Hi
I am increasingly suffering acute RSI to the point I may be faced to give up
coding. So far the doctors have offered nothing and I'm wondering what
others have done in similar situation. I'm posting this here because i
primarily code in lisp (python and Java also). My preferred working
environment is emacs on linux. I am half considering moving to windogh and
using voice recognition but it seems to me that vr softaware wouldn't
handle lisp too well. Anyone have suggestions other then firring my
doctors?
Thanks
Steven Jones
sj wrote:
> Hi
>
> I am increasingly suffering acute RSI to the point I may be faced to give up
> coding. So far the doctors have offered nothing and I'm wondering what
> others have done in similar situation. I'm posting this here because i
> primarily code in lisp (python and Java also). My preferred working
> environment is emacs on linux. I am half considering moving to windogh and
> using voice recognition but it seems to me that vr softaware wouldn't
> handle lisp too well. Anyone have suggestions other then firring my
> doctors?
I've been looking for a while at getting a Kinesis ergonomic keyboard,
but have held back due to pricing. Look at their site at
http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/. If you end up buying one, please report
back your experience.
Oh, and I couldn't imagine programming in lisp via voice recognition
working out. Saying "call... lambda... begin list... x... end list...
call... less-than... x... five... end call... end call" would truly make
Lisp seem like lots of irritating silly parenthesis.
-- MJF
M Jared Finder <·····@hpalace.com> wrote in message news:<···············@uni-berlin.de>...
> I've been looking for a while at getting a Kinesis ergonomic keyboard,
> but have held back due to pricing. Look at their site at
> http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/. If you end up buying one, please report
> back your experience.
My RSI is tendonitis in both wrists. What follows works for me, but
may not work for anyone else:
I've been using a Kinesis for something like 8 years now and am happy
enough with them that I bought my own for home use despite the price.
They're actually easy to learn to use IFF you're a touch typist. Switch
between a Kinesis and a regular keyboard is possible but you'll make a
lot of off by one key typos. I find that I type faster on a Kinesis than
I did on a regular or Microsoft Natural keyboard.
It seems that mice cause me more pain than keyboards. I try to
minimize this by working with a trackball on the right and a mouse on
the left and switching back and forth.
I wear a brace at night on my right wrist (and left when things are bad)
but not during the day. On rare occasions I'll use a pair of Handeze
elastic partial gloves when typing. They seem to help but I try not
to rely on them. My doctor and physical therapist were mildly skeptical
of them.
M Jared Finder wrote:
> sj wrote:
>> Hi
>>
>> I am increasingly suffering acute RSI to the point I may be faced to give
>> up coding. So far the doctors have offered nothing and I'm wondering what
>> others have done in similar situation. I'm posting this here because i
>> primarily code in lisp (python and Java also). My preferred working
>> environment is emacs on linux. I am half considering moving to windogh
>> and using voice recognition but it seems to me that vr softaware wouldn't
>> handle lisp too well. Anyone have suggestions other then firring my
>> doctors?
>
> I've been looking for a while at getting a Kinesis ergonomic keyboard,
> but have held back due to pricing. Look at their site at
> http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/. If you end up buying one, please report
> back your experience.
>
> Oh, and I couldn't imagine programming in lisp via voice recognition
> working out. Saying "call... lambda... begin list... x... end list...
> call... less-than... x... five... end call... end call" would truly make
> Lisp seem like lots of irritating silly parenthesis.
>
> -- MJF
Thanks. I looked at the kinesis-ergo site and frankly Im a bit leary of the
split keyboard design. I bought a Microsoft "ergonomic" keyboard about a
year ago and couldn't stand the thing. I did read somewhare (possibly in
the micro inquirer http://www.theinquirer.net/ ) that ms had the hand
angle wromg so perhaps thats what the problem was
--
Replace underscores in email address to reply
sj <··········@_swbell.net> writes:
> Thanks. I looked at the kinesis-ergo site and frankly Im a bit leary
> of the split keyboard design. I bought a Microsoft "ergonomic"
> keyboard about a year ago and couldn't stand the thing.
I was never diagnosed with RSI; however, due to discomfort while
typing (especially with emacs chords), I purchased the Kinesis
contoured keyboard:
http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/contoured.htm
I've been using it now for about a year and I will say that the
discomfort I felt at the end of a long day of typing is no longer
present. The keyboard was recommended to me from two of my friends
that were having the same problem. Like me, they also speak very
highly of the Kinesis.
Although the Kinesis may not look as "cool" as some of the other
supposedly ergo-friendly keyboards, it definitely made typing a lot
less harsh for me. I have some better pictures of it here (click on
the thumbnail for a bigger picture):
http://www.kazmier.com/vacation/kinesis/index.html
Here are some of my thoughts on the keyboard and why I personally like
it and some useful tips if you do purchase one:
* I find the vertical layout of the keys to be much more natural
than the diagonal layout of a traditional keyboard. In addition,
each key is at a different height depending on which finger is
supposed to use it. I.e., the 'D' key is physically lower than
the 'F' and 'S' keys because your middle finger is longer than
your first and third fingers. Finally, the each side of the
keyboard is concave. These tweaks may not be easy to see in the
photos but I believe its one of the reasons the keyboard feels so
natural. On the flip side, if you don't type correctly, or you
have some sort of mutant hands, this is definitely not going to
be the keyboard for you.
* Ctl, Alt, Delete, Backspace, Space, PgUp, PgDn, Home, and End are
now moved to an area on the keyboard for use by your thumbs (which
only control the Space bar on a traditional keyboard). Now, all
of your fingers (and thumbs) are utilized in an effective
manner. Chording in emacs is certainly easier using thumbs.
I did make a few minor changes to the keyboard (as it can be
remapped). I ditched the "Windows" key which is in the "thumb"
area and replaced it with another Alt key for symmetry. I also
replaced the End key with Esc which is also in the thumb area.
The normal placement of the Esc key is dismal if you are a 'vi'
user. Here are the thumb keys (before remapping):
+---+---+ +---+---+
|Ctl|Alt| |Win|Ctl|
+---+---+---+ +---+---+---+
| | |Hom| |PgU| | |
|BS |Del+---| +---+Ret|SP |
| | |End| |PgD| | |
+---+---+---+ +---+---+---+
And here are my thumb keys (after remapping):
+---+---+ +---+---+
|Ctl|Alt| |Alt|Ctl|
+---+---+---+ +---+---+---+
| | |Hom| |PgU| | |
|BS |Del+---| +---+Ret|SP |
| | |Esc| |PgD| | |
+---+---+---+ +---+---+---+
* While researching the keyboard a year ago, I either read or one
of my friends had warned me that at least one person said that
the keyboard might have been a little difficult to use if you
have very small hands. I imagine that would be the case with any
keyboard though.
* It will take some time to become proficient on the keyboard due
to the new placement and reorientation of keys. I believe the
documentation says that you'll be up to speed in 3 weeks, but it
took me a little longer. I was probably back to 80% in 3 weeks,
but it probably took another week or so to get me back to full
speed. Its important that you ONLY use the Kinesis keyboard
during the training period (3 weeks) because you are retraining
your muscular system. They do not recommend going back and forth
between the Kinesis and a regular keyboard during that training
period. Thus, its probably not a good idea to try this out right
before a big deadline.
In addition, I brought my keyboard home each night for the first
three weeks so I was forced to use it until the training period
was over. They provide exercises which I would highly recommend
doing each night. It certainly helped smooth the transition for
me. When I first tried the keyboard, I was concerned I would
never get used to it. Don't be discouraged, it will come to
you. And once you are comfortable with the Kinesis, its trivial
to switch back and forth between a traditional keyboard and the
Kinesis. I no longer bring home my Kinesis each night.
* Price. I was a bit surprised at the cost of the keyboard,
especially compared to these other ergo keyboards; however, after
using the keyboard for a while now, I will never go back to a
traditional keyboard.
* If you use a lot of apps that require the use of a separate
numeric keyboard, there is none on the Kinesis (its embedded and
accessed via a toggle key). Thus, I found it hard to use
programs like Blender (open source 3D graphics app) that makes
extensive use of the keypad.
* I also find that sometimes I can get the keyboard in a state
where one of the modifier keys is "stuck" if you will. Not
physically, but somehow depressed. It doesn't happen very often,
but it seems to only occur when I hit two of the modifiers
simultaneously. To "unstuck" it, I just hit the same two
modifiers simultaneously. Like I said, this rarely occurs, but I
thought since I'm sharing the positive, I should also share the
negative.
I can't seem to think of anything else at the moment, but feel free to
ask me any other questions that you may have.
Thanks,
Pete.
Pete Kazmier <····················@kazmier.com> writes:
[message deleted]
Just wanted to add that I also use and love a Kinesis keyboard.
Terrific product.
rif
On Wed, 27 Oct 2004 18:41:18 +0000, Pete Kazmier wrote:
>
> I was never diagnosed with RSI; however, due to discomfort while
> typing (especially with emacs chords), I purchased the Kinesis
> contoured keyboard:
>
> http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/contoured.htm
>
Wow, that looks like it has huge key-travel (although maybe I'm just
reading too much into the pictures). I've found what works for me is
having the smallest key-travel I can get. My wireless Logitech, for
instance, only requires you to depress each key something like a couple of
millimeters. I would recommend it, but the ALT key has quickly stopped
working on both of the ones I've had.
Cheers,
Bill.
--
"If you give someone Fortran, he has Fortran. If you give someone Lisp,
he has any language he pleases." -- Guy Steele
>>I've found what works for me is having the smallest key-travel I can
get.
You'll like the TouchStream then - absolutely zero travel :)
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&selm=f35836c4.0410270731.36e502dc%40posting.google.com
Chris
On Wed, 27 Oct 2004 16:15:49 -0700, Chris Newcombe wrote:
>>>I've found what works for me is having the smallest key-travel I can
> get.
>
> You'll like the TouchStream then - absolutely zero travel :)
>
> http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&selm=f35836c4.0410270731.36e502dc%40posting.google.com
>
> Chris
Yup, I've been looking at that. Very tempted - looks nice!
Cheers,
Bill.
--
"If you give someone Fortran, he has Fortran. If you give someone Lisp,
he has any language he pleases." -- Guy Steele
sj wrote:
> ...
> Thanks. I looked at the kinesis-ergo site and frankly Im a bit leary of the
> split keyboard design. I bought a Microsoft "ergonomic" keyboard about a
> year ago and couldn't stand the thing. I did read somewhare (possibly in
> the micro inquirer http://www.theinquirer.net/ ) that ms had the hand
> angle wromg so perhaps thats what the problem was
a colleague of mine has RSI problems and is using an ergonomic keyboard
(not MS, but i don't know the make) without problems for a few years
now. you might want to try out a few before settling on one
hs
M Jared Finder <·····@hpalace.com> writes:
> I've been looking for a while at getting a Kinesis ergonomic
> keyboard, but have held back due to pricing. Look at their site at
> http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/. If you end up buying one, please
> report back your experience.
I've been using Kinesis Contour keyboards every day for about four
years now, and, once past the initial adaptation phase, I can barely
type on anything else. The Contour will turn you into a touch typist,
if you aren't one already. To me, its biggest strengths are the
vertical key arrangements (keys are aligned in columns rather than as
staggered rows) and the clustering of the Control, Alt, Backspace,
Delete, Enter, and Space keys in the center.
The keyboards are relatively expensive, but the cost difference is
negligible when weighed against the years of comfort they'll provide
and the pain or even loss of work they'll prevent.
For the record, I switched to DVORAK about three years ago as
well. Some of the Contour models are hot-switchable between QWERTY and
DVORAK, with dual key labels as an option.
--
Steven E. Harris
M Jared Finder <·····@hpalace.com> writes:
> sj wrote:
>> Hi I am increasingly suffering acute RSI to the point I may be
>> faced to give up coding. So far the doctors have offered nothing
>> and I'm wondering what others have done in similar situation. I'm
>> posting this here because i primarily code in lisp (python and Java
>> also). My preferred working environment is emacs on linux. I am
>> half considering moving to windogh and using voice recognition but
>> it seems to me that vr softaware wouldn't handle lisp too well.
>> Anyone have suggestions other then firring my doctors?
>
> I've been looking for a while at getting a Kinesis ergonomic keyboard,
> but have held back due to pricing. Look at their site at
> http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/. If you end up buying one, please report
> back your experience.
I've been using the Kinesis Classic for about 6-7 years. At the last
two jobs I made them buy me one[1] and I've bought several myself for
home. The best thing about them for emacs users is that all the keys
are reprogrammable and they have a cluster of keys under each thumb. I
use the two big right-thumb keys for their original settings, space
and return. But I remap the two big left-thumb keys to Control and Alt
so I have zero wrist twisting for Emacs key chords. And generally the
shape of the keybord--keys arranged in two cups--is quite comfortable
though it does take a bit of getting used to. Several developers at my
last job ended up switching to Kinesis as well.
I don't have any particular problem switching to a regular keyboard,
such as when I use my iBook. I also typically use Dvorak, and have
been for nearly 15 years. (After going through junior-high and high
school as a Qwerty touch typist.)
Since I've relearned to type several times let me also offer this bit
of advice if you decide to try one of these alternatives: just do it.
Switch and don't look back. You'll be slow in the beginning but if you
just make yourself do it it doesn't take that long to retrain
yourself. (Also be sure to relax, particularly if you already have RSI
coming on--I have found that sometimes when I switch keyboard layouts
(such as when I worked for a few weeks on a Windows box that didn't
have the Dvorak layout installed) my hands get tense because I was
thinking too hard about about my typing. It went away in a day or two
(and these days almost all OS's give an out of the box way to switch
layouts) but if you already have problems you don't want to be tensing
up your hands. So just relax and don't worry about your typing speed.
It'll come back and you'll feel great. Of course, YMMV.
-Peter
--
Peter Seibel ·····@javamonkey.com
Lisp is the red pill. -- John Fraser, comp.lang.lisp
sj <··········@_swbell.net> writes:
> I am increasingly suffering acute RSI to the point I may be faced to
> give up coding. So far the doctors have offered nothing and I'm
> wondering what others have done in similar situation. I'm posting
> this here because i primarily code in lisp (python and Java
> also). My preferred working environment is emacs on linux. I am
> half considering moving to windogh and using voice recognition but
> it seems to me that vr softaware wouldn't handle lisp too
> well. Anyone have suggestions other then firring my doctors?
About 8 years ago or so, a co-worker of mine came down with RSI (or
CTS or whatever you want to call it). The rememdies her doctors
provided were:
1. Wearing braces on her wrists to minimize their flexibility.
2. Take frequent breaks from typing (I believe every 10 min).
3. Use anti-inflamatory drugs to keep the swelling down.
If you want to consider using IBM's Via-Voice, I believe it also
runs under Linux, so voice-recognition isn't totally out of the
question. Similarly, Mac OS X supports built-in voice recognition
(note: I haven't tried to use it, so it may suck majorly). This
should give you at least two UNIX-flavored options.
Wrt to trying to use voice-recognition to write lisp code, I'd
suggest that you'd want to create lisp (elisp if you can get VR
working with emacs) functions to auto-parenthesize the forms, and
then link those to voice commands such as "new function", "new let",
"new flet", etc.
--jon
sj <··········@_swbell.net> writes:
> I am increasingly suffering acute RSI to the point I may be faced to give up
> coding. So far the doctors have offered nothing and I'm wondering what
> others have done in similar situation. I'm posting this here because i
> primarily code in lisp (python and Java also). My preferred working
> environment is emacs on linux. I am half considering moving to windogh and
> using voice recognition but it seems to me that vr softaware wouldn't
> handle lisp too well. Anyone have suggestions other then firring my
> doctors?
Alexander Technique lessons and Dasher.
Christophe
sj <··········@_swbell.net> wrote in message news:<····················@newssvr30.news.prodigy.com>...
> Hi
>
> I am increasingly suffering acute RSI...
At the JavaOne conference in 2000, James Gosling said he was having
trouble with this, and that the surgery had helped him.
···············@yahoo.com (Mark McConnell) writes:
> sj <··········@_swbell.net> wrote in message news:<····················@newssvr30.news.prodigy.com>...
>> Hi
>>
>> I am increasingly suffering acute RSI...
>
> At the JavaOne conference in 2000, James Gosling said he was having
> trouble with this, and that the surgery had helped him.
One caveat: As I understand it, from having read a few books on RSI
when I was having problems and from having an M.D. wife (internal
medicine, though, not ortho), the only operable form of RSI is Carpal
Tunnel Syndrom. Consequently CTS is hugely over-diagnosed because it's
the only thing surgeons can "fix". But lots of folks have something
else like tendonitis which is not helped by surgery.
-Peter
--
Peter Seibel ·····@javamonkey.com
Lisp is the red pill. -- John Fraser, comp.lang.lisp
Peter Seibel wrote:
> One caveat: As I understand it, from having read a few books on RSI
> when I was having problems and from having an M.D. wife (internal
> medicine, though, not ortho), the only operable form of RSI is Carpal
> Tunnel Syndrom. Consequently CTS is hugely over-diagnosed because it's
> the only thing surgeons can "fix". But lots of folks have something
> else like tendonitis which is not helped by surgery.
On the other hand, tendonitis is *much* less nasty than CTS
apart from that. If you have tendonitis and stop typing for
a while, it goes away, and there are exercises you can do to
make it less likely to come back. If you have CTS then it
never really goes away (unless you have surgery, which is
not to be undertaken lightly) and so far as I know nothing
other than surgery helps it much.
--
Gareth McCaughan
.sig under construc
In article <····················@newssvr30.news.prodigy.com>,
sj <··········@_swbell.net> wrote:
> Hi
>
> I am increasingly suffering acute RSI to the point I may be faced to give up
> coding. So far the doctors have offered nothing and I'm wondering what
> others have done in similar situation. I'm posting this here because i
> primarily code in lisp (python and Java also). My preferred working
> environment is emacs on linux. I am half considering moving to windogh and
> using voice recognition but it seems to me that vr softaware wouldn't
> handle lisp too well. Anyone have suggestions other then firring my
> doctors?
>
> Thanks
> Steven Jones
My RSI has never been acute, but:
1. Salmon oil capsules. Takes weeks to cut in. Watch that aftertaste. :)
2. Yoga, esp. the Triangle pose. (It ain't just the hands.)
3. Avoid the mouse like the plague. Never double click. Switch the mouse
to the other hand for what mousing you cannot avoid. And get one of
those mousepads with a soft gel cushion for the heel of your palm.
4. Stretch by splaying your fingers, and pull back on the thumb.
5. Mentally relax your wrists. Breathe into them. Neck and shoulders,
too. As they become uncomfortable there is a tendency to focus on them
and increase the tension. Not good.
hth, kt
Matthew Danish <··········@cmu.edu> writes:
> Kenneth Tilton <·······@nyc.rr.com> writes: [snipped]
> ^^^^^^^
> OH MY GOD! THEY KILLED KENNY!
You bastards!
--
An ideal world is left as an excercise to the reader.
--- Paul Graham, On Lisp 8.1
Kenneth Tilton <·······@nyc.rr.com> writes:
> My RSI has never been acute, but:
Mine has been close to acute, but massage has always been able to
keep it from stopping me from working.
> 1. Salmon oil capsules. Takes weeks to cut in. Watch that aftertaste. :)
Interesting, do you know why?
> 2. Yoga, esp. the Triangle pose. (It ain't just the hands.)
I've tried that, but I'm the kind of naturally stiff person that
feels incredibly ridiculous doing yoga :)
> 3. Avoid the mouse like the plague. Never double click. Switch the mouse
> to the other hand for what mousing you cannot avoid. And get one of
> those mousepads with a soft gel cushion for the heel of your palm.
Hmm. My left shoulder/arm (and fingers) is worse than the right.
I guess I have a EscapeMetaAltShiftControl-arm, and not a mouse-arm :)
I'd like to add a few tips:
- Try varying how you sit. Right now I'm working from home, and sitting
on a sofa with a laptop in my lap, for me that is a great break from
the usual work position at a table. The most dangerous position, imho,
is using a normal desk as a underarm-rest, you usually end up pushing
your shoulders forwards, which usually is very bad.
- Don't underestimate psychological sources of stress. When I first got
hit by RSI, it was after some unpleasant organisational changes at
my employer. As things got better, so did I. And then, a few years
later, there were some changes that really didn't fit me, I quit
my job and found a new position which I really liked, and since then
I got much better.
--
(espen)
>>>>> "EV" == Espen Vestre <·····@*do-not-spam-me*.vestre.net> writes:
[...]
EV> Hmm. My left shoulder/arm (and fingers) is worse than the
EV> right. I guess I have a EscapeMetaAltShiftControl-arm, and
EV> not a mouse-arm :) [...]
Mine too! Measurably so (BTW I love the way that diagnostic device
works.)
EV> I'd like to add a few tips: [...]
One more:
You can also damage your ulnar nerve by leaning on your elbows. I
managed to do that by using my 15" notebook in economy class while
flying coast to coast. Don't do it. (it fixes itself after a
while).
cheers,
BM
Bulent Murtezaoglu <··@acm.org> writes:
> You can also damage your ulnar nerve by leaning on your elbows. I
> managed to do that by using my 15" notebook in economy class while
> flying coast to coast. Don't do it. (it fixes itself after a
> while).
Good point. Btw., 15" notebooks are also dangerous, if you aren't
flying first class, chances are that you can't work comfortably with
anything larger than a 12".... (I just discovered this a few months
ago as I got a 12" PowerBook in addition to my 15" linux laptop, it's
simply not enough room for a larger laptop on most planes, trains
(or ferries, in my case :-)).
--
(espen)
I use a different work table than the 'experts' suggest and can handle
up to 12 hours straight without problems. It's basic mechanics, what
are you supporting where? If you use the crap that is generally
supplied, you should notice that your wrists are a support point for
your arm...not very smart, and then your wrists are bent at nearly
right angles to your arms...even dumber.
I use a deep setback monitor with keyboard also far away. My elbows
rest on the work table, in fact from the elbow to the wrist lies
'down'. I use a very low keyboard without those dangerous rear
supports, so that the keyboard is nearly flat. Thus my arms are flat,
my wrists are only inclined at shallow angles and only support my
hands. I get plenty of blood flow in the hands, there is little
muscle stretch normally, and I have a relaxed body posture. With that
space in front of the keyboard, my hands easily rest while reviewing
on-screen.
I don't happen to use a mouse, since you don't need to pickup and
recenter a trackball (a large ball spins easy), but I don't use that
often enough to claim that it is important. Getting the chair height
correct, so that the elbows are just hanging down normally to reach
the work surface is important.
Good luck
--
Brownian motion is correctly colored.
In article <·································@teranews>,
FormerPerlHacker <········@CloudDancer.com> wrote:
> I use a different work table than the 'experts' suggest and can handle
> up to 12 hours straight without problems. It's basic mechanics, what
> are you supporting where? If you use the crap that is generally
> supplied, you should notice that your wrists are a support point for
> your arm...not very smart, and then your wrists are bent at nearly
> right angles to your arms...even dumber.
>
> I use a deep setback monitor with keyboard also far away. My elbows
> rest on the work table, in fact from the elbow to the wrist lies
> 'down'. I use a very low keyboard without those dangerous rear
> supports, so that the keyboard is nearly flat. Thus my arms are flat,
> my wrists are only inclined at shallow angles and only support my
> hands. I get plenty of blood flow in the hands, there is little
> muscle stretch normally, and I have a relaxed body posture. With that
> space in front of the keyboard, my hands easily rest while reviewing
> on-screen.
Sounds good. But re the wrists being the supports, I just remembered
that when my wrists were the worst I go tremendous relief from wrist
braces. Finding some that slipped on/off easily was key to actually
using them. And I got ones with a metal brace so I could rest my wrists
on the edge of the desk with the braces serving as skids if you will.
Nothing eliminates the discomfort, but it does become manageable. But
every wrist is different, so mileage will vary.
kenny
FormerPerlHacker <········@CloudDancer.com> writes:
> I use a deep setback monitor with keyboard also far away. My elbows
> rest on the work table, in fact from the elbow to the wrist lies
> 'down'. I use a very low keyboard without those dangerous rear
The problem with this solution is that many people tend to push the
shoulders forward - I'm one of them, and trying something similar
to what you sketch didn't work at all for me. But of course YMMV.
--
(espen)
Kenneth Tilton <·······@nyc.rr.com> wrote:
> My RSI has never been acute, but:
[snip]
> 3. Avoid the mouse like the plague. Never double click. Switch the mouse
> to the other hand for what mousing you cannot avoid. And get one of
> those mousepads with a soft gel cushion for the heel of your palm.
Alternately:
Get a cheap Wacom tablet. Switching between mouse and pen (tap for
click, click a button on the side for double- or right-click) every once
in a while staved off some numbness in my mousing hand before it got
bad.
--
Karl A. Krueger <········@example.edu> { s/example/whoi/ }
Every program has at least one bug and can be shortened by at least one line.
By induction, every program can be reduced to one line which does not work.
Kenneth Tilton advised:
> 3. Avoid the mouse like the plague.
I've been planning to do major surgery on my mouse, adding
fine wires to a second set of buttons. Then I can put the
mouse on the floor, push it around with my right foot and press
the buttons with my left foot.
I've been encourged in this by discovering that X works with
multiple mice. It just adds the motions. It also lets you
have coarser resolution for the foot mouse.
I've been discouraged by a mystery ache in my right hip, and
the fact that my wrists are fine, so lots of other things
seem more important.
Alan Crowe
Edinburgh
Scotland
[...]
sj> Hi I am increasingly suffering acute RSI to the point I may be
sj> faced to give up coding. So far the doctors have offered
sj> nothing and I'm wondering what others have done in similar
sj> situation.
They offered nothing? What kind do you have? I was diagnosed with
CTS about 10 years ago. In my case the final straw that made my
hands go excessively numb was not typing but changing the O2
sensor on a hard to reach exhaust manifold on a VW. They basically
said I can try to live with it while avoiding the kinds of strain that
aggravates it or get surgery done. I didn't get surgery done, figuring
the techniques would improve over the years since so many people were
getting it. If it gets bad, I take OTC anti-inflammatories. I also
quit monkeying with cars. My hands are still numb somewhat but I got
used to it. It hasn't gotten worse overall.
sj> ... Anyone have
sj> suggestions other then firring my doctors?
I am assuming you have been shown what you should try to avoid doing.
Since the MDs offered nothing, perhaps a second opinion (w/o firing)
is worth it. I am assuming you are in the US (my experience was also
in the US). I'd also ask around elsewhere, there may be palliative
treatments or cures used elsewhere that have not been FDA-approved.
best of luck to you,
BM
> I am increasingly suffering acute RSI to the point I may be faced to give up
> coding. So far the doctors have offered nothing and I'm wondering what
> others have done in similar situation.
I was suddenly hit with RSI symptoms early this year, after years of
intense coding. The solution I found was radical but pretty amazing:
http://www.fingerworks.com/lp_product.html
It's not cheap (you can find it new for under $300), but I couldn't
work without it now. In fact I bought two; one for home, one for
work, as I found my RSI symptoms would immediately return at home.
The TouchStream has specific support for programmers. e.g. It has easy
chords for control and alt (no more reaching for keys), gesture-sets
for linux and Emacs, and a 'programmer's punctuation pad' that amongst
other things places both parentheses and hyphen on home-row. You can
reconfigure essentially everything via a terrific GUI (you can
download the gui and play with it before buying). The 'add-on'
XWinder application for window manipulation is also great.
Here is my review on Amazon.com (disclosure; I work for Amazon as an
engineer in back-end systems. My opinions are not necessarily those of
my employer, etc. etc.).
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/asin/B0001597YO
The user-discussion forum on the FingerWorks site has many RSI
stories; you may find other hints there.
Here is a comparison of several ergonomic keyboards, which the
TouchStream won, even though they only used it for a week, which isn't
really long enough to recover your previous typing speed.
http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,1558,1034116,00.asp
Other people I know have used the Kinesis keyboard with great success.
If the TouchStream LP doesn't suit you (but do give it time!), then
I'd suggest the Kinesis. If you do get a TouchStream then let me know,
and I'll email you my own hints and customizations.
I hope this helps,
Chris
sj <··········@_swbell.net> writes:
> I am increasingly suffering acute RSI to the point I may be faced to
> give up coding. So far the doctors have offered nothing and I'm
> wondering what others have done in similar situation. I'm posting
> this here because i primarily code in lisp (python and Java
> also). My preferred working environment is emacs on linux. I am
> half considering moving to windogh and using voice recognition but
> it seems to me that vr softaware wouldn't handle lisp too
> well. Anyone have suggestions other then firring my doctors?
You might consider switching to the Dvorak keyboard layout. Although
Dvorak has a reputation as being faster, the real advantage is that it
is so much more comfortable to type on. This is because it is
designed to minimise finger movement; effectively the opposite to
Qwerty's design motivation (stopping the hammers in typewriters from
getting tangled).
Anyway, this is a good site with more info:
http://www.mwbrooks.com/dvorak/
You might also try getting an ergonomic keyboard.
Cheers,
Iain
Iain Little <······@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<··············@yahoo.com>...
> sj <··········@_swbell.net> writes:
>
> > I am increasingly suffering acute RSI to the point I may be faced to
> > give up coding. So far the doctors have offered nothing and I'm
> > wondering what others have done in similar situation. I'm posting
> > this here because i primarily code in lisp (python and Java
> > also). My preferred working environment is emacs on linux. I am
> > half considering moving to windogh and using voice recognition but
> > it seems to me that vr softaware wouldn't handle lisp too
> > well. Anyone have suggestions other then firring my doctors?
>
> You might consider switching to the Dvorak keyboard layout. Although
> Dvorak has a reputation as being faster, the real advantage is that it
> is so much more comfortable to type on. This is because it is
> designed to minimise finger movement; effectively the opposite to
> Qwerty's design motivation (stopping the hammers in typewriters from
> getting tangled).
What reduces the likelihood of hammers becoming stuck together is hand
alternation, which Qwerty promotes.
Hammers that are close together and are struck at nearly the same time
get stuck, because the arcs of their movement are very parallel, and
so their paths conflict way before the striking position. Hammers from
opposite side of the semicircular arrangement conflict only very close
to the striking position. The problem there is not so much jamming as
one hammer hitting the back of the other.
Interestingly, the promotion of hand alternation is also claimed to be
an advantage of Dvorak. If that is true, Dvorak should actually work
well on those old classic typewriters.
Kaz Kylheku wrote:
> Interestingly, the promotion of hand alternation is also claimed to be
> an advantage of Dvorak. If that is true, Dvorak should actually work
> well on those old classic typewriters.
The reason for qwerty was, apparently, to reduce typing speed to the point
where keys didn't get stuck together. It appears to have succeeded, as that
never happens on my keyboard.
Dvorak, on the other hand, is meant to make typing fast. Alternating between
hands obviously helps this, and if qwerty also lets you alternate then that
is probably an oversight.
···@ashi.footprints.net (Kaz Kylheku) writes:
> What reduces the likelihood of hammers becoming stuck together is hand
> alternation, which Qwerty promotes.
>
> Hammers that are close together and are struck at nearly the same time
> get stuck, because the arcs of their movement are very parallel, and
> so their paths conflict way before the striking position. Hammers from
> opposite side of the semicircular arrangement conflict only very close
> to the striking position. The problem there is not so much jamming as
> one hammer hitting the back of the other.
>
> Interestingly, the promotion of hand alternation is also claimed to be
> an advantage of Dvorak. If that is true, Dvorak should actually work
> well on those old classic typewriters.
I doubt it, as Dvorak places some very common letter pairs (in the
English language) on adjacent keys. For example, "ch", "th" and "wh"
are all typed by the RH middle finger, followed by the RH index
finger. The hammers for these positions would be very close together,
and they frequently get struck in very rapid succession.
My guess is that the hammers would clash every time you type "the", as
"th" uses the two strongest (and adjacent) fingers of the RH in their
home positions, so the keys get pressed almost simultaneously.
On Wed, 27 Oct 2004 04:44:05 GMT, sj <··········@_swbell.net> wrote:
>Hi
>
>I am increasingly suffering acute RSI to the point I may be faced to give up
>coding. So far the doctors have offered nothing and I'm wondering what
>others have done in similar situation. I'm posting this here because i
>primarily code in lisp (python and Java also).
Along with keyboard and mouse adjustments that others have talked
about, I've found that soaking my hands in hot and cold water
alternatively as described in various RSI books has helped.
JP Massar <······@alum.mit.edu> writes:
> On Wed, 27 Oct 2004 04:44:05 GMT, sj <··········@_swbell.net> wrote:
>
>>Hi
>>
>>I am increasingly suffering acute RSI to the point I may be faced to
>>give up coding. So far the doctors have offered nothing and I'm
>>wondering what others have done in similar situation. I'm posting
>>this here because i primarily code in lisp (python and Java also).
>
> Along with keyboard and mouse adjustments that others have talked
> about, I've found that soaking my hands in hot and cold water
> alternatively as described in various RSI books has helped.
Second that.
-Peter
--
Peter Seibel ·····@javamonkey.com
Lisp is the red pill. -- John Fraser, comp.lang.lisp
In article <··············@javamonkey.com>,
Peter Seibel <·····@javamonkey.com> wrote:
> JP Massar <······@alum.mit.edu> writes:
>
> > On Wed, 27 Oct 2004 04:44:05 GMT, sj <··········@_swbell.net> wrote:
> >
> >>Hi
> >>
> >>I am increasingly suffering acute RSI to the point I may be faced to
> >>give up coding. So far the doctors have offered nothing and I'm
> >>wondering what others have done in similar situation. I'm posting
> >>this here because i primarily code in lisp (python and Java also).
> >
> > Along with keyboard and mouse adjustments that others have talked
> > about, I've found that soaking my hands in hot and cold water
> > alternatively as described in various RSI books has helped.
>
> Second that.
Could someone be more specific? Sounds like fun. :)
re the short key-travel, i was reminded that for a while i experimented
with gently touching the keys so as not to strike bottom so hard or even
at all. Instant relief. Not sure why I did not culivate the habit,
perhaps because my RSI is not so bad.
kenny
Kenneth Tilton <·······@nyc.rr.com> writes:
> In article <··············@javamonkey.com>,
> Peter Seibel <·····@javamonkey.com> wrote:
>
>> JP Massar <······@alum.mit.edu> writes:
>>
>> > On Wed, 27 Oct 2004 04:44:05 GMT, sj <··········@_swbell.net> wrote:
>> >
>> >>Hi
>> >>
>> >>I am increasingly suffering acute RSI to the point I may be faced to
>> >>give up coding. So far the doctors have offered nothing and I'm
>> >>wondering what others have done in similar situation. I'm posting
>> >>this here because i primarily code in lisp (python and Java also).
>> >
>> > Along with keyboard and mouse adjustments that others have talked
>> > about, I've found that soaking my hands in hot and cold water
>> > alternatively as described in various RSI books has helped.
>>
>> Second that.
>
> Could someone be more specific? Sounds like fun. :)
Okay, here's how I do it. Of course I tend to overdo things--how do
you think I dorked up my wrists in the first place so I can't say this
is necessarily recommended practice:
a. Fill one pitcher with cold water and a tray or two of ice cubes,
leaving room for you to immerse you hand and wrist without
overflowing.
b. Fill another pitcher with scalding hot water, again leaving room
for as much of your hand and wrist will fit into pitcher without
bending your wrist at some weird angle.
c. Stick affected hand in ice water. Scream in agony until the
numbing takes the edge off. Leave in for 1-4 minutes.
d. Move affected hand to hot water. If you timed it just right the
water has cooled just enough that you avoid parboiling your hand.
Leave in for 1 minute. Move your fingers around some.
e. Go to c until you get bored or the water in both pitchers has gone
tepid.
I also periodically freshen up the hot water by filling a mug from the
hot-water pitcher and microwaving it for a minute while I'm soaking in
the cold water and then putting it back in the hot pitcher when I'm
ready to switch. But I'm pretty weird.
-Peter
--
Peter Seibel ·····@javamonkey.com
Lisp is the red pill. -- John Fraser, comp.lang.lisp
sj wrote:
> preferred working
> environment is emacs on linux.
emacs, eh? Move your control key to where it's supposed to be, next to A
Option "XkbOptions" "ctrl:swapcaps"
in the relevant section (keyboard input device) in your XF86Config
will swap left ctrl and capslock, or use ctrl:nocaps to make both
keys ctrl.
> Anyone have suggestions other then firring my doctors?
>
How are you holding your hands?
Here's what works for me (but note this does not constitute medical
advice - could make your problem worse for all I know!)
I've never suffered from keyboard-induced RSI in particular. I usually
hold my hands hovering loosely above the keyboard when typing, wrists
straight, palms pretty flat, fingers pointing down, unlike some who
rest their wrists on the table while typing, which just feels
uncomfortable and nasty to me. And I think I move my arms more than
most people when typing, I don't bend my wrists much.
Most likely this is the only legacy of a misguided attempt to force me
to learn to play the piano as a child. Anyway, seems to have saved my
hands thus far.
Low-quality keyboards do annoy me: keys need to have a decent travel
and "clicky" feel, and you should be able to rest your hands lightly
_on the keyboard_ without triggering any key. On cheap keyboards, it's
very tiring to have to be careful about not pressing keys during
pauses, when I could just let my hands flop down to rest on a decent
keyboard.
Cheap EUR/USD 10 keyboards are to be avoided. If you want a conventional
keyboard, the big old IBM-style keyboards are great, you should be able
to source them from http://www.pckeyboard.com/
Maltron keyboards look strange but have a very good reputation in the
UK&Ireland. http://www.maltron.co.uk/
> Hi
>
> I am increasingly suffering acute RSI to the point I may be faced to give up
> coding. So far the doctors have offered nothing and I'm wondering what
> others have done in similar situation. I'm posting this here because i
> primarily code in lisp (python and Java also). My preferred working
> environment is emacs on linux. I am half considering moving to windogh and
> using voice recognition but it seems to me that vr softaware wouldn't
> handle lisp too well. Anyone have suggestions other then firring my
> doctors?
Hi Steve,
Someone else on this list mentioned it already: Alexander Technique
may be a way to make your problem bearable, and even solve it. RSI and
related problems often are a sign of misuse of your whole body (not
just your wrists, arms or shoulders), so the solution should be aimed
at improving the use of your entire body (and mind, when it comes to
that), not at fighting the symptoms.
It's usually not the keyboard, chair, mouse, monitor or other hardware
that causes the problem: it's you, the way you use it. If you slump or
stiffen your shoulders on a kitchen chair, you're just as likely to
slump or stiffen your shoulders in the most expensive office chair,
because it's a habit that's hard to kill. This is something that
regular doctors and physiotherapists often don't realize.
A good Alexander teacher can spot problematic usage in a few lessons,
and probably give you some instant tips to prevent your situation from
becoming worse. Actually curing RSI may take a bit longer, but it can
be done. Besides, Alexander Technique is a great hobby, especially for
people who like a good challenge.
For more information about Alexander Technique and RSI, check:
http://www.alexandertechnique.com/articles/JoanArnRSI/
http://www.crazycolour.com/os/rsi_05.shtml
http://www.alextech-city.co.uk/atc/Alextech/rsi.htm
http://www.alexandy.dircon.co.uk/RSIcasestudy.html
All the best,
Maaike
I have had it relatively mildly but what has helped me was resting,
ie. not to type for too long in a row.
If you use emacs a lot, there is a mode called 'type-break-mode' that
will help you remember to take a break. It is pretty annoying at
first, it keeps interrupting you but this is what it is supposed to do :-)
Also as others have said, shift the mouse between the right and left
hand. It is difficult at first to use the mouse with the "wrong" hand
but with a bit of stubbornnessyou will get the hang of it. I used one
hand at work and another hand at home.
There was a guy at my university who very big problems with RSI and
tried pretty much everything. One thing he noticed with
voicerecognition is that there is a limit to how long a time you can
use your voice. How often do you talk constantly for a whole day?
Reprogramming the mouse buttons (I like button 1 at the index finger
always) is as simple as in this script:
#!/bin/sh
case "$1" in
'left')
echo "Left handed mouse"
xmodmap -e 'pointer = 3 2 1' || xmodmap -e 'pointer = 3 2 1 4 5'
;;
'right')
echo "Right handed mouse"
xmodmap -e 'pointer = 1 2 3' || xmodmap -e 'pointer = 1 2 3 4 5'
;;
'default')
echo "Default mouse"
xmodmap -e 'pointer = default'
;;
*)
echo "Usage: mouse { left | right | default }"
;;
esac
I found that the emacs type-break mode could do with a little fixing,
here is what I have i my .emacs, relating to it. Bitrot alert: it may
not all be equally necessary on emacs21 (this has evolved across a
number of year):
;;; TypeBreak
(provide 'package-typebreak)
(require 'timer) ;this is a typo in the type-beak.el lib
(setq type-break-demo-functions '(type-break-demo-life))
(setq type-break-demo-functions '(type-break-demo-counting))
(setq type-break-interval (* 60 30 1)
type-break-good-rest-interval (/ type-break-interval 10)
type-break-idle-interval (* 2 type-break-good-rest-interval)
type-break-keystroke-threshold
(let* ((wpm 20)
(avg-word-length 5)
(upper (* wpm avg-word-length (/ type-break-interval 60)))
(lower (/ upper 5)))
(cons lower upper)))
(setq type-break-time-warning-intervals nil
type-break-keystroke-warning-intervals nil)
(setq type-break-query-mode nil)
(if (not (member (user-real-login-name) '("tedchly" "chl" "lynbech")))
(setq type-break-interval nil))
(type-break-mode 1)
(if (= emacs-major-version 20)
(progn
(type-break-mode-line-message-mode -1)
(type-break-schedule) ;scheduling seems to have problems under emacs 20.
))
;;This does not work under 19.29 - emacs is permanently frozen
(defun type-break-demo-counting ()
"`Counting' type break demo.
This demo displays the latest type-break statistics and freezes emacs for
the duration of the break \(determined by `type-break-good-rest-interval'\).
During the break, a countdown in seconds is displayed in the echo area.
Once through, it alerts the user by running `type-break-demo-hook'."
(interactive)
(let ((rest type-break-good-rest-interval)
(sec-str "")
(gran 1))
(save-window-excursion
(while (progn (message (concat "Rest and relax. "
"Time remaining: %2d minutes %2d seconds")
(/ rest 60) (% rest 60))
(and (> rest 0)
(sit-for gran)
(setq rest (- rest gran)))))
(if (> rest 0)
(progn
(message "You really ought to rest for another %2d:%02d minutes."
(/ rest 60) (% rest 60))
(sleep-for 5))
(run-hooks 'type-break-demo-hook)
(message "Get back to work")))))
(add-hook 'type-break-demo-hook
(lambda () (type-break-statistics) (sit-for 0)))
;;; fix bugs
(require 'type-break) ;make sure we have loaded all functions
;;the original definition does not cater for emacs20
(setq type-break-emacs-variant 'standard19) ;type-break must have been loaded
;;there is a problem under emacs 20, preventing type-breaks from ever
;;running. The problem is that the keystroke count is only updated
;;very seldom, and thus in practice prevents type-breaks from
;;occurring. The problem is that calls to `this-command-keys' from
;;`post-command-hook' (which type-break does to maintain the keystroke
;;count) consistently returns the empty string, thus adding only zero
;;to the keystroke count. The following hack moves the hook from the
;;`post-command-hook' to the `pre-command-hook' which seems to fix
;;things.
(defun my-tb-pre-hook ()
"Count number of keystrokes and add them to `type-break-keystroke-count'."
;;from type-break.el
(let ((keys (this-command-keys)))
(cond
;; Ignore mouse motion
((and (vectorp keys)
(consp (aref keys 0))
(memq (car (aref keys 0)) '(mouse-movement))))
(t
(setq type-break-keystroke-count
(+ type-break-keystroke-count (length keys)))))))
;(defun type-break-check-post-command-hook-emacs20 ()
; )
(if (= emacs-major-version 20)
(progn
(fset 'type-break-check-post-command-hook-orig
(symbol-function 'type-break-check-post-command-hook))
(add-hook 'pre-command-hook 'my-tb-pre-hook)
; (fset 'type-break-check-post-command-hook
; (symbol-function 'type-break-check-post-command-hook-emacs20))
; (remove-hook 'post-command-hook 'type-break-run-tb-post-command-hook)
; (type-break-check-post-command-hook))
))
;;; package-typebreak.el ends here.
------------------------+-----------------------------------------------------
Christian Lynbech | christian ··@ defun #\. dk
------------------------+-----------------------------------------------------
Hit the philistines three times over the head with the Elisp reference manual.
- ·······@hal.com (Michael A. Petonic)
K/B is not a problem for me, but the mouse has been, on occasion -
especilly all that *&%# double-clicking. I switched the buttons round
for a while, which I'm sure helped to prevent RSI. It is quite a good
excercise in mental awareness, too :-) !!
Otherwise, lots of breaks, and loosening up excercises, and you should
be all right...
While on this very interesting OT topic, do most people press SHIFT-9/0
for brackets? While coding Lisp????
Since my K/B already has a numeric pad, I swap the top row "Shifts", so
that �!"$%^&*()� don't need a shift. But even this could be improved.
Are there any "recommended" Lisp keymaps out there?
If I had to switch to voice-rec, I'd still want a (maybe specially
built) button pad for things that are not easy to speak, like
parentheses, etc.
I would also like to evaluate the Eclipse IDE, for things like command
completion. Haven't had time to do so yet. Anyone tried it?
I am no emacs jockey, and any labor saving is good, in my book.
I like the comand completion on things like JBuilder.
--
My apologies for not leaving a handy e-mail address for spammers.
Use alex_gian ATT yahoo Decimal cawm (if you must)
You know how to compose this...
Alex Gian <········@junkmail.for.alex.com> writes:
> While on this very interesting OT topic, do most people press
> SHIFT-9/0 for brackets? While coding Lisp????
The MIT keyboards (and probably the SAIL keyboards before them,
but I don't remember) had the parens on unshifted keys, about
where you find {}[] on modern keyboards.
······@news.dtpq.com (Christopher C. Stacy) writes:
> Alex Gian <········@junkmail.for.alex.com> writes:
> > While on this very interesting OT topic, do most people press
> > SHIFT-9/0 for brackets? While coding Lisp????
>
> The MIT keyboards (and probably the SAIL keyboards before them,
> but I don't remember) had the parens on unshifted keys, about
> where you find {}[] on modern keyboards.
I know a lot of lisp people remap these keys, just switch '[' and
'('. That's what I do.
--
Fred Gilham ······@csl.sri.com
``This is mere entertainment featuring fictional characters. No real
human relationships were shattered in the making of this TV series.''
From: Marco Baringer
Subject: Re: OT Reptitive Strain Injury
Date:
Message-ID: <m23bzx4suc.fsf@bese.it>
Alex Gian <········@junkmail.for.alex.com> writes:
> Are there any "recommended" Lisp keymaps out there?
i don't think it's "recommended" or anything, but maybe this'll give
you a few ideas:
http://www.cliki.net/Editing%20Lisp%20Code%20with%20Emacs
--
-Marco
Ring the bells that still can ring.
Forget your perfect offering.
There is a crack in everything.
That's how the light gets in.
-Leonard Cohen
From: Richard Putman
Subject: Re: OT Reptitive Strain Injury
Date:
Message-ID: <4qk6ww15.fsf@physics.org>
"Marco Baringer" <··@bese.it> writes:
> Alex Gian <········@junkmail.for.alex.com> writes:
>
>> Are there any "recommended" Lisp keymaps out there?
>
> i don't think it's "recommended" or anything, but maybe this'll give
> you a few ideas:
>
> http://www.cliki.net/Editing%20Lisp%20Code%20with%20Emacs
>
Thats a nice link. I've often thought that a reasonable indication of
a developer's ability was the degree to which they modified their
tools to fit their preferences, instead of the other way around.
I remember feeling fairly smug with my 1000+ line xemacs config and
programmable Orktek MCK-142Pro keyboard until I was floored by this
post of Erik's keyboard remapping
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3244633165773164%40naggum.no
... seems like some people are programming at an entirely different
level to me.
--
Richard