Jeff M. wrote:
> This doesn't belong in "Lisp sucks" or "C++ sucks". Nor is this a rant
> on either language, so let's not start any flame wars. However, as a
> professional, console game developer (that happens to love Lisp), I
> thought I'd post my feelings on this subject...
>
> http://www.retrobyte.org/essays.php
>
> I'm sure people will agree, disagree and agree to disagree. That's
> fine. But I'd like any [constructive] feedback on the essay.
At the end you state:
"The only (console) development house that I'm aware of to use Lisp was
Naughty Doc, Inc. for the game Crash Bandicoot."
I was under the impression that Naughty Dog used Lisp primarily for Jak
(the postmortem linked to is for Jak and Daxter)) and not for Crash
Bandicoot. I know that Sucker Punch also uses a Lisp for their Sly
Cooper games, though from talking to them it appears to be a stripped
down Lisp without most of the interactive development features that make
Lisp so appealing.
-- MJF
From: Duane Rettig
Subject: Re: Lisp, C++ and game development
Date:
Message-ID: <4bre4nmgu.fsf@franz.com>
"Jeff M." <·······@gmail.com> writes:
> It was my understanding that GOAL was written for Crash Bandicoot and
> was used on subsequent titles (like Jak and Daxter). Jak was just what
> the post-mortem was on. Someone please correct me if I am wrong,
> though.
No, GOAL was written for Jak and Daxter. An earlier version,
called GOOL (Game object oriented language) was also written
in CL (using Allegro CL) and produced output that was run on
the target (PS2) with an engine written in either C or C++
(can't remember which). GOAL uses similar technology, but is
a newer generation than GOOL, and not only produces the character
data for the game, but also the engine.
Lisp will never win this argument. When I mentioned ND and
Crash may years ago in this newsgroup, it was met with a
comment like "but that's not _really_ using Lisp for games;
show me a game that actually _runs_ in Lisp, and I'll be
convinced". So when Andy Gavin did just that (unbeknownst to me,
until he asked us for help in optimizing the compiler) - we now
get "yes, but there are not enough of them to _really_ be
considered as using Lisp in games". And so on, and so on...
--
Duane Rettig ·····@franz.com Franz Inc. http://www.franz.com/
555 12th St., Suite 1450 http://www.555citycenter.com/
Oakland, Ca. 94607 Phone: (510) 452-2000; Fax: (510) 452-0182
In article <························@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
"Tayssir John Gabbour" <···········@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Duane Rettig wrote:
> > Lisp will never win this argument. When I mentioned ND and
> > Crash may years ago in this newsgroup, it was met with a
> > comment like "but that's not _really_ using Lisp for games;
> > show me a game that actually _runs_ in Lisp, and I'll be
> > convinced". So when Andy Gavin did just that (unbeknownst to me,
> > until he asked us for help in optimizing the compiler) - we now
> > get "yes, but there are not enough of them to _really_ be
> > considered as using Lisp in games". And so on, and so on...
>
> Fortunately, Lisp doesn't need to "win" in the sense of beating back
> the arguments of all comers. The games industry is enormously messed up
> on all sorts of levels:
> http://www.livejournal.com/users/ea_spouse/
>
Boy, just reading that made something click. At least one of the recent
Roads to lisp began because some hardcore types on a game development
forum periodically launch into rants on the greatness of Lisp.
Maybe GQ should be talking to them instead of us. :)
kt
Kenneth Tilton <·······@nyc.rr.com> writes:
> "Tayssir John Gabbour" <···········@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> http://www.livejournal.com/users/ea_spouse/
>
> Boy, just reading that made something click. At least one of the recent
> Roads to lisp began because some hardcore types on a game development
> forum periodically launch into rants on the greatness of Lisp.
Do you mean http://alu.cliki.net/Dirk%20Gerrits's%20Road%20to%20Lisp ?
In that case, the hardcore type would be Vesa Karvonen, the game
development forum would be Flipcode, and one of the periodical rant
would be
http://www.flipcode.com/cgi-bin/fcmsg.cgi?thread_show=6459&msg=41559.
It is now two years later to the day, and all my ambitions of working
60-80 hour weeks in a cubicle of some game development house hacking C++
have melted away. Does any one sell "Lisp shattered my life-long
dreams" T-shirts? ;)
Kind regards,
Dirk Gerrits
Dirk Gerrits wrote:
> Kenneth Tilton <·······@nyc.rr.com> writes:
>
>> "Tayssir John Gabbour" <···········@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>>http://www.livejournal.com/users/ea_spouse/
>>
>>Boy, just reading that made something click. At least one of the recent
>>Roads to lisp began because some hardcore types on a game development
>>forum periodically launch into rants on the greatness of Lisp.
>
>
> Do you mean http://alu.cliki.net/Dirk%20Gerrits's%20Road%20to%20Lisp ?
> In that case, the hardcore type would be Vesa Karvonen, the game
> development forum would be Flipcode, and one of the periodical rant
> would be
> http://www.flipcode.com/cgi-bin/fcmsg.cgi?thread_show=6459&msg=41559.
>
> It is now two years later to the day, and all my ambitions of working
> 60-80 hour weeks in a cubicle of some game development house hacking C++
> have melted away. Does any one sell "Lisp shattered my life-long
> dreams" T-shirts? ;)
However, working 60-80 hours a week hacking Common Lisp is hardly a
solution :)
Cheers
--
Marco
On Fri, 12 Nov 2004 15:08:03 GMT, Dirk Gerrits <····@dirkgerrits.com>
wrote:
>
> It is now two years later to the day, and all my ambitions of working
> 60-80 hour weeks in a cubicle of some game development house hacking C++
> have melted away. Does any one sell "Lisp shattered my life-long
> dreams" T-shirts? ;)
>
> Kind regards,
>
> Dirk Gerrits
Naw, but I have a "I lost 10 years of my life to C++" T shirt :)
--
Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/
"John Thingstad" <··············@chello.no> wrote in message news:<················@mjolner.upc.no>...
> On Fri, 12 Nov 2004 15:08:03 GMT, Dirk Gerrits <····@dirkgerrits.com>
> wrote:
> > It is now two years later to the day, and all my ambitions of working
> > 60-80 hour weeks in a cubicle of some game development house hacking C++
> > have melted away. Does any one sell "Lisp shattered my life-long
> > dreams" T-shirts? ;)
>
> Naw, but I have a "I lost 10 years of my life to C++" T shirt :)
I should think about making a t-shirt pointing out there's two common
language families: the Lisp family, and the LOOP family. ;) The way I
deal with programming less expressive languages is to think, "Well,
I'm programming using the Loop macro," and suddenly it's the same
silly fun as making a LOOP. You know, all these naming ceremonies...
"I dub thee tmp1!"
MfG,
Tayssir
"John Thingstad" <··············@chello.no> writes:
> On Fri, 12 Nov 2004 15:08:03 GMT, Dirk Gerrits <····@dirkgerrits.com>
> wrote:
>> Does any one sell "Lisp shattered my life-long dreams" T-shirts? ;)
>
> Naw, but I have a "I lost 10 years of my life to C++" T shirt :)
Ooh, gimme. :)
Kind regards,
Dirk Gerrits
Tayssir John Gabbour wrote:
> The games industry is enormously messed
> up on all sorts of levels:
> http://www.livejournal.com/users/ea_spouse/
Haha! That's great. We were all just laughing at it here at my work
today, in fact. We have several former EA employees on staff and they
confirm every word of it. Thank goodness most development studios are
not like that.
Jeff M.
--
(surf-to "http://www.retrobyte.org/")
(mail-to (concatenate 'string "massung" ·@" "gmail.com"))
"Tayssir John Gabbour" <···········@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<························@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>...
> And frankly, seeing what's going on in my nation, I am frankly not
> surprised that people will actively work against their own
> self-interest, believe the most hyper-simplified binary versions of
> reality, and so forth.
I'm curious--what is your nation?
Mark McConnell wrote:
> "Tayssir John Gabbour" <···········@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:<························@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>...
> > And frankly, seeing what's going on in my nation, I am frankly not
> > surprised that people will actively work against their own
> > self-interest, believe the most hyper-simplified binary versions of
> > reality, and so forth.
>
> I'm curious--what is your nation?
US. I think the main presidential candidates were too similar, and
neither offered people what they really needed; unless distractions are
what we need.
What is there to say; politicians are salesmen whose currency is votes.
MfG,
Tayssir
Quoth Tayssir John Gabbour on or about 2004-11-13:
> US. I think the main presidential candidates were too similar, and
> neither offered people what they really needed; unless distractions are
> what we need.
I feel sorry for Bill Van Auken -- more people voted `None of the Above'
than for him. Only 2078 votes from the whole of .us, poor bastard.
-t
Trent Buck wrote:
> Quoth Tayssir John Gabbour on or about 2004-11-13:
> > US. I think the main presidential candidates were too similar, and
> > neither offered people what they really needed; unless
> > distractions are what we need.
>
> I feel sorry for Bill Van Auken -- more people voted `None of the
> Above' than for him. Only 2078 votes from the whole of .us, poor
> bastard.
The Dems have, showing typical contempt for free speech, have pulled
out an array of dirty tactics to stop citizens from voting for who we
want:
http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?NaderVsTheLeastWorst
I mean, obviously I thought swing-state voting for the Least Worst was
important. But that's the trap -- voting out of fear for the Least
Worst, so the Dems can expect to win a reasonable ~50% of the time. I
suspect though, they can no longer play this game against the
well-mobilized GOP; the GOP is very effective on a grassroots level.
MfG,
Tayssir
From: Tim Bradshaw
Subject: Re: Lisp, C++ and game development
Date:
Message-ID: <ey3654bz97c.fsf@cley.com>
* Duane Rettig wrote:
> Lisp will never win this argument. When I mentioned ND and
> Crash may years ago in this newsgroup, it was met with a
> comment like "but that's not _really_ using Lisp for games;
> show me a game that actually _runs_ in Lisp, and I'll be
> convinced". So when Andy Gavin did just that (unbeknownst to me,
> until he asked us for help in optimizing the compiler) - we now
> get "yes, but there are not enough of them to _really_ be
> considered as using Lisp in games". And so on, and so on...
Well, I think it depends on the definition of `win'. It tends to end
up meaning `persuade people whose minds have been destroyed by various
ideological cults to agree with you'. Well, you can never win in that
sense, just because the people concerned (on both sides) don't have
fully functioning minds, and so *can't* be persuaded. I'd rather see
an alternative definition: `make loads of money'.
--tim
From: Duane Rettig
Subject: Re: Lisp, C++ and game development
Date:
Message-ID: <4actn7yt1.fsf@franz.com>
Tim Bradshaw <···@cley.com> writes:
> * Duane Rettig wrote:
> > Lisp will never win this argument. When I mentioned ND and
> > Crash may years ago in this newsgroup, it was met with a
> > comment like "but that's not _really_ using Lisp for games;
> > show me a game that actually _runs_ in Lisp, and I'll be
> > convinced". So when Andy Gavin did just that (unbeknownst to me,
> > until he asked us for help in optimizing the compiler) - we now
> > get "yes, but there are not enough of them to _really_ be
> > considered as using Lisp in games". And so on, and so on...
>
> Well, I think it depends on the definition of `win'. It tends to end
> up meaning `persuade people whose minds have been destroyed by various
> ideological cults to agree with you'. Well, you can never win in that
> sense, just because the people concerned (on both sides) don't have
> fully functioning minds, and so *can't* be persuaded. I'd rather see
> an alternative definition: `make loads of money'.
But if you mean "everyone makes loads of money", then the only such
schemes like that are called "get rich quick" schemes. And if you
mean "some people make loads of money", then Lisp has already "won".
--
Duane Rettig ·····@franz.com Franz Inc. http://www.franz.com/
555 12th St., Suite 1450 http://www.555citycenter.com/
Oakland, Ca. 94607 Phone: (510) 452-2000; Fax: (510) 452-0182