From: Dirk Gerrits
Subject: Re: Lisp, C++ and game development
Date: 
Message-ID: <87oei4urmb.fsf@dirkgerrits.com>
"Jeff M." <·······@gmail.com> writes:

> This doesn't belong in "Lisp sucks" or "C++ sucks". Nor is this a rant
> on either language, so let's not start any flame wars. However, as a
> professional, console game developer (that happens to love Lisp), I
> thought I'd post my feelings on this subject...
>
> http://www.retrobyte.org/essays.php
>
> I'm sure people will agree, disagree and agree to disagree. That's
> fine. But I'd like any [constructive] feedback on the essay.

Just a couple of points.

You write: 

"(loop (progn
         (update-ai)
         (update-physics)
         (render-world)))"

But why not just:

(loop 
 (update-ai)
 (update-physics)
 (render-world))

?

Further down you write "most of the advantages Lisp has in processing
numbers (bignums, inherent complex data types, etc) aren't used in
games, anyway".  I agree with this, but I do wonder whether such
features don't just remain unused only because they aren't readily
available.  Compare this with Paul Graham not missing recursion in
Basic. [1]

Overall I like your essay, but with all due respect, I seriously doubt
its ability to stop any flame wars. ;)

Kind regards,

Dirk Gerrits

[1] http://www.paulgraham.com/avg.html

From: Jeff
Subject: Re: Lisp, C++ and game development
Date: 
Message-ID: <SbTkd.496886$mD.119815@attbi_s02>
Dirk Gerrits wrote:

> "Jeff M." <·······@gmail.com> writes:
> 
> > This doesn't belong in "Lisp sucks" or "C++ sucks". Nor is this a
> > rant on either language, so let's not start any flame wars.
> > However, as a professional, console game developer (that happens to
> > love Lisp), I thought I'd post my feelings on this subject...
> > 
> > http://www.retrobyte.org/essays.php
> > 
> > I'm sure people will agree, disagree and agree to disagree. That's
> > fine. But I'd like any [constructive] feedback on the essay.
> 
> Just a couple of points.
> 
> But why not just:
> 
> (loop 
>  (update-ai)
>  (update-physics)
>  (render-world))

Ack! You're right. Fixed.

> Further down you write "most of the advantages Lisp has in processing
> numbers (bignums, inherent complex data types, etc) aren't used in
> games, anyway".  I agree with this, but I do wonder whether such
> features don't just remain unused only because they aren't readily
> available. 

I've often wondered exactly the same thing. I don't know the answer,
but my gut reaction would be to say 'no', only because games are simple
in nature (kids play them, so they have to be). I could possibly see
some of these data types being used, like bit arrays for genetic
algorithms, though.

> Overall I like your essay, but with all due respect, I seriously doubt
> its ability to stop any flame wars. ;)

Thanks. And I agree, but hopefully the next time someone reads Jack
Palevich's article and comes over here to post, the first reply might
be the above URL and "nuf sed".

Jeff M.

-- 
(surf-to "http://www.retrobyte.org/")
(mail-to (concatenate 'string "massung" ·@" "gmail.com"))
From: Dirk Gerrits
Subject: Re: Lisp, C++ and game development
Date: 
Message-ID: <87y8h7qe81.fsf@dirkgerrits.com>
"Jeff" <·······@gmail.com> writes:

> Dirk Gerrits wrote:
>
>> Further down you write "most of the advantages Lisp has in processing
>> numbers (bignums, inherent complex data types, etc) aren't used in
>> games, anyway".  I agree with this, but I do wonder whether such
>> features don't just remain unused only because they aren't readily
>> available. 
>
> I've often wondered exactly the same thing. I don't know the answer,
> but my gut reaction would be to say 'no', only because games are simple
> in nature (kids play them, so they have to be). I could possibly see
> some of these data types being used, like bit arrays for genetic
> algorithms, though.

I was thinking on a larger scale.  Common Lisp's built-in data
structures are very nice, but that's just one small piece of the puzzle.

Way back when Lisp was young (and was still called LISP) people were
using it for things that were absolutely inconceivable in other
languages of the time.  All that despite these languages all being
Turing complete and thus "equivalent in power".

Nowadays, the other language camps have a huge advantage in numbers, and
have stolen some bits and pieces from Lisp here and there, allowing them
to also pull off incredible feats.  

I am very interested to see whether or not, and to what extent, an
advantage in language outweighs an advantage in numbers.  Can Lispers
create really good games that would not be reasonable to create in
C/C++/Java/C#?  I don't know, but I'd rather try then torture myself
with C++ any longer.

>> Overall I like your essay, but with all due respect, I seriously doubt
>> its ability to stop any flame wars. ;)
>
> Thanks. And I agree, but hopefully the next time someone reads Jack
> Palevich's article and comes over here to post, the first reply might
> be the above URL and "nuf sed".

I doubt it, but let's hope for it anyway. :)

Kind regards,

Dirk Gerrits