········@yahoo.com wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> How do Lisp programmers feel about agile methodology? Is is a hot field
> or just another fad? Has it caught on in the Lisp community?
"Lisp programmers were probably the first "agile developers" on the
planet, because as far back as the mid-60s, many of the practices that
we know today as "agile practices" or even "extreme programming" were
already in practice."
See http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?AgileLisp
Pascal
--
Pascal Costanza University of Bonn
·········@p-cos.net Institute of Computer Science III
http://www.pascalcostanza.de R�merstr. 164, D-53117 Bonn (Germany)
"Pascal Costanza" <········@web.de> wrote in message
··················@f1node01.rhrz.uni-bonn.de...
> ········@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> > Hi all,
> >
> > How do Lisp programmers feel about agile methodology? Is is a hot field
> > or just another fad? Has it caught on in the Lisp community?
>
> "Lisp programmers were probably the first "agile developers" on the
> planet, because as far back as the mid-60s, many of the practices that
> we know today as "agile practices" or even "extreme programming" were
> already in practice."
>
> See http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?AgileLisp
>
True. And from there one is directed to:
http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?LispMachinesAreComingBack which I am sure many people
will just love to read.
Thanks, Pascal. Great link! :-)
Panos C. Lekkas
·······@ieee.org
"xstream" <·······@attglobal.net> writes:
> "Pascal Costanza" <········@web.de> wrote in message
> ··················@f1node01.rhrz.uni-bonn.de...
>> ········@yahoo.com wrote:
>>
>> > Hi all,
>> >
>> > How do Lisp programmers feel about agile methodology? Is is a hot field
>> > or just another fad? Has it caught on in the Lisp community?
>>
>> "Lisp programmers were probably the first "agile developers" on the
>> planet, because as far back as the mid-60s, many of the practices that
>> we know today as "agile practices" or even "extreme programming" were
>> already in practice."
>>
>> See http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?AgileLisp
>>
>
> True. And from there one is directed to:
> http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?LispMachinesAreComingBack which I am sure many people
> will just love to read.
Now I want a Palm with LispMe... *g*
Regards,
--
____________________________
Julian Stecklina / _________________________/
________________/ /
\_________________/ LISP - truly beautiful
On 2004-11-16 15:31:43, Pascal Costanza wrote:
> ········@yahoo.com wrote:
>> How do Lisp programmers feel about agile methodology? Is is a hot field
>> or just another fad? Has it caught on in the Lisp community?
>
> "Lisp programmers were probably the first "agile developers" on the
And I thought the Russians were first ...
On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 15:31:43 +0100, Pascal Costanza <········@web.de>
wrote:
> ········@yahoo.com wrote:
>
>> Hi all,
>> How do Lisp programmers feel about agile methodology? Is is a hot field
>> or just another fad? Has it caught on in the Lisp community?
>
> "Lisp programmers were probably the first "agile developers" on the
> planet, because as far back as the mid-60s, many of the practices that
> we know today as "agile practices" or even "extreme programming" were
> already in practice."
>
> See http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?AgileLisp
>
>
> Pascal
>
>
I might add that team programming
(That is two programmers on earth computer. One writing the test code. The
other writing the application code.
as described by extreme programming has not been practiced much by lisp
programmers to my knowledge.
Time to start?
--
Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/
John Thingstad wrote:
> On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 15:31:43 +0100, Pascal Costanza <········@web.de>
> wrote:
> > ········@yahoo.com wrote:
> >> How do Lisp programmers feel about agile methodology? Is is a
> >> hot field or just another fad? Has it caught on in the Lisp
> >> community?
> >
> > "Lisp programmers were probably the first "agile developers" on
> > the planet, because as far back as the mid-60s, many of the
> > practices that we know today as "agile practices" or even "extreme
> > programming" were already in practice."
> >
> > See http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?AgileLisp
>
> I might add that team programming
> (That is two programmers on earth computer. One writing the test
> code. The other writing the application code.
> as described by extreme programming has not been practiced much
> by lisp programmers to my knowledge.
> Time to start?
Recently, there were ten of us watching and commenting while Pascal
"drove," programming his own OOP system from scratch. That's what I
call Extreme.
It was like an interactive movie, where you could say to the character,
"Don't go into that room! Don't shadow that function! Why are you using
loop?" (To be serious, Pascal was intentionally shadowing functions to
keep along the lines of CLOS. And it turns out that most people
probably use loop a lot, just that Scheme-influenced people have a
puritanical streak that's hard to break with.)
MfG,
Tayssir
In article <················@mjolner.upc.no>,
"John Thingstad" <··············@chello.no> wrote:
> On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 15:31:43 +0100, Pascal Costanza <········@web.de>
> wrote:
>
> >
> > "Lisp programmers were probably the first "agile developers" on the
> > planet, because as far back as the mid-60s, many of the practices that
> > we know today as "agile practices" or even "extreme programming" were
> > already in practice."
> >
> > See http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?AgileLisp
>
> I might add that team programming
> (That is two programmers on earth computer. One writing the test code. The
> other writing the application code.
> as described by extreme programming has not been practiced much by lisp
> programmers to my knowledge.
I think you're conflating pair programming with test-first
development here, which are key practices in Extreme
Programming, which is one of the agile methodologies, but
not the only one. Extreme Programming takes well-known
practices and turns the dial up to 11.
Pair programming is code review, dialed to 11. All code
is reviewed as it is written. While one person codes,
the other observes, critiques, suggests, etc. You switch
every so often. The claim is that the quality of code
produced, mental blocks avoided, etc., more than make up
for the extra person-power invested.
Test-first development is testing, dialed to 11. If
unit tests are so important, write them first, before
any code is written to pass the tests. This avoids
personal investment in not breaking code you worked so
hard to write, leads to API's designed from a client code
perspective rather than implementation, documents
intended behavior in unambiguous terms, and makes later
modifications much more stable, because of the large
set of unit tests, which are always re-run and must
all pass.
Both of these practices are easy to support in Lisp
(not surprising since they were first developed in
Smalltalk, a similarly dynamic language), but neither
were common practice.
There are several Lisp packages for unit testing. I wrote
a simple one for my Lisp course, available at
http://www.cs.northwestern.edu/academics/courses/325/readings/lisp-unit.html
In article <························@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>,
········@yahoo.com wrote:
> How do Lisp programmers feel about agile methodology? Is is a hot
> field or just another fad? Has it caught on in the Lisp community?
I've enjoyed the Test Driven Development that I've done, both in Lisp
and in Java.
-- Larry