If ILC 2004 is actually already scheduled and I just don't know about
it, fantastic, and if not, why? Is it biennial by design?
I think I read somewhere that there will be an ILC 2005, and, being
that there are still 3 months in 2004, I guess there could even be an
ILC 2004, if someone got into getting it done.
matt knox wrote:
> If ILC 2004 is actually already scheduled and I just don't know about
> it, fantastic, and if not, why? Is it biennial by design?
>
> I think I read somewhere that there will be an ILC 2005, and, being
> that there are still 3 months in 2004, I guess there could even be an
> ILC 2004, if someone got into getting it done.
The ALU cites risk as the main factor. Will there be enough attendees?
For the last ALU (and no doubt the ones previous) people apparently had
to risk personal money to pay the costs, until attendance could be
assured.
Note that this year already had a number of successful getogethers, of
~30-40 Lisp users. As both ECOOP and OOPSLA are strongly receptive to
more Lisp involvement for next year, this number is sure to rise. And I
hear it's important those two conferences have strong papers featuring
Lisp, if that interest is to be maintained.
I am trying to get as many records from the ALU as I can, including
minutes, financial info, etc. Because the danger is that Lisp users are
infantilized into not being able to accomplish their own objectives,
leaving it up to some political organization they know virtually
nothing about. I think the ALU is currently valuable in terms of the
lessons one can learn from it.
The problem is that people may ask privileges of the ALU, rather than
use it to accomplish their objectives more easily. When I was disturbed
they were having a private meeting and decided it was vital I attend, I
was discouraged for the reason that people may start talking about
ideas too infeasible to grant. (This was an idea-gathering meeting.) In
other words, Lispers may act like nagging children who have enough
money to pay for a conference, but not the mental capacity for
organizing it. Similar to the attitude of some Lisp users towards
newbies who want a huge host of libraries ready for them.
One may be tempted to quote Milton; "Those who have put out the
peoples' eyes, reproach them for their blindness." But if we do not
take some initiative, they will be justified in reproaching us. (Keep
in mind I'm not beating up on you -- this is actually more
self-critical than anything else.)
If you check out the Benelux or Cologne lispniks mailing lists, I was
interested in starting a discussion on the role the ALU should play in
the modern lisp world. After a small critique, I wrote some random
ideas which may help serve as a starting-point for better ideas. Keep
in mind the ALU president's talk mentioned certification:
---------
Modern Lisp users are very self-sufficient. Lispers evolve structures
to accomplish objectives. All we want is information, and we can
proceed from there. My view of the ALU's legitimate role is to help
facilitate and amplify what Lispers are going to accomplish anyway.
Like an enzyme which lowers the activation energy of a reaction.
The ALU once evolved out of the Symbolics User Group. Now it is
evolving out of Common Lisp User Groups, as well as the various
internet communities. Here are some ideas that I want to find an
appropriate forum for. They're rough, but may be seeds of something:
Certification:
Currently, opensource is invading the territory previously claimed by
certification bodies. After all, what could be better than a corpus of
code to analyze, transparent mailing lists where you can see a person's
decisions, and users to interview? If there is a project which you
admire, you can ask around for recommendations on who to hire.
One possible solution is inspired from Arthur's slides. If you recall
them, he shows off copious examples of opensource code for educational
purposes. If intelligently harnessed, some issues might be at least
partially solved:
- Peoples' opensource code could be featured, which helps developer
reputation for jobs, while rewarding them for contributing code that
strengthens Lisp.
- Provides educational material that doesn't have to be invented all
from scratch.
- May help show people which libraries have quality -- a softer hand
than "blessing official implementations." In the Java community, a
little research always uncovers much better XML implementations than
the officially blessed ones.
Compared to certification, this is a low-cost structure. And not
mutually exclusive with certification. More Lispy than big upfront
design.
Tactical fundraising:
Another idea is based on the observation that people do not want to pay
a yearly membership fee for questionable, vague returns on that
investment. However, there seems to be an explicit demand for paying
directly for things like recordings of talks. The problem with
recording talks is that people HATE being recorded. I've got some great
high-quality recordings lying around from another meeting, but in our
cold world it happens that people get in trouble for speaking their
mind.
One solution is to have payment for more formal talks. If N
euros/dollars can be raised through (say) PayPal, a videotaped talk can
be released under an appropriate opencontent license. The bandwidth
situation is actually NO disadvantage, because I am certain Archive.org
will host any quality recording. (Its goal is to be a fireproof Library
of Alexandria, serving terabytes of free video with fast connections.)
This may be combined with Pascal's monastery idea. (Where people pay to
go to a monastery for a few days with a good Lisp teacher. I went to a
similar event sponsored by Apple, its "kitchen" in Salamanca, Spain.)
This can work because there is little risk to anyone. If not enough
money is raised, then we learn something and return the money.
The interactivity problem is solved. I know of an atheist who has a
weekly video show through Shoutcast where he takes questions from IRC
and answers them in real time. We can do this too.
I notice that Kuro5hin.org was able to raise $37,000 in 2002 with a
fundraising drive. I have been part of that community. And I think the
Lisp community is at least as self-sufficent and passionate.
http://wired.com/news/business/0,1367,53386,00.html
The only issue is to get someone skilled enough to deal with
audio/video. The ILC 2002 recordings were atrocious quality and we
can't repeat that.
MfG,
Tayssir
Tayssir John Gabbour wrote:
> I am trying to get as many records from the ALU as I can, including
> minutes, financial info, etc. Because the danger is that Lisp users are
> infantilized into not being able to accomplish their own objectives,
> leaving it up to some political organization they know virtually
> nothing about.
Nice fantasy! The ALU is an impotent non-entity trying to become an
entity of some value to a vanishingly small albeit vastly superior
programming community and you are concerned about Big Brother?!
PWUUAAAAHHAAAHHAHHAAAAAAHHAHAHAHA!
I am CL's biggest booster, but I think we might want to hold off another
year before indulging delusions of grandeur and the requisite paranoia.
kenny
--
Cells? Cello? Celtik?: http://www.common-lisp.net/project/cells/
Why Lisp? http://alu.cliki.net/RtL%20Highlight%20Film
Kenny Tilton wrote:
> Tayssir John Gabbour wrote:
> > I am trying to get as many records from the ALU as I can, including
> > minutes, financial info, etc. Because the danger is that Lisp users
are
> > infantilized into not being able to accomplish their own
objectives,
> > leaving it up to some political organization they know virtually
> > nothing about.
>
> Nice fantasy! The ALU is an impotent non-entity trying to become an
> entity of some value to a vanishingly small albeit vastly superior
> programming community and you are concerned about Big Brother?!
>
> PWUUAAAAHHAAAHHAHHAAAAAAHHAHAHAHA!
Whoa Kenny, I actually thought of you while writing that long post.
That part about calling the previous ALU president a "fearless leader,"
and then with the McCarthy laptop fetish; both topics which the current
ALU president touched upon in his Amsterdam speech. Weird. ;)
You are right in saying that the ALU is small. But of course it has
every intention of changing that. And it has sufficiently intelligent
people interested in accomplishing this goal. Its entire goal is to
represent and provide services for Lisp users, and my criticism is not
aimed at the ALU -- but at the situation where the ALU is worried that
Lispers are infants and must keep info from them.
Specifically to your rhetorical point, you claim the Lisp community is
"vanishingly small." This directly contradicts the ALU president's
speech two weeks ago. Which I happen to have not only on tape, but I've
written out a text transcript this weekend. I am waiting for permission
to release it.
Contradicting you again, he criticizes the Benevolent Dictator
mentality where people look to a central figure rather than acting with
self-sufficiency. My only point, if you reread my post, is I want more
participation and less "What can some guys I don't know do for me?" Do
you disagree?
If you claim the ALU's an "impotent non-entity," then since you're an
impotent member on its impotent extended board, are you seriously
inviting me to partially blame you for that state? I don't think you're
a non-entity.
> I am CL's biggest booster, but I think we might want to hold off
another
> year before indulging delusions of grandeur and the requisite
paranoia.
I don't think you're CL's biggest booster if you call Lisp users
"vastly superior." That is an interesting view I've seen among Lispers
in the past, which has mercifully toned down. It gave rise to excesses
where people publicly criticized Java without knowing the first thing
of programming in it. Lisp itself may be superior, but the people who
use it just happen to be reasonably intelligent people around at the
right time. Doesn't make you special.
Here is one case where the Python community is "superior" to Lisp's.
These are the minutes of the Python Software Foundation's meetings,
back to 2001:
http://www.python.org/psf/records/
I put in a request for the ALU's minutes, which was forwarded to the
board, and while I haven't gotten a response, hopefully it will
eventually come. I am willing to pay for a FedEx and, going back as far
as 1991, scan in each one by hand if need be.
Waiting for your response,
Tayssir
Tayssir John Gabbour wrote:
> Kenny Tilton wrote:
>
>>Tayssir John Gabbour wrote:
>>
>>>I am trying to get as many records from the ALU as I can, including
>>>minutes, financial info, etc. Because the danger is that Lisp users
>
> are
>
>>>infantilized into not being able to accomplish their own
>
> objectives,
>
>>>leaving it up to some political organization they know virtually
>>>nothing about.
>>
>>Nice fantasy! The ALU is an impotent non-entity trying to become an
>>entity of some value to a vanishingly small albeit vastly superior
>>programming community and you are concerned about Big Brother?!
>>
>>PWUUAAAAHHAAAHHAHHAAAAAAHHAHAHAHA!
>
>
> Whoa Kenny, I actually thought of you while writing that long post.
> That part about calling the previous ALU president a "fearless leader,"
That's my point. A lot of things happened only because he made such a
herculean effort. Otherwise the ALU has been nodding off in their
rocking chairs. Mind you, I am not saying that is a bad thing, since it
is not clear what function the ALU could serve. Hell, they are trying to
figure that out now.
A Python or Perl group makes sense because those languages are still
emerging from the sea and a user group gives users a chance to give the
BDFLs some feedback. CL, bless it, does not have that problem.
> represent and provide services for Lisp users, and my criticism is not
> aimed at the ALU -- but at the situation where the ALU is worried that
> Lispers are infants and must keep info from them.
You might be reading too much into the brush-off.
>
> Specifically to your rhetorical point, you claim the Lisp community is
> "vanishingly small." This directly contradicts the ALU president's
> speech two weeks ago.
Pardon the hyperbole. I was just chewing the scenery. But I will stop
thinking Lisp is small the day I find a computer science undergrad who
has even heard of Lisp. Students taking Lisp do not count.
Which I happen to have not only on tape, but I've
> written out a text transcript this weekend. I am waiting for permission
> to release it.
>
> Contradicting you again, he criticizes the Benevolent Dictator
> mentality where people look to a central figure rather than acting with
> self-sufficiency.
ha-ha, I don't think his predecessor wanted to be the only one doing
anything, I think he just was. So the new prez may be in for an
unpleasant surprise.
but in a year or two we should see CL take off and then the whole
picture will change. just as well the ALU is ramping up now.
My only point, if you reread my post, is I want more
> participation and less "What can some guys I don't know do for me?" Do
> you disagree?
>
> If you claim the ALU's an "impotent non-entity," then since you're an
> impotent member on its impotent extended board, are you seriously
> inviting me to partially blame you for that state?
Gotcha. I am on the extended board only because the former, energetic
prez got me in an armlock and poured maragritas down my throat until I
said, sure, why not?
I don't think you're
> a non-entity.
Buddha taught that the self is an illusion. I am down with that.
>
>
>
>>I am CL's biggest booster, but I think we might want to hold off
>
> another
>
>>year before indulging delusions of grandeur and the requisite
>
> paranoia.
>
> I don't think you're CL's biggest booster if you call Lisp users
> "vastly superior." That is an interesting view I've seen among Lispers
> in the past, which has mercifully toned down.
No, sorry, I have been resting: we are the Priesthood, the Cognoscenti,
the Top Shelf, the...
It gave rise to excesses
> where people publicly criticized Java without knowing the first thing
> of programming in it.
Wow, the slams I read all come from Lispniks doing hardcore Java at
their day jobs.
Lisp itself may be superior, but the people who
> use it just happen to be reasonably intelligent people around at the
> right time. Doesn't make you special.
From http://www.truetao.org/laotzu/taote/chap41.htm
Chapter 41 of the Tao Te Ching:
High-level people hear of the Tao
They diligently practice it
Average people hear of the Tao
They sometimes keep it and sometimes lose it
Low-level people hear of the Tao
They laugh loudly at it
If they do not laugh, it would not be the Tao
s/Tao/Lisp/w
kenny
--
Cells? Cello? Celtik?: http://www.common-lisp.net/project/cells/
Why Lisp? http://alu.cliki.net/RtL%20Highlight%20Film
Kenny Tilton wrote:
> > Whoa Kenny, I actually thought of you while writing that long post.
> > That part about calling the previous ALU president a "fearless
> > leader,"
>
> That's my point. A lot of things happened only because he made
> such a herculean effort.
>
> Otherwise the ALU has been nodding off in their
> rocking chairs.
Thanks for the warning. I'm aware it was unusually stressful for him. I
think we're smarter than to impose that burden on someone now. A more
well-informed public will likely relieve some of the stress of this
position.
There is something I noticed, and it's quite common. Within any group,
some people take on less responsibility, and others take on much more.
With time, a sort of authoritarian quality pops up if it isn't
carefully watched out for. Very idealistic movements can become
top-heavy and distant, reinforcing itself with the observation that
they're the the only ones who'll do the job.
Like when you say that the ALU doesn't know what it should do. Well,
point me to the mailing list where the Lisp-using public can help
answer that question. Has there been one usenet posting saying, "Hmm,
you're Lisp users. Well, we're the Association of Lisp Users! What a
coincidence. Here is enough information on how to use us properly. And
remember that the Association of Lisp Users might.. I don't know... be
better off if Lisp users help drive it."
> > Contradicting you again, he criticizes the Benevolent Dictator
> > mentality where people look to a central figure rather than acting
> > with self-sufficiency.
>
> ha-ha, I don't think his predecessor wanted to be the only one doing
> anything, I think he just was. So the new prez may be in for an
> unpleasant surprise.
When he mentioned benevolent dictators, he was not talking about the
ALU or Lisp. ;) Should Lisp have a benevolent dictator then?
>From everything I've heard him say, he has full respect for Ray and the
incredible job he did. I want to make sure that is 100% straight.
> > represent and provide services for Lisp users, and my criticism
> > is not aimed at the ALU -- but at the situation where the ALU is
> > worried that Lispers are infants and must keep info from them.
>
> You might be reading too much into the brush-off.
Do you think I'd let myself be brushed off? Ho ho ho.
Anyway, it didn't go down like you imagine. We talked a little about it
beforehand, and the only thing I'm annoyed about was promising to keep
quiet about what was said -- nothing surprising to me was mentioned, so
I'm not doing that again.
I'm not going off on one warning bell.
> > Specifically to your rhetorical point, you claim the Lisp community
> > is "vanishingly small." This directly contradicts the ALU
> > president's speech two weeks ago.
>
> Pardon the hyperbole. I was just chewing the scenery. But I will
> stop thinking Lisp is small the day I find a computer science
> undergrad who has even heard of Lisp. Students taking Lisp do not
> count.
I only took issue with your word 'vanishing.' That implies negative
growth.
But I don't care if Lisp "grows." Should this language be just another
thing in life people do because they're commanded to by some boss or
teacher?
But I do care about communicating why Lisp is beautiful. I think that's
one morally good thing to do. When people hear about Lisp and do a
quick search for it, I would like them to find astonishingly
interesting things to read, if it can speak to their souls.
> Wow, the slams I read all come from Lispniks doing hardcore Java at
> their day jobs.
Selective memory. ;)
> > Lisp itself may be superior, but the people who
> > use it just happen to be reasonably intelligent people around
> > at the right time. Doesn't make you special.
>
> From http://www.truetao.org/laotzu/taote/chap41.htm
>
> Chapter 41 of the Tao Te Ching:
>
> High-level people hear of the Tao
> They diligently practice it
> Average people hear of the Tao
> They sometimes keep it and sometimes lose it
> Low-level people hear of the Tao
> They laugh loudly at it
> If they do not laugh, it would not be the Tao
"Because one does not want to be disturbed, to be made uncertain, he
establishes a pattern of conduct, of thought, a pattern of
relationships to man. He then becomes a slave to the pattern and takes
the pattern to be the real thing."
http://www.dreamsongs.com/cgi-bin/ExtravagariaWiki/index.cgi?NontraditionalLiterature
MfG,
Tayssir
Tayssir John Gabbour wrote:
> Kenny Tilton wrote:
>
>>>Whoa Kenny, I actually thought of you while writing that long post.
>>>That part about calling the previous ALU president a "fearless
>>>leader,"
>>
>>That's my point. A lot of things happened only because he made
>>such a herculean effort.
>>
>>Otherwise the ALU has been nodding off in their
>>rocking chairs.
>
>
...
> Like when you say that the ALU doesn't know what it should do. Well,
> point me to the mailing list where the Lisp-using public can help
> answer that question.
Not a bad idea. But they do have a good-sized extended board and a list
for them. And when some ideas were floated they got a vanishingly small
response. Deja vu all over again. Now had you been on the extended
board... hey, can I sell my seat on eBay?
> ...the only thing I'm annoyed about was promising to keep
> quiet about what was said -- nothing surprising to me was mentioned, so
> I'm not doing that again.
oh my, off the-record-conversations? I had no idea of the political
intrigues underway. John Clancy's new novel cannot be far off. The
Lambda Incident! Buy this title with Practical Common Lisp and save...
>
> I'm not going off on one warning bell.
>
>
>
>>>Specifically to your rhetorical point, you claim the Lisp community
>>>is "vanishingly small." This directly contradicts the ALU
>>>president's speech two weeks ago.
>>
>>Pardon the hyperbole. I was just chewing the scenery. But I will
>>stop thinking Lisp is small the day I find a computer science
>>undergrad who has even heard of Lisp. Students taking Lisp do not
>>count.
>
>
> I only took issue with your word 'vanishing.' That implies negative
> growth.
Vanishing is your word. "Vanishingly small" means "so small as to be
almost invisible." Hello Lisp.
Googled at random: " In his recent book, Life Itself, Crick devotes
the first half convincing his audience that the probability of life
forming spontaneously on this earth is vanishingly small."
>
> But I don't care if Lisp "grows." Should this language be just another
> thing in life people do because they're commanded to by some boss or
> teacher?
>
> But I do care about communicating why Lisp is beautiful. I think that's
> one morally good thing to do. When people hear about Lisp and do a
> quick search for it, I would like them to find astonishingly
> interesting things to read, if it can speak to their souls.
>
>
>
>>Wow, the slams I read all come from Lispniks doing hardcore Java at
>>their day jobs.
>
>
> Selective memory. ;)
Selective reading. :)
kenny
--
Cells? Cello? Celtik?: http://www.common-lisp.net/project/cells/
Why Lisp? http://alu.cliki.net/RtL%20Highlight%20Film
Kenny Tilton wrote:
> Tayssir John Gabbour wrote:
> > Like when you say that the ALU doesn't know what it should do.
> > Well, point me to the mailing list where the Lisp-using public
> > can help answer that question.
>
> Not a bad idea. But they do have a good-sized extended board and
> a list for them. And when some ideas were floated they got a
> vanishingly small response. Deja vu all over again. Now had you
> been on the extended board... hey, can I sell my seat on eBay?
I don't think I could've done anything about it. There are times when
there's nothing one can do as regards what others will contribute, and
so you have people like Ray laboring monstrously to have a 100-person
gettogether which he is too tired to enjoy.
In spite of all that, I think these modest goals are worth
accomplishing, of letting someone (like me) scan in the
minutes+financials, and not having secret meetings except when really
appropriate and publicly justified (for sensitive financial info, etc).
I also think the ALU is expending more energy being opaque than
transparent.
My operational definition of Lisp is of a system which invites you in.
With reasonable defaults. We can't expect people to take advantage of
that flexibility, but I know I want to be informed.
MfG,
Tayssir
From: Cesar Rabak
Subject: Re: ILC 2004-is there a reason why there is no such (separate) event?
Date:
Message-ID: <4161962F.5020301@acm.org>
Kenny Tilton escreveu:
>
[snipped]
>
> Pardon the hyperbole. I was just chewing the scenery. But I will stop
> thinking Lisp is small the day I find a computer science undergrad who
> has even heard of Lisp. Students taking Lisp do not count.
>
Kenny the new Diogenes of Sinope^wLispland ?
:-D
--
Cesar Rabak
Cesar Rabak wrote:
> Kenny Tilton escreveu:
>
>>
> [snipped]
>
>>
>> Pardon the hyperbole. I was just chewing the scenery. But I will stop
>> thinking Lisp is small the day I find a computer science undergrad who
>> has even heard of Lisp. Students taking Lisp do not count.
>>
>
> Kenny the new Diogenes of Sinope^wLispland ?
Yes, but instead of a lantern I carry a menorah just to create even more
confusion.
:)
kenny
--
Cells? Cello? Celtik?: http://www.common-lisp.net/project/cells/
Why Lisp? http://alu.cliki.net/RtL%20Highlight%20Film
Kenny Tilton wrote:
> Tayssir John Gabbour wrote:
>
>> Lisp itself may be superior, but the people who
>> use it just happen to be reasonably intelligent people around at the
>> right time. Doesn't make you special.
>
> From http://www.truetao.org/laotzu/taote/chap41.htm
>
> Chapter 41 of the Tao Te Ching:
[...]
I don't think that esotericism helps us a lot here. The Lisp "community"
is like any other in that it has some clear strengths and some clear
weaknesses. Among the weaknesses I see the fact that there are a number
of right-thing thinkers who have very strong opinions about the right
vs. the wrong way. This is a natural by-product of the fact that Lisp
accommodates quite a number of styles which attracts people with very
different mindsets at the same time. As Tayssir said, the strong voices
seem to have toned down and made room for more moderate views. But the
danger that extreme views will rise again is clearly there. [1]
The ALU has the potential to become something like the official voice of
the Lisp community, and in some areas, "officialness" is indeed
important. Think about CLRFI or the fact that conference organizers seem
to regard it as natural to contact the ALU in order to involve the Lisp
community, etc. Therefore, in my opinion it is important that the ALU
represents the broad range of mindsets that Lisp comprises, and not just
those that the current board members happen to prefer.
Mind you, I am convinced that the current president is open-minded
enough in that regard, so I don't see any near-term dangers here.
Nevertheless, I also think that Tayssir's attempts to make things more
public will also clearly help to get a wider acceptance of the ALU.
Pascal
[1] Other communities don't have that problem because there, things are
decided by widely accepted authorities. In the Lisp world, it is in fact
both a problem and an advantage. The advantage is that everyone has more
freedoms, the problem is that there is more fragmentation.
--
Pascal Costanza University of Bonn
···············@web.de Institute of Computer Science III
http://www.pascalcostanza.de R�merstr. 164, D-53117 Bonn (Germany)
Pascal Costanza wrote:
> Kenny Tilton wrote:
>
>> Tayssir John Gabbour wrote:
>>
>>> Lisp itself may be superior, but the people who
>>> use it just happen to be reasonably intelligent people around at the
>>> right time. Doesn't make you special.
>>
>>
>> From http://www.truetao.org/laotzu/taote/chap41.htm
>>
>> Chapter 41 of the Tao Te Ching:
>
> [...]
>
> I don't think that esotericism helps us a lot here.
(a) Oh this old hobgoblin. Yes, many a serious programmer considering
Lisp for serious work has rejected it because Kenny is an arrogant jerk
who hangs out on comp.lang.lisp. As if!
(b) Are you /sure/ trash-talking is bad for Lisp?
"[Richard Gabriel] tried to promote Lisp as a language that has the
quality without a name, and I made some cursory remarks about Lisp's
unnecessarily complicated syntax, just like anybody else who doesn't get
it yet. ;)
To me, the most important comment he made was: "True, only the
creatively intelligent can prosper in the Lisp world." This annoyed me
so much that it made me want to learn Lisp seriously, just to see who of
us is really wrong.
Needless to say, I was wrong. ;-)"
http://alu.cliki.net/Pascal%20Costanza's%20Road%20To%20Lisp
:)
kenny
--
The Lisp "community"
> is like any other in that it has some clear strengths and some clear
> weaknesses. Among the weaknesses I see the fact that there are a number
> of right-thing thinkers who have very strong opinions about the right
> vs. the wrong way. This is a natural by-product of the fact that Lisp
> accommodates quite a number of styles which attracts people with very
> different mindsets at the same time. As Tayssir said, the strong voices
> seem to have toned down and made room for more moderate views. But the
> danger that extreme views will rise again is clearly there. [1]
>
> The ALU has the potential to become something like the official voice of
> the Lisp community, and in some areas, "officialness" is indeed
> important. Think about CLRFI or the fact that conference organizers seem
> to regard it as natural to contact the ALU in order to involve the Lisp
> community, etc. Therefore, in my opinion it is important that the ALU
> represents the broad range of mindsets that Lisp comprises, and not just
> those that the current board members happen to prefer.
>
> Mind you, I am convinced that the current president is open-minded
> enough in that regard, so I don't see any near-term dangers here.
> Nevertheless, I also think that Tayssir's attempts to make things more
> public will also clearly help to get a wider acceptance of the ALU.
>
>
> Pascal
>
> [1] Other communities don't have that problem because there, things are
> decided by widely accepted authorities. In the Lisp world, it is in fact
> both a problem and an advantage. The advantage is that everyone has more
> freedoms, the problem is that there is more fragmentation.
>
--
Cells? Cello? Celtik?: http://www.common-lisp.net/project/cells/
Why Lisp? http://alu.cliki.net/RtL%20Highlight%20Film
From: Joel Ray Holveck
Subject: Re: ILC 2004-is there a reason why there is no such (separate) event?
Date:
Message-ID: <87vfdp4p42.fsf@thor.piquan.org>
>> Lisp itself may be superior, but the people who
>> use it just happen to be reasonably intelligent people around at the
>> right time. Doesn't make you special.
> From http://www.truetao.org/laotzu/taote/chap41.htm
The Tao that is computable on a Turing machine is not the true Tao.
joelh
--
Joel Ray Holveck - ·····@piquan.org
Fourth law of programming:
Anything that can go wrong wi
sendmail: segmentation violation - core dumped
"Tayssir John Gabbour" <···········@yahoo.com> writes:
> I am trying to get as many records from the ALU as I can, including
> minutes, financial info, etc. Because the danger is that Lisp users are
A few months ago I found in the CLIM list archives the press release
that announced ALU in early 1992, and posted it to the ALU CLiki site
in the context of a Lispnik meeting summary. But I am no longer able
to find the relevant page. I still have the original press release
around, so if you want a copy just let me know.
Paolo
--
Why Lisp? http://alu.cliki.net/RtL%20Highlight%20Film
Recommended Common Lisp libraries/tools (see also http://clrfi.alu.org):
- ASDF/ASDF-INSTALL: system building/installation
- CL-PPCRE: regular expressions
- UFFI: Foreign Function Interface
Paolo Amoroso wrote:
> "Tayssir John Gabbour" <···········@yahoo.com> writes:
>
> > I am trying to get as many records from the ALU as I can, including
> > minutes, financial info, etc. Because the danger is that Lisp users
are
>
> A few months ago I found in the CLIM list archives the press release
> that announced ALU in early 1992, and posted it to the ALU CLiki site
> in the context of a Lispnik meeting summary. But I am no longer able
> to find the relevant page. I still have the original press release
> around, so if you want a copy just let me know.
Thanks for pointing that out.
http://alu.cliki.net/ALU%20Formation%20Press%20Release
That might help explain why there's this sense that the ALU thinks in
terms of organizations of people; Lisp users being viewed as one bloc.
Maybe also why that mailing list Kenny mentioned was to the extended
board specifically, rather than to general Lisp users.
MfG,
Tayssir
Paolo Amoroso wrote:
> "Tayssir John Gabbour" <···········@yahoo.com> writes:
> > I am trying to get as many records from the ALU as I can, including
> > minutes, financial info, etc. Because the danger is that Lisp users
are
>
> A few months ago I found in the CLIM list archives the press release
> that announced ALU in early 1992, and posted it to the ALU CLiki site
> in the context of a Lispnik meeting summary. But I am no longer able
> to find the relevant page. I still have the original press release
> around, so if you want a copy just let me know.
Incidentally, the ALU does incredibly educational things:
"Lisp is regaining favor in government circles. There will be a U.S.
House of Representatives Subcommittee meeting this Wednesday, February
26 to discuss the strategic importance of the Lisp programming language
to the national economy. Attendees include Olivier Clarisse and Byron
Davies representing the Association of Lisp Users (ALU), Hazem Sayed of
Digitool representing Lisp software suppliers, and Dr. James Gatzka,
who has been carrying the Lisp cause to his many friends in all
branches of the U.S. government. (Dr. Gatzka has also convinced a
government agency to commit $200K to support an expanded ALU Lisp
Conference this August, and U.S. Vice President Al Gore to give the
keynote speech at the conference)."
http://openmap.bbn.com/hypermail/clim/0226.html
http://openmap.bbn.com/hypermail/clim/0227.html
MfG,
Tayssir
In article <························@h37g2000oda.googlegroups.com>,
"Tayssir John Gabbour" <···········@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Paolo Amoroso wrote:
> > "Tayssir John Gabbour" <···········@yahoo.com> writes:
> > > I am trying to get as many records from the ALU as I can, including
> > > minutes, financial info, etc. Because the danger is that Lisp users
> are
> >
> > A few months ago I found in the CLIM list archives the press release
> > that announced ALU in early 1992, and posted it to the ALU CLiki site
> > in the context of a Lispnik meeting summary. But I am no longer able
> > to find the relevant page. I still have the original press release
> > around, so if you want a copy just let me know.
>
> Incidentally, the ALU does incredibly educational things:
>
> "Lisp is regaining favor in government circles. There will be a U.S.
> House of Representatives Subcommittee meeting this Wednesday, February
> 26 to discuss the strategic importance of the Lisp programming language
> to the national economy. Attendees include Olivier Clarisse and Byron
> Davies representing the Association of Lisp Users (ALU), Hazem Sayed of
> Digitool representing Lisp software suppliers, and Dr. James Gatzka,
> who has been carrying the Lisp cause to his many friends in all
> branches of the U.S. government. (Dr. Gatzka has also convinced a
> government agency to commit $200K to support an expanded ALU Lisp
> Conference this August, and U.S. Vice President Al Gore to give the
> keynote speech at the conference)."
>
> http://openmap.bbn.com/hypermail/clim/0226.html
> http://openmap.bbn.com/hypermail/clim/0227.html
Er, that was in 1897. Uh, I mean 1997. Which, when it comes to
technology, pretty much amounts to the same thing.
rg
Ron Garret wrote:
> In article <························@h37g2000oda.googlegroups.com>,
> "Tayssir John Gabbour" <···········@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > Incidentally, the ALU does incredibly educational things:
> >
> > "Lisp is regaining favor in government circles. There will be a
U.S.
> > House of Representatives Subcommittee meeting this Wednesday,
February
> > 26 to discuss the strategic importance of the Lisp programming
language
> > to the national economy. Attendees include Olivier Clarisse and
Byron
> > Davies representing the Association of Lisp Users (ALU), Hazem
Sayed of
> > Digitool representing Lisp software suppliers, and Dr. James
Gatzka,
> > who has been carrying the Lisp cause to his many friends in all
> > branches of the U.S. government. (Dr. Gatzka has also convinced a
> > government agency to commit $200K to support an expanded ALU Lisp
> > Conference this August, and U.S. Vice President Al Gore to give the
> > keynote speech at the conference)."
> >
> > http://openmap.bbn.com/hypermail/clim/0226.html
> > http://openmap.bbn.com/hypermail/clim/0227.html
>
> Er, that was in 1897. Uh, I mean 1997. Which, when it comes to
> technology, pretty much amounts to the same thing.
Oh heck. I thought the August ALU conference, with $200K of funding and
Al Gore giving the keynote, was referring to this recent one in
Amsterdam. ;)
I reiterate my point, which is my only point, is that people learning
the ALU's experiences is an incredibly effective thing to do.
Incidentally, I am a US citizen. So on more than one level, this
interests me, because I would like case studies in being an effective
citizen who can interact with his gubbmint.
Regards,
Tayssir
"Tayssir John Gabbour" <···········@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<························@h37g2000oda.googlegroups.com>...
> Paolo Amoroso wrote:
>
> "Lisp is regaining favor in government circles. There will be a U.S.
> House of Representatives Subcommittee meeting this Wednesday, February
> 26 to discuss the strategic importance of the Lisp programming language
> to the national economy. Attendees include Olivier Clarisse and Byron
> Davies representing the Association of Lisp Users (ALU), Hazem Sayed of
> Digitool representing Lisp software suppliers, and Dr. James Gatzka,
> who has been carrying the Lisp cause to his many friends in all
> branches of the U.S. government. (Dr. Gatzka has also convinced a
> government agency to commit $200K to support an expanded ALU Lisp
> Conference this August, and U.S. Vice President Al Gore to give the
> keynote speech at the conference)."
>
> http://openmap.bbn.com/hypermail/clim/0226.html
> http://openmap.bbn.com/hypermail/clim/0227.html
>
This reads like a hoax to me. A congressional subcommittee talking
about Lisp? Al Gore giving the keynote at a Lisp conference?
From: Paul F. Dietz
Subject: Re: ILC 2004-is there a reason why there is no such (separate) event?
Date:
Message-ID: <J4ednXUdp9--2_7cRVn-vA@dls.net>
paul graham wrote:
> This reads like a hoax to me. A congressional subcommittee talking
> about Lisp? Al Gore giving the keynote at a Lisp conference?
Al Gore invented Lisp, you know.
Paul
paul graham wrote:
> "Tayssir John Gabbour" <···········@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:<························@h37g2000oda.googlegroups.com>...
> > "Lisp is regaining favor in government circles. There will be a
> > U.S. House of Representatives Subcommittee meeting this Wednesday,
> > February 26 to discuss the strategic importance of the Lisp
> > programming language to the national economy. Attendees include
> > Olivier Clarisse and Byron Davies representing the Association of
> > Lisp Users (ALU), Hazem Sayed of Digitool representing Lisp
software
> > suppliers, and Dr. James Gatzka, who has been carrying the Lisp
> > cause to his many friends in all branches of the U.S. government.
> > (Dr. Gatzka has also convinced a
> > government agency to commit $200K to support an expanded ALU Lisp
> > Conference this August, and U.S. Vice President Al Gore to give the
> > keynote speech at the conference)."
> >
> > http://openmap.bbn.com/hypermail/clim/0226.html
> > http://openmap.bbn.com/hypermail/clim/0227.html
>
> This reads like a hoax to me. A congressional subcommittee talking
> about Lisp? Al Gore giving the keynote at a Lisp conference?
On the Benelux/Cologne lists, it was confirmed that this wasn't a hoax.
Instead, it was a grab for profits. Which fell through.
Very educational. ;) I don't even consider it a failure, because this
attempt is impressive enough in various senses.
Incidentally, the extended board receives a redacted form of the board
minutes, purged of sensitive lisp vendor plans or personal info. And so
one of the ALU board members had the very useful idea of posting them
publicly. (I'm not sure whether the intention is to go back in time to
previous board meetings, which currently occur monthly with conference
calls.)
MfG,
Tayssir
From: Marco Antoniotti
Subject: Re: ILC 2004-is there a reason why there is no such (separate) event?
Date:
Message-ID: <PsS8d.5$u5.1220@typhoon.nyu.edu>
Obviously Al Gore invented Common Lisp as well :)
Cheers
--
Marco
Tayssir John Gabbour wrote:
> Paolo Amoroso wrote:
>
>>"Tayssir John Gabbour" <···········@yahoo.com> writes:
>>
>>>I am trying to get as many records from the ALU as I can, including
>>>minutes, financial info, etc. Because the danger is that Lisp users
>
> are
>
>>A few months ago I found in the CLIM list archives the press release
>>that announced ALU in early 1992, and posted it to the ALU CLiki site
>>in the context of a Lispnik meeting summary. But I am no longer able
>>to find the relevant page. I still have the original press release
>>around, so if you want a copy just let me know.
>
>
> Incidentally, the ALU does incredibly educational things:
>
> "Lisp is regaining favor in government circles. There will be a U.S.
> House of Representatives Subcommittee meeting this Wednesday, February
> 26 to discuss the strategic importance of the Lisp programming language
> to the national economy. Attendees include Olivier Clarisse and Byron
> Davies representing the Association of Lisp Users (ALU), Hazem Sayed of
> Digitool representing Lisp software suppliers, and Dr. James Gatzka,
> who has been carrying the Lisp cause to his many friends in all
> branches of the U.S. government. (Dr. Gatzka has also convinced a
> government agency to commit $200K to support an expanded ALU Lisp
> Conference this August, and U.S. Vice President Al Gore to give the
> keynote speech at the conference)."
>
> http://openmap.bbn.com/hypermail/clim/0226.html
> http://openmap.bbn.com/hypermail/clim/0227.html
>
>
> MfG,
> Tayssir
>