From: Emre Sevinc
Subject: YALCFO (Yet Another Lisp Criticism From an Outsider)
Date:
Message-ID: <87ekibm2zz.fsf@bilgi.edu.tr>
I've found this link while browsing O'Reilly blogs:
http://weblogs.java.net/blog/jonathansimon/archive/2004/11/paul_graham_and.html
"Is Paul Graham, a very open and strong opponent of Java, using it
himself? Well, not exactly.
But Paul Graham's former company ViaWeb that was sold to Yahoo is.
The last issue of Swing Sightings points to the Java based Yahoo
site builder application for small business.
Ordinarily, I wouldn't make a big deal out of something like this.
But a decent amount of effort was spent in Hackers and Painters
slamming Java and explaining why the entire success of ViaWeb was
really because of Lisp. So, you have to at least appreciate the
irony in that the remnants of the company he used as an example of
why not to use Java -- are now using Java themselves."
--
Emre Sevinc
eMBA Software Developer Actively engaged in:
http:www.bilgi.edu.tr http://ileriseviye.org
http://www.bilgi.edu.tr http://fazlamesai.net
Cognitive Science Student http://cazci.com
http://www.cogsci.boun.edu.tr
> So, you have to at least appreciate the
> irony in that the remnants of the company he used as an example of
> why not to use Java -- are now using Java themselves.
Unfortunately, it is the oldest story in the book. Not only do people
not use Lisp, but when Lisp projects win the first thing everyone wants
to do is scurry back to their security blankets by porting it to
something known. NASA did it, Yahoo did it, and my boss -- even though
he knows better and could not be happier with the system I built for him
in Lisp -- still cannot help asking me every once in a while how hard it
would be to port it to C++. Yet he is one of the smartest people I know,
a mold-breaker, and did not complain one whit when I said I wanted to
use Lisp instead of <gasp!> VB.
This surprises only those who hold that we are rational. Familiarity
rules. Fortunately Mr. Graham not only won big with Lisp, but he was
kind enough to tell the world how he did it, and enough curious souls
have followed his lead that Lisp is gaining mindshare fast.
kenny
From: David Steuber
Subject: Re: YALCFO (Yet Another Lisp Criticism From an Outsider)
Date:
Message-ID: <873byqardy.fsf@david-steuber.com>
Kenneth Tilton <·······@nyc.rr.com> writes:
> This surprises only those who hold that we are rational. Familiarity
> rules. Fortunately Mr. Graham not only won big with Lisp, but he was
> kind enough to tell the world how he did it, and enough curious souls
> have followed his lead that Lisp is gaining mindshare fast.
<facetious>
Lisp went from six users to twelve in one week. At that rate, in one
year there will be more Lisp users than people!
</facetious>
I think a lot of people are missing out on the point that Lisp is
fun. You can express nifty ideas in Lisp with just a few lines of
code that in most other languages would require many lines of code. I
don't know about most people, but I don't really want to spend time
writing and reading lots of code anymore. The conciseness of Lisp is
a big win for me.
I know that Lisp is not an elixir that will transform a mediocre
programmer into an uber hacker. But it does have certain properties
that make me wish I learned Lisp before C. I think I would have been
much better off.
--
An ideal world is left as an excercise to the reader.
--- Paul Graham, On Lisp 8.1
David Steuber <·····@david-steuber.com> writes:
> <facetious>
> Lisp went from six users to twelve in one week. At that rate, in one
> year there will be more Lisp users than people!
> </facetious>
Back then, they probably thought that Lisp would not have needed more
than 640 users anyway.
Paolo
--
Why Lisp? http://alu.cliki.net/RtL%20Highlight%20Film
Recommended Common Lisp libraries/tools (see also http://clrfi.alu.org):
- ASDF/ASDF-INSTALL: system building/installation
- CL-PPCRE: regular expressions
- UFFI: Foreign Function Interface
From: Nikodemus Siivola
Subject: Re: YALCFO (Yet Another Lisp Criticism From an Outsider)
Date:
Message-ID: <copci5$i9i9m$1@midnight.cs.hut.fi>
Paolo Amoroso <·······@mclink.it> wrote:
> Back then, they probably thought that Lisp would not have needed more
> than 640 users anyway.
"Interlisp-10 now has approximately 300 users at 20 different sites
(mostly universities) in the US and abroad."
Teitelman, Masinter. The Interlisp Programming Environment. 1981.
;-)
-- Nikodemus
Emre Sevinc wrote:
> I've found this link while browsing O'Reilly blogs:
>
> http://weblogs.java.net/blog/jonathansimon/archive/2004/11/paul_graham_and.html
>
> "Is Paul Graham, a very open and strong opponent of Java, using it
> himself? Well, not exactly.
>
> But Paul Graham's former company ViaWeb that was sold to Yahoo is.
> The last issue of Swing Sightings points to the Java based Yahoo
> site builder application for small business.
>
> Ordinarily, I wouldn't make a big deal out of something like this.
> But a decent amount of effort was spent in Hackers and Painters
> slamming Java and explaining why the entire success of ViaWeb was
> really because of Lisp. So, you have to at least appreciate the
> irony in that the remnants of the company he used as an example of
> why not to use Java -- are now using Java themselves."
>
>
>
In a way this is almost irrelevant. The interesting question is would
the software have been written if it had to be done in Java? Or did it
require first solving the problem in Lisp to show how it should be done?
David Sletten
Emre Sevinc <·····@bilgi.edu.tr> writes:
> But Paul Graham's former company ViaWeb that was sold to Yahoo is.
> The last issue of Swing Sightings points to the Java based Yahoo
> site builder application for small business.
Didn't Yahoo rewrite it once in C++ already? At this rate I expect to
see a C# version by 2007 ..
-dan
--
"please make sure that the person is your friend before you confirm"
Emre Sevinc wrote:
> I've found this link while browsing O'Reilly blogs:
>
> http://weblogs.java.net/blog/jonathansimon/archive/2004/11/paul_graham_and.html
Articles like this are devoid of actual info about the tools it
critiques. Therefore it becomes useful to read it within its social
context. From David Noble's book I mentioned earlier:
"Typically, only those technologies which do not fit within this
larger framework of preferred development are required to pass
rigorous tests of immediate technical and economic viability. And
since these are not really technical or economic tests at all, but
political and cultural ones, they are predestined to fail."
http://groups.google.com/groups?threadm=866764be.0411050716.5095838b%40posting.google.com&rnum=1
David was talking about how automation is used to deskill workers to
make managing them easier, rather than augmenting the skill of users.
He claims that the darwinistic model of Technology is a myth; people
believe that the Technologist determines what is possible, the
Businessman what is feasible, and finally the Market self-corrects,
dooming weak businessmen. But all three filters are a fantasy; the two
humans are generally ideologically biased and enthusiastic, while the
market is easily overwhelmed by monopoly and the state, sustaining
mainly the dreamers who have more power.
Additionally, one assumption in this Java guy's article is that Yahoo!
is optimally rational. However, Yahoo has a record of killing the
goose that laid golden eggs; a Google cofounder claimed Yahoo turned
down buying/licensing Google because "search quality wasn't
competitively important."
http://murl.microsoft.com/LectureDetails.asp?895
Finally, large corporations like Yahoo are usually paranoid
organizations which adopt a dictatorship system of government. Who
knows why Yahoo went for Java. They certainly rewrote systems into PHP
in preference to Java: does that make PHP better than Java?
http://public.yahoo.com/~radwin/talks/yahoo-phpcon2002.htm
MfG,
Tayssir
--
Tyranny of the majority is another term for democracy.
Tragedy of the commons is averted by the crudest communication.
Decentralized democracy helps keep rights intact.
From: Wade Humeniuk
Subject: Re: YALCFO (Yet Another Lisp Criticism From an Outsider)
Date:
Message-ID: <c4mrd.251700$9b.128503@edtnps84>
Emre Sevinc wrote:
>
> Ordinarily, I wouldn't make a big deal out of something like this.
> But a decent amount of effort was spent in Hackers and Painters
> slamming Java and explaining why the entire success of ViaWeb was
> really because of Lisp. So, you have to at least appreciate the
> irony in that the remnants of the company he used as an example of
> why not to use Java -- are now using Java themselves."
>
So you want to poke a stick in a tiger's eye? There is problem
when anyone's off-hand comment is substituted for careful thought
and reason.
No thanks for contributing to the web of mis-information. (Maybe
the flies have finished consuming Java's carcass, anyone hear the
buzzing?)
Wade
From: David Steuber
Subject: Re: YALCFO (Yet Another Lisp Criticism From an Outsider)
Date:
Message-ID: <87fz2psheb.fsf@david-steuber.com>
Wade Humeniuk <····································@telus.net> writes:
> No thanks for contributing to the web of mis-information. (Maybe
> the flies have finished consuming Java's carcass, anyone hear the
> buzzing?)
Java seems to still be going strong and probably won't die anytime
soon. Although, I was rather surprised to discover that Open Office
org is written primarily in C++ which means that Star Office...
--
An ideal world is left as an excercise to the reader.
--- Paul Graham, On Lisp 8.1
David Steuber wrote:
> Java seems to still be going strong and probably won't die anytime
> soon. Although, I was rather surprised to discover that Open Office
> org is written primarily in C++ which means that Star Office...
I think staroffice was started before java was available. afair, it was
available already in the early 1990s
hs
Hartmann Schaffer <··@hartmann.schaffernet> writes:
> David Steuber wrote:
>> Java seems to still be going strong and probably won't die anytime
>> soon. Although, I was rather surprised to discover that Open Office
>> org is written primarily in C++ which means that Star Office...
>
> I think staroffice was started before java was available. afair, it
> was available already in the early 1990s
>
> hs
The important thing to keep in mind is that when Sun purchased
StarOffice, it was a Java application so that it could "run
anywhere".
Of course, they then proceeded to scrap StarOffice, launched
OpenOffice as a fresh start and eschewed Java as the implementation
language - because they want to hurt Microsoft more than they want
to push Java.
--jon
On Thu, 2004-12-02 at 19:43 -0500, Jon Boone wrote:
> Hartmann Schaffer <··@hartmann.schaffernet> writes:
>
> > David Steuber wrote:
> >> Java seems to still be going strong and probably won't die anytime
> >> soon. Although, I was rather surprised to discover that Open Office
> >> org is written primarily in C++ which means that Star Office...
> >
> > I think staroffice was started before java was available. afair, it
> > was available already in the early 1990s
> >
> > hs
>
> The important thing to keep in mind is that when Sun purchased
> StarOffice, it was a Java application so that it could "run
> anywhere".
I seem to remember running star office on OS/2 before java was invented.
It also ran on windows at the time. Open Office, or so I thought, was
simply the star office code base. Star Office, _now_ is just a packaged
version of Open Office with a few add ons.
Where did you get the idea it was written in Java?
K
>
> Of course, they then proceeded to scrap StarOffice, launched
> OpenOffice as a fresh start and eschewed Java as the implementation
> language - because they want to hurt Microsoft more than they want
> to push Java.
>
> --jon
> On Thu, 2004-12-02 at 19:43 -0500, Jon Boone wrote:
>> The important thing to keep in mind is that when Sun purchased
>> StarOffice, it was a Java application so that it could "run
>> anywhere".
Keith Irwin <···········@hp.com> writes:
> I seem to remember running star office on OS/2 before java was invented.
> It also ran on windows at the time. Open Office, or so I thought, was
> simply the star office code base. Star Office, _now_ is just a packaged
> version of Open Office with a few add ons.
>
> Where did you get the idea it was written in Java?
From the Star Division marketing information. :-)
After researching this a bit further, it turns out that I was
misinformed. The Java version involved a client written in Java
which spoke to a server written in C++. On some platforms, there
were also "native" C++ clients. This was in 1999 and reflects the
StarOffice 5.1 version.
--jon
From: Will Hartung
Subject: Re: YALCFO (Yet Another Lisp Criticism From an Outsider)
Date:
Message-ID: <3198kuF372n00U1@individual.net>
"Emre Sevinc" <·····@bilgi.edu.tr> wrote in message
···················@bilgi.edu.tr...
>
> I've found this link while browsing O'Reilly blogs:
>
>
http://weblogs.java.net/blog/jonathansimon/archive/2004/11/paul_graham_and.h
tml
>
> "Is Paul Graham, a very open and strong opponent of Java, using it
> himself? Well, not exactly.
>
> But Paul Graham's former company ViaWeb that was sold to Yahoo is.
> The last issue of Swing Sightings points to the Java based Yahoo
> site builder application for small business.
I don't mean to push your Ivory Towers off of your High Horses, but this is
a valid criticism of Lisp, and perfectly appropriate use of Java.
Y'all are fixated on the ViaWeb server application that PG did in Lisp
originally (and Yahoo subsequently ported/reimplemented).
This post is about a client side site builder designed to create sites FOR
(what is today) ViaWeb (regardless of what the server side logic is written
in or deployed upon).
The criticism is simply that Yahoo didn't use Lisp to create this client
side GUI tool. With all of the bally hoo about the wonders of CL in this
case in point, and then PG's critique of Java, it seems a touch ironic that
Java was probably the only viable toolset that could be used to deliver a
cross platform, client side GUI based Yahoo Store design program. Now they
may well have had the option to write this tool using a Lisp/Schem in Java
tool, but I'm pretty sure they didn't.
Regards,
Will Hartung
(·····@msoft.com)
"Will Hartung" <·····@msoft.com> wrote in message news:<···············@individual.net>...
> > But Paul Graham's former company ViaWeb that was sold to Yahoo is.
> > The last issue of Swing Sightings points to the Java based Yahoo
> > site builder application for small business.
>
> I don't mean to push your Ivory Towers off of your High Horses, but this is
> a valid criticism of Lisp, and perfectly appropriate use of Java.
It's valid in the sense that counterresponses on this thread are
probably valid. (I only skimmed the thread, so maybe the specific
responses aren't as reasoned as I think. Including mine.)
None of that Java guy's blog entry was a criticism of Lisp. Neither
was "Java's Cover" a criticism of Java. It's all about PR and
personalities.
I don't like how Paul Graham invokes imagery from great hacker
mythology. I translate "great hacker" into "skilled user." But the
discourse is near-identical to that of pro wrestling. So if I say
anything vaguely positive about his essay, which I think is quite
useful to a small audience, people ignore my criticisms and think I'm
"defending" him. And everything I say is in light of someone on his
side.
MfG,
Tayssir