scientific Placement, Inc.
Network Consulting
GW Consulting
Tri-Pacific Consulting Corp.
WINDWARD GROUP, INC.
BAL ASSOCIATES, INC.
Oxford & Associates Inc.
M K Technical Services Inc.
Software Engineering Solutions, Inc
Management Recruiters
Kristin Speer
J.Q.Turner & Associates, Inc
The Avery Group
CHAMBERLAIN ASSOCIATES, INC.
SYSTEMS SOLUTIONS GROUP
Contract Software Brokers
Roger Clay
SynOptics Communications Inc
The Application Group, Inc.
Webster & Associates
Kelly Technical Services
Midcom Corp.
DPI SERVICES, INC.
Sunday and Associates
COES Personnel
McCoy Ltd
Baldwin Forrester and Company
Tech Aid
Mindsource Software Engineers, Inc.
Mini-Systems Associates
The Trattner Network
Hall Kinion
PROFESSIONAL CONSULTING NETWORK, INC.
Bozich & Cruz, Inc.
Surf Software
Tech Search
Sequent Associates
ROBERT QUINN ASSOCIATES
Global Dynamics, Inc.
Volt Technical Services
Edward Bell Associates
FORTUNE Personnel Consultants
Heuristics Search (***)
EXECUTIVE DIRECTION CONSULTING
MicroTemps
Ategra Systems, Inc.
Lloyd Ritter & Associates
Acustaff
*** (The one that lost all records that I had come in and filled out
many pages of their application, see below. Boycott them!!)
Or even formally signing up for an employment agency where I spend
several hours copying all my information from my C.V. to their
application form, and then when I call later to see if they've found a
job they have no record that I ever filled out their forms and they
want me to come back in and fill them out all over again?
I really need some *other* way to obtain a job,
some way that actually works.
Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t wrote:
> I.e. watching job ads for anything I qualify for and then applying?
> It's been more than ten years since I saw even one job ad that I
> qualified for, so your idea has been tried and has showed itself to be
> totally worthless for more than ten years and counting.
Then do you expect anybody out there would hire you? Why should they?
If you really want a job, you should make sure you qualify for them!
I.e. do what it takes to learn Java technologies, etc.
> I.e. sending my resume to one or more employment agencies, recruiters,
> headhunters, contracting agencies, etc. and waiting for them to call me
> with an interview? Not one agency that I sent my resume to has *ever*
> sent me on even one interview since 1991 when I became unemployed and
> started contacting them.
Hardly surprising, if you don't qualify for most of them.
> I really need some *other* way to obtain a job,
> some way that actually works.
Learn and do something that companies out there *want*. Of course with
your background, chances aren't *great*, but you could definitely improve.
--
I believe in Karma. That means I can do bad things to people
all day long and I assume they deserve it.
Dogbert
From: Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t
Subject: What do companies want? (was: can anyone offer Lisp job?)
Date:
Message-ID: <REM-2005aug19-005@Yahoo.Com>
> From: Ulrich Hobelmann <···········@web.de>
> Then do you expect anybody out there would hire you?
Yes.
> Why should they?
Because I'm very good at analyzing new D/P problems and figuring out
ways to solve them. I'm very good at understanding the mathematical or
information-access aspects of a problem.
> If you really want a job, you should make sure you qualify for them!
I *do* qualify for the actual job of getting work done. What I don't
qualify for are the petty restrictions in the job ads used to screen
out all qualified candicates in favor of those who happen to know
exactly the correct ten different languages put in by the stupid
advertiser. The people who write those job ads are idiots, and I don't
have magic powers to enlighten them.
> do what it takes to learn Java technologies, etc.
I already did that, not just with all the facilities that DeAnza
college has available for students, but beyond that using J2EE that I
installed on my laptop in lieu of DeAnza having any J2EE available.
But I've reached the limit of what I can do with just my laptop and not
any second machine to connect it to.
> Learn and do something that companies out there *want*.
Do you have any specific suggestions?
I have software that could help train their new employees, but I've
never found any company that needed or wanted any such facility.
I have experience in analyzing applications and converting them to work
in a UI-transaction-mode client/server environment, but I've never
found any company that needed or wanted any such facility beyond what
they've already done with their existing employees.
I have ideas to develop which would make numerical calculations much
more reliable than they are with ordinary floating-point, so somebody
could write a program to calculate some set of values and actually
trust the output it produces, but nobody is interested in that.
I have many old programs I could convert to the latest platform, but
nobody has expressed any interest in any of them.
Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t wrote:
> > Learn and do something that companies out there *want*.
>
> Do you have any specific suggestions?
Do you realize that is THE hard problem to solve here? I mean,
to figure out what people want. People pay money for what
they want. So do employers. If your goal is to earn money,
the first problem you need to solve is to figure out what they
want. Solving specific technical problems is secondary---no
matter how hard the technical problem is, it is no use to earn
money if nobody wants it. (I don't deny the effort to tackle
hard technical problems. I like doing that, too. But earning
money is in a different problem domain.)
There are some lucky guys who are just working on technical
problems they're interested in, which happen to be what people
want. Many of us aren't that lucky. Also, newly graduates
usually aren't required so much to be aware of what people want
from them, since employers pay for their potential. If you've
spent several years after finishing school, however, you're
expected to have some ideas about what people want.
So, set your primary goal to figure out what people want. It's
all secondary how sophisticated your demos are, or how good
you're at solving specific technical problems. If nobody has
cared them, then they're not what people want, or they're badly
presented (read: they're not presented in the way people want to see).
You can't expect people to tell what they want straightforwardly
if you ask them, since people often don't know what they want
at the surface of their consciousness, or cannot articulate it.
It only emerges from interactions and communication. And it's
your responsibility to initiate and drive the conversation
to make it happen. Keep in mind that people don't expose what
they want to a total stranger; you have to gain their trust as
well. It takes time and patience.
There are some specific suggestions from my experience.
(I've been working as a consultant for a few years, and more than
half of the projects I did was Lisp/Scheme related.)
If you have a brilliant technical idea and an implementation to
demonstrate it, show it to the world. Giving a talk at technical
conference is one effective way (After I give a talk, I'm often
contacted from several companies/individuals about potential
projects). But it requires you to register to the conference
and travel, and you may want to avoid expenses. If it's the case,
you can write up an article and post it to the web and/or relevant
newsgroups. There are people who thinks giving out ideas free
is crazy and try to hide the "meat" of the idea. In reality,
most ideas are cheaper than you think; usually the more you show,
the more value you get, in the form of feedbacks, reputation,
and recognition of your concrete problem solving skills.
(And if the article is really good, somebody might actually
invite you to give a talk!)
Open source projects work similary. You put effort in implementing
something cool and give it away free. But you'll get more valuable
stuff; users' feedback. You have to be patient, though. There are
so many open source projects now, and it isn't realistic that a
new project gets attention immediately. Keep improving it for
years. Any software requires years to reach a mature state anyway.
If the software is actually what people want, you'll start getting
feedback gradually. If not, you won't get any feedback after years.
Either way, you'll learn something. (It's tough that you find
you're doing something that people don't care after years, but that's
the risk you should take if you accomplish something anyway).
Also, keeping a project that long tells a lot about yourself and
your ability to the potential employers/partners. I got several
paying projects through my open-source projects.
Producing something constantly is another way. Set up a blog and
write up ideas as you get, for example. Appreciate any feedback,
positive or negative---remember your goal is to figure out what
people want, and any feedback is a valuable clue for that.
I hope these suggestions are specific enough.
Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t wrote:
> But I've reached the limit of what I can do with just my laptop and not
> any second machine to connect it to.
I think it doesn't really matter what machine something runs on. You
can run a web browser from localhost, run the database on the same host
as the application server, ...
>> Learn and do something that companies out there *want*.
>
> Do you have any specific suggestions?
Not really. But since "The people who write those job ads are idiots"
I'm not sure you're interested anyway.
(I share your complaints, but the choice is between doing what those
idiots write in their job ads, or not working for them.)
> I have software that could help train their new employees, but I've
> never found any company that needed or wanted any such facility.
Maybe it needs a different way to market it. Companies always like
numbers of how much it would save them over their existing schooling
systems, or how well it could teach their people new technologies, but
even then they might not even be interested in new technologies at all,
depending on how much money THAT would save them.
If companies aren't responsive, try universities. Maybe some marketing
student would be interested to work with you, or maybe you could apply
your teaching software at the university (you could volunteer to do some
program there for interested students)?
> I have ideas to develop which would make numerical calculations much
> more reliable than they are with ordinary floating-point, so somebody
> could write a program to calculate some set of values and actually
> trust the output it produces, but nobody is interested in that.
Like bignums? rationals?
> I have many old programs I could convert to the latest platform, but
> nobody has expressed any interest in any of them.
I guess we all have those lying around ;)
I mostly keep them as copy-n-paste resources, if I need a function or
two from them.
--
I believe in Karma. That means I can do bad things to people
all day long and I assume they deserve it.
Dogbert
From: Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t
Subject: Re: can anyone offer Lisp job?
Date:
Message-ID: <REM-2005apr19-002@Yahoo.Com>
> From: ·············@gmail.com" <············@gmail.com>
> When an american programmer gets unemployed and replaced by a guy
> from Hungary, is it because the hungarian guy is dumb and therefore
> cheap?
No, it's because the Hungarian guy is not bound by the Federal minimum
wage, so he can undercut the wage of any American guy. The Hungarian
guy probably doesn't have 22 years experience programming computers, as
the American guy does, but it's the difference in legal minimum wage,
not the skill difference, that causes American companies to outsource
for their software needs.
By the way, does anybody know what the typical hourly wage is for
writing computer software, for workers in India and Hungary, when
outsourced by American companies? I need to know so that I can petition
for a lowering of the legal minimum wage here so that I could legally
compete with them. For example, could I incorporate myself in India,
have all income go to that corporation, then I get dividends back from
my corporation, and there's no law requring dividends to exceed a
minimum wage?
Alternately, is there any way I could work legally in another country,
not subject to USA minimum wage law, while I'm still physically in the
USA? Sort of like an offshore shelter for employment, just like
companies have offshore shelters for all their financial stuff to avoid
having to pay corporate income tax?
> Or is it because the Hungarian guy is smarter, and it does not make
> sense to pay even the same money to the american programmer just
> because he is american?
It's definitely not that. I'm as smart as any Hungarian guy.
, but it's the difference in legal minimum wage,
> not the skill difference, that causes American companies to outsource
> for their software needs.
Don't even hope for that. I routinely get contractor's job for much
more than you were
going to work for. And I get my job at least partly because I work
better and more skilled.
> By the way, does anybody know what the typical hourly wage is for
> writing computer software, for workers in India and Hungary, when
> outsourced by American companies? I need to know so that I can
petition
> for a lowering of the legal minimum wage here so that I could legally
> compete with them.
You are welcome to compete. The hourly rate varies from $5 for third
year university students
to $25 for experienced coders and more. The money is paid for better
skills, not for lower rates.
With additional risks and expenses, the difference is not that high.
F> Alternately, is there any way I could work legally in another
country,
> not subject to USA minimum wage law, while I'm still physically in
the
> USA?
Is it prohibited by the US laws?
David Tolpin
From: Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t
Subject: Re: can anyone offer Lisp job?
Date:
Message-ID: <REM-2005apr24-010@Yahoo.Com>
> From: ·············@gmail.com" <············@gmail.com>
> I routinely get contractor's job for much more than you were going to
> work for.
I can believe that now you could go by referrals from your previous
clients, but how did you get your first few contracting jobs, when you
had no prior experience in successful contracting?
> And I get my job at least partly because I work better and more
> skilled.
You know next to nothing about my skills, so it's rather arrogant for
you to make such claims.
By the way, your English isn't quite up to par. Please re-read what you
wrote, that I quoted, just above, and see if perhaps you can see a
grammatical error (hint: missing word).
> > By the way, does anybody know what the typical hourly wage is for
> > writing computer software, for workers in India and Hungary, when
> > outsourced by American companies? I need to know so that I can petition
> > for a lowering of the legal minimum wage here so that I could legally
> > compete with them.
> You are welcome to compete. The hourly rate varies from $5 for third
> year university students to $25 for experienced coders and more.
That $25/hr rate is more than I ever got for regular employment as
Programmer Analyst II here in the USA after 20 years experience not
just coding but designing new algorithms and designing entire new
software applications *and* doing all the coding for them. So why would
any company outsource to India and pay $25/hr because USA programmers
are "too expensive"?? This particular USA programmer is not too
expensive at all!! Are you really sure that figure of $25/hr for
experienced programmers in India is correct? Or are you just spoofing
me to see if I'll bite?
> The money is paid for better skills, not for lower rates.
I have really good computer-programming skills. There's no reason for
any company to bypass me to go to India and expect to find better
skills there.
Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t wrote
>By the way, does anybody know what the typical hourly wage is for
>writing computer software, for workers in India and Hungary, when
>outsourced by American companies?
>
Worth knowing...
>I need to know so that I can petition
>for a lowering of the legal minimum wage here so that I could legally
>compete with them.
>
...but not for the reason you state. I hope you're not serious here.
If you are, then you need to seek psychiatric help. The effort
necessary to get a Lisp job is far, far, far less than the effort needed
to enact an unpopular political idea. Thus this sounds like you're
living in a delusional world where you avoid your employment problems.
> For example, could I incorporate myself in India,
>have all income go to that corporation, then I get dividends back from
>my corporation, and there's no law requring dividends to exceed a
>minimum wage?
>
>
*What* dividends? You aren't going to make any money!
>Alternately, is there any way I could work legally in another country,
>not subject to USA minimum wage law, while I'm still physically in the
>USA? Sort of like an offshore shelter for employment, just like
>companies have offshore shelters for all their financial stuff to avoid
>having to pay corporate income tax?
>
>
>
IIRC the loophole typically exploited is the L1 Visa for
"intra-corporate transfers." This allows a foreigner to come to US
shores and get paid the same peanuts he'd get paid back home.
Unscrupulous companies make a business of fronting these guys overseas.
There's been much political teeth gnashing about closing the loophole in
recent years, but I don't know that it has happened.
I believe you'd have to become a foreigner to take advantage of such a
thing. Also there is probably a time expiry on the L1 Visa, so in
becoming a foreigner, you're not going to be able to stay in the USA for
very long. It seems the only rational course of action if you're bound
and determined to lower your wages is for you to emmigrate to somewhere
like Hungary. Try to convince them that they want you as a citizen. I
don't know how eager the poor countries are to accept new citizens with
skills. Maybe very eager for all I know. In the USA I believe it takes
5 years to become a citizen. I mentioned before that you'd probably
have to be willing to move to solve your problems, to go to where the
job is. This is a variation on the theme, and hardly a lucrative variation.
>
>It's definitely not that. I'm as smart as any Hungarian guy.
>
>
You certainly aren't with regards to business. Are you at least smart
enough to realize what you don't know, and go seek out better answers to
make you a more effective businessman? Again, misc.business.consulting
for starters.
--
Cheers, www.indiegamedesign.com
Brandon Van Every Seattle, WA
20% of the world is real.
80% is gobbledygook we make up inside our own heads.
·······@Yahoo.Com (Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t) writes:
> Alternately, is there any way I could work legally in another country,
> not subject to USA minimum wage law, while I'm still physically in the
> USA? Sort of like an offshore shelter for employment, just like
Consultant Mark Watson, who also happens to be a Lisper, is a case of
"reverse outsourcing":
http://www.markwatson.com
Some time ago he told in his blog about a job he was
then--still?--doing for an Indian company. He was physically in the
USA, but I don't know about your other requirements.
Paolo
--
Why Lisp? http://lisp.tech.coop/RtL%20Highlight%20Film
Recommended Common Lisp libraries/tools (see also http://clrfi.alu.org):
- ASDF/ASDF-INSTALL: system building/installation
- CL-PPCRE: regular expressions
- UFFI: Foreign Function Interface
Paolo Amoroso wrote:
> ·······@Yahoo.Com (Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t) writes:
>
>
>>Alternately, is there any way I could work legally in another country,
>>not subject to USA minimum wage law, while I'm still physically in the
>>USA? Sort of like an offshore shelter for employment, just like
>
>
> Consultant Mark Watson, who also happens to be a Lisper, is a case of
> "reverse outsourcing":
>
> http://www.markwatson.com
>
> Some time ago he told in his blog about a job he was
> then--still?--doing for an Indian company. He was physically in the
> USA, but I don't know about your other requirements.
(Was it in WIRED?) I read that Americans export much more work
than they import/offshore work (factor 2, several billions?). So
if there would be laws against working for or other countries +
letting them work for you, the US would lose big time.
--
No man is good enough to govern another man without that other's
consent. -- Abraham Lincoln
Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t wrote:
> By the way, does anybody know what the typical hourly wage is for
> writing computer software, for workers in India and Hungary, when
> outsourced by American companies? I need to know so that I can petition
> for a lowering of the legal minimum wage here so that I could legally
> compete with them. For example, could I incorporate myself in India,
> have all income go to that corporation, then I get dividends back from
> my corporation, and there's no law requring dividends to exceed a
> minimum wage?
I think you are on the wrong track. Have you considered that there is
quite a big difference between living expenses in the US and
India/Hungary (well, I am a native of neither, but anyways).
I don't know what your living expenses are in the US, but here you can
barely live for say 1200$ a month after taxes as a single person (I
figure it is not that different in the US). So even if I was tax free
(which I am not in this heavily taxed country), I would still have to
make 60 hours a week to barely make it.
In comparison over half a billion chinese (and I figure that goes for
Indians as well) live for less than 1$ a day (granted that are farmers
with no electricity and so on and not highly skilled professionals).
By the way, I go for around 100$ an hour (as an indepedant consultant,
not employee), so I think you 5$ an hour sound like you have no
confindence in your own skills.
I would not take a paid job for less that say 40-45.000 dollars/year
before taxes (as I am danish there is not such things as
medical/dental/whatever benefits paied by an employer - the only
exception is pension payment).
Svenne Krap <············@krap.dk> wrote:
+---------------
| I don't know what your living expenses are in the US, but here you can
| barely live for say 1200$ a month after taxes as a single person (I
| figure it is not that different in the US).
+---------------
*HAH!* We wish. $1200/month won't even pay my *rent*!!
[And I'm getting a good deal, due to long tenancy...]
+---------------
| By the way, I go for around 100$ an hour (as an indepedant consultant,
| not employee)...
+---------------
A highly-experienced person can certainly still get that in
the SF Bay area for short-term technical gigs, though you'll
have to do some serious negotiation to have that hold up for
longer-term work.
+---------------
| I would not take a paid job for less that say 40-45.000 dollars/year
| before taxes (as I am danish there is not such things as
| medical/dental/whatever benefits paied by an employer - the only
| exception is pension payment).
+---------------
Here fairly-hefty medical/dental/etc. benefits are considered standard
for full-time employees, though of course independent consultants don't
get any of that. The typical benefits package around here is ~30% of
base salary, so if you think you're worth a $45K/yr salary you shouldn't
price yourself at less than $31/hr (minimum).
-Rob
-----
Rob Warnock <····@rpw3.org>
627 26th Avenue <URL:http://rpw3.org/>
San Mateo, CA 94403 (650)572-2607
From: Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t
Subject: Re: can anyone offer Lisp job?
Date:
Message-ID: <REM-2005apr24-011@Yahoo.Com>
> From: Svenne Krap <············@krap.dk>
> I go for around 100$ an hour (as an indepedant consultant,
> not employee), so I think you 5$ an hour sound like you have no
> confindence in your own skills.
I have great confidence in my skills, as proven by the many
successful applications and utilties/tools I've wrotten.
I don't have any confidence in companies being willing to pay me any
sort of decent wage. Generally I don't say how much money I need, let
the employer offer something and then I accept, but they keep saying
that I'm probably too expensive so they'd rather hire somebody from
India who would be cheaper to hire, so then I have to try to under-bid
the Indian.
So let's go back to square one: I have 22 years experience programming
computers, 15 of which were using Lisp. If you had the money to hire
me, how much per hour would you offer me?
> I would not take a paid job for less that say 40-45.000 dollars/year
> before taxes ...
Assuming 40 hrs/week, converting to $/hr, that's about $19-21/hr, which
is about the same as or slightly more than I used to get when I had a
regular job. Given the current recession, I think I would be a fool to
refuse anything slightly lower than that. Better to take a lower paying
job to "get my foot in the door", then prove myself to the new employer
and then ask for a raise.
·······@Yahoo.Com (Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t) writes:
>> From: Svenne Krap <············@krap.dk>
>> I go for around 100$ an hour (as an indepedant consultant,
>> not employee), so I think you 5$ an hour sound like you have no
>> confindence in your own skills.
>
> I have great confidence in my skills, as proven by the many
> successful applications and utilties/tools I've wrotten.
Interesting you just had a go at someone in this newsgroup for their
english not being "up to par." and then you've 'wrotten' the above!
Everyone knows that the Internet is filled with bad grammar and
spelling - its the nature of the beast - most don't proof read before
posting and tend to post following a style more akin to a stream of
consciousness rather than the well written text found in books etc.
I figured I'd check out your website - as someone looking for
employment, I assumed you would have put some effort into it to show
off your skills and maybe convince a prospective employer of your
potential benefit to them. My conclusion is that your website is doing
more harm than good - I'd seriously advise not telling anyone about it
and hope it will eventually be purged from all caches on the net.
> I don't have any confidence in companies being willing to pay me any
> sort of decent wage. Generally I don't say how much money I need, let
> the employer offer something and then I accept, but they keep saying
> that I'm probably too expensive so they'd rather hire somebody from
> India who would be cheaper to hire, so then I have to try to under-bid
> the Indian.
Doesn't that tell you something - obviously, the employer cannot see
any benefit to employing you over someone else who is cheaper - the
issue of them being indian is irrelevant and as pointed out by others
in this thread, skilled trained programmers in India do quite well -
its not like the manufacturing sweat shops using unskilled labour -
programming is a skilled job which requires education, training and
experience, all of which comes at a cost. While a programmer in India
may not earn quite as much as a programmer in the US, they still earn
more than the US minimum wage equivelent. Stop blaming your fialure to
get work on cheap labour from overseas - its rubbish.
> So let's go back to square one: I have 22 years experience programming
> computers, 15 of which were using Lisp. If you had the money to hire
> me, how much per hour would you offer me?
The first thing I would want is some evidence of this
experience. I could find nothing on your website to support this
claim. The 'demos' were a joke - you'd be better off copying a few
exercises from some text books than the rubbish on your website. I've
seen high school kids with only a few weeks of learning do more
impressive work.
Where is your employment history? Referees? Training? Education? If
your making claims about years of experience, then you have to support
them with some evidence. What about a description of the "major"
projects you have worked on - not trivial "Hello World" scripts and
basic/pointless CGI scripts.
If you have 22 years programming experience, then you should be able
to write about some of the more interesting and challenging projects
you worked on and some of the innovative solutions you found or
perhaps some of the more interesting/challenging platforms you must
have worked on in the early 80's.
I would also point out that its not uncommon for prospective employers
to google for info on applicants to see if they have a net history, so
be aware that anything you put in these newsgroups could be seen by
them. I'm often required to fill positions where I'm currently
working. I'm responsible for the management of nearly 30 staff
comprised of programmers, DBAs, system administrators and analysts and
I'll often do a search to see if I can find anything out about
prospective employees and I'd have to say that if I saw your website,
I'd assume you were a high school kid with no commercial programming
experience and no formal training. I'd probably classify you as an
interested amateur who could possibly be worth investing in if they
had a good attitude and were able to show a real aptitude for the sort
of work we had on offer. However, above all, I get the impression you
are someone who blames their situation on others or factors outside
your control. Even your website appears to be full of excuses as to
why certain things are not there or don't work correctly - not the
sort of thing which leaves a positive impression.
You will probably exclaim that I don't know you and how dare I make
such assumptions etc. To this I would simply point out its a buyers
market and your the seller - if I've got the wrong impression of your
abilities and potential, whose fault it that and who is responsible
for addressing it? Others have argued they don't think its the
outsourcing of jobs to India which has prevented you from getting a
job and I would agree with them. What is preventing you from getting a
job is you and nothing to do with outsourcing or hourly rate. From an
employers perspective -
* You have a poor employment record - no work for 13 (?)
years? Why not (unreliable/in prison/mental hospital/bad
attitude/etc)?
* If I/we invested in you, would you stay around long enough
to warrant the investment?
* Do you really have the skills you claim?
* Can you apply your skills/knowledge in a way which will be
beneficial to us?
* Will you do what is required or will you argue all the
time?
* Do you need close management or can you work
independently?
Finally, blaming your employment woes on cheap labour from overseas is
not doing you any favors. Apart from raising questions concerning
racism etc, it gives the impression you are someone who blames
everyone else for their problems and does not take any responsability
for their own situation. Often outsourcing is NOT about cheaper wages
and in fact, on a wage basis, outsourcing to India is not necessarily
cheaper. More often than not, outsourcing programming is about cheaper
'management" and flexibility in business options. Many countries in
the "first world" have laws and various peices of legislation designed
to protect the rights of eomployees. While I think this is very
important to reduce levels of exploitation, from a business management
perspective, it makes things more inflexible.
As an example, I was doing some work for a large airline. They wanted
to change the way their IT services was structured. However, because
of various industrial legislation in the country the IT resources and
data centre were located in, it was going to be extremely difficult
for them to restructure - for one thing, they had 12 different unions
to deal with and getting agreement from all 12 was going to be nearly
impossible.
The solution was to sell their data centre and outsouce all their IT
infrastructure. They are now creating a new IT infrastructure within
the airline and don't have to deal with any unions at all as they
currently don't employ any IT people. The IT staff were outsourced to
India and it WAS NOT CHEAPER from a staffing perspective. However,
from the management perspective and a flexibility perspecitve, it was
cheaper for the airline. In approximately 18 months, the airline will
be employing new staff for their newly structured IT division and will
cancel their outsourcing contracts.
Tim
--
Tim Cross
The e-mail address on this message is FALSE (obviously!). My real e-mail is
to a company in Australia called rapttech and my login is tcross - if you
really need to send mail, you should be able to work it out!
Tim X wrote:
> ·······@Yahoo.Com (Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t) writes:
>
>
>>>From: Svenne Krap <············@krap.dk>
>>>I go for around 100$ an hour (as an indepedant consultant,
>>>not employee), so I think you 5$ an hour sound like you have no
>>>confindence in your own skills.
>>
>>I have great confidence in my skills, as proven by the many
>>successful applications and utilties/tools I've wrotten.
>
>
> Interesting you just had a go at someone in this newsgroup for their
> english not being "up to par." and then you've 'wrotten' the above!
> Everyone knows that the Internet is filled with bad grammar and
> spelling - its the nature of the beast - most don't proof read before
> posting and tend to post following a style more akin to a stream of
> consciousness rather than the well written text found in books etc.
http://www.mozilla.org/products/thunderbird/
spellchecks everything you write automatically. Maybe the current
stable build doesn't, but the nightly build does, and so will
version 1.1 I suppose. Yes, it's slooow, but it's not bad.
Other news or mail clients might do the same. Anyway, bad
orthography never is an excuse (even though I can easily tolerate
a couple of typos here and there).
--
No man is good enough to govern another man without that other's
consent. -- Abraham Lincoln
Tim X <····@spamto.devnul.com> writes:
> The solution was to sell their data centre and outsouce all their IT
> infrastructure. They are now creating a new IT infrastructure within
> the airline and don't have to deal with any unions at all as they
> currently don't employ any IT people
Intriguing.
I realise that you cannot reveal the airline's name due to confidentiality
issues, but I would be curious about which country this airline is located in.
From: Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t
Subject: Re: can anyone offer Lisp job?
Date:
Message-ID: <REM-2005jun27-006@Yahoo.Com>
> From: Tim X <····@spamto.devnul.com>
> > I have great confidence in my skills, as proven by the many
> > successful applications and utilties/tools I've wrotten.
> Interesting you just had a go at someone in this newsgroup for their
> english not being "up to par." and then you've 'wrotten' the above!
That was a simple keyboard typo. We all do that. Thanks for noting it.
If it were a Web page that I had control over, I'd edit it to fix the
typo. But there's no way to edit articles posted to newsgroups, so it's
stuck there forever, but your note about it alerts any reader who is
following the thread.
> Everyone knows that the Internet is filled with bad grammar and
> spelling - its the nature of the beast - most don't proof read before
> posting and tend to post following a style more akin to a stream of
> consciousness rather than the well written text found in books etc.
I agree, and I write mostly in stream of consciousness myself, often
running from one throught to another as I think of new ideas in the
midst of typing what I had already planned to say. I generally notice
when I make a mistake, and usually take a glance back from time to time
to see if there are any typos I missed, but occasionally with just me
to proofread my own writing I let a typo slip through. (And occasionally
there's a word I really am misspelling. For example, several years ago
when I started using the words "mitosis" and "meiosis" on a regular
basis, I didn't know how to spell the latter, and sometimes got it
rearranged, and other times had to look it up. But finally I got the
correct spelling memorized, thanks to a heuristic based on comparison
with the former. A couple other words I still have trouble spelling,
although at the moment I can't remember what they are.)
What bothers me is when people show blatant disregard for correct
spelling, or when they show they have no idea which spelling to use
among common word groups such as to/too/two as/is when/where
their/there/they're here/hear etc. I wrote a computer program to teach
correct spelling of the most common words (the and of but to ...) and
used it to teach my children how to spell those words correctly, i.e.
appropriately in context, for sample sentences without the actual
program see:
http://shell.rawbw.com/~rem/cgi-bin/topscript.cgi
Select the radio button for "Most common words" then click the submit
button which is titled "Start the demo of SegMat per above selections".
Try deliberately getting some of the words wrong so it'll show you
alternate sentences with same missing word.
For the actual effective-teaching program you need an individual
account so that the program can keep track of your progress.
After we arrange an account for you, log in here:
http://shell.rawbw.com/~rem/cgi-bin/LogForm.cgi
http://shell.rawbw.com/~rem/cgi-bin/LogForm.cgi?f=WAP
the latter if you're on a cellphone or other tiny-screen device.
Meanwhile, if you promise that only one of ypu will use it at a time,
you can try the guest acocunt (username=guest1 password=free) in the
login form.
If two of you try to use it at about the same time, your state changes
will interleave causing horrible confusion and possibly crashing the
program due to invalid program state.
If two of you use it at very different times, each of you will pick up
where the other left off, causing mild confusion but at least you'll
get an idea of how the program works and be eager to get your own
account if you have trouble spelling any of those nine hundred
most-common words.
Anyway, with technology such as mine available, there's really no
excuse not to be able to choose the appropriate word and spell it
correctly, among the most common English words, even if your native
language isn't English and you need to spend a few days with my program
brushing up on your spelling before posting (after all when you first
get on the net you're supposed to read for a few weeks before posting
the first time, which gives plenty of time to use my program, right?).
> your website is doing more harm than good
I don't really have a WebSite per se, more like a lot of different
groupings of WebPages in different places. Perhaps you should comment
with specific suggestions about any particular WebPage that bothers
you. For example, did you try that quick run-through of the hundred
most common words? If so, what do you think of the interaction for when
you get a word incorrect and it helps you toward the correct spelling
until it's achieved?
> the employer cannot see any benefit to employing you over someone
> else who is cheaper
Since I'm willing to work at the minimum legal wage to get started, and
in fact I'm willing to do some work totally without pay in return for
evaluation of my work, how exactly is the employer going to do what you
suggested there without violating the law or actually taking money from
an employee for the priviledge of working for free?
> programming is a skilled job which requires education ...
Nonsense. I can teach almost anyone how to program. Last Monday I
started lessons on two severely disabled people at a drop-in-center for
disabled people, and made progress with each.
> While a programmer in India may not earn quite as much as a
> programmer in the US, they still earn more than the US minimum wage
> equivelent.
Then it makes no business sense for companies to hire outside the USA,
given that I'm available right here in California.
> > So let's go back to square one: I have 22 years experience programming
> > computers, 15 of which were using Lisp. If you had the money to hire
> > me, how much per hour would you offer me?
> The first thing I would want is some evidence of this experience.
What kind of evidence do you require? Since all work in the past has
already happened, there's no way I can take you back in time to sit
next to me as I was working in the past to directly observe me working
back then. Besides, the important thing is what I can do now, not how
long I worked in the past to develop such skills, or do you disagree??
So other than show you software I've developed during the past several
years, or take a "trial work" test whereby you assign me some
programming task that takes only a day to accomplish (no, I'm not
willing to spend a full year working without pay on some huge project
to your benefit), what else would constitute evidence of my recent
capabilies?
> Where is your employment history?
Are you blind or something?
> What about a description of the "major" projects you have worked on
Are you blind or something?
> If you have 22 years programming experience, then you should be able
> to write about some of the more interesting and challenging projects
> you worked on and some of the innovative solutions you found ...
I already did that. Apparently you didn't bother to read what I wrote.
Do any of these interest you:
- Computer assisted instruction (math, reading, spelling).
- Analysis of incoming spam and automatic firing of instant complaints
to the complaint desk of offending ISP.
- Synthetic generation of proved large primes.
- Number recognizer by finding approximate linear relationships.
- Computerized typography (pre-TeX).
- Magnetic resonance relaxation models for organic molecules.
- Data compression.
- Perfect play with first move in game of Go on small boards via
combined heuristics and mistake-correction.
- Linked frames of information i.e. computerized "programmed text"
(long before HyperCard or HTML, about the same time as EMACS-INFO).
- Maintenance of large database of directories of diskettes and
compilation of inverted index and automatic detection of
too-many-versions of any given file and aid in purging extra old
copies.
I suppose you're too blind to have seen any mention of those in my
various detailed resumes? Or you consider them all trivlal?
> I would also point out that its not uncommon for prospective
> employers to google for info on applicants to see if they have a net
> history, so be aware that anything you put in these newsgroups could
> be seen by them.
And if some prospective employer happened to notice that I was active
in brainstorming about how life might have gotten started 3.8 or more
billion years ago (abiogenesis) or precise definition of "living thing"
suitable for ET searches, or my helping people to clarify their math
and computer understanding and whacking down the trolls who post utter
garbage by pointing exactly where their language makes no sense
whatsoever, or by fighting spam for more than ten years, or my interest
in rec.games.go (which I don't spend much time at) including better
formalizations of the rules of the game to support correct computer
refereeing of games, or my advocacy of space/Lunar exploration and
development of resources and brainstorming ideas about how to
accomplish such, or my volunteeer activities teaching reading and
spelling to non-English-speaking people, and teaching computer
programming to disabled people, how would such information affect my
prospects for employment, in your opinion?
> You have a poor employment record - no *PAID* work for 13 (?) years?
> Why not?
Ask the people who didn't hire me all these years.
I have no idea why they didn't hire me.
The excuse I got from 1991 to 1994, and again from 2001 to now, was
that there's a recession on so nobody's hiring.
The excuse I got from 1994 onward was that I've been unemployed more
than two years so I'll never be able to get another job until the day I
die because nobody wants anybody who has been unemployed more than two
years.
As you see, in recent years I've gotten both excuses.
But they are just excuses, not valid reasons.
> If I/we invested in you, would you stay around long enough to warrant
> the investment?
Of course I would. I'm not a job-hopper. At my previous long-term job I
stayed on when nearly everyone else had quit to go find more lucrative
jobs. I stayed to the very end when our institute (IMSSS) lost all
available funding and couldn't start a follow-on to the project we were
just completing. I got two weeks notice from learning of new contract
not available to end of contract we'd been in until then.
If I had been a job-hopper, maybe I would have skipped out in 1989 or
1990 and have a new job in 1991 instead of being hit by the recession.
> Do you really have the skills you claim?
Of course I do! Are you calling me a liar? On what basis?
What specific skills do I claim which you dispute?
> Can you apply your skills/knowledge in a way which will be beneficial
> to us?
That depends on what your needs are. Tell me your needs and I might be
able to answer. ("your" means the hypothetical employer you're emulating)
> Will you do what is required or will you argue all the time?
I will not eagerly violate criminal law just to keep the job.
(I turned down one job like that long ago.)
But within the limits of the law and common decency etc., I do whatever
my boss wants and expresses to me.
> Do you need close management or can you work independently?
I generally work independently, but whenever I finish building a major
tool I need somebody to try it and see if it does what they expected it
to do, so that I know whether to incorporate that tool into higher
levels that I build next or whether that tool needs modification before
I try to use it for anything else.
> More often than not, outsourcing programming is about cheaper
> 'management" and flexibility in business options.
I don't understand how it'd be easier to manage long-distance between
USA and India than to manage locally. Please explain your rationale for
your statement above. I've never joined a union, and I'm not aware of
any that exist for the kind of work I do, so your remarks about unions
interfering with business practice is moot.
·······@Yahoo.Com (Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t) writes:
> > From: ·············@gmail.com" <············@gmail.com>
> > When an american programmer gets unemployed and replaced by a guy
> > from Hungary, is it because the hungarian guy is dumb and therefore
> > cheap?
>
> No, it's because the Hungarian guy is not bound by the Federal minimum
> wage, so he can undercut the wage of any American guy. The Hungarian
I doubt that you'll find many Hungarian programmers who are
willing to work for less then $5 (after tax)/hour.
> guy probably doesn't have 22 years experience programming computers, as
What makes you think so?
[...]
> It's definitely not that. I'm as smart as any Hungarian guy.
You can certainly make as bold statements as any Hungarian guy.
Andras
On Tue, 19 Apr 2005 08:20:31 -0700, ·······@Yahoo.Com (Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t) wrote:
> I'm as smart as any Hungarian guy.
As smart as, say, Paul Erd�s? Or John von Neumann?
--
Lisp is not dead, it just smells funny.
Real email: (replace (subseq ·········@agharta.de" 5) "edi")
On Tue, 19 Apr 2005 23:21:02 +0200, Edi Weitz wrote:
> On Tue, 19 Apr 2005 08:20:31 -0700, ·······@Yahoo.Com (Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t) wrote:
>
>> I'm as smart as any Hungarian guy.
>
> As smart as, say, Paul Erd�s? Or John von Neumann?
Charles Simonyi has done ok for himself as well.
Hungarian hackers have been in demand for a long time.
"Robert Swindells" <···@fdy2.demon.co.uk> writes:
> Charles Simonyi has done ok for himself as well.
I like the way he inflicted that cruel notation on Microsoft
programmers and the folks who actually /like/ it. Very crafty.
--
An ideal world is left as an excercise to the reader.
--- Paul Graham, On Lisp 8.1
No excuses. No apologies. Just do it.
--- Erik Naggum
David Steuber <·····@david-steuber.com> writes:
>> Charles Simonyi has done ok for himself as well.
>
> I like the way he inflicted that cruel notation on Microsoft
> programmers and the folks who actually /like/ it. Very crafty.
After which he cleverly left to pursue aspect oriented programming.
Hungarian notation probably saved us from global control by Microsoft.
Edi Weitz <········@agharta.de> writes:
> On Tue, 19 Apr 2005 08:20:31 -0700, ·······@Yahoo.Com (Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t) wrote:
>
>> I'm as smart as any Hungarian guy.
>
> As smart as, say, Paul Erdös? Or John von Neumann?
>
With the sort of statement he made, I doubt if he even knows who Erdos
is and if he does, lets find out what his erdos number is!
Tim
--
Tim Cross
The e-mail address on this message is FALSE (obviously!). My real e-mail is
to a company in Australia called rapttech and my login is tcross - if you
really need to send mail, you should be able to work it out!
Tim X wrote:
> Edi Weitz <········@agharta.de> writes:
>
> > On Tue, 19 Apr 2005 08:20:31 -0700, ·······@Yahoo.Com (Robert Maas,
see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t) wrote:
> >
> >> I'm as smart as any Hungarian guy.
> >
> > As smart as, say, Paul Erdös? Or John von Neumann?
>
> With the sort of statement he made, I doubt if he even knows who
Erdos
> is and if he does, lets find out what his erdos number is!
In prior posts Robert Maas has stated that he placed highly (top 20) on
the Putnam exam while in college.
I've been away from this newsgroup for six months but at first glance
it seems to have taken a turn for the worse. Some flip comments (like
Edi's) are to be expected, of course, but what's with the collection of
hangers-on sniffing the water for blood?
From: Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t
Subject: Re: can anyone offer Lisp job?
Date:
Message-ID: <REM-2005apr25-002@Yahoo.Com>
> From: "Sashank Varma" <············@yahoo.com>
> In prior posts Robert Maas has stated that he placed highly (top 20)
> on the Putnam exam while in college.
Top 5 actually. Unfortunately that contest gives a false sense of
ability to succeed in mathematics. The test requires ability to solve
problems never seen before, but doesn't require ability to memorize
hundreds of definitions and theorems and recall them as needed. It's
that latter skill-need which hit me in graduate school, killing my
previously "promising" math career.
Fortunately both CL and Java have nicely organized documentation for
their APIs, making memorization of it-all unnecessary, allowing me to
be very productive at developing software. Unfortunately I don't know
how to find anybody with money who appreciates my programming ability.
From: Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t
Subject: Re: can anyone offer Lisp job?
Date:
Message-ID: <REM-2005apr24-012@Yahoo.Com>
> From: Edi Weitz <········@agharta.de>
> > I'm as smart as any Hungarian guy.
> As smart as, say, Paul Erdvs? Or John von Neumann?
Paul Erdvs died on September 20, 1996.
John von Neumann died in 1957
Either of their corposes at present have an intelligence of zero.
Also my use of "guy" refers to people currently living in Hungary and
earning money programming computers, which I doubt either of those
famous mathematicians did much of even when they were alive.
The context was my competition for software work, in Hungary now.
Those two famous mathematicians are not relevant to this context.
(By the way, Paul's family name doesn't show correctly in ASCII. For
media such as UseNet newsgroups where ASCII is the standard
representation of text, I'd like to represent foreign characters by
some explicit notation, such as {e'} for the French e-acute, but that's
not worth discussing here.)
·······@Yahoo.Com (Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t) writes:
> John von Neumann died in 1957
> Either of their corposes at present have an intelligence of zero.
> Also my use of "guy" refers to people currently living in Hungary and
> earning money programming computers, which I doubt either of those
> famous mathematicians did much of even when they were alive.
Among many other depressingly brilliant accomplishment, John von Neumann
invented the merge-sort algorithm ( so Knuth claims)
He also did work on algorithms for numerical hydrodynamics.
So he must have done a reasonable amount of programming.
···············@yahoo.com wrote:
> For whether von Neumann programmed or not, please see
>
> http://www.siam.org/siamnews/03-05/aspray.htm
some more interesting articles can be found at Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Von_Neumann
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Von_Neumann_architecture
And not widely known is his work in cellular automaton theory. I think the
"von Neumann bottleneck" could be addressed with a parallel computing
cellular automaton, where not only data and program is the same, like in
all today computers (this is it what makes compiler possible) and in Lisp,
but where every data cell is an active computing cell, like von Neumann
described with his Universal Constructor:
http://people.cornell.edu/pages/up22/jvn.html
More information on Cellular Automaton:
http://cell-auto.com/links/index.php
And my experiments (currently all in Java, Python and Assembler, but when I
have some time, perhaps I'll translate it to Lisp):
http://www.frank-buss.de/automaton/
--
Frank Bu�, ··@frank-buss.de
http://www.frank-buss.de, http://www.it4-systems.de
From: vermicule
Subject: Re: Von Neumanns less well known accomplishments.
Date:
Message-ID: <87wtqn5guv.fsf@kafka.homenet>
···············@yahoo.com writes:
> http://www.siam.org/siamnews/03-05/aspray.htm
Thank you for a link to a great article on Von Neumann.
It also had intresting bits about the history of the Institute for Advanced Studies.
·······@Yahoo.Com (Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t) writes:
> By the way, does anybody know what the typical hourly wage is for
> writing computer software, for workers in India and Hungary, when
> outsourced by American companies? I need to know so that I can petition
> for a lowering of the legal minimum wage here so that I could legally
> compete with them. For example, could I incorporate myself in India,
> have all income go to that corporation, then I get dividends back from
> my corporation, and there's no law requring dividends to exceed a
> minimum wage?
Why do you want to work by the hour?
Be free-lance and work with fixed price, so you can bid any price you want.
--
__Pascal Bourguignon__ http://www.informatimago.com/
Until real software engineering is developed, the next best practice
is to develop with a dynamic system that has extreme late binding in
all aspects. The first system to really do this in an important way
is Lisp. -- Alan Kay
>> For example, could I incorporate myself in India,
> Why do you want to work by the hour?
> Be free-lance and work with fixed price, so you can bid any price you want.
Or even better, bid low and outsource the contract you get via your
Indian incorporated company to Indian programmers.
You can have 10 projects going on simultaneously and the margin you make
will give you a far greater income than if you worked on your own.
Plus, if the Indians get too expensive, you can move your jobs to
Hungary or the Ukraine.
israel wrote:
> >> For example, could I incorporate myself in India,
>
>
> > Why do you want to work by the hour?
> > Be free-lance and work with fixed price, so you can bid any price
you want.
>
> Or even better, bid low and outsource the contract you get via your
> Indian incorporated company to Indian programmers.
>
> You can have 10 projects going on simultaneously and the margin you
make
> will give you a far greater income than if you worked on your own.
>
> Plus, if the Indians get too expensive, you can move your jobs to
> Hungary or the Ukraine.
If your business is finished and goes down the drain what will you
outsource to Hungary and Ukraine?? The only thing left will be your
poor self, which you can outsource to the highest bidder.
indiaBPOking.
israel wrote:
>>> For example, could I incorporate myself in India,
>
>
>
>>Why do you want to work by the hour?
>>Be free-lance and work with fixed price, so you can bid any price you want.
>
>
> Or even better, bid low and outsource the contract you get via your
> Indian incorporated company to Indian programmers.
>
> You can have 10 projects going on simultaneously and the margin you make
> will give you a far greater income than if you worked on your own.
>
> Plus, if the Indians get too expensive, you can move your jobs to
> Hungary or the Ukraine.
Need a good Lawyer? We got lot's and cheap to. Everybody is going into law.
Christopher C. Stacy wrote:
> I haven't thought about why it is that te USA has enjoyed such
> a lead in the software market. I assume it mostly has to do
> with our education system, and the general leg-up from our
> wealth compared to the less developed nations like India.
> Japan tried and failed in the 1980s, perhaps due to cultural
> differences. Now India is becoming serious competition.
One barrier in the past was the cost of hardware. It didn't
make much sense to try to save on labor costs if it meant
your (say) million dollar systems weren't being used effectively.
Nowadays the hardware is dirt cheap, of course.
There's also a lot to be said for putting developers close
to customers. Cheaper international telecom helps there,
but it's not yet a panacea. This argument suggests that
the lead in software development is due to the presence
of customers here rather than there. A low wage economy
has less incentive to automate, and so would have fewer
customers.
Paul
>>>>> "CCS" == Christopher C Stacy <······@news.dtpq.com> writes:
[...]
CCS> I haven't thought about why it is that te USA has enjoyed
CCS> such a lead in the software market. I assume it mostly has
CCS> to do with our education system, and the general leg-up from
CCS> our wealth compared to the less developed nations like India.
[...]
I am no big fan of Tom Friedman but there's some truth to what he says:
http://www.indianembassy.org/US_Media/2004/mar/The%20Secret%20of%20Our%20Sauce.htm
I quote:
[on hi-tech companies in India]
"They thrive by defying their political-economic environment, not by
emerging from it."
In my limited experience of working both in the US and Turkey (between
the US and India as far as standard of living goes) I can confirm
this.
cheers,
BM
Bulent Murtezaoglu wrote:
> >>>>> "CCS" == Christopher C Stacy <······@news.dtpq.com> writes:
> [...]
> CCS> I haven't thought about why it is that te USA has enjoyed
> CCS> such a lead in the software market. I assume it mostly has
> CCS> to do with our education system, and the general leg-up from
> CCS> our wealth compared to the less developed nations like
> CCS> India.
> [...]
>
> I am no big fan of Tom Friedman but there's some truth to what he
> says:
>
>
http://www.indianembassy.org/US_Media/2004/mar/The%20Secret%20of%20Our%20Sauce.htm
NYT points out how the US gov't had been feeding America's tech
industry. Through DARPA...
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/02/technology/02darpa.html?hp&ex=1112504400&en=8232d070f1a41760&ei=5094&partner=homepage
(In particular, their "Multimedia" sidebar, which has a couple cute
graphs showing a couple examples of this welfare.)
Incidentally, I agree that Tom Friedman is a suspicious guy, and am
reminded of Paul Graham's article...
http://paulgraham.com/submarine.html
Tayssir John Gabbour wrote:
>NYT points out how the US gov't had been feeding America's tech
>industry. Through DARPA...
>http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/02/technology/02darpa.html?hp&ex=1112504400&en=8232d070f1a41760&ei=5094&partner=homepage
>
>(In particular, their "Multimedia" sidebar, which has a couple cute
>graphs showing a couple examples of this welfare.)
>
>
"Welfare?" That's hysterical. Every industrialized nation in the world
invests in R&D, so that they can maintain economic and military
advantages over other countries. Maybe you'd prefer that everywhere was
some Third World shithole?
--
Cheers, www.indiegamedesign.com
Brandon Van Every Seattle, WA
(Currently investigating a French-funded research compiler.)
Brandon J. Van Every wrote:
> Tayssir John Gabbour wrote:
>
> >NYT points out how the US gov't had been feeding America's tech
> >industry. Through DARPA...
>
>http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/02/technology/02darpa.html?hp&ex=1112504400&en=8232d070f1a41760&ei=5094&partner=homepage
> >
> >(In particular, their "Multimedia" sidebar, which has a couple cute
> >graphs showing a couple examples of this welfare.)
> >
> "Welfare?" That's hysterical. Every industrialized nation in the
> world invests in R&D, so that they can maintain economic and
> military advantages over other countries. Maybe you'd prefer that
> everywhere was some Third World shithole?
What's hysterical is that you think the general welfare is a bad thing.
Polls show that many Americans favor "aid to the poor." But once you
phrase it as "welfare", it conjures images of arrogant black mothers
with 20 children, and they're far more against it.
If I were as mean-spirited as you, I would point out it's even more
hysterical that you're an embarrassingly unconvincing fellow lecturing
others on how to be convincing. (If mistakes are the best teacher, you
must be the great guru of PR.) On newsgroups about tools you don't have
the slightest notion how to use.
But I'm not as mean-spirited as you, and so I don't say that. (And I
have my own insanities which people could criticize.) In another
thread, I see someone's tired of offtopic postings, so I'll leave you
with final words.
Tayssir John Gabbour wrote:
>Brandon J. Van Every wrote:
>
>
>>Tayssir John Gabbour wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>NYT points out how the US gov't had been feeding America's tech
>>>industry. Through DARPA...
>>>
>>>
>>http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/02/technology/02darpa.html?hp&ex=1112504400&en=8232d070f1a41760&ei=5094&partner=homepage
>>
>>
>>>(In particular, their "Multimedia" sidebar, which has a couple cute
>>>graphs showing a couple examples of this welfare.)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>"Welfare?" That's hysterical. Every industrialized nation in the
>>world invests in R&D, so that they can maintain economic and
>>military advantages over other countries. Maybe you'd prefer that
>>everywhere was some Third World shithole?
>>
>>
>
>What's hysterical is that you think the general welfare is a bad thing.
>Polls show that many Americans favor "aid to the poor." But once you
>phrase it as "welfare", it conjures images of arrogant black mothers
>with 20 children, and they're far more against it.
>
>
>
You're completely ducking the point. And for the most part I do take a
dim view of "corporate welfare" in addition to the
spew-out-babies-to-get-free-money kind. I consider R&D to be a
legitimate societal need. Many kinds of R&D wouldn't get done if the
government didn't fund them, and we'd all be the poorer for it. R&D is
inherently exploratory and prone to risk. Not every project is going to
be of direct benefit to society. It is the aggregate act of ongoing
research which is of benefit, as something always hits. You can't leave
fundamental research solely to the beancounters in private corporations,
because they're too timid to take that level of risk.
>But I'm not as mean-spirited as you, and so I don't say that.
>
Sure you didn't.
--
Cheers, www.indiegamedesign.com
Brandon Van Every Seattle, WA
Taking risk where others will not.
>>>>> "TJG" == Tayssir John Gabbour <···········@yahoo.com> writes:
[...]
TJG> What's hysterical is that you think the general welfare is a
TJG> bad thing. [...]
I suspect you didn't do this on purpose, and I realize I am on thin
ice as a non-native speaker, but might I point out that "general
welfare" is only percieved as synonymous with "wealth transfer through
government coercion" because of an Orwellian corruption of language.
Who, afterall, can be against "general welfare"? (and, say, support
general ill-being!?). I think we are losing our ability to talk and
reason about these things because the very tools we'd use to communicate
are getting destroyed by propaganda.
cheers,
BB
Bulent Murtezaoglu wrote:
> >>>>> "TJG" == Tayssir John Gabbour <···········@yahoo.com> writes:
> [...]
> TJG> What's hysterical is that you think the general welfare is a
> TJG> bad thing. [...]
>
> I suspect you didn't do this on purpose, and I realize I am on thin
> ice as a non-native speaker, but might I point out that "general
> welfare" is only percieved as synonymous with "wealth transfer
> through government coercion" because of an Orwellian corruption of
> language. Who, afterall, can be against "general welfare"? (and,
> say, support general ill-being!?). I think we are losing our
> ability to talk and reason about these things because the very
> tools we'd use to communicate are getting destroyed by propaganda.
You're right. In fact, "the general welfare" is in the first line of
the US Constitution. However, now it invokes images of welfare mothers
breeding like rabbits (by implication black); a racist political PR
tool.
I did use the term "welfare" on purpose actually, because it's sadly
funny. ;) Many programmers call themselves "libertarian," which in the
US means an extreme free-market type. But we above all benefitted from
government subsidies, and ideologically we claim we have a RIGHT to it
and no one could use it better. Poor nations are "shitholes", and tech
subsidies are the only things holding the US back from extreme poverty.
I think people should take the nice subsidies and use them responsibly.
;) Tech is neutral but can have wonderful uses. One good first step is
to stop lying to ourselves on the internet.
Tayssir John Gabbour wrote:
> I did use the term "welfare" on purpose actually, because it's sadly
> funny. ;) Many programmers call themselves "libertarian," which in the
> US means an extreme free-market type. But we above all benefitted from
> government subsidies, and ideologically we claim we have a RIGHT to it
> and no one could use it better. Poor nations are "shitholes", and tech
> subsidies are the only things holding the US back from extreme poverty.
If subsidies are the only way that keeps programmers in
employment, then there is no hope for the USA. This is about the
same as just putting all programmers in the government, where they
can collect nice money from the taxpayers. Doesn't make sense to
me. Why not pay subsidies to minimum-wage employees instead, so
they can maybe even *live* on three of these jobs? Why not
subsidize whatever? Why not just subsidize *everybody*? Oh wait,
then we could maybe just let people keep their tax money in the
first place...
(sidenote: I'm actually for a small general distribution;
everybody gets a fixed amount of money from the government, which
shifts some money from the rich to all those minimum-wage workers.
In return there are no other welfare systems, no subsidies of
any kind etc.)
--
No man is good enough to govern another man without that other's
consent. -- Abraham Lincoln
Ulrich Hobelmann wrote:
>
> If subsidies are the only way that keeps programmers in employment,
> then there is no hope for the USA. This is about the same as just
> putting all programmers in the government, where they can collect nice
> money from the taxpayers. Doesn't make sense to me.
If indeed you are a student, as per another post of yours, then I must
say you are certainly sounding like a silly foreign student in this
post. Do you have any first-hand basis on which to speak of the job
market in the USA?
> Why not pay subsidies to minimum-wage employees instead, so they can
> maybe even *live* on three of these jobs?
Because such workers don't have the skills to do the R&D that the
government wants.
> Why not subsidize whatever? Why not just subsidize *everybody*? Oh
> wait, then we could maybe just let people keep their tax money in the
> first place...
The more practical approach is to raise the Federal or State minimum
wage. Which does happen. Of course, minimum wage is always minimum
wage. It is never terribly livable.
--
Cheers, www.indiegamedesign.com
Brandon Van Every Seattle, WA
20% of the world is real.
80% is gobbledygook we make up inside our own heads.
Brandon J. Van Every wrote:
> Ulrich Hobelmann wrote:
>
>>
>> If subsidies are the only way that keeps programmers in employment,
>> then there is no hope for the USA. This is about the same as just
>> putting all programmers in the government, where they can collect nice
>> money from the taxpayers. Doesn't make sense to me.
>
>
> If indeed you are a student, as per another post of yours, then I must
> say you are certainly sounding like a silly foreign student in this
> post. Do you have any first-hand basis on which to speak of the job
> market in the USA?
I'm not involved with the job market in the US, no (I'm not
allowed to work here). I was simply referring to the claim that
subsidies keep programmers in employment. If the government needs
to subsidize them, why not employ them in the goverment. Then we
would have almost communism, with nobody unemployed -- oh wait.
(The statement I made was totally not referring to the US job market.)
>> Why not pay subsidies to minimum-wage employees instead, so they can
>> maybe even *live* on three of these jobs?
>
>
> Because such workers don't have the skills to do the R&D that the
> government wants.
So the government wants research (with unknown outcomes) more than
the employment and not-starving of its citizens? 25% of all USA
families are *poor*, and that's not just poor as in "can't afford
designer clothes".
>> Why not subsidize whatever? Why not just subsidize *everybody*? Oh
>> wait, then we could maybe just let people keep their tax money in the
>> first place...
>
>
> The more practical approach is to raise the Federal or State minimum
> wage. Which does happen. Of course, minimum wage is always minimum
> wage. It is never terribly livable.
Which was one reason why I rallied for the Democrats (Kerry) last
year. Well, it kinda worked in Wisconsin, but Florida and others
screwed up on this.
--
No man is good enough to govern another man without that other's
consent. -- Abraham Lincoln
Ulrich Hobelmann wrote:
> Brandon J. Van Every wrote:
>
>> Ulrich Hobelmann wrote:
>>
>>> Why not pay subsidies to minimum-wage employees instead, so they can
>>> maybe even *live* on three of these jobs?
>>
>> Because such workers don't have the skills to do the R&D that the
>> government wants.
>
>
> So the government wants research (with unknown outcomes) more than the
> employment and not-starving of its citizens?
Yep. This is the arch-Capitalist country. And if you're afraid of
"unknown outcomes," you have no business even discussing R&D.
> 25% of all USA families are *poor*, and that's not just poor as in
> "can't afford designer clothes".
They are nevertheless incredibly wealthy compared to the poor sots in
the Third World. Even our homeless bums are living an enviable
existence compared to various Third World slimeholes. Nobody starves
over here. They might be malnourished, and their health is surely poor,
but those are secondary effects from the lifestyles they're choosing.
Anyone who wants to eat properly can do so here, for free. It's a
simple matter of showing up at the right place at the right time, a
discipline that a surprising number of people can't avail themselves
of. They'd rather "spare change" you for a burger, a pack of cigs,
booze, and drugs. In general a lot of services are available for people
here. You need to live in close proximity to these lazy bums and avail
yourself of the services yourself, to really get a sense of how lazy
they are.
--
Cheers, www.indiegamedesign.com
Brandon Van Every Seattle, WA
20% of the world is real.
80% is gobbledygook we make up inside our own heads.
Brandon J. Van Every wrote:
> They are nevertheless incredibly wealthy compared to the poor sots in
> the Third World. Even our homeless bums are living an enviable
> existence compared to various Third World slimeholes. Nobody starves
> over here. They might be malnourished, and their health is surely poor,
> but those are secondary effects from the lifestyles they're choosing.
I don't think it's that simple. When a single mom has to do three
minimum-wage jobs (obviously she has neither the time nor the
money to get a better education then) to pay the bills and raise
her one or two kids, I wouldn't say she *chooses* that lifestyle.
It's called getting by.
> Anyone who wants to eat properly can do so here, for free. It's a
> simple matter of showing up at the right place at the right time, a
> discipline that a surprising number of people can't avail themselves
> of. They'd rather "spare change" you for a burger, a pack of cigs,
Ok, now we're talking beggars. I think most (or a large number)
of "poor" households in the US are families, mostly with a single
mother. Some can't even afford a place, so they live in cars (all
that info from my Sociology 110 class). Most of them work, though.
> booze, and drugs. In general a lot of services are available for people
> here. You need to live in close proximity to these lazy bums and avail
> yourself of the services yourself, to really get a sense of how lazy
> they are.
Sure, some people just hang out on the streets. Maybe it even
pays well, like for some of the beggars in Chicago downtown (I
suppose), or the numerous people on the NYC subway (I highly
suspect, at least when tourists are around).
But most households in poverty are small, broken families.
Obviously it's much harder to pay the bills for more than one
person AND care for them (kids), especially when you're just one
person working and maybe don't have as good an education as the
average male in this country.
--
No man is good enough to govern another man without that other's
consent. -- Abraham Lincoln
On Wed, 20 Apr 2005 20:52:20 -0500, Ulrich Hobelmann wrote:
> But most households in poverty are small, broken families. Obviously
> it's much harder to pay the bills for more than one person AND care for
> them (kids), especially when you're just one person working and maybe
> don't have as good an education as the average male in this country.
There's a lot of ways to get into poverty. Medical expenses for instance.
An awful lot of people are at most two paychecks away from poverty.
Tayssir John Gabbour wrote:
>
>You're right. In fact, "the general welfare" is in the first line of
>the US Constitution.
>
Indeed, and it's a *long* friggin' first line!
>However, now it invokes images of welfare mothers
>breeding like rabbits
>
The line in the Constitution is "the general welfare," not "the welfare
recipients." Welfare recipients are rather specific welfare. General
welfare is things like having a First Amendment, a Second Amendment,
etc. Remember that you're entitled to the *pursuit* of happiness.
>(by implication black); a racist political PR
>tool.
>
>
Do you even live in the USA? Are stereotypes from abroad your only tool
for analyzing US politics?
--
Cheers, www.indiegamedesign.com
Brandon Van Every Seattle, WA
20% of the world is real.
80% is gobbledygook we make up inside our own heads.
Brandon J. Van Every wrote:
> Tayssir John Gabbour wrote:
> >(by implication black); a racist political PR
> >tool.
> >
> Do you even live in the USA? Are stereotypes from abroad your only
> tool for analyzing US politics?
Is this one of your PR tactics? ;) Coax me to respond with silly
personal accusations, rather than cooly request evidence? And if I
ignore you, you "win"? That's reminiscent of Bush/Rove's smear against
well known Republican John McCain. Such as the implications he fathered
an illegitimate black daughter (she was adopted from Mother Teresa's
orphanage in Bangladesh), and so on.
http://www.boston.com/news/politics/president/articles/2004/03/21/the_anatomy_of_a_smear_campaign/
Amy Goodman interviewed McCain as he surprisingly supported Bush in
2004; go ahead and search for it. Shades of Reagan's Willie Horton.
In fact, PBS pointed out that drug laws (in this case marijuana) were
based on racism:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/dope/etc/cron.html
The HORRORS of marijuana (drug of presidents, as Bush admitted on
tape!) heavily contribute to our world-beating levels of incarceration.
We disproportionately lock up minorities, of course.
http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs2/r234.pdf
Most forums have someone who intentionally posts in such a personal
manner to coax people to respond. You are ours, and you'll forgive me
for ignoring your future histrionics. I love my nation, but we have
problems to solve. I'm sure you mean well in defending the status quo.
Tayssir John Gabbour wrote:
>Brandon J. Van Every wrote:
>
>
>>Tayssir John Gabbour wrote:
>>
>>
>>>(by implication black); a racist political PR
>>>tool.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>Do you even live in the USA? Are stereotypes from abroad your only
>>tool for analyzing US politics?
>>
>>
>
>Is this one of your PR tactics? ;) Coax me to respond with silly
>personal accusations, rather than cooly request evidence?
>
How do you fathom that the above is anything but a request for evidence?
You are on your own tangent about America == Bush. We are talking past
each other, and this is now grossly off-topic. Thus I will bow out from
future discussion on the matter.
--
Cheers, www.indiegamedesign.com
Brandon Van Every Seattle, WA
20% of the world is real.
80% is gobbledygook we make up inside our own heads.
Tayssir John Gabbour <···········@yahoo.com> wrote:
+---------------
| Bulent Murtezaoglu wrote:
| > I suspect you didn't do this on purpose, and I realize I am on thin
| > ice as a non-native speaker, but might I point out that "general
| > welfare" is only percieved as synonymous with "wealth transfer
| > through government coercion" because of an Orwellian corruption of
| > language. Who, afterall, can be against "general welfare"?
|
| You're right. In fact, "the general welfare" is in the first line of
| the US Constitution. However, now it invokes images of welfare mothers
| breeding like rabbits (by implication black); a racist political PR tool.
+---------------
Maybe it's time for a more politically-correct update?
% diff -c USConstitution-1.0.txt USConstitution-1.1.txt
*** USConstitution-1.0.txt 2005-04-20 20:34:06.000000000 -0700
--- USConstitution-1.1.txt 2005-04-20 20:34:41.000000000 -0700
***************
*** 1,5 ****
We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect
Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquillity, provide for
! the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the
Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and
establish this Constitution for the United States of America.
--- 1,5 ----
We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect
Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquillity, provide for
! the common defence, promote general Wellbeing, and secure the
Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and
establish this Constitution for the United States of America.
%
-Rob
-----
Rob Warnock <····@rpw3.org>
627 26th Avenue <URL:http://rpw3.org/>
San Mateo, CA 94403 (650)572-2607
Brandon J. Van Every wrote:
> "Welfare?" That's hysterical. Every industrialized nation in the world
> invests in R&D, so that they can maintain economic and military
> advantages over other countries. Maybe you'd prefer that everywhere was
> some Third World shithole?
Actually universities seem to do some research on their own. I'm
sure Harvard and others don't exclusively live on DARPA (and
other) grants. Also, not all research costs resources (except
paying the researchers, but professors are paid, and students are
often free).
Lots of companies do research too, to maintain those advantages
you mention.
Actually I don't quite know what research in one nation has to do
with not being a shithole as you call it. Even without federally
funded research companies would have brought us technology. And
Third World shitholes can just as well use that research we have
in industrial countries and develop technology with it!
--
No man is good enough to govern another man without that other's
consent. -- Abraham Lincoln
Ulrich Hobelmann wrote:
> Brandon J. Van Every wrote:
>
>> "Welfare?" That's hysterical. Every industrialized nation in the
>> world invests in R&D, so that they can maintain economic and military
>> advantages over other countries. Maybe you'd prefer that everywhere
>> was some Third World shithole?
>
>
> Actually universities seem to do some research on their own. I'm sure
> Harvard and others don't exclusively live on DARPA (and other)
> grants. Also, not all research costs resources (except paying the
> researchers, but professors are paid, and students are often free).
>
Why are you so sure? To say that universities, in general, keep going
on "independent funding" is silly. Mostly they either get it from the
government or from corporate partnerships.
> Lots of companies do research too, to maintain those advantages you
> mention.
Define "lots." I would say far more gets done by universities.
> Actually I don't quite know what research in one nation has to do with
> not being a shithole as you call it. Even without federally funded
> research companies would have brought us technology.
How would you substantiate that claim? There is no recent alternate
history to compare it to.
> And Third World shitholes can just as well use that research we have
> in industrial countries and develop technology with it!
>
Technology transfer isn't a cakewalk.
--
Cheers, www.indiegamedesign.com
Brandon Van Every Seattle, WA
When no one else sells courage, supply and demand take hold.
Brandon J. Van Every wrote:
> Why are you so sure? To say that universities, in general, keep going
> on "independent funding" is silly. Mostly they either get it from the
> government or from corporate partnerships.
The latter seems fine.
>> Lots of companies do research too, to maintain those advantages you
>> mention.
>
>
> Define "lots." I would say far more gets done by universities.
Most big companies in technical business (except maybe HP and
Dell). Lots of small companies, too, that want an edge over the
competition.
Sure, universities are probably more, but again, most of those
people are employed professors, and they say "publish or perish"
for a reason.
If a CS prof stopped doing research because DARPA doesn't pay for
it, I would be surprised and disappointed. What more can you
expect than being payed for all your work hours?
>> Actually I don't quite know what research in one nation has to do with
>> not being a shithole as you call it. Even without federally funded
>> research companies would have brought us technology.
>
>
> How would you substantiate that claim? There is no recent alternate
> history to compare it to.
I think most important human inventions were made by private
inventors/hobbyists, people at universities (even without grants)
and companies. I may be wrong (so there's no substance).
>> And Third World shitholes can just as well use that research we have
>> in industrial countries and develop technology with it!
>>
> Technology transfer isn't a cakewalk.
>
--
No man is good enough to govern another man without that other's
consent. -- Abraham Lincoln
Ulrich Hobelmann <···········@web.de> writes:
> Actually universities seem to do some research on their own. I'm sure
> Harvard and others don't exclusively live on DARPA (and other) grants.
Actually, such places do pretty much depend on DARPA (and other) grants.
and have been in dire straights since the Cold War ended.
Less research is getting done.
> I haven't thought about why it is that te USA has enjoyed such
> a lead in the software market. I assume it mostly has to do
> with our education system, and the general leg-up from our
> wealth compared to the less developed nations like India.
> Japan tried and failed in the 1980s, perhaps due to cultural
> differences. Now India is becoming serious competition.
>
> I don't know exactly what we ought to do differently to continue
> to dominate this market, but desperately hoping that the folks
> in India won't improve their capabilities isn't the answer.
Yes, India had 200 years of British rule, so English and English-style
education was well-established. It gives themn the leverage they
need to succeed in software. I rather suspect that India may have
a better university system than England these days.
Mark
·······@Yahoo.Com (Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t) wrote
>> From: "Brandon J. Van Every"
>>
>> I can't fathom how you could acquire 15 years of practical Lisp
>> experience and presently be willing to work for $5/hour in the USA.
>
> I'd like to work for more, but no paying work whatsoever is available
> during this recession,
You are lying, particularly to yourself. The truth is, you're making
choices about what you will / won't do to hustle yourself, and what
languages you will / won't work with. I make those choices too. I'm
just honest with myself about them.
If you wanna get paid to do Lisp, you're gonna have to make the right
moves. "I'll work for peanuts!" is the wrong move. Nobody will take
you seriously. The right move is more like putting some compelling Lisp
app on your website, and networking with a whole bunch of people who
actually have Lisp jobs. You're probably also going to have to move to
wherever the job is, as there's no concentration of jobs anywhere in the
country for any of the 'fancy' languages.
>> It seems like your argument is either completely disingenuous, or
>> else, well, nobody in their right mind would hire you.
>
> You have a fucking stupid attitude.
No, frankly you do. Anyone with your intelligence and experience who's
offering himself for minimum wage is fucking stupid, in a certain
respect. Put another way, your weakness is in business schmoozing. You
seem very clueless about how one would go about advertizing oneself to
get a Lisp job.
You also seem to be missing some basic business math. I don't know how
you are supporting yourself currently, if you think it is possible to
live in California on minimum wage. Let alone make enough money to
mitigate the risks of running a business.
Again, misc.business.consulting for starter materials. Also, go to the
public library. They have lots of free books on what to do.
> I'm telling the truth. I have 15
> years experience programming in Lisp (and 7 years experience in other
> programming languages). I'm very good at programming. Anyone who would
> hire me to do the kind of work I am good at doing would get a true
> bargain, good work at low cost. Somebody hiring me would be very much
> in "right mind". It's the people like you, who conclude since I got
> laid off during a recession and am still unemployed that I must be
> worthless, who are not in their right mind.
You're crying to the wrong guy about the recession. Circumstances suck,
but it's your responsibility to decide how you're going to market
yourself and get others to pay you.
>> $12/hour scrubbing floors
>> $15/hour painting apartments
>> $17/hour on heavy yard work
>
> I have a flattened spinal disk, so I probably couldn't do such work on
> any regular basis, like more than an hour a day for the first two, or
> ten minutes for the last. A few years ago when I was moving to a new
> apartment, all by myself, no help from anyone, at the end I accidently
> twisted my back and for the next three days I was unable to get out of
> bed except by spending a full hour maneuvering over to hands and knees
> whereupon I could finally crawl but not stand up.
Are you on permanent disability? As bad as a disability might
be, I think having a legitimate excuse to receive permanent funding from
the government would be an enviable position as a software developer.
You could build some killer app on disability money and spring it on the
world when you're good and ready to. Sure beats minimum wage.
>> $8/hour registering voters
>> $20/hour gathering signatures when it's going well.
>
> Definitely "sales" job, harassing people to spend their time for no
> benefit to them.
I get tired of people with that kind of attitude. Signature gatherers
allow the common person to participate in the political process
directly. This *is* of benefit to those who sign, and also to those who
at least evaluate the initiatives whether they sign them or not. Every
once in awhile I meet some stick-in-the-mud who thinks their elected
officials are infallible and that ordinary citizens shouldn't be a
direct part of the political process. I think such people are morons.
My own view of politicians is they aren't inherently better than lots of
other people out there. They are simply better at cutting deals and
getting their way.
> Is there any money for gathering signatures for a
> petition to outlaw hiring overseas workers for less than the legal
> minimum wage in the USA? I think I could "get into that".
*Forming* petitions is a different ballgame than getting people to
*sign* petitions. Signature gatherers are low on the political food
chain. We're all mercenaries. We're all there to make money, and we
have varying degrees of idealism and mores. I'm 'somewhat idealistic'.
There are measures I won't carry. Others don't care what they carry.
They see people as a dollar sign and nothing more.
I don't know much about the art of *forming* a petition. That's a kind
of political lobbying. You'd need funding from some source to pay the
signature gatherers. The reality is, you can't get measures qualified
for the ballot with volunteers. Volunteers just don't have the stamina
to do all the hard work required to qualify a measure for the ballot.
Anyways if you want to *form* petitions, to some degree you're talking
about a career in politics. With all the dealmaking, huckstering, and
salesmanship that entails.
--
Cheers, www.indiegamedesign.com
Brandon Van Every Seattle, WA
"The pioneer is the one with the arrows in his back."
- anonymous entrepreneur
From: Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t
Subject: Re: can anyone offer Lisp job?
Date:
Message-ID: <REM-2005apr24-002@Yahoo.Com>
> From: "Brandon J. Van Every" <·····················@mycompanyname.com>
> >> I can't fathom how you could acquire 15 years of practical Lisp
> >> experience and presently be willing to work for $5/hour in the USA.
> > I'd like to work for more, but no paying work whatsoever is available
> > during this recession,
> You are lying, particularly to yourself.
No. I've applied for every job where I thought I could do the job, and
haven't been accepted at any. I didn't apply to jobs that I'm
physically incapable of, such as trying to lift over 50 pounds on a
regular basis with my flattened spinal disk, or a job that requires a
professional degree in law or medicine etc.
> The truth is, you're making choices about what you will / won't do to
> hustle yourself,
Well I'm not willing to do something illegal if that's what you mean.
> and what languages you will / won't work with.
No, I'm willing to work in any language that can do the job.
> Anyone with your intelligence and experience who's offering himself
> for minimum wage is fucking stupid, in a certain respect.
So given that nobody has been willing to hire me at $30/hr, and nobody
has been willing to hire me at $20/hr, and nobody has been willing to
hire me at $10/hr, and nobody has been willing to hire me at legal
minimum wage, how much should I offer myself for, given that my
competition is in India? How much do the Indians charge anyway?
> You seem very clueless about how one would go about advertizing
> oneself to get a Lisp job.
Perhaps you can enlighten me how exactly? Have you seen my
Lisp-specific resume, as well as my general resume?
> You could build some killer app on disability money and spring it on
> the world when you're good and ready to.
I've written a bunch of useful software, based on what I personally
thought would be worth doing, and I've also presented some ideas as to
what I might do next, but nobody has shown any interest in them. So I
need some input from others as to what applications anybody might be
interested in. Please suggest a WebServer application (all the
"business logic" runs on the Web server, accessible from any ordinary
Web browser) that would interest people.
Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t wrote:
> So given that nobody has been willing to hire me at $30/hr, and nobody
> has been willing to hire me at $20/hr, and nobody has been willing to
> hire me at $10/hr, and nobody has been willing to hire me at legal
> minimum wage, how much should I offer myself for, given that my
> competition is in India? How much do the Indians charge anyway?
I don't think they're reluctant to pay $30/h. I rather think you
didn't fit their requirements, so they just didn't want to hire
you. Maybe working on your skills (that companies value) would help?
--
No man is good enough to govern another man without that other's
consent. -- Abraham Lincoln
·······@Yahoo.Com (Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t) writes:
> job that requires a professional degree in law or medicine etc.
A nitpick first:
You last worked in 1992 for 2 weeks , part-time.
The 13 years since then would have been enough to
get a professional degrees in BOTH law and medicine.
A Useful Suggestion:
Do volunteer work.
Eg: with St Vincent De Paul or charitable organizations that teach the poor
and elderly computer skills. Even meals on wheels would be worthwhile.
Join your local church, local clubs, local rotary/lions clubs.
Why ?
Simple. Jobs are mainly obtained by networking.
I have 13 employees, all paid at well above the market wage for their position.
Every single one got their jobs through friendship networks.
My most successful hires have gone like this::
"Jill, Judy and Jane, I need someone to do X who can work 3 afternoons a week.
Do you know anyone ?"
Jill and Jane then recomend someone suitable ( both in skill set and temperament)
I interview them, select Jane's acquaintance from Kenpo and keep Jill's
ex-classmate at uni in reserve.
A couple of employees are designated to train the new employee.
Jane makes sure that her acquaintance is tuned into the organisational
culture and unwritten expectations.
The Result:
The company gets someone suitable who fits in well and the newbie gets
a job and his/her trasition is eased. Jane's friend feels grateful to
Jane. Jane is happy that someone she can work with is appointed and that
her suggestion was taken seriously.
Everyone benefits.
I hope that you do find a job that you are happy with.
From: Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t
Subject: Re: can anyone offer Lisp job?
Date:
Message-ID: <REM-2005aug12-003@Yahoo.Com>
> From: vermicule <······@bigpond.net.au>
> You last worked in 1992 for 2 weeks , part-time.
> The 13 years since then would have been enough to
> get a professional degrees in BOTH law and medicine.
You are omitting one very important, and crucial, showstopping, factor:
It costs a shitload of money for each of law school and medical school.
I've been unemployed, not having enough money even to buy food much
less pay for law school or medical school. If you thought that was the
right path for me, why didn't you offer to pay the entire cost of
putting me though either of those schools back when I first became
unemployed? For that matter, why don't you offer now??
> Do volunteer work.
I've already been doing that for most of my adult life.
> Jobs are mainly obtained by networking.
None of the people I helped since I became unemployed in 1991 have ever
known of any employment opening for which I'd qualify, except for those
2.5 weeks in 1992. Networking hasn't worked for me.
> I have 13 employees, all paid at well above the market wage for their
> position. Every single one got their jobs through friendship networks.
I don't know what you mean by friendship. I've never found anybody with
enough common interests with me and time available to become friends
with me. Maybe you mean friendly acquaintance?? I have several friendly
acquaintances, but none of them have any ideas how to find me a job.
> ... Jane makes sure that her acquaintance is tuned into ...
Ah, so you did mean acquantance, not friendship, OK, understood.
(Several times in the past few years I've called the Kaiser advice
nurse about a condition I was suffering during the wee hours of the
night, and the advice nurse said I should call a friend to take me to
the emergency room immediately, and I said I don't know anyone who
would do that for me, and the advice nurse called me a liar, and we got
into quite an argument over it and I got very upset and never did get
to the emergency room that night. That's part of why I'm so ticked off
about the meaning of "friend". I've never known anyone in my whole life
who would get up at 3-4 AM and come over to my apartment and pick me up
and take me to the hospital, even if I had a possibly life-threatening
ailment, and Kaiser won't pay for ambulance unless I'm already passed
out unable to call 911 in which case I just die because I live alone
and nobody ever comes to visit me and wonder why I don't answer the
door, and it'd be weeks before the neighbors notice the odor of my
decaying body and ask management to come into my room to find my body
and get rid of it.)
(Only once as far back as I can remember have I ever met somebody in RL
who was interested in anything that I'd find interesting to talk about,
and I don't have her phone number so I don't have any way to arrange to
ever talk with her again. None of my discussions in newsgroups or
Yahoo! Clubs/Groups have ever resulted in meeting somebody in RL to
continue such interesting discussions ftf. So I hope you can understand
if I am concerned when you tell me something that seems to imply that I
need friends before I can get a job.)
·······@Yahoo.Com (Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t) writes:
> I'm desperately hoping some company in the USA will realize that the
> overhead in dealing with people who no spekka ingish widout badd aksent
> and live so far away it takes an international long distance phone call
> to talk to them live (as if that did any good with their accent), and
> whose documentation is illegible due to lack of English skills, is just
> not worth dealing with just to shave a couple dollars off the
> already-low minimum wage here in the USA.
It wasn't charming when you were just a whining loser, but this
newfound or newly expressed racism and xenophobia of yours is really
disgusting. Go crawl back into your South Bay hole.
Thomas F. Burdick wrote:
>·······@Yahoo.Com (Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t) writes:
>
>
>
>>I'm desperately hoping some company in the USA will realize that the
>>overhead in dealing with people who no spekka ingish widout badd aksent
>>and live so far away it takes an international long distance phone call
>>to talk to them live (as if that did any good with their accent), and
>>whose documentation is illegible due to lack of English skills, is just
>>not worth dealing with just to shave a couple dollars off the
>>already-low minimum wage here in the USA.
>>
>>
>
>It wasn't charming when you were just a whining loser, but this
>newfound or newly expressed racism and xenophobia of yours is really
>disgusting. Go crawl back into your South Bay hole.
>
>
Why is his sentiment racist or xenophobic? Offensive about some
people's language skills, yes, but it also contains the grain of truth.
--
Cheers, www.indiegamedesign.com
Brandon Van Every Seattle, WA
20% of the world is real.
80% is gobbledygook we make up inside our own heads.
"Brandon J. Van Every" <·····················@mycompanyname.com> writes:
> Thomas F. Burdick wrote:
>
> >·······@Yahoo.Com (Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t) writes:
> >
> >
> >>I'm desperately hoping some company in the USA will realize that the
> >>overhead in dealing with people who no spekka ingish widout badd aksent
> >>and live so far away it takes an international long distance phone call
> >>to talk to them live (as if that did any good with their accent), and
> >>whose documentation is illegible due to lack of English skills, is just
> >>not worth dealing with just to shave a couple dollars off the
> >>already-low minimum wage here in the USA.
> >>
> >
> >It wasn't charming when you were just a whining loser, but this
> >newfound or newly expressed racism and xenophobia of yours is really
> >disgusting. Go crawl back into your South Bay hole.
> >
> Why is his sentiment racist or xenophobic? Offensive about some
> people's language skills, yes, but it also contains the grain of truth.
English is the main language of India. There's no reason to believe
an Indian would be less skilled at English than a North American.
Often North Americans are less understandable than other (of British
influence) English speakers...
http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/in.html
English enjoys associate status but is the most important language
for national, political, and commercial communication; Hindi is
the national language and primary tongue of 30% of the people;
there are 14 other official languages: Bengali, Telugu, Marathi,
Tamil, Urdu, Gujarati, Malayalam, Kannada, Oriya, Punjabi,
Assamese, Kashmiri, Sindhi, and Sanskrit; Hindustani is a popular
variant of Hindi/Urdu spoken widely throughout northern India but
is not an official language.
--
__Pascal Bourguignon__ http://www.informatimago.com/
In a World without Walls and Fences,
who needs Windows and Gates?
Pascal Bourguignon wrote:
>English is the main language of India.
>
I thought it was Hindi.
>There's no reason to believe
>an Indian would be less skilled at English than a North American.
>
>
Are you saying this as a matter of theory, or a matter of personal
experience in India?
--
Cheers, www.indiegamedesign.com
Brandon Van Every Seattle, WA
20% of the world is real.
80% is gobbledygook we make up inside our own heads.
"Brandon J. Van Every" <·····················@mycompanyname.com> writes:
>> English is the main language of India.
> I thought it was Hindi.
My experience has been that educated Indians invariably speak English.
Only North Indians speak Hindi.
South Indians view Hindi the way the English view French.
Something they study in school, but not something they generally speak.
"Brandon J. Van Every" <·····················@mycompanyname.com> writes:
> Pascal Bourguignon wrote:
>
> > English is the main language of India.
> I thought it was Hindi.
Only spoken by 30% of the population, as indicated by the quote from
the CIA World Fact you justiciously elided.
> >There's no reason to believe
> >an Indian would be less skilled at English than a North American.
> >
> Are you saying this as a matter of theory, or a matter of personal
> experience in India?
You're right, if I must judge from the number of weapon of mass
destruction foundin Irak, the CIA must be completely wrong and 100% of
Indians must speak Hindi, and none can speak decent English.
--
__Pascal Bourguignon__ http://www.informatimago.com/
In deep sleep hear sound,
Cat vomit hairball somewhere.
Will find in morning.
Pascal Bourguignon wrote:
> English is the main language of India. There's no reason to believe
> an Indian would be less skilled at English than a North American.
> Often North Americans are less understandable than other (of British
> influence) English speakers...
Maybe they are skilled, but sometimes you can read that they
aren't native (even though as you say their are legally). I
(German) have really trouble understanding blacks and indians here
in the US, and I don't consider myself racist (except that I
dislike my own country :D). English people are hard sometimes
(when they use their very own slang words), but otherwise quite
clear, yes.
>
> http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/in.html
>
> English enjoys associate status but is the most important language
> for national, political, and commercial communication; Hindi is
> the national language and primary tongue of 30% of the people;
> there are 14 other official languages: Bengali, Telugu, Marathi,
> Tamil, Urdu, Gujarati, Malayalam, Kannada, Oriya, Punjabi,
> Assamese, Kashmiri, Sindhi, and Sanskrit; Hindustani is a popular
> variant of Hindi/Urdu spoken widely throughout northern India but
> is not an official language.
Well, in Germany about everybody learns 5-10 years of English.
Have you heard their accents though? Seriously, it's not pretty
(though I can understand most people; but I grew up with with that
accent). Maybe the Indians learn English from teachers with bad
accents too? ;)
--
No man is good enough to govern another man without that other's
consent. -- Abraham Lincoln
Ulrich Hobelmann <···········@web.de> writes:
> I (German) have really trouble understanding blacks and indians here in the US, and I
> don't consider myself racist
Of course you dont...
israel wrote:
>Ulrich Hobelmann <···········@web.de> writes:
>
>
>
>>I (German) have really trouble understanding blacks and indians here in the US, and I
>>don't consider myself racist
>>
>>
>
>Of course you dont...
>
>
>
That is not fair. People in certain parts of the USA have *very* heavy
accents. I will never forget the black movers when I was moved from San
Francisco to North Carolina at age 11. I was watching something on TV.
The mover asked me, "Dyawannabeawrassler?" Only because I was watching
TV, and some guy in spandex was giving some other guy a body slam in a
ring, did I figure it out. A wrestler! "wrassler" == wrestler. Lotsa
things went like that. I had to think really really hard for awhile to
understand certain people.
--
Cheers, www.indiegamedesign.com
Brandon Van Every Seattle, WA
20% of the world is real.
80% is gobbledygook we make up inside our own heads.
Brandon J. Van Every wrote:
> That is not fair. People in certain parts of the USA have *very* heavy
> accents. I will never forget the black movers when I was moved from San
> Francisco to North Carolina at age 11. I was watching something on TV.
> The mover asked me, "Dyawannabeawrassler?" Only because I was watching
> TV, and some guy in spandex was giving some other guy a body slam in a
> ring, did I figure it out. A wrestler! "wrassler" == wrestler. Lotsa
> things went like that. I had to think really really hard for awhile to
> understand certain people.
The worst was one time at Taco Bell. That guy asked me "do you
want a haaaa or saaaahaaa?". After re-asking three times (like
"hot, or with sauce??") and getting feeling really embarrassed, I
found out that he wanted to know if I want a Hard or Soft shell.
Leaving out consonants is something that I just can't deal with,
especially when people make all vowels sound about the same too.
But admittedly that guy was quite unique in his not having any
remotely "standard" pronunciation.
--
No man is good enough to govern another man without that other's
consent. -- Abraham Lincoln
Ulrich Hobelmann <···········@web.de> writes:
> Maybe the Indians learn English from teachers with bad accents too? ;)
I think the Indian accent is charming. With that many native English
speaking, isn't it natural that they have their own dialects of
English? Your question is almost equivalent to asking if all Bavarian
children learn German from teachers with bad accents!
--
(espen)
Ulrich Hobelmann <···········@web.de> writes:
> Pascal Bourguignon wrote:
>> English is the main language of India. There's no reason to believe
>> an Indian would be less skilled at English than a North American.
>> Often North Americans are less understandable than other (of British
>> influence) English speakers...
>
> Maybe they are skilled, but sometimes you can read that they aren't
> native (even though as you say their are legally). I (German) have
> really trouble understanding blacks and indians here in the US, and I
> don't consider myself racist (except that I dislike my own country
> :D). English people are hard sometimes (when they use their very own
> slang words), but otherwise quite clear, yes.
>
>> http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/in.html
>> English enjoys associate status but is the most important
>> language
>> for national, political, and commercial communication; Hindi is
>> the national language and primary tongue of 30% of the people;
>> there are 14 other official languages: Bengali, Telugu, Marathi,
>> Tamil, Urdu, Gujarati, Malayalam, Kannada, Oriya, Punjabi,
>> Assamese, Kashmiri, Sindhi, and Sanskrit; Hindustani is a popular
>> variant of Hindi/Urdu spoken widely throughout northern India but
>> is not an official language.
>
> Well, in Germany about everybody learns 5-10 years of English. Have
> you heard their accents though? Seriously, it's not pretty (though I
> can understand most people; but I grew up with with that accent).
> Maybe the Indians learn English from teachers with bad accents too? ;)
>
I think there are a couple of points missing in all of this. My
experience when studying comp sci at university was that nearly 90% of
the post graduate students where either from India or China. I also
found that while all the Indian students had an accent, they were easy
to understand and their english was very good. Where were all the
non-india/chinese etc post grads? As udnergrads, the mix was pretty
much the reverse - only about 10 to 20% were indian or chinese.
The point which seems to be over looked to some degree is the number
of Indians who have adequate IT skills - certainly as adequate as many
of the Austsralian/American/English programmers I've known who program
in VB, Java or C. In fact, many of them have been very talented (well,
I've yet to meet a truely talented VB programmer). Moving programming
jobs off-shore doesn't quite mean the same as moving a manufacturing
job to Mexico or Indonesia or china or india as the skill sets
required are much higher and more defficult to obtain. What I'm
wondering is if the shift to India is due to cheaper wages or was it
due to an over priced labour market in the US which developed because
of a shortage in the pool of skilled labour available? Is it possible
that programmers in the US/Australia have contributed to the situation
by not putting in the same effort to become as knowledgable and
experienced as they could?
One final bit on language and difficulties of understanding - I think
it was Oscar Wild who said, when visiting the US, something along the
lines of "Its so nice to be here - we have so much in common, with the
exception of english"
Point being we have to be very careful about the importance of being
able to speak english well. While it is certainly one of the most (if
not the most) widely spoken language, its not the only language spoken
and many software companies are marketing globally - the ability of
staff to speak english may not be that important or that much of a
benefit.
Tim
--
Tim Cross
The e-mail address on this message is FALSE (obviously!). My real e-mail is
to a company in Australia called rapttech and my login is tcross - if you
really need to send mail, you should be able to work it out!
> Is it possible
> that programmers in the US/Australia have contributed to the
situation
> by not putting in the same effort to become as knowledgable and
> experienced as they could?
Yes, that's what I have been trying to say. Outsourcing is at least
partially a result of lack of skill and knowledge on the american side.
The competition is not (only) in price, it is more often than not in
the ability to get the job done on time and with good quality.
In the past, american software industry had a clear and
hard-to-overcome advantage of much easier and cheaper access to the
expensive equipment. This is not an issue anymore; and american
programmers have to compete with smart, knowledgeable and willing to
work engineers from just about any country in the world.
Better skills matter to a much greater extent than lower price of
labour.
David Tolpin
http://davidashen.net/
From: Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t
Subject: Re: [OT] can anyone offer Lisp job?
Date:
Message-ID: <REM-2005apr23-002@Yahoo.Com>
> From: Tim X <····@spamto.devnul.com>
> Moving programming jobs off-shore doesn't quite mean the same as
> moving a manufacturing job to Mexico or Indonesia or china or india
> as the skill sets required are much higher and more defficult to
> obtain.
So why do companies in the USA ignore potential employees in the USA,
even those who have adequate skill sets, and choose to hire those in
India with basically the same skill sets?
> What I'm wondering is if the shift to India is due to cheaper wages
> or was it due to an over priced labour market in the US which
> developed because of a shortage in the pool of skilled labour
> available?
It's true that I earned appx. $20/hr at my previous major programming
job, which might be considered "overpriced" (when compared to an
Indian's price), but during this recession I've offered to work at the
Federal minimum wage, so my own price isn't "overpriced", unless you
consider even the Federal minimum wage to be "overpriced" currently.
To clarify the issue, please tell me how much $/hour you consider to be
overpriced for software development currently.
> Is it possible that programmers in the US/Australia have contributed
> to the situation by not putting in the same effort to become as
> knowledgable and experienced as they could?
I've accumulated at least 22 years computer programming experience,
which I think is quite enough to qualify for a minimum wage programming
job (and in a better economy, a programming job at higher than minimum
wage). While unemployed I've taught myself new languages/methodology
(CL, HTML, CGI) on top of what I had before (earlier versions of Lisp,
Algol, Fortran, various assembly languages, just a little C), and I've
taken classes to learn some more languages (more C, VB, Java, C++, more
HTML). Is there something you consdider essential for qualifying for a
computer-programming job, which I haven't mentioned?
> Point being we have to be very careful about the importance of being
> able to speak english well. While it is certainly one of the most (if
> not the most) widely spoken language, its not the only language
> spoken and many software companies are marketing globally - the
> ability of staff to speak english may not be that important or that
> much of a benefit.
I agree, in general. Let me make my earlier comments more specific:
When the customer is in the USA and speaks only English, and that
customer needs customer support, it's important that the person at the
customer support phoneline can speak English well. Likewise if the
American-English customer is trying to read documentation, it's
important that the documentation be written by somebody who is capable
of writing decent English. Most Indians don't qualify for either good
spoken English nor written English in the view of the American-English
customer. For other customers, different customer-support people may be
more appropriate. Companies should match the language of the customer
to the language of documentation and customer support. Companies should
*not* have Indians with strong accent handling all customers without
regard to the accent-mismatch problem.
By the way, when I tried to apply for customer-support jobs, I was
denied consideration because my background is programming and the
companies prefer people with little or no programmign experience but
lots of human relations experience.
I often have input into the decision to hire people who might end up
programming in lispish languages (one even ended up working in
scheme!), and I was in just about the position that you are in 16
months ago, so possibly my perspective will be helpful. I would not
hire anyone who came across in an interview as you do in this
newsgroup, but if your technical skills are strong and your
self-presentation changes, I believe you could do quite well in today's
job market.
You do not necessarily need a job, what you really need is to have
shelter and eat. It probably makes sense to get money, and buy the
food/shelter, but you do not necessarily need a salaried job to get the
money. Make sure that you are solving the right problem.
A few non-job opportunities that you should look into to get money:
1- As examples of what you can do to get money that does not involve
getting a job at all, you can do TopCoder, writing in Linj or jscheme,
and see how you measure up...Topcoder gives out several thousand
dollars per week in prize money, I think. Again, if you are good
enough to place in the top 3 regularly there, you will be doing much
better than most people who work at anywhere near minimum wage.
2- There are a lot of kids who would love to have their programming
homework done-many of them try to get people to do it for free on here
or on the other language lists, but there are many who will pay. if
they pay you $1 per problem, or even $1 per problem set, you could do
ok-ish.
3- If you are good at standardized tests and can teach at all, you can
probably get hired by Kaplan, the Princeton Review, or one of their
competitors. They pay $15-$30 per hour, depending on what you are
doing. You can also get about as many hours as you want with them-I
worked a 110 hour week just before the june LSAT in 2000 or 2001.
4- Get funded for a startup. This one is enough of a longshot that you
probably should not consider it, but had you done the summer founders
program with Graham, you would have at least a little while during
which you could get on your feet.
assuming that you do want to get a job:
1- you do not need to be constrained by the federal minimum wage. You
can offer work on contract, and therefore work at any rate that you
want. Therefore, the minimum wage is a non-issue, and everything you
have said about outsourcing is a moot point. Harping on outsourcing,
minimum wage et al is a probable interview-killer, so I would not do
it. If you came in talking like that in an interview, I would turn you
down regardless of your technical skills.
2- I do not particularly care that you have 22 years of experience. I
want people who are very good. Either you are very good or you are
not. If you are very good, you might consider doing some or all of the
programming samples at http://itasoftware.com/careers/eng/job1.php. As
I understand it, a good solution gets you an interview. If you are
good enough to solve one of these, you might well be able to get a very
good job, with a company that does a lot of common lisp.
3- It would be a very good idea to have some more things online that
you can point to and say "that was me". Open-source stuff in lisp,
entries in programming contests, almost whatever it is, it would be
helpful. Right now there is literally no code available that I can
look at and see whether you know what you are talking about.
4- give it away. If you are very good, you can knock out several
hundred lines of code in a day, in lisp. As it seems from you post
volume that you do not have other pressing engagements-I would ask
people for something that they want done in lisp, and do it for free.
Then you have an accomplishment, and probably a reference.
Presently, your main liabilities, were I considering you as an
applicant, are your attitude and your lack of demonstrated capability.
You can change both in a fairly short time.
Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t wrote:
> So why do companies in the USA ignore potential employees in the USA,
> even those who have adequate skill sets, and choose to hire those in
> India with basically the same skill sets?
Because they are cheaper. However, most companies would rather
employ able Americans than less able foreigners I suppose.
Overseas communication just isn't as good as telling your employee
what he's to do.
> It's true that I earned appx. $20/hr at my previous major programming
> job, which might be considered "overpriced" (when compared to an
> Indian's price), but during this recession I've offered to work at the
> Federal minimum wage, so my own price isn't "overpriced", unless you
> consider even the Federal minimum wage to be "overpriced" currently.
> To clarify the issue, please tell me how much $/hour you consider to be
> overpriced for software development currently.
I'd say price always depends on what benefits the "product"
provides. If you are able to do a challenging job (look at a job
site, like monster.com; I'm sure there are lots of jobs), they'll
probably pay you decently (maybe not as much as they used to in
2000). If you apply for a more beginner's job, they'll pay you less.
> I've accumulated at least 22 years computer programming experience,
> which I think is quite enough to qualify for a minimum wage programming
> job (and in a better economy, a programming job at higher than minimum
> wage). While unemployed I've taught myself new languages/methodology
> (CL, HTML, CGI) on top of what I had before (earlier versions of Lisp,
> Algol, Fortran, various assembly languages, just a little C), and I've
> taken classes to learn some more languages (more C, VB, Java, C++, more
> HTML). Is there something you consdider essential for qualifying for a
> computer-programming job, which I haven't mentioned?
(I searched for "Java"; there's surely better jobs around, too)
http://jobsearch.monster.com/jobsearch.asp?q=java&cn=&sort=rv&vw=b&cy=US&re=14&brd=1%2C1862%2C1863
How about you develop the skill set they want? Yes, that means
Java, it sure sucks, but that way you find jobs. I looked at
some, most seem to require 3-5 years experience with those
technologies (which would be hard for a student like me...), but
not all of them. One I looked at pays $35-45/h.
Why in the world do you seek to desperately sell yourself for $5/h???
> I agree, in general. Let me make my earlier comments more specific:
> When the customer is in the USA and speaks only English, and that
> customer needs customer support, it's important that the person at the
> customer support phoneline can speak English well. Likewise if the
> American-English customer is trying to read documentation, it's
> important that the documentation be written by somebody who is capable
> of writing decent English. Most Indians don't qualify for either good
> spoken English nor written English in the view of the American-English
> customer.
I received an email from Amazon's service once, signed with an
Indian-looking name. It wasn't a canned response, but adapted to
my problem, and good English. Pronunciation might be worse (in my
experience it often is).
> For other customers, different customer-support people may be
> more appropriate. Companies should match the language of the customer
> to the language of documentation and customer support. Companies should
> *not* have Indians with strong accent handling all customers without
> regard to the accent-mismatch problem.
Does any company? Anyway, for programming (your job objective, it
seems), Indians are probably just as good as Americans, if their
skill sets are similar.
> By the way, when I tried to apply for customer-support jobs, I was
> denied consideration because my background is programming and the
> companies prefer people with little or no programmign experience but
> lots of human relations experience.
Sure. If you want to go into human relations, expect to start at
the bottom of the hierarchy again.
--
No man is good enough to govern another man without that other's
consent. -- Abraham Lincoln
From: Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t
Subject: Re: [OT] can anyone offer Lisp job?
Date:
Message-ID: <REM-2005apr24-003@Yahoo.Com>
> From: Ulrich Hobelmann <···········@web.de>
> > So why do companies in the USA ignore potential employees in the USA,
> > even those who have adequate skill sets, and choose to hire those in
> > India with basically the same skill sets?
> Because they are cheaper.
How much cheaper? Do people in India produce computer software for less
than the legal minimum wage in the USA? Does anybody have actual data
about what hourly pay rate the Indians charge for computer programming?
> However, most companies would rather employ able Americans than less
> able foreigners I suppose.
That statement combines two factors (ability, localness), making it
difficult to see which factor dominates.
> Overseas communication just isn't as good as telling your employee
> what he's to do.
So here I am in the SouthBay (between Palo Alto and San Jose), local to
a lot of companies that might need software written for them.
> If you are able to do a challenging job (look at a job site, like
> monster.com; I'm sure there are lots of jobs), they'll probably pay you
> decently (maybe not as much as they used to in 2000).
Well in 2000 they paid me zero, nada, so what you wrote above is pretty
much meaningless to me.
> If you apply for a more beginner's job, they'll pay you less.
I can't afford to work for less than zero.
> http://jobsearch.monster.com/jobsearch.asp?q=java&cn=&sort=rv&vw=b&cy=US&re=14&brd=1%2C1862%2C1863
US-CA-Anywhere in California-Java, J2EE, C++ developer
Java, JDBC, C, HTML, SQL, UNIX -- Some/moderate experience
J2EE, JSP Servlets, EJB -- Just started recently
C++ -- Just a little experience
Design Patters -- Obviously a typo, and this is not really a specific skill
LDAP, JavaScript, XML, XSLT, SVG, SOAP, JUnit, Oracle, DB2 -- No exp yet
Struts, Websphere 5 -- Never heard of these, don't know what they are
Should I apply for that job?
> How about you develop the skill set they want? Yes, that means Java,
> it sure sucks, but that way you find jobs.
Java's not really that bad. It's much slower to develop than Lisp,
because you need to spend 15-20 seconds waiting for the jvm to load
every time you want to see if one new line of code works correctly, but
at least I can express directly what I want to do in a natural way in
Java almost as well as in Lisp, most of the time anyway.
> Why in the world do you seek to desperately sell yourself for $5/h???
Because nobody has been willing to hire me at the rate I used to work
for (appx. $20/hr), nor for the going rate for "entry level" in the
industry ($30/hr), nor for the lowest rate I'd be eager to accept
during a recession ($10/hr), because they'd rather hire Indians for
less than any of those figures, and I need to compete with the Indians
or just give up ever finding a job. By the way, does anyone really know
what the hourly rate in US$ is paid to Indians for software programming
work?
Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t wrote:
>>http://jobsearch.monster.com/jobsearch.asp?q=java&cn=&sort=rv&vw=b&cy=US&re=14&brd=1%2C1862%2C1863
>
> US-CA-Anywhere in California-Java, J2EE, C++ developer
> Java, JDBC, C, HTML, SQL, UNIX -- Some/moderate experience
> J2EE, JSP Servlets, EJB -- Just started recently
Work on it.
> C++ -- Just a little experience
Write some more, if you want to look for jobs there.
> Design Patters -- Obviously a typo, and this is not really a specific skill
It means that you can code and recognize design patterns (of the
Gang of Four) and design OO applications in a way that uses them,
I suppose. This should be part of general OO or Java knowledge.
> LDAP, JavaScript, XML, XSLT, SVG, SOAP, JUnit, Oracle, DB2 -- No exp yet
I would definitely do some toying around with XML, maybe
technologies that use XML, just so you know how to deal with it.
I guess 60+% of new jobs want XML.
> Struts, Websphere 5 -- Never heard of these, don't know what they are
> Should I apply for that job?
I think Websphere is something like J2EE, but from IBM. Struts is
some kind of Java library for web servers (?), and open source.
If you want to do that kind of thing, set up your own web server
and try it out. AFAIK it's open source.
>>Why in the world do you seek to desperately sell yourself for $5/h???
>
>
> Because nobody has been willing to hire me at the rate I used to work
> for (appx. $20/hr), nor for the going rate for "entry level" in the
> industry ($30/hr), nor for the lowest rate I'd be eager to accept
> during a recession ($10/hr), because they'd rather hire Indians for
> less than any of those figures, and I need to compete with the Indians
> or just give up ever finding a job. By the way, does anyone really know
> what the hourly rate in US$ is paid to Indians for software programming
> work?
No, because you have not enough experience with XML, J2EE, Design
Patterns and that kind of stuff. Learn that stuff and get the
full wage instead of minimum wage peanuts.
--
No man is good enough to govern another man without that other's
consent. -- Abraham Lincoln
From: Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t
Subject: Re: [OT] can anyone offer Lisp job?
Date:
Message-ID: <REM-2005apr27-003@Yahoo.Com>
> From: Ulrich Hobelmann <···········@web.de>
> > J2EE, JSP Servlets, EJB -- Just started recently
> Work on it.
Unfortunately I'm at a few roadblocks, and the class instructor doesn't
know anything about Linux so he can't help me past the roadblocks.
- Why doesn't the Application Client work, even though the JSP works?
- When I change the source for the business-method bean, and re-compile
it, deploytool claims nothing had changed and refuses to update the JAR
file to contain the changed class file, and when I try to delete the
class from the JAR so I can put the new one back in it says there's a
dependency so I can't do that.
- Several Cloudscape files are on the disk, but I can't find any GUI
application that would allow me to create a Cloudscape database. I
can't even find out whether it's there somewhere in the J2EE download I
installed or not.
> > C++ -- Just a little experience
> Write some more, if you want to look for jobs there.
Compared to Lisp or Java, C++ totally sucks (except it compiles faster
than Java). I have no incentive to ever again write a C++ program
unless somebody pays me to do it.
> I would definitely do some toying around with XML, maybe
> technologies that use XML, just so you know how to deal with it.
> I guess 60+% of new jobs want XML.
Several months ago after I had read the VB/.NET book about XML, I
posted with suggestions of stuff I might do, asking for opinion,
something like that, it was several months ago, anyway nobody expressed
any interest in my doing anything particular with XML, so I lost
interest in volunteering on anything like that. I'd still like to work
on some XML appliation, if anybody showed any specific interest.
> I think Websphere is something like J2EE, but from IBM. Struts is
> some kind of Java library for web servers (?), and open source.
> If you want to do that kind of thing, set up your own web server
> and try it out. AFAIK it's open source.
I don't have any money for facilities for any kind of
network-accessible server. The best I could do is set up a server on my
RedHat/GNOME Linux laptop that is accessible only from localhost, and
currently I'm pretty busy trying to get J2EE working in that mode.
> you have not enough experience with XML, J2EE, Design Patterns and
> that kind of stuff.
Do you know of any free plain-USASCII-text version of the Design
Patterns book on the Web, so that I might be able to view it from here?
Do you know anybody familiar with Linux who would help me get past the
current roadblocks so that I can make progress on J2EE?
·······@Yahoo.Com (Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t) writes:
> The best I could do is set up a server on my
> RedHat/GNOME Linux laptop that is accessible only from localhost
Alternatively you could use Xen to install run multiple installations
of linux simultaneously on your box and set up virtual networks between them.
You could then use one of the instances to host the server.
From: Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t
Subject: Re: [OT] can anyone offer Lisp job?
Date:
Message-ID: <REM-2005aug12-006@Yahoo.Com>
> From: Ulrich Hobelmann <···········@web.de>
> http://www.dofactory.com/Patterns/Patterns.aspx
Linkname: Design Patterns: Abstract Factory
URL: http://www.dofactory.com/Patterns/PatternAbstract.aspx
Definition
[pixel.gif] Provide an interface for creating families of related or
dependent objects without specifying their concrete classes.
[552092_4.jpg]
Frequency of use: [use_medium_high.gif] medium high [up.gif]
The author doesn't mean interface in the Java sense, right? He means an
ordinary function ("static method" in Java-jargon) which picks one of
several constructors in different classes to call, right? The
definition doesn't say anything like that, it rather beats around the
bush as to what is actually meant. There's such a big difference
between what he said and what I guessed he meant that I don't even know
if I've guessed correctly what the author means.
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UML class diagram
[abstract.gif]
That isn't exactly meaningful text.
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Participants
[pixel.gif] The classes and/or objects participating in this
pattern are:
Most of that isn't meaningful text either, only at the very end there.
* AbstractFactory (ContinentFactory)
+ declares an interface for operations that create abstract
products
* ConcreteFactory (AfricaFactory, AmericaFactory)
+ implements the operations to create concrete product objects
Oh, so he really does mean interface or abstract class at the top. But
you can't call that, you have to call one of the implementation
classes, one of the concrete factories. Given that you don't have an
object of any concrete factory class at the start, you can't use
polymorphism (runtime sub-class selection) to hold such an object in an
abstract factory variable and then call it to do the right thing with
the appropriate sub-class (implementation, concrete factory), so I
don't see the value of having the abstract factory. What's wrong with
just having a toplevel concrete factory that takes parameters telling
what kind of animal to create? If there is hierarchial organization of
constructors, I see no disadvantage to dispatching on a chain of
keyword parameters from the top level of the hierarchy down to the
individual constructor.
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Sample code in C# [download.gif] download C# source code zip file
More gibberish. I thought you said this document would be text??
I looked at some more pages in that section, but they weren't very
enlightening. They were too vaguely worded for me to understand what
point the author was getting at.
Linkname: Design Patterns: Singleton
URL: http://www.dofactory.com/Patterns/PatternSingleton.aspx
if( instance == null )
instance = new Singleton();
return instance;
I've written that kind of code many times, didn't need somebody to call
it a "design pattern" to figure out how to write a cache for something
that is expensive to build but cheap to fetch from the cache. I
typically daisy-chain the dataflow of these caching operations. For
example, I have one singleton/cache for the entire contents of a large
disk file loaded into memory as a pointy structure, so I don't have to
load it at program-startup time, only when first used, but then I never
have to load it again during the same execution environment that
typically lasts several hours. Then I have another singleton/cache for
the compilation of that data into a more quickly searchable form. If
the first singleton has already been called, then the second singleton
just compiles the already-loaded data. If the second singleton is
called first, the data is first loaded and cached then compiled and
cached.
Linkname: Design Patterns: Iterator
URL: http://www.dofactory.com/Patterns/PatternIterator.aspx
// "Iterator"
abstract class Iterator
{
// Methods
public abstract object First();
public abstract object Next();
public abstract bool IsDone();
public abstract object CurrentItem();
}
The "IsDone" method is in my opinion a serious methodology mistake.
It's better to include an EndOfFileValue as parameter to Next, and then
wait until Next actually runs past EOF before you know whether there
were more or not, because in many situations such as a filter around an
inner iterator you really can't know ahead of time whether the next
call to Next will hit EOF or find an item first. Iterator as defined
with IsDone instead of EndOfFileValue is too restrictive to be of
general use, IMO.
Also, why do you need the "First" method? The way I always do
iterators, at the time you construct the iterator (or enumeration as
it's also called, in Java the two are slightly different but
generically they are synonyms, and in fact the spec here coresponds to
Java Enumeration not Iterator) it's sitting at a position just before
the first element, so that calling Next will return that first element.
In this way you don't need a first-time flag in the calling software
where it calls First the first time but calls Next all times after
that, it just always calls Next from the very beginning after the
iterator has been built.
I don't like the "CurrentItem" at all, because in the case where First
or Next hasn't yet been called, it's an error to call CurrentItem, and
in all other cases the calling program knows what value it got and
doesn't need to ask for it a second time. If the programmer knows
he/she is going to refer to the same element a second time, he/she
should be smart enough to store it in a local variable the first time
and then just check the value of that variable again as needed.
Furthermore, after EOF has been reached, again CurrentItem won't be
able to return anything correct. So just flush that method that's more
trouble than it's worth.
abstract class Iterator
{
// Methods
public abstract object Next(Object EofValue);
}
MyIterator itr = myCollection.getMyIterator(); // MyIterator has only 1 method
String eofval = new String("fin"); // New to avoid canonical "fin"
Object current = null;
while (true) {
current = itr.Next(eofval);
if (current == eofval) break;
// do something with current
// do something else with the same current
}
I haven't tested that Java code, hope I didn't mess it up.
Anyway, thanks for showing me the WebSite, although as it turns out
most of the patterns are either too ambiguous for me to understand or
something I already know better.
> Another page is
> http://www.research.umbc.edu/~tarr/dp/fall00/cs491.html
The first table of contents is all links to PDFs which I have no way to
view over VT100 dialup into Unix shell.
The second table of contents points to actual plaintext tutorials:
Linkname: Keeping Objects In Sync
URL:
http://java.sun.com/developer/technicalArticles/Programming/Kee
pObjectsInSync/index.html
A common scenario for using the Observer pattern involves a subject
that has multiple views.
Actually even if it has only one view in any given program, it's useful
to use the Observer/Observable pattern to separate each individual kind
of view and each different data model, so you write V + M bunches of
code, with a little set-up code in each application to get v-of-V
talking to m-of-M, instead of V*M versions of intertwined code. The
trick is to abstract out a good place to draw the boundary between the
view and the model and a good way to describe that boundary such that
all views and all models can talk the same interface.
Ideally the interface should be parameterized sufficiently that each
model can transmit an object specifying what needs to be displayed, and
each view can receive that specification object and automatically
allocate sufficient UI resources to display all the information, but
that may be too much to ask.
> public class java.util.Observable
IMO that's not good, it should be an interface instead of a class.
For example, if you have a class that maintains a model of a banquet
table, complete with multiple settings, with each setting having both a
table setting and a chair-on-floor aspect, with each table setting
having a plate and various utensils and beverage containers, then it
seems the primary class hierarchy should be the stuff about settings,
with the fact that the dinner table happens to be observable just as an
interface not a superclass.
So I suppose you have to defeat the poor Java design by having
ObservableBanquetTable which is a sub-class of Observable but which has
a member variable pointing to an object of the BanquetTable class? But
then how is an object of class BanquetTable supposed to know that it's
supposed to call the ObservableBanquetTable.notifyObservers method
every time it performs some internal change operation? Maybe require
that all *requests* for changes pass through the ObservableBanquetTable
object in such a way that after return it knows which calls caused
actual changes to occur hence need to call this.notifyObservers ?
So every method signature in BanquetTable must be duplicated as a
wrapper method in ObservableBanquetTable, sigh.
Hmm, I spoke too soon. That was the only design pattern that has any
legible text explanation. All the others items in the second table of
contents are either just stubs that don't point to anything, or are
other topics beyond the design patterns, such as the undo/redo
discussion that only mentions the Command design pattern.
> Google is your friend as usual.
Sometimes, sometimes not, and never in the real sense of "friend" as
somebody who would get out of bed and get dressed at 4AM to come over
here and pick me up to take me to the emergency room.
> No man is good enough to govern another man without that other's
> consent. -- Abraham Lincoln
That quote is a bit outdated, considering that at the time it meant
strictly MEN, not WOMEN, to have suffrage. You don't really want to go
back to his exact opinion, do you?
Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t wrote:
>> From: Ulrich Hobelmann <···········@web.de>
>> http://www.dofactory.com/Patterns/Patterns.aspx
>
> Linkname: Design Patterns: Abstract Factory
> URL: http://www.dofactory.com/Patterns/PatternAbstract.aspx
> Definition
> [pixel.gif] Provide an interface for creating families of related or
> dependent objects without specifying their concrete classes.
> [552092_4.jpg]
> Frequency of use: [use_medium_high.gif] medium high [up.gif]
Seriously, why don't you just get a browser like everybody else?
There's Mozilla, Links, Links+, and a couple of small browsers that at
least display images... If Mozilla is too big for your machine, try
Links or some small GTk browser.
>> No man is good enough to govern another man without that other's
>> consent. -- Abraham Lincoln
>
> That quote is a bit outdated, considering that at the time it meant
> strictly MEN, not WOMEN, to have suffrage. You don't really want to go
> back to his exact opinion, do you?
No, but the quote applies quite well to today's society, IMHO, if you
include women. That in the past women weren't considered equal members
of society is not really my problem today.
--
I believe in Karma. That means I can do bad things to people
all day long and I assume they deserve it.
Dogbert
·······@Yahoo.Com (Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t) wrote:
> How much cheaper? Do people in India produce computer software for
> less than the legal minimum wage in the USA? Does anybody have actual
> data about what hourly pay rate the Indians charge for computer
> programming?
You can search Google, for example with theses search:
http://www.google.de/search?q=indian+%22software+developer%22+%22per+hour%22+rate
On the first result page you see wages from $3.50 to $8.00.
> I can't afford to work for less than zero.
>
>> http://jobsearch.monster.com/jobsearch.asp?q=java&cn=&sort=rv&vw=b&cy=
>> US&re=14&brd=1%2C1862%2C1863
> US-CA-Anywhere in California-Java, J2EE, C++ developer
> Java, JDBC, C, HTML, SQL, UNIX -- Some/moderate experience
> J2EE, JSP Servlets, EJB -- Just started recently
> C++ -- Just a little experience
> Design Patters -- Obviously a typo, and this is not really a
> specific skill LDAP, JavaScript, XML, XSLT, SVG, SOAP, JUnit,
> Oracle, DB2 -- No exp yet Struts, Websphere 5 -- Never heard of
> these, don't know what they are
have you tried Google, again? Searching for "struts" shows an
explanation at the first link.
> Because nobody has been willing to hire me at the rate I used to work
> for (appx. $20/hr),
This is not the fault of your competitors, but your fault. All your
behaviour looks like you don't want a job. And on your webpage
you feel sorry for yourself, showing how you wrote some "Hello World!"
programs. Nobody wants to hire such a man. And using antique methods for
surfing the web, not able to install a new OS, is the icing on the cake.
As told to you earlier, try to feel like someone who wants to employ
you: If I'll employ Robert, can he do the job, increasing the profit of
my company? Has he done good jobs in other companies? Do I need to
employee another one to setup the OS for Robert and training him how
to surf the web without Lynx?
--
Frank Bu�, ··@frank-buss.de
http://www.frank-buss.de, http://www.it4-systems.de
·······@Yahoo.Com (Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t) writes:
> Struts, Websphere 5 -- Never heard of these, don't know what they are
Struts is a popular opensource MVC implementation used for web applications.
It uses servlets and JSP.
·······@Yahoo.Com (Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t) writes:
> Most Indians don't qualify for either good
> spoken English nor written English in the view of the American-English
> customer.
Much of the customer support in Australia is outsourced to India.
On the occassions that I have had to interact with the Indian customer
support personnel, I had absolutely no problems with their English.
Slightly offtopic, but still pertinent is the fact
that I know of many Indians who teach English in Canada, the US and Australia.
·······@Yahoo.Com (Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t) writes:
> It's true that I earned appx. $20/hr at my previous major programming
> job,
> I've accumulated at least 22 years computer programming experience
Why doesnt your web page have this information ?
To my casual glance , what stood out was your statement that you had
written Hello World programs in multiple languages in 2002.
That would be enough to make any potential employer lose interest.
As if that was not damaging enough, you then go on to give
details of your financial crisis.
The coup de grace is your statement that you might become "homeless
and dead".
From: Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t
Subject: Re: [OT] can anyone offer Lisp job?
Date:
Message-ID: <REM-2005apr25-003@Yahoo.Com>
> From: israel <······@bigpond.net.au>
> > I've accumulated at least 22 years computer programming experience
> Why doesnt your web page have this information ?
Because whenever I've mentionned that to anyone they've told me no
employer wants anyone with that much experience because (1) they fear
any such employee would be asking over $100/hr which the employer can't
afford, and (2) so many years of experience pegs me as over-40 which
nobody wants to hire nowadays, and (3) an employer wants only 5-10
years experience, and any more than 10 years is *never* an advantage,
so given the reasons not to include it, and lack of any reason to
include it, it's best to leave it out. In fact even when I show
somebody the many projects I've programmed, even without citing the
number of years, still the person says they can't afford me because I'd
ask too high a wage.
> To my casual glance , what stood out was your statement that you had
> written Hello World programs in multiple languages in 2002.
So you looked at the earliest item in the "recent accomplishments"
list, and didn't bother to look further? I've updated the WebPage just
today to hide that one item in another file, where you have to click on
it to see it, so perhaps now it won't stand out as before? What do you
think of that part of the WebSite now?
> The coup de grace is your statement that you might become "homeless
> and dead".
That was a serious possibility at the time I created that WebSite. I
was only a few months away from maxing out my credit cards just to pay
the rent where I lived at the time, and as of February this year I
wouldn't have been able to borrow any more to pay the rent and I truly
would have been evicted and homeless about two months later. But
subsidized housing finally accepted me at the end of January, so I now
can afford the rent here, so for the moment it seems I won't become
homeless after all.
So I guess I should fix that particular item in the WebSite ... done.
Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t wrote:
> Because whenever I've mentionned that to anyone they've told me no
> employer wants anyone with that much experience because (1) they fear
> any such employee would be asking over $100/hr which the employer can't
> afford,
I'm sure they would discuss that with you. No *programmer* would
ask for $100/h, unless it's called "consulting". Companies aren't
afraid of you asking too much. If you do, they might just not
hire you, but with 20+y experience, I'd certainly ask for $30 or
more, depending on the job.
> and (2) so many years of experience pegs me as over-40 which
> nobody wants to hire nowadays,
Don't know if that is true. It doesn't make sense to me, since
someone over 40 is likely more productive than a fresh graduate,
knows the ins and outs. Since most companies probably only give
you short (five years or less) contracts, what's the problem with age?
> and (3) an employer wants only 5-10
> years experience, and any more than 10 years is *never* an advantage,
> so given the reasons not to include it, and lack of any reason to
> include it, it's best to leave it out. In fact even when I show
> somebody the many projects I've programmed, even without citing the
> number of years, still the person says they can't afford me because I'd
> ask too high a wage.
Then don't ask too high a wage. It's all mutual agreement when
you make a contract. If either party doesn't accept, then no.
>
>>To my casual glance , what stood out was your statement that you had
>>written Hello World programs in multiple languages in 2002.
>
>
> So you looked at the earliest item in the "recent accomplishments"
> list, and didn't bother to look further? I've updated the WebPage just
> today to hide that one item in another file, where you have to click on
> it to see it, so perhaps now it won't stand out as before? What do you
> think of that part of the WebSite now?
Don't hide the hello world, just delete it. *Everybody* writes
hello world, nobody wants to read about that, though. It's
totally irrelevant.
The website still sucks badly. Nobody cares if it fits a
cellphone screen. It looks bad, the "please hire me!" come across
somewhat pathetic, too.
Why not get a nice design that will actually look good in MS IE
and Mozilla (probably 97% of browsers used to read your website),
and put up a nice slogan, like "i'm an experienced programmer in
search for work. skilled in blablabla, click here for my resume" ??
>
>>The coup de grace is your statement that you might become "homeless
>>and dead".
>
>
> That was a serious possibility at the time I created that WebSite. I
> was only a few months away from maxing out my credit cards just to pay
> the rent where I lived at the time, and as of February this year I
> wouldn't have been able to borrow any more to pay the rent and I truly
> would have been evicted and homeless about two months later. But
> subsidized housing finally accepted me at the end of January, so I now
> can afford the rent here, so for the moment it seems I won't become
> homeless after all.
Good to hear that. But seriously. Look at other people's
websites, at their resumes. Read something about what a resume
should be like. You might want to choose a functional resume that
highlights your skills and the benefits hiring you would give the
employer, instead of the "i did this in that in that year",
especially since you didn't do anything for years.
> So I guess I should fix that particular item in the WebSite ... done.
Fix the website, please... (better kill it and start anew)
A company might want you to write web pages and maybe server-side
applications. They certainly wouldn't want their page to look
*anything* like yours!
--
No man is good enough to govern another man without that other's
consent. -- Abraham Lincoln
Ulrich Hobelmann <···········@web.de> writes:
> [...]
> Fix the website, please... (better kill it and start anew)
>
> A company might want you to write web pages and maybe server-side
> applications. They certainly wouldn't want their page to look
> *anything* like yours!
Robert, something worthwhile showing would be how you'd generate both
nice looking pages for normal browsers and light pages for small
screens (that, by the way look great on the 320x320 screen of my
Palm), from the _same_ _source_. Bonus if your web site selects
automatically which page to send depending on the browser as google
does it (with an option to still get the "full" page on the small
screen.
Another example of a "demo" application that allowed a friend of mine
to get a job (even jobs) without even a resume see:
http://aleph3d.free.fr/
The web site is not the "demo" of his abilities, the application is.
And while this web site requires some more scrolling on my small Palm
screen, it's still viewable for it's standard HTML, relying on NO
browser specific feature.
--
__Pascal Bourguignon__ http://www.informatimago.com/
Cats meow out of angst
"Thumbs! If only we had thumbs!
We could break so much!"
Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t wrote:
> Summary: That site needs further work before it'll truly be usable
> nicely on all browsers as claimed on the first page, and it needs work
> on fixing the English mistakes. One good thing, it doesn't require
> javascript or https.
What's wrong with https, that is, http over SSL? I think this is
necessary for secure connections, which you might want to have
with some servers. Everything that sends cookies and other data
(so any forum site, banking sites, other web applications)...
--
No man is good enough to govern another man without that other's
consent. -- Abraham Lincoln
From: Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t
Subject: Re: [OT] can anyone offer Lisp job?
Date:
Message-ID: <REM-2005jul27-029@Yahoo.Com>
> From: Ulrich Hobelmann <···········@web.de>
> What's wrong with https, that is, http over SSL?
Whenever I click on such a link, I get two (2) separate alerts about
lynx unable to get SSL certificate, which clearly shows it's not doing
what it should to establish a secure connection.
> I think this is necessary for secure connections, which you might
> want to have with some servers. Everything that sends cookies and
> other data (so any forum site, banking sites, other web
> applications).
Everything I transmit to my Unix shell account is plain-text over VT100
link. Regardless of whether it's encrypted or not from the shell
machine to the server, it's plain text all the way from my home
computer through the dialup port and TELNET link to shell machine and
through standard input to Lynx, which means anybody with admin
priviledges on the shell machine can view what I'm transmitting and
what I'm receiving. I have no choice but to pass Yahoo! Mail passwords
and the like over this insecure dialup, but there's no way you can
convince me it's reasonble to pass banking account numbers and PINs
etc. that way!!
·······@Yahoo.Com (Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t) writes:
>> From: Ulrich Hobelmann <···········@web.de>
>> What's wrong with https, that is, http over SSL?
>
> Whenever I click on such a link, I get two (2) separate alerts about
> lynx unable to get SSL certificate, which clearly shows it's not doing
> what it should to establish a secure connection.
>
>> I think this is necessary for secure connections, which you might
>> want to have with some servers. Everything that sends cookies and
>> other data (so any forum site, banking sites, other web
>> applications).
>
> Everything I transmit to my Unix shell account is plain-text over VT100
> link. Regardless of whether it's encrypted or not from the shell
> machine to the server, it's plain text all the way from my home
> computer through the dialup port and TELNET link to shell machine and
> through standard input to Lynx, which means anybody with admin
> priviledges on the shell machine can view what I'm transmitting and
> what I'm receiving. I have no choice but to pass Yahoo! Mail passwords
> and the like over this insecure dialup, but there's no way you can
> convince me it's reasonble to pass banking account numbers and PINs
> etc. that way!!
Why don't you use ssh?
If your server doesn't provide ssh, then change the server.
There are a lot of free or cheap unix account available. Seach the web.
--
__Pascal Bourguignon__ http://www.informatimago.com/
In deep sleep hear sound,
Cat vomit hairball somewhere.
Will find in morning.
·······@Yahoo.Com (Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t) writes:
> > From: Ulrich Hobelmann <···········@web.de>
> > What's wrong with https, that is, http over SSL?
>
> Whenever I click on such a link, I get two (2) separate alerts about
> lynx unable to get SSL certificate, which clearly shows it's not doing
> what it should to establish a secure connection.
Is your lynx built with SSL support?
> Everything I transmit to my Unix shell account is plain-text over VT100
> link. Regardless of whether it's encrypted or not from the shell
> machine to the server, it's plain text all the way from my home
> computer through the dialup port and TELNET link to shell machine and
> through standard input to Lynx, which means anybody with admin
> priviledges on the shell machine can view what I'm transmitting and
> what I'm receiving. I have no choice but to pass Yahoo! Mail passwords
> and the like over this insecure dialup, but there's no way you can
> convince me it's reasonble to pass banking account numbers and PINs
> etc. that way!!
Then don't use telnet - use ssh instead. If the shell account server
doesn't support ssh, find a new provider as anyone still only
providing telnet on an internet connected system allowing shell
login has no clue what they are doing.
Note also that vt100 has nothing to do with your link - its a terminal
communication protocol which just controls low level terminal control,
such as cursor positioning etc.
If you can telnet to a remote system, you can also just access the web
directly from your home machine - there is no need to first telnet to
the shell account and then run lynx. If yu cannot get lynx to work
with SSL, try w3m built with SSL support - it is a fast reliable text
editor with support for frames etc.
--
Tim Cross
The e-mail address on this message is FALSE (obviously!). My real e-mail is
to a company in Australia called rapttech and my login is tcross - if you
really need to send mail, you should be able to work it out!
On 28 Jul 2005 20:23:03 +1000, Tim X <····@spamto.devnul.com> wrote:
> If you can telnet to a remote system, you can also just access the web
> directly from your home machine - there is no need to first telnet to
> the shell account and then run lynx.
I have a web app running at a client site, where apache limits access
to the local network. So I usually ssh into the site and use lynx to
access the web app. Reconfiguring apache to allow access to my dynamically
allocate IP address is error prone.
s.
"Stefan Schmiedl" <·@xss.de> writes:
> On 28 Jul 2005 20:23:03 +1000, Tim X <····@spamto.devnul.com> wrote:
>
> > If you can telnet to a remote system, you can also just access the web
> > directly from your home machine - there is no need to first telnet to
> > the shell account and then run lynx.
>
> I have a web app running at a client site, where apache limits access
> to the local network. So I usually ssh into the site and use lynx to
> access the web app. Reconfiguring apache to allow access to my dynamically
> allocate IP address is error prone.
>
> s.
There are always exception. However, the original poster was talking
about having to telnet to a unix account and then run lynx to access
web sites on the Internet, not on an Intranet and expressing concern
about the fact traffic between his home machine and the remote unix
account was unencrypted even if he used a secure web session. My point
was that he should be using ssh to connect to the unix box, but that I
also didn't understand why he was even doing that - if he has telnet,
he has TCP/IP connectivity, which means he should be able to browse
directly from his home machine. Gvoing from a dial-up connection to a
remote unix shell account and then browsing via lynx is what we all
had to do years ago before PPP was readily available and we used
things like Kermit. However, as he is using telnet, he must have PPP
as telnet is a TCP/IP based protocol, just like HTTP.
Tim
--
Tim Cross
The e-mail address on this message is FALSE (obviously!). My real e-mail is
to a company in Australia called rapttech and my login is tcross - if you
really need to send mail, you should be able to work it out!
Tim X wrote:
> account was unencrypted even if he used a secure web session. My point
> was that he should be using ssh to connect to the unix box, but that I
> also didn't understand why he was even doing that - if he has telnet,
> he has TCP/IP connectivity, which means he should be able to browse
Not sure, but aren't VT100s simply connected via telnet? That
means they can't do ssh, nor raw TCP, because they don't have any
processing capability, or even an operating system.
Just like an X11 terminal. They can't do anything else, either
(unless you'd change the firmware).
> directly from his home machine. Gvoing from a dial-up connection to a
> remote unix shell account and then browsing via lynx is what we all
> had to do years ago before PPP was readily available and we used
> things like Kermit. However, as he is using telnet, he must have PPP
> as telnet is a TCP/IP based protocol, just like HTTP.
Well, no. Doesn't telnet predate TCP, just like FTP and friends?
I think it's raw characters (and control characters) over some line.
--
XML is a prime example of retarded innovation.
-- Erik Meijer and Peter Drayton, Microsoft Corporation
Ulrich Hobelmann <···········@web.de> wrote:
>Not sure, but aren't VT100s simply connected via telnet? That
>means they can't do ssh, nor raw TCP, because they don't have any
>processing capability, or even an operating system.
They are connected via a serial line, which goes directly into the
machine, or a modem.
mkb.
Ulrich Hobelmann wrote:
> Not sure, but aren't VT100s simply connected via telnet?
from what i remember, they are connected via a simple serial line (RS232)
> ...
> Well, no. Doesn't telnet predate TCP, just like FTP and friends? I
> think it's raw characters (and control characters) over some line.
no. telnet is a TCP/IP protocol that lets you connect to a remote
machine just as if you were connected via a serial line
hs
Ulrich Hobelmann <···········@web.de> writes:
> Tim X wrote:
> > account was unencrypted even if he used a secure web session. My point
> > was that he should be using ssh to connect to the unix box, but that I
> > also didn't understand why he was even doing that - if he has telnet,
> > he has TCP/IP connectivity, which means he should be able to browse
>
> Not sure, but aren't VT100s simply connected via telnet? That means
> they can't do ssh, nor raw TCP, because they don't have any processing
> capability, or even an operating system.
>
Normally a VT100 terminal is connected directly via
a serial line and communicattes via a simple low level tty protocol
through a "getty" style process. The VT100 protocol defines basic
screen I/O features/operations i.e. scrolling, rows/columns, character
positions, keyboard features like erase, keyboard leds etc. It
consists of control codes (I think it was the first ANSI compliant
terminal - or at least one of the first).
The VT100 terminal knows nothing about networking and has no
understanding of TCP/IP and therefore cannot use telnet or any other
TCP/IP based protocol.
While you can connect via a modem, normally you need some other piece
of software to handle the lower level modem communications
(i.e. dialing the modem, setting parity/stop bits etc). The standard
VT100 terminal didn't support this, though there were some 'terminals'
which did include extensions to the terminal itself that facilitated
modem based communications - but this was not part of the VT100
protocol. This type of connection was relatively uncommon, especially
after the advent of the PC (keeping in mind that a VT100 terminal is
not much more sophisticated than a 'dumb' terminal with respect to how
it communicated - it really just adds addressable character cells on a
VDU).
The more common setup is a PC running something like kermit to manage
the link and communicate witht he local modem. However, this is still
pretty much the same level of communication (with slightly easier
modem control and the ability to upload/download files etc). This sort
of communication can be more secure if the modemm is connected
directly to the PC as there is no IP network communicaton. This type
of communication is pretty rare these days as most people use PPP or
possibly SLIP. The PPP protocol provides the basic TCP/IP networking
infrastructure you need to run protocols like telnet, ssh, http
etc. To use any TCP/IP protocol, the two 'ends' both need IP
addresses. A VT100 terminal does not have an IP address.
Tim
--
Tim Cross
The e-mail address on this message is FALSE (obviously!). My real e-mail is
to a company in Australia called rapttech and my login is tcross - if you
really need to send mail, you should be able to work it out!
On 2005-07-29 19:52:06 -0400, "Stefan Schmiedl" <·@xss.de> said:
> On 28 Jul 2005 20:23:03 +1000, Tim X <····@spamto.devnul.com> wrote:
>
>> If you can telnet to a remote system, you can also just access the web
>> directly from your home machine - there is no need to first telnet to
>> the shell account and then run lynx.
>
> I have a web app running at a client site, where apache limits access
> to the local network. So I usually ssh into the site and use lynx to
> access the web app. Reconfiguring apache to allow access to my dynamically
> allocate IP address is error prone.
Sounds like you want ssh tunneling. If the webapp runs on the machine
you ssh to, do this instead:
$ ssh -L 8080:web-app-host:80 client-host
Then hit localhost:8080 in a browser of your choice and you get the webapp.
Zac
Zachery Bir <····@urbanape.com> wrote:
+---------------
| "Stefan Schmiedl" <·@xss.de> said:
| > I have a web app running at a client site, where apache limits access
| > to the local network. So I usually ssh into the site and use lynx to
| > access the web app. Reconfiguring apache to allow access to my dynamically
| > allocate IP address is error prone.
|
| Sounds like you want ssh tunneling. If the webapp runs on the machine
| you ssh to, do this instead:
| $ ssh -L 8080:web-app-host:80 client-host
| Then hit localhost:8080 in a browser of your choice and you get the webapp.
+---------------
Also note that OpenSSH 2.x provides the "-D port" option, which
allows the SSH client to act as a SOCKS proxy forwarding to the
remote location. This can be useful when you want to look at the
world (the Internet) from the remote system's point of view. E.g.:
$ ssh -D 8008 client-host
then set your browser to use localhost:8008 as a SOCKS proxy.
Now when you ask for "web-app-host" both the name lookup and
the data traffic occur over the tunnelled SOCKS proxy port.
-Rob
-----
Rob Warnock <····@rpw3.org>
627 26th Avenue <URL:http://rpw3.org/>
San Mateo, CA 94403 (650)572-2607
·······@Yahoo.Com (Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t) writes:
> But I don't have money for a cellphone, so there's no way I could debug
> any such thing I created to see whether it *really* fit the small
> screen adequately.
But even developers of cell phone software DON'T use a cell phone to debug it.
They use emulations on workstations.
You can easily emulate the small screen, reducing the size of your
navigator window.
>> http://aleph3d.free.fr/
>> The web site is not the "demo" of his abilities, the application is.
>
> That's basically what my riddle-guessing and language-recognizing demo
> was, quick demo that I can produce CGI applications whatsoever, but
> [...]
Yes, quick. He spent 10 years and 3 rewrites to develop this Aleph
3D application, which indeeds demonstrate his ability but is in no way
a "demo".
> Anyway, trying your friend's demo now...
>
> Frangais
> English
> This site uses no browser specific features.
>
> Bug already: It doesn't recognize that my browser (lynx) supports only
> USASCII, and it attempts to send a Latin-1 French-accent character,
> which comes through incorrectly. Please have your friend re-program
> that site to recognize USASCII-only browsers and generate some
> alternate representation of the accented character, such as:
> Fran{c,}ais
Flash news! Most pages on the web are NOT in English! (64.8% exactly)
http://global-reach.biz/globstats/index.php3
Lynx Version 2.8.4rel.1 (17 Jul 2001) Built on linux-gnu Oct 18 2002 06:28:42
is perfectly able to display iso-8859 characters. You might have
a configuration problem.
With these options:
Display and Character Set
Display character set : [Western (ISO-8859-1)___________]
Assumed document character set(!): [iso-8859-1______]
Raw 8-bit (!) : [ON ]
X Display (!) : :0.0______________________________________
all the accented characters are displayed correctly on xterm.
Moreover, with these parameters:
Display and Character Set
Display character set : [7 bit approximations (US-ASCII)]
Assumed document character set(!): [iso-8859-1______]
Raw 8-bit (!) : [OFF]
X Display (!) : :0.0______________________________________
accented characters are displayed on an ASCII terminal correctly,
without the accents. But assuming you're not working with hardware 30
years old, you should be able to use an xterm able to display Unicode
characters, then setting the environment variable LC_ALL to
en_US.UTF-8 should allow your lynx to be configured as:
Display and Character Set
Display character set : [UNICODE (UTF-8)________________]
Assumed document character set(!): [iso-8859-1______]
Raw 8-bit (!) : [ON_]
X Display (!) : :0.0______________________________________
and you'll be able to display even Indian and Chinese pages. Remember
they are ten time more numerous than you USAns or us Europeans, soon
90% of the web will be in Chinese or Hindi; the SPAM we get is already
90% oriental.
> I'm pretty sure two paragraph breaks should appear in that section,
> before the words "Besides" and "I am".
The HTML is properly formated, with the <P>aragraph tag. That's the
job of your HTML rendered to display the paragraphs correctly, or
following your taste. If lynx doesn't do the job, bad lynx, change
lynx. Unfortunately, the solution adopted has been to let the web
site provide "cascaded style shit^Wsheets"... Perhaps lynx can be
configured use a default style sheet when the web site doesn't?
> Hmm, following another link:
> http://aleph3d.free.fr/anglais/galerie.htm
> I see nicely separated paragraphs.
The same tags are used. Your browser is not consistent.
--
__Pascal Bourguignon__ http://www.informatimago.com/
You're always typing.
Well, let's see you ignore my
sitting on your hands.
From: Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t
Subject: Re: [OT] can anyone offer Lisp job?
Date:
Message-ID: <REM-2005aug12-005@Yahoo.Com>
> From: Pascal Bourguignon <····@informatimago.com>
> You can easily emulate the small screen, reducing the size of your
> navigator window.
If you mean literally Navigator, as in Netscape, I'm pretty sure it
wouldn't run over VT100 dialup into Unix shell. If you mean more
generically any Web browser, i.e. lynx, the only one I have available,
let me check if that's possible ... OK I just spent several minutes
scrolling through the entire 'man' pages for lynx, and there's nothing
that looks like it is any window-size adjustment.
> you should be able to use an xterm able to display Unicode ...
> and you'll be able to display even Indian and Chinese pages.
I'm quite sure that the VT100 emulator I'm using to talk over the modem
to Unix/lynx does *not* support Indian or Chinese characters, and I'm
pretty sure xterm can't be used over VT100 dialup but not totally sure.
·······@Yahoo.Com (Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t) writes:
>> From: Pascal Bourguignon <····@informatimago.com>
>> You can easily emulate the small screen, reducing the size of your
>> navigator window.
>
> If you mean literally Navigator, as in Netscape, I'm pretty sure it
> wouldn't run over VT100 dialup into Unix shell. If you mean more
> generically any Web browser, i.e. lynx, the only one I have available,
> let me check if that's possible ... OK I just spent several minutes
> scrolling through the entire 'man' pages for lynx, and there's nothing
> that looks like it is any window-size adjustment.
stty rows 15 columns 32 ; lynx http://www.google.com/pda
That's what somebody else meant when they said you didn't know unix...
--
"Klingon function calls do not have "parameters" -- they have
"arguments" and they ALWAYS WIN THEM."
·······@Yahoo.Com (Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t) writes:
> > From: Pascal Bourguignon <····@informatimago.com>
> > You can easily emulate the small screen, reducing the size of your
> > navigator window.
>
> If you mean literally Navigator, as in Netscape, I'm pretty sure it
> wouldn't run over VT100 dialup into Unix shell. If you mean more
> generically any Web browser, i.e. lynx, the only one I have available,
> let me check if that's possible ... OK I just spent several minutes
> scrolling through the entire 'man' pages for lynx, and there's nothing
> that looks like it is any window-size adjustment.
>
> > you should be able to use an xterm able to display Unicode ...
> > and you'll be able to display even Indian and Chinese pages.
>
> I'm quite sure that the VT100 emulator I'm using to talk over the modem
> to Unix/lynx does *not* support Indian or Chinese characters, and I'm
> pretty sure xterm can't be used over VT100 dialup but not totally sure.
Robert, get a bit serous here! You have already stated your spending
something like $19 per month for what appears to be a dumb terminal
dial-up connection. This is absolutely rediculous. Either your ISP is
ripping you off and you need to look around for another provider. In
this day and age, you should be using PPP at the very least to connect
to the Internet. This will give you full TCP/IP networking and remove
all these artificial restrictions you have. Alternatively, you ISP
does provide PPP and you just haven't configured your system correctly
to use it.
You stated earlier that your ISP charges more for a PPP connection -
if that is the case, you *really* need to get a new ISP. The price you
are paying is not much less than most ISPs are offering for broadband!
I know of ISPs which offer hourly rates of less than $1 and monthly
rates for between $10 and $20.
I would strongly recommend you talk to your ISP as I strongly suspect
you could have PPP connection for the same price and you just haven't
configured your system to use it. We are talking quite old technology
here - PPP based ISPs have been around for over 10 years. For a dumb
serial connection like the one you are using, I would expect it to be
provided for nearly free in this day and age.
Tim
--
Tim Cross
The e-mail address on this message is FALSE (obviously!). My real e-mail is
to a company in Australia called rapttech and my login is tcross - if you
really need to send mail, you should be able to work it out!
·······@Yahoo.Com (Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t) writes:
> > From: Pascal Bourguignon <····@informatimago.com>
> > You can easily emulate the small screen, reducing the size of your
> > navigator window.
>
> If you mean literally Navigator, as in Netscape, I'm pretty sure it
> wouldn't run over VT100 dialup into Unix shell. If you mean more
> generically any Web browser, i.e. lynx, the only one I have available,
> let me check if that's possible ... OK I just spent several minutes
> scrolling through the entire 'man' pages for lynx, and there's nothing
> that looks like it is any window-size adjustment.
You might want to check out Slirp, <URL:http://slirp.sourceforge.net>,
if you want to go around this limitation and be able to use TCP-based
applications.
'mr
--
[Emacs] is written in Lisp, which is the only computer language that is
beautiful. -- Neal Stephenson, _In the Beginning was the Command Line_
From: Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t
Subject: Re: [OT] can anyone offer Lisp job?
Date:
Message-ID: <REM-2005jun27-007@Yahoo.Com>
> From: Ulrich Hobelmann <···········@web.de>
> Companies aren't afraid of you asking too much. If you do, they
> might just not hire you, but with 20+y experience, I'd certainly ask
> for $30 or more, depending on the job.
I'm sure I'm worth at least $30/hr, but given my present dire financial
circumstances I wouldn't turn down a job that offered less, all the way
down to minimum wage or volunteer/trial/demo.
But all the job coaches I've encountered, and the books, and most of
the people on the net, all agree *never* post your salary requirements
with your resume, *always* wait until after an employer has stated how
much they're offering and then consider whether you'll accept that
offer.
> Don't hide the hello world, just delete it. *Everybody* writes hello
> world, nobody wants to read about that, though.
That's not what I'm doing. I'm doing a major organization of
hello-world and steps beyond in multiple languages, comparing them as
to ease in doing the same task in various languages. At the low levels
I'm working on a debate that started on a newsgroup as to whether HTML
qualifies as a true programming language or not, for example see this
argument on the other side (PRO, whereas I'm CON):
http://www.google.se/groups?selm=419036DB.1C90AEF9%40msgid.michael.mendelsohn.de
now compare with my treatment of the matter in my HelloPlus index:
http://www.rawbw.com/~rem/HelloPlus/hellos.html#html2
I think I've clarified the issue, pinned down how exactly HTML is not
quite a programming language whereas anything from PHP to Lisp or Java
is. Where do you stand on the issue? Is my document in any value in
clarifying the difference between HTML and a true programming language,
by showing clearly what others can do that HTML can't?
Also at the low levels, I'm finding what the roadblocks are toward
working CGI applications in a variety of languages. For example Sun
Microsystems a few years ago not only deprecated getenv but actually
changed the compiler to refuse to compile any program that tried to use
it, just because Macintosh doesn't support it and Java is supposed to
work the same everywhere, so it's castrated just because of Macintosh.
I found two workarounds, one of which I use in my demo (have shell
script that maps specific environment variables to -D command-line
options), and one I found later (have a shell script called from inside
Java and collect the output from that sub-process). I think putting
together all these tricks necessary to defeat braindead Sunnies and
the MicroSluts is useful to enable beginners at various languages to
quickly get past the initial bottlenecks in writing CGI applications.
For example, all the tutorials said that if I just put a php file
anywhere within the directory tree from public_html directory it'll
work, but it doesn't. None of them mention the need to put a .htaccess
with appropriate text and group-other-read access at the root of
public-html to enable Apache to process php files as such. But now my
HelloPlus tutorial includes that crucial fact. See:
http://www.rawbw.com/~rem/HelloPlus/hellos.html#php0
Once the newcomer to programming, or the newcomer to various
programming languages, gets past the first three steps after Hello
World via my index/tutorial, then it will get really interesting at a
new level. I plan to set up language-independent programming
instruction. The key will be to think about the kinds of data to create
initially and to process and transform into other kinds of data and how
to finally assemble results for an output report. It won't mention any
specific syntax such as (tell door (open)) or door.open(); and it won't
even name specific function/method names except in a generic way or
when one language has a really good self-explanatory name. A beginning
programmer will be able to set up data and invoke useful operations on
them, in the context of a thesaurus of functions/methods available for
processing specific kinds of data. Then if the student wants to see how
that line of code would look in some specific language, the tutoriral
program could generate that on request. For the programming expert who
wants to learn how to do the same task in a new language, this will
allow such person to browse the thesaurus of data types and processing
tasks, either by hierarchial browsing or by keyword search for known
function/method in the old language, to discover the equivalent data
type and function/method in various other languages.
Do you honestly believe *every* first-year computer-programming student
proceeds from Hello World to what I have embarked upon?? For that
matter has *anyone* other than myself *ever* approached the topic in
this particular way, with CGI as the common testbed (level playing
field) for all languages, and with thesaurus of data types and
functions/methods unifying all currently-active programming languages?
> Nobody cares if it fits a cellphone screen.
Have you ever tried to use Web services on a cellphone via WAP? Have
you ever asked some query and gotten a list of a thousand responses,
alphabetized from A to Z, where you are shown the first thirty A's, and
have to scroll all 30 links one link at a time to get to the bottom to
see the link to next thirty A's, and have to scroll to bottom to get
link to last of the A's and start of the B's, and you already you're
looking for something starting with S or T so you just give up at that
point? I want to improve that situation, and I'm looking for a job
doing it. I tried to find something on Yahoo Maps or somesuch, where I
selected California and it gave me an alphabetical of *all* cities no
matter how small in this state and I never did get to where I wanted
way way down at San Jose or somesuch. Why couldn't they just give a
general map of California showing major regions (NorthCoast,
NorthMtnsValley, Bay Area, CentralValley, YosemiteMountains,
MidSouthCoast, LosAngeles, Deserts, SouthCoast, ImperialValley), so
you'd have only ten to scroll through worst case, then you get enlarged
view of whichever region you selected plus a little overlap around the
edge, etc. hierarchial until you get the tiny city you wanted only 3 or
4 levels deep? I would like a job converting WebSites such as Yahoo
Maps to work like that. I had a cellphone less than one month, in late
2003, and got the idea for WAP services only toward the end, so I had
only a couple days to set up tiny-screen demo before I returned my
Nokia to American Teletrash and Teletrash to avoid being obligated for
a whole year of their horribly cruddy service.
> Why not get a nice design that will actually look good in MS IE
> and Mozilla (probably 97% of browsers used to read your website)
Because I don't currently have access to any such browser where I could
edit the HTML source and quickly see what it looks like so as to have a
reasonable development cycle. All I can do now is blindly use lynx to
set up something and wait for somebody to send e-mail or post an
abusive newsgroup article such as yours complaining about how ugly it
is but never telling me what to change to make it look better.
Setting up something from home over dialup into Unix shell, having no
idea what it looks like except in lynx, then making trip to public
library to see it, then going back home to make changes, then going
back to library another day (because only one session allowed per day)
to see the changes, is not a workable development cycle.
If you would find somebody to fix the modem on my laptop, at no charge
to me because I have no money even for food, then I could observe my
work immediately in very old version of NetScape on laptop, and when I
think I have it looking nice then I could upload to Unix account for
later viewing at public library.
> and put up a nice slogan, like "i'm an experienced programmer in
> search for work. skilled in blablabla, click here for my resume" ??
That sounds like a reasonable idea, except I don't like the language
where I talk like I'm some kind of object that has only one specific
purpose to exist instead of a human being who can do lots of things
including programming and tutoring and organizing information.
How about changing it to adjective (characteristic of myself) or verb
(actions I can do) instead of noun (device equated to self)?
For example: "I have much experience writing/developing computer
software, skilled in several application areas (...) using several
programming languges (...), on several platforms (...), click here for
my resume."? Unfortunately that one sentence (with each ... filled in)
is far larger than will fit on a cellphone screen, possibly larger than
will fit on a VT100 screen.
> Look at other people's websites, at their resumes.
All the sample resumes I've ever seen are of people who have never been
unemployed for more than a few days any time in the previous ten years.
(Running a successful profit-making business with testamonials from
paying customers does not count as unemployed.)
Please show me even one sample resume for a person unemployed the past
12 years, so I have any vague idea how to {resume} my personal situation.
> You might want to choose a functional resume that highlights your
> skills and the benefits hiring you would give the employer, instead
> of the "i did this in that in that year",
I already tried that in many different forms:
http://members.tripod.com/~MaasInfo/SeekJob/Resume.91C.txt
http://members.tripod.com/~MaasInfo/SeekJob/Resume.942.txt
http://members.tripod.com/~MaasInfo/SeekJob/Resume.921-LISP.txt
http://members.tripod.com/~MaasInfo/SeekJob/Resume.92Mac.txt
http://members.tripod.com/~MaasInfo/SeekJob/ResApp.92Mac.txt
http://members.tripod.com/~MaasInfo/SeekJob/Resume.921-CAI.txt
http://members.tripod.com/~MaasInfo/SeekJob/Resume.92Util.txt
http://members.tripod.com/~MaasInfo/SeekJob/Resume.93Games.txt
http://members.tripod.com/~MaasInfo/SeekJob/Resume.947-ISR.txt
http://www.google.se/groups?selm=REM-2005jun15-007%40Yahoo.Com
Not one resume has gotten me a single interview after 1994.
> you didn't do anything for years.
That's a fucking lie! I've done a shitload of things in recent years.
I hereby request you formally retract and apologize for your remark.
> A company might want you to write web pages and maybe server-side
> applications. They certainly wouldn't want their page to look
> *anything* like yours!
Oh, I suppose it's better to look like this where three screens go by
before I get to see the InBox that I asked for, and even after I find
something there aren't any HTML buttons for doing anything:
REFRESH(0 sec): http://us.f600.mail.yahoo.com/ym/login?nojs=1
Yahoo! My Yahoo! Mail Search the web ____________ Search
Yahoo! Mail Welcome, rem947
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Compare that to my WebPage that looks like this:
Index of Hello World! programs and beyond
Table of contents:
* The classic 'Hello World!' (always the same text output)
txt t/h html php sh* perl python lisp awk c c++ java (many more)
* One step beyond (non-static, output varies with time or IP number)
sh* perl python lisp java
* Two steps beyond (responsive, output depends on user input)
html sh* awk lisp
* Three steps beyond (proper decoding of HTML-form contents, so that
program can be correctly responsive to user input)
lisp
* Four or more steps beyond (exploration of different types of data
available in various programming languages, and how to perform
common manipulations on such datatypes, contrasting how to do the
same operation on equivalent data using different programming
languages)
I like mine a lot better.
Or this of mine:
Please identify yourself:
______________________________
Password: _________________
Login
Do you seen any unnecessary clutter or non-functionning garbage there?
Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t wrote:
> > From: Ulrich Hobelmann <···········@web.de>
> > Companies aren't afraid of you asking too much. If you do, they
> > might just not hire you, but with 20+y experience, I'd certainly ask
> > for $30 or more, depending on the job.
>
> I'm sure I'm worth at least $30/hr, but given my present dire financial
> circumstances I wouldn't turn down a job that offered less, all the way
> down to minimum wage or volunteer/trial/demo.
Did you ever considered self-employment?
I don't know where you live but usually
you can find some small company to make
custom app (read database ) 'maybe with
some web portal and keep it up for some
steady fee.
Also if self employment is not an option
consider consulting proffessional resume
writer like :
http://www.blueskyresumes.com/gamasutra.php
One look at your site and every manager thinks
that you are a loser ."Hey this guy can't find a job
there's must be a reason why ?"
If you are so good as you say stop selling yourself so low .
Get rid of that :Please hire me :Please meet me
That's something like friend of mine whose hitting on girls with :
"I know you have a better job to do , and know i'm wasting
your time.." of course they don't want to listen him
anymore. Why should they ?
Managers will not offer you a good job unless they think
you could easily find a better one elsewhere .
Look at Norvig site he's asking people to stop
send him a offers , ok we all know Norvig but
principle is the same managers want proven quality.
Good luck
Antoan
Since your post is *very* long, I'm only skimming it and answering
parts...
Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t wrote:
> Because I don't currently have access to any such browser where I could
> edit the HTML source and quickly see what it looks like so as to have a
> reasonable development cycle. All I can do now is blindly use lynx to
> set up something and wait for somebody to send e-mail or post an
> abusive newsgroup article such as yours complaining about how ugly it
> is but never telling me what to change to make it look better.
Ok, if you can't see the results, that's bad. Maybe you should
try to find a book an CSS at the library and experiment a little
with that. I don't know.
> Please show me even one sample resume for a person unemployed the past
> 12 years, so I have any vague idea how to {resume} my personal situation.
Well, certainly being unemployed for so long doesn't make you any
more attractive for an employer. But you might want to focus on a
concise, one-page resume that states what you're good at. With
that you might have more of a chance if you apply. If they invite
you, that would be a good first step, even if they then ask about
your recent employment history.
>>You might want to choose a functional resume that highlights your
>>skills and the benefits hiring you would give the employer, instead
>>of the "i did this in that in that year",
>
>
> I already tried that in many different forms:
> http://members.tripod.com/~MaasInfo/SeekJob/Resume.91C.txt
> http://members.tripod.com/~MaasInfo/SeekJob/Resume.942.txt
> http://members.tripod.com/~MaasInfo/SeekJob/Resume.921-LISP.txt
> http://members.tripod.com/~MaasInfo/SeekJob/Resume.92Mac.txt
> http://members.tripod.com/~MaasInfo/SeekJob/ResApp.92Mac.txt
> http://members.tripod.com/~MaasInfo/SeekJob/Resume.921-CAI.txt
> http://members.tripod.com/~MaasInfo/SeekJob/Resume.92Util.txt
> http://members.tripod.com/~MaasInfo/SeekJob/Resume.93Games.txt
> http://members.tripod.com/~MaasInfo/SeekJob/Resume.947-ISR.txt
> http://www.google.se/groups?selm=REM-2005jun15-007%40Yahoo.Com
> Not one resume has gotten me a single interview after 1994.
Looking at two of them, that doesn't look too bad. But I think
they're too long (nobody wants to read that much). If you send a
resume to somebody, make it concise and emphasize the few central
points, such that you're familiar with machine-level programming etc.
>
>>you didn't do anything for years.
>
>
> That's a fucking lie! I've done a shitload of things in recent years.
> I hereby request you formally retract and apologize for your remark.
I don't want to look up the context now, but I'm sorry. I'm sure
I didn't mean it that way. I guess I meant that you didn't do any
computer work recently, as you say you're unemployed.
[complex website in lynx I think]
> Compare that to my WebPage that looks like this:
>
> Index of Hello World! programs and beyond
>
> Table of contents:
> * The classic 'Hello World!' (always the same text output)
> txt t/h html php sh* perl python lisp awk c c++ java (many more)
> * One step beyond (non-static, output varies with time or IP number)
> sh* perl python lisp java
> * Two steps beyond (responsive, output depends on user input)
> html sh* awk lisp
> * Three steps beyond (proper decoding of HTML-form contents, so that
> program can be correctly responsive to user input)
> lisp
> * Four or more steps beyond (exploration of different types of data
> available in various programming languages, and how to perform
> common manipulations on such datatypes, contrasting how to do the
> same operation on equivalent data using different programming
> languages)
>
> I like mine a lot better.
>
> Or this of mine:
> Please identify yourself:
> ______________________________
> Password: _________________
> Login
> Do you seen any unnecessary clutter or non-functionning garbage there?
I fully agree, but I care about simplicity. Most people don't, or
only care about a nice graphic layout. I'm not talking about
that, just that you might want to do some CSS to set some nicer
fonts, maybe center some of the stuff, make it more readable, give
it a small margin. This won't hurt Lynx rendering a bit.
--
Don't let school interfere with your education. -- Mark Twain
From: Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t
Subject: Re: [OT] can anyone offer Lisp job?
Date:
Message-ID: <REM-2005aug12-007@Yahoo.Com>
> From: Ulrich Hobelmann <···········@web.de>
> Since your post is *very* long, I'm only skimming it and answering
> parts...
That's a big advantage of written communiation. If this were audio,
it'd be nigh impossible for you to skim it or jump around efficiently.
Videotape is intermediate in difficulty, because even at high speed you
can visually recognize the part you want to stop at and see in detail.
(Which reminds me, I didn't see the SuperBowl incident where Janet
Jackson had an "accident" with her costume. Anybody have a tape of that
SuperBowl I could skim in fast forward to find that incident?)
> Maybe you should try to find a book an CSS at the library and
> experiment a little with that.
If I can't see the results, it's rather difficult to do any
experiments. Besides, last Summer I took a class in Web design which
included CSS at one point, so I had a little experience with that. But
I had no artistic intuition as to what visual effect anybody would ever
want to use them for, so I did just the absolute minimum needed to get
credit for them in the homework assignment. Anything beyond that would
require some outside motivation from somebody with artistic creative
ability to specify what visual effect I should generate.
> you might want to focus on a concise, one-page resume that states
> what you're good at.
I think I've already done that at least once.
> > I already tried that in many different forms:
> > http://members.tripod.com/~MaasInfo/SeekJob/Resume.91C.txt
> > http://members.tripod.com/~MaasInfo/SeekJob/Resume.942.txt
> > http://members.tripod.com/~MaasInfo/SeekJob/Resume.921-LISP.txt
> > http://members.tripod.com/~MaasInfo/SeekJob/Resume.92Mac.txt
> > http://members.tripod.com/~MaasInfo/SeekJob/ResApp.92Mac.txt
> > http://members.tripod.com/~MaasInfo/SeekJob/Resume.921-CAI.txt
> > http://members.tripod.com/~MaasInfo/SeekJob/Resume.92Util.txt
> > http://members.tripod.com/~MaasInfo/SeekJob/Resume.93Games.txt
> > http://members.tripod.com/~MaasInfo/SeekJob/Resume.947-ISR.txt
> > http://www.google.se/groups?selm=REM-2005jun15-007%40Yahoo.Com
> > Not one resume has gotten me a single interview after 1994.
> Looking at two of them, that doesn't look too bad.
Which two did you like?
> If you send a resume to somebody, make it concise and emphasize the
> few central points, such that you're familiar with machine-level
> programming etc.
After you tell me which two resumes you like (above), would you be
willing to work with me to change them in the ways you suggest? By the
way, for some recent job ads, I've (in each separate case) made a copy
of one of my general resumes and then removed all the stuff that sounds
totally unrelated to the job ad, and then added a few specific things
that are very specifically related to the job that weren't mentionned
in the general resume. In each case I never heard back from the person
I sent the resume to. Sending the resume was like dropping a note in a
bottle into a furnace, or dropping a "Loveletter in the sand" into a
cement mixer, etc. (I'm tired of the "black hole" metaphor, so I
thought I'd try varying it, but maybe that was a mistake.)
> I guess I meant that you didn't do any computer work recently, as you
> say you're unemployed.
I've done a shitload of computer work recently, all unpaid.
Have you browsed my WebPage of recent accomplishments??
http://www.rawbw.com/~rem/WAP/SeekJobAccom.html
> > Or this of mine:
> > Please identify yourself:
> > ______________________________
> > Password: _________________
> > Login
> > Do you seen any unnecessary clutter or non-functionning garbage there?
> I fully agree, but I care about simplicity. Most people don't, or
> only care about a nice graphic layout. I'm not talking about
> that, just that you might want to do some CSS to set some nicer
> fonts, maybe center some of the stuff, make it more readable, give
> it a small margin. This won't hurt Lynx rendering a bit.
And how exactly do you propose that a blind person do something like
that? My only access to the net is via VT100 dialup. My only access to
the Web, even to stuff I wrote myself, is via lynx. Lynx is **BLIND**
to CSS. I am **BLIND** to CSS. How can a blind person draw a picture by
command. Sure, I can imagine a blind person with real physical paint
and real physical canvess making motions to swirl paint onto the
canvass, and mentally imagine what they look like, and thereby produce
a work of art. But a command interface such as HTML doesn't provide the
kind of feedback to allow a blind person to create a work of art.
> Don't let school interfere with your education. -- Mark Twain
I can imagine Mae West making the same remark, with slightly different
deep meaning. Come up and see me sometime for a night class!
Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t wrote:
>> Maybe you should try to find a book an CSS at the library and
>> experiment a little with that.
>
> If I can't see the results, it's rather difficult to do any
> experiments. Besides, last Summer I took a class in Web design which
> included CSS at one point, so I had a little experience with that. But
> I had no artistic intuition as to what visual effect anybody would ever
> want to use them for, so I did just the absolute minimum needed to get
> credit for them in the homework assignment. Anything beyond that would
> require some outside motivation from somebody with artistic creative
> ability to specify what visual effect I should generate.
Get another web browser. www.dillo.org says that they're working on CSS
support. Otherwise the Mozilla variety works.
>>> I already tried that in many different forms:
>>> http://members.tripod.com/~MaasInfo/SeekJob/Resume.91C.txt
>>> http://members.tripod.com/~MaasInfo/SeekJob/Resume.942.txt
>>> http://members.tripod.com/~MaasInfo/SeekJob/Resume.921-LISP.txt
>>> http://members.tripod.com/~MaasInfo/SeekJob/Resume.92Mac.txt
>>> http://members.tripod.com/~MaasInfo/SeekJob/ResApp.92Mac.txt
>>> http://members.tripod.com/~MaasInfo/SeekJob/Resume.921-CAI.txt
>>> http://members.tripod.com/~MaasInfo/SeekJob/Resume.92Util.txt
>>> http://members.tripod.com/~MaasInfo/SeekJob/Resume.93Games.txt
>>> http://members.tripod.com/~MaasInfo/SeekJob/Resume.947-ISR.txt
>>> http://www.google.se/groups?selm=REM-2005jun15-007%40Yahoo.Com
>>> Not one resume has gotten me a single interview after 1994.
>
>> Looking at two of them, that doesn't look too bad.
>
> Which two did you like?
The first one (91C) contains some marketable stuff, even if it has that
12-year hole in it. I don't know which the other one was.
The rest is too lengthy. Nobody wants to read long lists of skills they
don't know about. Companies want to see your advertisement targeted
specifically *at them*, so choose an area you'd like to work in (that
has lots of jobs), learn the stuff and write your applications.
>> If you send a resume to somebody, make it concise and emphasize the
>> few central points, such that you're familiar with machine-level
>> programming etc.
>
> After you tell me which two resumes you like (above), would you be
> willing to work with me to change them in the ways you suggest? By the
Honestly I got my own stuff to do...
I don't think displaying those files on the web does any good. You
might want to your CV in HTML (even without CSS), highlight
(<strong>...) the more exciting parts, and put that online. Otherwise
sending applications via email is probably better. OTOH, you shouldn't
ask me, I'm just a student, with no work experience outside the
university. ;)
> way, for some recent job ads, I've (in each separate case) made a copy
> of one of my general resumes and then removed all the stuff that sounds
> totally unrelated to the job ad, and then added a few specific things
> that are very specifically related to the job that weren't mentionned
> in the general resume. In each case I never heard back from the person
> I sent the resume to. Sending the resume was like dropping a note in a
> bottle into a furnace, or dropping a "Loveletter in the sand" into a
> cement mixer, etc. (I'm tired of the "black hole" metaphor, so I
> thought I'd try varying it, but maybe that was a mistake.)
I'm afraid that's life.
>> I guess I meant that you didn't do any computer work recently, as you
>> say you're unemployed.
>
> I've done a shitload of computer work recently, all unpaid.
> Have you browsed my WebPage of recent accomplishments??
> http://www.rawbw.com/~rem/WAP/SeekJobAccom.html
Taught yourself this, installed that. Fine, but nobody will want to
read that I guess. Do some actual programming in XML, Java or whatever.
Maybe joining an interesting open-source project in that area is a
good idea. If it does something useful, it might do more for your image
than any such taught-myself list.
>>> Or this of mine:
>>> Please identify yourself:
>>> ______________________________
>>> Password: _________________
>>> Login
>>> Do you seen any unnecessary clutter or non-functionning garbage there?
>
>> I fully agree, but I care about simplicity. Most people don't, or
>> only care about a nice graphic layout. I'm not talking about
>> that, just that you might want to do some CSS to set some nicer
>> fonts, maybe center some of the stuff, make it more readable, give
>> it a small margin. This won't hurt Lynx rendering a bit.
>
> And how exactly do you propose that a blind person do something like
> that? My only access to the net is via VT100 dialup. My only access to
> the Web, even to stuff I wrote myself, is via lynx. Lynx is **BLIND**
> to CSS. I am **BLIND** to CSS.
Lynx should just ignore the CSS, so it doesn't hurt. I haven't looked
into accessibility stuff yet.
But again, 99% of the people out there use graphical browsers, so if you
want to do anything on the www, make getting such a browser your #1
priority.
--
I believe in Karma. That means I can do bad things to people
all day long and I assume they deserve it.
Dogbert
>Do you honestly believe *every* first-year computer-programming student
>proceeds from Hello World to what I have embarked upon??
At better universities, first year comp sci students are writing compilers.
--
Seek simplicity and mistrust it.
Alfred North Whitehead
Who would have thought that there are so many things in the world
that I do not want?
Socrates, while strolling through the marketplace in Athens
Caligula wrote:
>>Do you honestly believe *every* first-year computer-programming student
>>proceeds from Hello World to what I have embarked upon??
>
>
> At better universities, first year comp sci students are writing compilers.
>
So it's not only a legend. I know why I was severely pissed and
frustrated when I could do that only in my 3rd year here in Germany :(
--
Don't let school interfere with your education. -- Mark Twain
From: Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t
Subject: Re: [OT] can anyone offer Lisp job?
Date:
Message-ID: <REM-2005apr20-004@Yahoo.Com>
> From: Pascal Bourguignon <····@mouse-potato.com>
> English is the main language of India. There's no reason to believe
> an Indian would be less skilled at English than a North American.
> Often North Americans are less understandable than other (of British
> influence) English speakers...
I've encountered a large number of Indians in recent years, and I found
virtually all of them to be very difficult to understand audibly. Also
many of them write horrid English when they compose WebPages. They seem
to really have no basic understanding or intuition for English grammar
and idioms.
On 2005-04-20, Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t <·······@Yahoo.Com> wrote:
> I've encountered a large number of Indians in recent years, and I found
> virtually all of them to be very difficult to understand audibly. Also
> many of them write horrid English when they compose WebPages. They seem
> to really have no basic understanding or intuition for English grammar
> and idioms.
The same could be said of many people whose first and only language is
English. As prime examples, check blogs with user comments, or any
chat service. (#lisp is naturally rife with brilliance, but is a poor
example.)
Tim
--
"It is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere."
- Voltaire
Tim Lavoie wrote:
>On 2005-04-20, Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t <·······@Yahoo.Com> wrote:
>
>
>
>>I've encountered a large number of Indians in recent years, and I found
>>virtually all of them to be very difficult to understand audibly. Also
>>many of them write horrid English when they compose WebPages. They seem
>>to really have no basic understanding or intuition for English grammar
>>and idioms.
>>
>>
>
>The same could be said of many people whose first and only language is
>English. As prime examples, check blogs with user comments, or any
>chat service. (#lisp is naturally rife with brilliance, but is a poor
>example.)
>
>
>
Not for spoken English. I've never met an educated American that I had
any difficulty understanding. It's the uneducated / insufficiently
educated ones that are hard to decipher.
--
Cheers, www.indiegamedesign.com
Brandon Van Every Seattle, WA
20% of the world is real.
80% is gobbledygook we make up inside our own heads.
On 2005-04-20, Brandon J. Van Every wrote:
>>
>>The same could be said of many people whose first and only language is
>>English. As prime examples, check blogs with user comments, or any
>>chat service. (#lisp is naturally rife with brilliance, but is a poor
>>example.)
>>
>>
>>
> Not for spoken English. I've never met an educated American that I had
> any difficulty understanding. It's the uneducated / insufficiently
> educated ones that are hard to decipher.
Such as... the President? <grin>
I'm not disagreeing, but the latter group seems to have discovered the
InterWeb (sic) as well.
--
"A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the
subject."
-- Winston Churchill
From: Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t
Subject: Re: can anyone offer Lisp job?
Date:
Message-ID: <REM-2005apr24-007@Yahoo.Com>
> From: ···@conquest.OCF.Berkeley.EDU (Thomas F. Burdick)
> this newfound or newly expressed racism and xenophobia of yours is
> really disgusting.
Neither property applies to me. Your opinion is blatantly incorrect.
·······@Yahoo.Com (Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t) writes:
> I'm desperately hoping some company in the USA will realize that the
> overhead in dealing with people who no spekka ingish widout badd aksent
...
> somebody could hire me to re-do all the broken-English documentation
> produced by the Indians who wrote the software
I think that I begin to understand why you are not getting hired.
You have a serious attitude problem.
israel wrote:
>·······@Yahoo.Com (Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t) writes:
>
>
>
>>I'm desperately hoping some company in the USA will realize that the
>>overhead in dealing with people who no spekka ingish widout badd aksent
>>
>>
>...
>
>
>>somebody could hire me to re-do all the broken-English documentation
>>produced by the Indians who wrote the software
>>
>>
>
>I think that I begin to understand why you are not getting hired.
>You have a serious attitude problem.
>
>
>
>
Yes he does, but it is not because he's ragging on the English skills of
foreigners. It's because he invents elaborate scenarios about how the
foreigners prevent him from getting a Lisp job. What's really
preventing him is his utter unwillingness to do a proper job search, to
do the right things, and say the right things to the right people.
--
Cheers, www.indiegamedesign.com
Brandon Van Every Seattle, WA
When no one else sells courage, supply and demand take hold.
"Brandon J. Van Every" <·····················@mycompanyname.com> writes:
> It's because he invents elaborate scenarios about how
> the foreigners prevent him from getting a Lisp job. What's really
> preventing him is his utter unwillingness to do a proper job search,
> to do the right things, and say the right things to the right people.
His truly pathetic personal web site is unlikely to help either.
He lists writing "Hello World" programs in 2002 as a significant achievement.
Reading this and the long winded story on it about his credit card debt and
his impending eviction is unlikely to encourage any prospective employer.
Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t wrote:
[much snippage]
> overhead in dealing with people who no spekka ingish widout badd
aksent
> and live so far away it takes an international long distance phone
call
> to talk to them live (as if that did any good with their accent), and
> whose documentation is illegible due to lack of English skills, is
just
[snip]
> If that's your best opinion, then *you* are a fucking idiot who
doesn't
[snip
> Fuck you! That "business model" works fine for Indians. They're
> You have a fucking stupid attitude. I'm telling the truth. I have 15
[snip snip]
Judging by the above, I think I know why you have not had any luck
getting hired. Here's a hint: it has nothing at all to do with
outsourcing...
A.B.
(message (Hello 'Robert)
(you :wrote :on '(Sun, 17 Apr 2005 14:45:12 -0700))
(
??>> i don't have much experience with Common Lisp
RMs> It sounds like you have less than one year Common Lisp experience,
RMs> is that a correct assessent? Accordingly:
RMs> Would you be willing to work for less than one dollar per hour,
RMs> in rough proportion to your lesser amount of experience than I have?
no, because at any time i can work as C++ or PHP programmer at least for
1.5-2$ per hour. :)
RMs> Do you have experience writing WebServer applictions using Common
RMs> Lisp? I do. I have an online demo I made when I first started CGI/CL
RMs> programming near the 2000/2001 boundary.
RMs> http://shell.rawbw.com/~rem/cgi-bin/topscript.cgi
RMs> Do you have a demo of your CGI/CL programming to compare to mine?
:)
i see no benefits of using CGI with CL..
i've nearly production-quality web-site for my university with CL (based on
mod_lisp) -- but unfortunately other developers didn't like Lisp, so it was
replaced with PHP one.
also i've done small game working via HTTP that is intended to be used from
mobile phones,
and now i'm doing educational program for my diplom work doing
web-programming in Common Lisp..
)
(With-best-regards '(Alex Mizrahi) :aka 'killer_storm)
"People who lust for the Feel of keys on their fingertips (c) Inity")
Alex Mizrahi wrote:
> no, because at any time i can work as C++ or PHP programmer at least for
> 1.5-2$ per hour. :)
That's pretty low. I was told that in Moscow, a good programmer or
electrical engineer has to be paid about $1,000 - $2,000 per month. Are
Ukrainians so much cheaper?
(message (Hello 'alex)
(you :wrote :on '(Wed, 20 Apr 2005 04:33:35 -0700))
(
??>> no, because at any time i can work as C++ or PHP programmer at least
??>> for 1.5-2$ per hour. :)
ag> That's pretty low. I was told that in Moscow, a good programmer or
ag> electrical engineer has to be paid about $1,000 - $2,000 per month. Are
ag> Ukrainians so much cheaper?
Moscow is the capital of Russia, so salaries there are highest in former
USSR, i think.
in capital city of Ukraine, Kiev, they are somewhat smaller. in regions of
Ukraine it gets even more smaller..
something around 500$ is ok for a good programmer on a normal job, i think.
in state-owned companies, banks for example, people get as low as 100-200$,
that's definitely a horror..
"1.5-2$" i wrote is a lower bound, i believe i always can get something like
that if i wish :), but that's ok for me only as part-time job while studying
in university..
you wouldn't think that 5$/hour is ok in California basing on Robert Maas'
demands, ye? :)
)
(With-best-regards '(Alex Mizrahi) :aka 'killer_storm)
"People who lust for the Feel of keys on their fingertips (c) Inity")
From: Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t
Subject: Re: can anyone offer Lisp job?
Date:
Message-ID: <REM-2005apr24-009@Yahoo.Com>
> From: "Alex Mizrahi" <········@users.sourceforge.net>
> i see no benefits of using CGI with CL..
I see a great benefit of CGI/CL compared to CL running on a private
machine inaccessible from anywhere else, namely that I can provide a
free Web-accessible demo of my software so that people anywhere on
InterNet can try my software without needing to come to California and
see it in-person with me.
I see a great benefit of CGI/CL compared CGI with any other programming
language. Compared to Perl or shell-acripts, CL is much easier/quicker
to program.
Compared to Java, CL has the advantage that I can patch a line of code
and *immediately* refresh the browser window to try the new code, no
need to wait for a compilation to occur.
Compared to all other programming languages, CGI/CL has both advantages.
> i've nearly production-quality web-site for my university with CL
> (based on mod_lisp)
I don't believe mod_lisp is available on the commercial public ISP
where I have my shell account (and my CGI/CL demos), and I don't have
any money to bribe the admin to take the trouble to install it just for
me. Do you know an easy way to tell whether mod_lisp is installed on a
given FreeBSD Unix system, on the off chance it's already installed but
I didn't know it was?
> but unfortunately other developers didn't like Lisp, so it was
> replaced with PHP one.
PHP is supposed to be available on this shell machine, but when I tried
to use it, it didn't work for me. Do you have enough expertise to look
at what I tried and tell me what I did wrong and how to get it working
for me?
·······@Yahoo.Com (Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t) writes:
> I live in California and would be willing to work for the legal minimum
> wage, something like $5 something/hour.
That translates to around 200 Indian Rupees / hour
ie: 32,000 Rupees / month for a 40 hour week.
Indians ( and perhaps ukrainians ) would undercut that by a factor of 3
and still make a profit.
Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t wrote:
I noticed that you reacted very belligerently to suggestions and criticism
by others in this thread. However, I'm going to say this anyway. Your web
site alone puts you in the "unemployable" pile in the eyes of most
potential employers.
While you had 15 years of mostly free time, have you considered creating
your own product and perhaps selling it?
·······@Yahoo.Com (Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t) writes:
>> From: "Alex Mizrahi" <········@users.sourceforge.net>
>> i would like to have some remote, not so big, complex or urgent job
>> in Common Lisp. since i live in Ukraine, fee could be surprisingly
>> low as for USA/EU-living people. :)
>
> I live in California and would be willing to work for the legal minimum
> wage, something like $5something/hour. I have 15 years Lisp programming
> experience. Would you be willing to undercut my wage-bid?
>
Shzzz - are you serious! I wouldn't even get out of bed for $5 per
hour. My minimum consulting rate is $80 per hour and if I'm working as
an employee, its a minimum of $30 per hour + 15% super. I've been
either employed or consulting without a period of unemployment for 15
years.
One thing I learnt early in my consulting days was that there was more
of a danger of under selling yourself than over selling. I initially
lost jobs because I wasn't charging enough and pospective employers
thought I either wasn't serious or didn't have the necessary
skills. At the time, this seemed counter intuitive, but now I realise
that pricing yourself too cheap puts you in the 'amateur' class and
prevents you from getting good jobs.
I think its a mis-conception to believe you have to be cheap in order
to compete with cheap labour from India, western europe etc. In many
cases, while the people doing the work get paid very little, there is
some level of management/coordinator who charges quite high and just
keeps the cream for themselves - something I find very exploitative
and which I find somewhat annoying. This out sourcing of programming
to 3rd world countries also doesn't seem to be paying off quite as
well as some employers have hoped. In many cases, they have found
cultural differences have led to misunderstandings wrt specifications
and the additional coordination and handling of what is produced is
eating up any savings made through outsourcing - plus usually its not
as cheap as it looks because some middle layer is taking all the
profits. In reality it just means two different groups being exploited
and played off against each other for some 3rd parties gain.
Tim
--
Tim Cross
The e-mail address on this message is FALSE (obviously!). My real e-mail is
to a company in Australia called rapttech and my login is tcross - if you
really need to send mail, you should be able to work it out!
Tim X <····@spamto.devnul.com> wrote:
> I initially
> lost jobs because I wasn't charging enough and pospective employers
> thought I either wasn't serious or didn't have the necessary
> skills.
and it works the other way, too: I've read an article in a magazin (I think
it was a German issue of Scientific American) about an experiment, which
leads to the conclusion that if you get less income, you are less motivated
and you don't think it is worth to do as much as you can for the job. So if
you get $80 instead of $5 you are 16 times more productive for the company
for which you are working :-) Ok, perhaps not that much more productive,
but you get the idea.
--
Frank Bu�, ··@frank-buss.de
http://www.frank-buss.de, http://www.it4-systems.de
Frank Buss wrote:
> and it works the other way, too: I've read an article in a magazin (I think
> it was a German issue of Scientific American) about an experiment, which
> leads to the conclusion that if you get less income, you are less motivated
> and you don't think it is worth to do as much as you can for the job. So if
> you get $80 instead of $5 you are 16 times more productive for the company
> for which you are working :-) Ok, perhaps not that much more productive,
> but you get the idea.
Tell that to the people who employ students. I'm not really
motivated working for $10/h. If someone would employ me for $25,
I'd really try to do most excellent work (because I would think
I'm treated fairly).
Why is it that once you graduate (even though you don't know
anything more than before and still have the same experience
level) you are able to charge 5 times what you earned before??
(well, it seems like in Germany you don't even get IT jobs at all
anymore, but the people who do earn way more than $10/h)
--
No man is good enough to govern another man without that other's
consent. -- Abraham Lincoln
Ulrich Hobelmann wrote:
> Tell that to the people who employ students.
So you are a student then? That would explain a number of things about
the debates we've had.
> I'm not really motivated working for $10/h. If someone would employ
> me for $25, I'd really try to do most excellent work (because I would
> think I'm treated fairly).
You could try poverty as a motivator. :-) Of course my poverty is
self-inflicted. I am very purist about wanting to do exactly my own
thing in the programming and game design depts. So rather than put
energy into getting paid a lot of money to solve other people's
problems, I do these "dumb jobs" that pay little. I come close to
having $0 all the time. When you actually want to *eat*, and, say,
$12/hour is going to enable you to *eat*, you'll tough it out and do
what you gotta do. I must admit though, $15/hour is my threshold of
motivation. Really the only reason I've take $12/hour from my landlord
is because it made him happy. Having him remain lenient about my debts
has *tremendous* value, so it's actually worth a lot more than
$12/hour. Anyone else, if it's less than $15/hour, I'm not interested.
And my attention isn't going to be kept for less than $20/hour.
Remember too I'm only talking about "stupid jobs." I'm not talking
computer money. Perhaps if you want to get paid more than $10/hour, you
should try stupid jobs? Sure, lotsa stupid jobs only pay $10/hour or
less and that's a ripoff. But there are stupid jobs that pay better.
> Why is it that once you graduate (even though you don't know anything
> more than before and still have the same experience level) you are
> able to charge 5 times what you earned before??
> (well, it seems like in Germany you don't even get IT jobs at all
> anymore, but the people who do earn way more than $10/h)
>
"In life, you don't get what you deserve. You get what you negotiate."
--
Cheers, www.indiegamedesign.com
Brandon Van Every Seattle, WA
When no one else sells courage, supply and demand take hold.
Brandon J. Van Every wrote:
> You could try poverty as a motivator. :-) Of course my poverty is
No, I'd rather not work than for an unfair wage. That's because
if I work more and study less for college (ok, not important) and
study less for myself, what I think might give me an edge. So I'm
wasting time @ $10/h instead of getting done faster and finding a
well-paying job earlier. I'm really lucky that my dad pays me
some so I don't starve.
At the university they pay �8, in the US even much less. So I
quit my �8 job after a semester.
>> Why is it that once you graduate (even though you don't know anything
>> more than before and still have the same experience level) you are
>> able to charge 5 times what you earned before??
>> (well, it seems like in Germany you don't even get IT jobs at all
>> anymore, but the people who do earn way more than $10/h)
>>
> "In life, you don't get what you deserve. You get what you negotiate."
Yes, this summer I'll look for something outside of the University.
--
No man is good enough to govern another man without that other's
consent. -- Abraham Lincoln
Ulrich Hobelmann <···········@web.de> wrote:
>At the university they pay ?8, in the US even much less. So I
>quit my ?8 job after a semester.
Heh. Here it's 6.20.
mkb.
"Brandon J. Van Every" <·····················@mycompanyname.com> wrote:
> So rather than put
> energy into getting paid a lot of money to solve other people's
> problems, I do these "dumb jobs" that pay little.
dumb jobs would make me dumb. What about getting a lot of money by solving
other people's problems for a year and then concentrating a year on your
gaming projects?
--
Frank Bu�, ··@frank-buss.de
http://www.frank-buss.de, http://www.it4-systems.de
Frank Buss wrote:
>"Brandon J. Van Every" <·····················@mycompanyname.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>>So rather than put
>>energy into getting paid a lot of money to solve other people's
>>problems, I do these "dumb jobs" that pay little.
>>
>>
>
>dumb jobs would make me dumb. What about getting a lot of money by solving
>other people's problems for a year and then concentrating a year on your
>gaming projects?
>
>
>
It's a gambit, but I have been loath to put my own problems on hold at
all. My fear has been, if I am working full time on computer stuff for
someone else, then at the end of the day, I'll have no desire to work on
my own stuff. My stuff will just slip into a void as life marches onwards.
"Stupid jobs" is a tradeoff. It does suck away time, as any job would
do. However, instead of draining my brain, I get physical exercise.
Instead of sitting in front of the computer, I get people interaction.
It's not so stupid at all to get other life needs met with paying work.
I do a lot of "Wax on, wax off!"
--
Cheers, www.indiegamedesign.com
Brandon Van Every Seattle, WA
Taking risk where others will not.
"Brandon J. Van Every" <·····················@mycompanyname.com> writes:
> It's a gambit, but I have been loath to put my own problems on hold at
> all. My fear has been, if I am working full time on computer stuff
> for someone else, then at the end of the day, I'll have no desire to
> work on my own stuff. My stuff will just slip into a void as life
> marches onwards.
I think you would find working in a real computer job with talented
programmers around you a rewarding experience. I recomend it.
It would also be nice if a higher ratio of postings had some obvious
connection to Lisp.
--
An ideal world is left as an excercise to the reader.
--- Paul Graham, On Lisp 8.1
No excuses. No apologies. Just do it.
--- Erik Naggum
"Frank Buss" <··@frank-buss.de> wrote
> and it works the other way, too: I've read an article in a magazin (I
think
> it was a German issue of Scientific American) about an experiment, which
> leads to the conclusion that if you get less income, you are less
motivated
> and you don't think it is worth to do as much as you can for the job. So
if
> you get $80 instead of $5 you are 16 times more productive for the company
> for which you are working :-) Ok, perhaps not that much more productive,
> but you get the idea.
Is the 16 times factor including or in addition to the 20 times productivity
boost for using Common Lisp? ;-)
Marc
(a poor low cost western european Lisper ;-)
(My name is even Hungarian!)
On Wed, 20 Apr 2005 18:25:00 +1000, Tim X <····@spamto.devnul.com> wrote:
> I think its a mis-conception to believe you have to be cheap in
> order to compete with cheap labour from India, western europe etc.
Cheap labour in Western Europe? Hmmm - I hope this was a typo.
Edi.
--
Lisp is not dead, it just smells funny.
Real email: (replace (subseq ·········@agharta.de" 5) "edi")
Edi Weitz <········@agharta.de> writes:
> On Wed, 20 Apr 2005 18:25:00 +1000, Tim X <····@spamto.devnul.com> wrote:
>
>> I think its a mis-conception to believe you have to be cheap in
>> order to compete with cheap labour from India, western europe etc.
>
Opps, must have been facing the wrong way - should have been eastern!
--
Tim Cross
The e-mail address on this message is FALSE (obviously!). My real e-mail is
to a company in Australia called rapttech and my login is tcross - if you
really need to send mail, you should be able to work it out!