From: Sam Steingold
Subject: GNU CLISP 2.33.1 (2004-05-22) bug fix release
Date: 
Message-ID: <ulljfudw0.fsf@gnu.org>
Common Lisp is a high-level, general-purpose programming language.
GNU CLISP is a Common Lisp implementation by Bruno Haible of Karlsruhe
University and Michael Stoll of Munich University, both in Germany.
It mostly supports the Lisp described in the ANSI Common Lisp standard.
It runs on most Unix workstations (Linux, FreeBSD, NetBSD, OpenBSD,
Solaris, Tru64, HP-UX, BeOS, NeXTstep, IRIX, AIX and others) and on
other systems (Windows NT/2000/XP, Windows 95/98/ME) and needs only
2 MB of RAM.
It is Free Software and may be distributed under the terms of GNU GPL,
while it is possible to distribute commercial proprietary applications
compiled with GNU CLISP.
The user interface comes in German, English, French, Spanish, Dutch
and Russian.
GNU CLISP includes an interpreter, a compiler, a debugger, CLOS,
a foreign language interface, sockets, i18n, fast bignums and more.
An X11 interface is available through CLX, Garnet, CLUE/CLIO.
GNU CLISP runs Maxima, ACL2 and many other Common Lisp packages.

More information at
  <http://clisp.cons.org/>,
  <http://www.clisp.org/>,
  <http://www.gnu.org/software/clisp/> and
  <http://clisp.sourceforge.net/>.
Sources and selected binaries are available by anonymous ftp from
  <ftp://ftp.gnu.org/pub/gnu/clisp/>
and their mirrors.


2.33.1 (2004-05-22)
===================

User visible changes
--------------------

* Bug fixes:
  + The return value of ASINH was always rounded to a SINGLE-FLOAT.
  + The return value of NSTRING-UPCASE, NSTRING-DOWNCASE, NSTRING-CAPITALIZE,
    WRITE-STRING, WRITE-LINE, when called with a displaced string as argument,
    was wrong.
  + Some cases of ,@ inside doubly-nested backquote led to an unjustified
    error.

Portability
-----------

* Improved portability for Solaris/SPARC64 in 64-bit mode.

* Buildable with GCC-3.4.

* Fixed a bug in (ASH x MOST-NEGATIVE-FIXNUM) on some platforms.

* Fixed a bug in (SIGNUM negative-single-float) on 64-bit platforms.

* Fixed a bug in (LOGAND fixnum bignum), (LOGNAND fixnum bignum),
  (LOGANDC2 fixnum bignum), (LOGANDC1 bignum fixnum) on some rare platforms.


-- 
Sam Steingold (http://www.podval.org/~sds) running w2k
<http://www.camera.org> <http://www.iris.org.il> <http://www.memri.org/>
<http://www.mideasttruth.com/> <http://www.honestreporting.com>
Please wait, MS Windows are preparing the blue screen of death.

From: ace
Subject: Re: GNU CLISP 2.33.1 (2004-05-22) bug fix release
Date: 
Message-ID: <W_atc.4153$193.3989@news02.roc.ny>
Sam Steingold wrote:
> Common Lisp is a high-level, general-purpose programming language.
> GNU CLISP is a Common Lisp implementation by Bruno Haible of Karlsruhe
> University and Michael Stoll of Munich University, both in Germany.
> It mostly supports the Lisp described in the ANSI Common Lisp standard.
> It runs on most Unix workstations (Linux, FreeBSD, NetBSD, OpenBSD,
> Solaris, Tru64, HP-UX, BeOS, NeXTstep, IRIX, AIX and others) and on
> other systems (Windows NT/2000/XP, Windows 95/98/ME) and needs only
> 2 MB of RAM.
> It is Free Software and may be distributed under the terms of GNU GPL,
> while it is possible to distribute commercial proprietary applications
> compiled with GNU CLISP.
> The user interface comes in German, English, French, Spanish, Dutch
> and Russian.
> GNU CLISP includes an interpreter, a compiler, a debugger, CLOS,
> a foreign language interface, sockets, i18n, fast bignums and more.
> An X11 interface is available through CLX, Garnet, CLUE/CLIO.
> GNU CLISP runs Maxima, ACL2 and many other Common Lisp packages.
> 
> More information at
>   <http://clisp.cons.org/>,
>   <http://www.clisp.org/>,
>   <http://www.gnu.org/software/clisp/> and
>   <http://clisp.sourceforge.net/>.
> Sources and selected binaries are available by anonymous ftp from
>   <ftp://ftp.gnu.org/pub/gnu/clisp/>
> and their mirrors.
> 
> 
> 2.33.1 (2004-05-22)
> ===================
> 
> User visible changes
> --------------------
> 
> * Bug fixes:
>   + The return value of ASINH was always rounded to a SINGLE-FLOAT.
>   + The return value of NSTRING-UPCASE, NSTRING-DOWNCASE, NSTRING-CAPITALIZE,
>     WRITE-STRING, WRITE-LINE, when called with a displaced string as argument,
>     was wrong.
>   + Some cases of ,@ inside doubly-nested backquote led to an unjustified
>     error.
> 
> Portability
> -----------
> 
> * Improved portability for Solaris/SPARC64 in 64-bit mode.
> 
> * Buildable with GCC-3.4.
> 
> * Fixed a bug in (ASH x MOST-NEGATIVE-FIXNUM) on some platforms.
> 
> * Fixed a bug in (SIGNUM negative-single-float) on 64-bit platforms.
> 
> * Fixed a bug in (LOGAND fixnum bignum), (LOGNAND fixnum bignum),
>   (LOGANDC2 fixnum bignum), (LOGANDC1 bignum fixnum) on some rare platforms.
> 
> 

That's great news! When can you get around to offering this alternative 
to the menorah banner? (personally, I'd rather not see any religious 
material in open source software, but since we have to...)

; clisp
   #     #######       ooooo    o        ooooooo   ooooo   ooooo
   #     #            8     8   8           8     8     o  8    8
   #     #            8         8           8     8        8    8
   #############      8         8           8      ooooo   8oooo
         #     #      8         8           8           8  8
         #     #      8     o   8           8     o     8  8
   #######     #       ooooo    8oooooo  ooo8ooo   ooooo   8

Copyright (c) Bruno Haible, Michael Stoll 1992, 1993
Copyright (c) Bruno Haible, Marcus Daniels 1994-1997
Copyright (c) Bruno Haible, Pierpaolo Bernardi, Sam Steingold 1998
Copyright (c) Bruno Haible, Sam Steingold 1999-2001


[1]>
From: David Sletten
Subject: Re: GNU CLISP 2.33.1 (2004-05-22) bug fix release
Date: 
Message-ID: <OAbtc.20372$wO4.14347@twister.socal.rr.com>
ace wrote:
[Unbelievably idiotic post snipped]

Hmmm...'ace' is it? I haven't figured out what the 'e' stands for, but 
obviously you've aptly chosen the first two letters you Anonymous Coward!

David Sletten
From: ace
Subject: Re: GNU CLISP 2.33.1 (2004-05-22) bug fix release
Date: 
Message-ID: <LObtc.427$QV7.194@news01.roc.ny>
David Sletten wrote:
[Unbelievable knee-jerk reaction snipped]

What's the difference? Both symbols were/are heavily used by 
national-socialist regimes.

If one obviously out-of-place symbol is OK for this project, why not the 
other?
From: David Sletten
Subject: Re: GNU CLISP 2.33.1 (2004-05-22) bug fix release
Date: 
Message-ID: <j8ctc.20373$wO4.6587@twister.socal.rr.com>
ace wrote:


> What's the difference? Both symbols were/are heavily used by 
> national-socialist regimes.
> 
If you don't recognize the difference you are clearly either:
A. A complete idiot
or
B. A proponent of a twisted racist ideology (See A. above).

In either case it is unlikely that you would be capable of benefitting 
from the explanation I'm not going to waste my time writing.

> If one obviously out-of-place symbol is OK for this project, why not the 
> other?
The creators of an open source project may choose any symbol they desire 
to represent their project. You may choose whether or not to use that 
project. One significant difference here, however, is that the creators 
of this project weren't afraid to list their names. You, on the other 
hand, are heroic enough to hide behind an anonymous alias. Be proud of 
yourself.

The only thing out of place here is your idiotic, offensive post on the 
Lisp newsgroup. There are certainly lots of rocks on the Internet for 
you to crawl under. Please do us all a favor and find one.

David Sletten
From: Andreas Scholta
Subject: Re: GNU CLISP 2.33.1 (2004-05-22) bug fix release
Date: 
Message-ID: <87iseimwjx.fsf@solace.kozmoz.org>
David Sletten <·····@slytobias.com> writes:

> ace wrote:
> 
> 
> > What's the difference? Both symbols were/are heavily used by
> > national-socialist regimes.
> > 
> If you don't recognize the difference you are clearly either:
> A. A complete idiot
> or
> B. A proponent of a twisted racist ideology (See A. above).

Hum, his explanation did not sound like something coming from the type B
guy of poster. I wager that he isn't A either. And in fact, I guess
that depending on the audience, both symbols have offensive
potential. Let's remember that that the one symbol ace introduced did
not originate in nazi times. The knowledge of national socialism and
the commited crimes related to it is what makes the difference today.

> use that project. One significant difference here, however, is that
> the creators of this project weren't afraid to list their names. You,
> on the other hand, are heroic enough to hide behind an anonymous
> alias. Be proud of yourself.

argumentatum ad hominem?
 
> The only thing out of place here is your idiotic, offensive post on
> the Lisp newsgroup. There are certainly lots of rocks on the Internet
> for you to crawl under. Please do us all a favor and find one.

True, this is no place for political, religious, idealogical (non-tech.)
advocacy. In fact that last paragraph of yours would have sufficed to
make the point.

-- 
cheers,
    Andreas Scholta
From: Per Abrahamsen
Subject: Re: GNU CLISP 2.33.1 (2004-05-22) bug fix release
Date: 
Message-ID: <cXgtc.4213$eH3.74359@news4.e.nsc.no>
Andreas Scholta wrote:

> David Sletten <·····@slytobias.com> writes:
> 
>> ace wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> > What's the difference? Both symbols were/are heavily used by
>> > national-socialist regimes.
>> > 
>> If you don't recognize the difference you are clearly either:
>> A. A complete idiot
>> or
>> B. A proponent of a twisted racist ideology (See A. above).
> 
> Hum, his explanation did not sound like something coming from the type B
> guy of poster. I wager that he isn't A either. And in fact, I guess
> that depending on the audience, both symbols have offensive
> potential. Let's remember that that the one symbol ace introduced did
> not originate in nazi times. The knowledge of national socialism and
> the commited crimes related to it is what makes the difference today.
> 
I'm still annoyed at the Nazis, myself; my family used to use that sigil
as a seal in ancient (read, anything before WW2) times.

Talk about dragging things through the mud...
From: Stefan Scholl
Subject: Re: GNU CLISP 2.33.1 (2004-05-22) bug fix release
Date: 
Message-ID: <1ctuidvm5bpv7.dlg@parsec.no-spoon.de>
On 2004-05-27 09:41:48, Per Abrahamsen wrote:

> I'm still annoyed at the Nazis, myself; my family used to use that sigil
> as a seal in ancient (read, anything before WW2) times.

Oh, like Rudyard Kipling.
From: Tayssir John Gabbour
Subject: Re: GNU CLISP 2.33.1 (2004-05-22) bug fix release
Date: 
Message-ID: <866764be.0405270556.7c67b09f@posting.google.com>
David Sletten <·····@slytobias.com> wrote in message news:<····················@twister.socal.rr.com>...
> > If one obviously out-of-place symbol is OK for this project, why not the 
> > other?
> 
> The creators of an open source project may choose any symbol they desire 
> to represent their project. You may choose whether or not to use that 
> project. One significant difference here, however, is that the creators 
> of this project weren't afraid to list their names. You, on the other 
> hand, are heroic enough to hide behind an anonymous alias. Be proud of 
> yourself.

The authors put it there to provoke discussion and learning.
Unfortunately they get a lot of posts from guys like the one you're
replying to. But the faq [1] intentionally stimulates thought:

- Students boycotting arms deals is evidence of Naziism:
On Menachem Begin, an Israeli scholar wrote, "Begin's indiscriminate
evocation of the Holocaust may have been his most flagrant
transgression... [since he] politicized, and thereby trivialized, the
single most tragic chapter in Jewish history." [2]

Clisp's authors, who claim not to have been born Jewish, seem to be
coming on like some pretty ballsy representatives of a people. I
suspect they're intentionally spurring discussion.


- Tienanmen Square:
Any American who's read a newspaper is involuntarily reminded of
Rachel Corrie. A nonviolent American woman who heroically stood in
front of a bulldozer driven by an Israeli solder -- and was mangled
and killed underneath it. I think the US has proven itself to surpass
any conceivable country in history as a friend to the Israelis, and
yet we are treated to this irony.

I think the authors want us to ask why our own gov't has ignored the
issue, why it didn't get all Sabra/Shatilla on that solder's derriere.
Their faq is making a political statement.



[1] http://clisp.cons.org/faq.html#menorah

[2] Quoted in p.637 of Tessler's book from Sachar's book.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0253208734/
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0075535599/
From: Cameron MacKinnon
Subject: Re: GNU CLISP 2.33.1 (2004-05-22) bug fix release
Date: 
Message-ID: <DvCdnUVHMrNxaSjdRVn-jw@golden.net>
David Sletten wrote:
> The creators of an open source project may choose any symbol they desire 
> to represent their project. You may choose whether or not to use that 
> project. One significant difference here, however, is that the creators 
> of this project weren't afraid to list their names. You, on the other 
> hand, are heroic enough to hide behind an anonymous alias. Be proud of 
> yourself.

While your first point is unarguably true, it elides the fact that most 
software authors have chosen, wisely, to present professional looking 
software which refrains from commenting on politics, religion or the 
weather, except as may be necessary in the course of its duties. The 
CLISP authors have ignored this tradition, and as a result attract the 
occasional post such as Ace's, which they obviously regard as being a 
small enough price to pay for their annoying billboards.

While we're on the topic of what the CLISP creators were or weren't 
afraid to do, the canonical CLISP FAQ addresses the logo question, but 
doesn't answer it, instead punting and suggesting that the curious write 
the authors themselves, though downplaying the expectation of an answer. 
How helpful!

> The only thing out of place here is your idiotic, offensive post on the 
> Lisp newsgroup. There are certainly lots of rocks on the Internet for 
> you to crawl under. Please do us all a favor and find one.

If this is the place for CLISP announcements, then this is the place for 
CLISP criticism. Ace's critique may be tasteless, but it isn't baseless.

-- 
Cameron MacKinnon
Toronto, Canada
From: Michael Livshin
Subject: Re: GNU CLISP 2.33.1 (2004-05-22) bug fix release
Date: 
Message-ID: <s3n03thpk8.fsf@boss.verisity.com.cmm>
Cameron MacKinnon <··········@clearspot.net> writes:

> most software authors have chosen, wisely, to present professional
> looking software which refrains from commenting on politics,
> religion or the weather, except as may be necessary in the course of
> its duties. The CLISP authors have ignored this tradition, and as a
> result attract the occasional post such as Ace's, which they
> obviously regard as being a small enough price to pay for their
> annoying billboards.

um.  what's _political_ about the menorah symbol, and why are you
annoyed by it?

-- 
The software isn't finished until the last user is dead.
From: Cameron MacKinnon
Subject: Re: GNU CLISP 2.33.1 (2004-05-22) bug fix release
Date: 
Message-ID: <56udnQDZAr-lkCvdRVn-hg@golden.net>
Michael Livshin wrote:
> Cameron MacKinnon <··········@clearspot.net> writes:
> 
> 
>>most software authors have chosen, wisely, to present professional
>>looking software which refrains from commenting on politics,
>>religion or the weather, except as may be necessary in the course of
>>its duties. The CLISP authors have ignored this tradition, and as a
>>result attract the occasional post such as Ace's, which they
>>obviously regard as being a small enough price to pay for their
>>annoying billboards.
> 
> 
> um.  what's _political_ about the menorah symbol, and why are you
> annoyed by it?

You should direct your first question to the CLISP authors. While I find 
the menorah an odd choice (as I don't see it as a political symbol 
either), the FAQ says that its inclusion is a political expression.

As to my annoyance, I'd be almost as annoyed if the program came up with 
"Go Manchester United!" - it's simply juvenile, and guaranteed to lead 
to flamefests.

-- 
Cameron MacKinnon
Toronto, Canada
From: Michael Livshin
Subject: Re: GNU CLISP 2.33.1 (2004-05-22) bug fix release
Date: 
Message-ID: <s3isehhmni.fsf@boss.verisity.com.cmm>
Cameron MacKinnon <··········@clearspot.net> writes:

> While I find the menorah an odd choice (as I don't see it as a
> political symbol either), the FAQ says that its inclusion is a
> political expression.

I don't think that's quite what the FAQ says, actually.

> As to my annoyance, I'd be almost as annoyed if the program came up
> with "Go Manchester United!" - it's simply juvenile, and guaranteed
> to lead to flamefests.

so, are you saying "it annoys me because I know that it annoys some
people"?  why did you feel compelled to add to the pointless noise,
then?

-- 
Perhaps it IS a good day to die; I say we ship it!
                                        -- Klingon Programmer
From: Cameron MacKinnon
Subject: Re: GNU CLISP 2.33.1 (2004-05-22) bug fix release
Date: 
Message-ID: <EfidnVSYMbT2vivdRVn-sw@golden.net>
Michael Livshin wrote:
> Cameron MacKinnon <··········@clearspot.net> writes:
> 
> 
>>While I find the menorah an odd choice (as I don't see it as a
>>political symbol either), the FAQ says that its inclusion is a
>>political expression.
> 
> 
> I don't think that's quite what the FAQ says, actually.

I think that it's exactly what the FAQ says. Perhaps you should read it 
and, if you still feel the same way, report back to us with quotes to 
buttress your position.


-- 
Cameron MacKinnon
Toronto, Canada
From: Michael Livshin
Subject: Re: GNU CLISP 2.33.1 (2004-05-22) bug fix release
Date: 
Message-ID: <s365ahhhmf.fsf@boss.verisity.com.cmm>
Cameron MacKinnon <··········@clearspot.net> writes:

> I think that it's exactly what the FAQ says. Perhaps you should read
> it

I did, you twit.  I also, unlike you, happen to possess elementary
reading comprehension skills.

> and, if you still feel the same way, report back to us with quotes
> to buttress your position.

here is a quote:

"CLISP has been using the menorah for the logo since the project was
first started in the late 1980-ies by Bruno Haible and Michael
Stoll. This /probably/ reflects the authors' affection toward the
Jewish people, Judaism or the State of Israel".

I fail to see how the above can be interpreted as saying that the
menorah is being used as a political symbol.  are you perhaps offended
in some way by the words "Jewish", "Judaism" or "Israel"?

*plonk*

-- 
Computer Science is embarrassed by the computer.
                -- Alan Perlis
From: Cameron MacKinnon
Subject: Re: GNU CLISP 2.33.1 (2004-05-22) bug fix release
Date: 
Message-ID: <40B63779.8070900@clearspot.net>
Michael Livshin wrote:
> here is a quote:
> 
> "CLISP has been using the menorah for the logo since the project was
> first started in the late 1980-ies by Bruno Haible and Michael
> Stoll. This /probably/ reflects the authors' affection toward the
> Jewish people, Judaism or the State of Israel".
> 
> I fail to see how the above can be interpreted as saying that the
> menorah is being used as a political symbol.  

"Expressing our opinion is a quite natural thing for us, be it artistic 
preferences, political views or religious beliefs. The use of the 
menorah has its roots somewhere between these areas..."

The bit you chose to quote is written in the third person, and is 
obviously speculation (in a FAQ, no less!), whereas the bit you ignored 
is written in the first person. Further evidence abounds in the FAQ, as 
you well know.

Intellectual dishonesty and being economical with the truth will get you 
nowhere, Mr. Livshin.

http://clisp.sourceforge.net/faq.html#menorah

-- 
Cameron MacKinnon
Toronto, Canada
From: David Steuber
Subject: Re: GNU CLISP 2.33.1 (2004-05-22) bug fix release
Date: 
Message-ID: <87isehookh.fsf@david-steuber.com>
Michael Livshin <······@cmm.kakpryg.net> writes:

> um.  what's _political_ about the menorah symbol, and why are you
> annoyed by it?

Once religion and politics are mixed, it is very difficult to seperate
them.  Anyway, a more pertinent question would be, "why did anyone
bother to follow up ace's article?"

Don't get me started on the weather...

-- 
An ideal world is left as an excercise to the reader.
   --- Paul Graham, On Lisp 8.1
From: Paul Dietz
Subject: Re: GNU CLISP 2.33.1 (2004-05-22) bug fix release
Date: 
Message-ID: <40B62184.96680D38@motorola.com>
David Steuber wrote:

>  Anyway, a more pertinent question would be, "why did anyone
> bother to follow up ace's article?"

Wasn't it a perfect candidate for Godwin's law?

	Paul
From: David Steuber
Subject: Re: GNU CLISP 2.33.1 (2004-05-22) bug fix release
Date: 
Message-ID: <873c5lo2y6.fsf@david-steuber.com>
Paul Dietz <············@motorola.com> writes:

> David Steuber wrote:
> 
> >  Anyway, a more pertinent question would be, "why did anyone
> > bother to follow up ace's article?"
> 
> Wasn't it a perfect candidate for Godwin's law?

Quite likely.

And if one wanted to answser the question about why not use a
swastika, I think the answer might be for legal reasons.  The code
would probably not be legal to distribute in France and Germany.  If I
got that right, I expect it would be very inconvenient for the
authors.

What CLISP actually has is a nice bit of ascii art in the banner.  I
really don't see what the big deal is.  I don't have CLISP on this
machine, but I wouldn't be at all surprised if there was a command
line option to suppress (or would that be oppress ;-) the banner.

It's probably long past time to score down this thread now that I've
read the useful anouncment about an updated release of a fine piece of
software.

-- 
An ideal world is left as an excercise to the reader.
   --- Paul Graham, On Lisp 8.1
From: Christophe Rhodes
Subject: banners (was Re: GNU CLISP 2.33.1 (2004-05-22) bug fix release)
Date: 
Message-ID: <sqfz9lxb4q.fsf_-_@cam.ac.uk>
David Steuber <·····@david-steuber.com> writes:

> It's probably long past time to score down this thread now that I've
> read the useful anouncment about an updated release of a fine piece of
> software.

I hope that doesn't stop you from reading my recommendation of
lisp500's startup banner... it's cute :-)

Christophe
-- 
http://www-jcsu.jesus.cam.ac.uk/~csr21/       +44 1223 510 299/+44 7729 383 757
(set-pprint-dispatch 'number (lambda (s o) (declare (special b)) (format s b)))
(defvar b "~&Just another Lisp hacker~%")    (pprint #36rJesusCollegeCambridge)
From: Joe Marshall
Subject: Re: GNU CLISP 2.33.1 (2004-05-22) bug fix release
Date: 
Message-ID: <65ageliv.fsf@ccs.neu.edu>
Paul Dietz <············@motorola.com> writes:

> David Steuber wrote:
>
>>  Anyway, a more pertinent question would be, "why did anyone
>> bother to follow up ace's article?"
>
> Wasn't it a perfect candidate for Godwin's law?

David To.. oh, never mind.
From: Alex Mizrahi
Subject: Re: GNU CLISP 2.33.1 (2004-05-22) bug fix release
Date: 
Message-ID: <2hn0muFeksaoU1@uni-berlin.de>
(message (Hello 'Michael)
(you :wrote  :on '(Thu, 27 May 2004 18:12:23 +0300))
(

 ML> um.  what's _political_ about the menorah symbol, and why are you
 ML> annoyed by it?

by the way, it annoys me too. i think i'll be annoyed by any not-so-abstract
symbol of that kind - cross, pentagram, ankh or some kind of logo- more or
less. i think that software is not a place for such.

)
(With-best-regards '(Alex Mizrahi) :aka 'killer_storm)
(prin1 "Jane dates only Lisp programmers"))
From: Michael Livshin
Subject: Re: GNU CLISP 2.33.1 (2004-05-22) bug fix release
Date: 
Message-ID: <s3wu2xfth9.fsf@boss.verisity.com.cmm>
"Alex Mizrahi" <········@hotmail.com> writes:

> by the way, it annoys me too. i think i'll be annoyed by any
> not-so-abstract symbol of that kind - cross, pentagram, ankh or some
> kind of logo- more or less. i think that software is not a place for
> such.

well, this thread should have died long ago, but I sorta cannot help
asking you the same question I asked the resident troll: what exactly
annoys you about symbols?  the fact that they may annoy other people,
thus leading to flamefests?  I can understand such feelings, but I
don't think removing any symbols for the sake of political correctness
is a good idea.  if you think that politics have no place in software,
you should begin with *yourself*, not other people.

-- 
Being really good at C++ is like being  really good at using rocks to
sharpen sticks.
                -- Thant Tessman
From: Alex Mizrahi
Subject: Re: GNU CLISP 2.33.1 (2004-05-22) bug fix release
Date: 
Message-ID: <2hq04eFg9s5vU1@uni-berlin.de>
(message (Hello 'Michael)
(you :wrote  :on '(Fri, 28 May 2004 00:30:42 +0300))
(

 >> by the way, it annoys me too. i think i'll be annoyed by any
 >> not-so-abstract symbol of that kind - cross, pentagram, ankh or some
 >> kind of logo- more or less. i think that software is not a place for
 >> such.

 ML> well, this thread should have died long ago, but I sorta cannot help
 ML> asking you the same question I asked the resident troll: what
 ML> exactly annoys you about symbols?  the fact that they may annoy
 ML> other people, thus leading to flamefests?

no, they just annoy me.. it's some internal feeling - i cannot cleanly
express reasons..

 ML>   I can understand such feelings, but I don't think removing any
 ML> symbols for the sake of political correctness is a good idea.  if you
 ML> think that politics have no place in software,

i do no think anything - it's just feedback, my personal opinion..

 ML> you should begin with
 ML> *yourself*, not other people.

)
(With-best-regards '(Alex Mizrahi) :aka 'killer_storm)
(prin1 "Jane dates only Lisp programmers"))
From: Tayssir John Gabbour
Subject: Re: GNU CLISP 2.33.1 (2004-05-22) bug fix release
Date: 
Message-ID: <866764be.0405280006.73361bc2@posting.google.com>
"Alex Mizrahi" <········@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<··············@uni-berlin.de>...
> by the way, it annoys me too. i think i'll be annoyed by any not-so-abstract
> symbol of that kind - cross, pentagram, ankh or some kind of logo- more or
> less. i think that software is not a place for such.

I haveta admit -- I'm for that FreeBSD logo, so I'd feel hypocritical
if I didn't accept clisp's.
From: Reini Urban
Subject: Re: GNU CLISP 2.33.1 (2004-05-22) bug fix release
Date: 
Message-ID: <40bcefbc$1@e-post.inode.at>
ace schrieb:
> David Sletten wrote:
> [Unbelievable knee-jerk reaction snipped]
> 
> What's the difference? Both symbols were/are heavily used by 
> national-socialist regimes.
> 
> If one obviously out-of-place symbol is OK for this project, why not the 
> other?

The reversed swastika is a forbidden symbol in austria (at least).
The menorah not.

http://normative.zusammenhaenge.at/materialien/verbotsg.html
VerbotsG Art I � 3d, EGVG Art IX � 4
=> 5 - 10 years
-- 
Reini Urban
http://xarch.tu-graz.ac.at/home/rurban/
From: Frederic Brunel
Subject: Re: GNU CLISP 2.33.1 (2004-05-22) bug fix release
Date: 
Message-ID: <lasmdmowho.fsf@buzz.in-fusio.com>
ace <··@spam.aol> writes:

> That's great news! When can you get around to offering this
> alternative to the menorah banner? (personally, I'd rather not see any
> religious material in open source software, but since we have to...)

  Congratulation smarty boy! Proud of yourself? 

  Now all news server of the planet gets your idiot drawing associated
  with the real author names! Did you think about that?

  Please, do cancel your article!

-- 
Frederic Brunel     T: +33 557 773 000
Software Architect  www.in-fusio.com
From: Stefan Scholl
Subject: Re: GNU CLISP 2.33.1 (2004-05-22) bug fix release
Date: 
Message-ID: <1ko5wv54jmnjf.dlg@parsec.no-spoon.de>
On 2004-05-27 15:00:51, Frederic Brunel wrote:
> ace <··@spam.aol> writes:
>> That's great news! When can you get around to offering this
>> alternative to the menorah banner? (personally, I'd rather not see any
>> religious material in open source software, but since we have to...)
> 
>   Congratulation smarty boy! Proud of yourself? 
> 
>   Now all news server of the planet gets your idiot drawing associated
>   with the real author names! Did you think about that?

I always associate this symbol with Jackie Kennedy. :-)

(<http://www.sabon.org/swastika/>, search for "In Amerika")
From: Stefan Scholl
Subject: Re: GNU CLISP 2.33.1 (2004-05-22) bug fix release
Date: 
Message-ID: <oy9m0rbjbmhf.dlg@parsec.no-spoon.de>
On 2004-05-27 02:54:14, ace wrote:

> That's great news! When can you get around to offering this alternative 
> to the menorah banner?

Well, it's GPLed. You have the source. Make a fork.
From: Gareth McCaughan
Subject: Re: GNU CLISP 2.33.1 (2004-05-22) bug fix release
Date: 
Message-ID: <874qq1pgso.fsf@g.mccaughan.ntlworld.com>
Stefan Scholl <······@no-spoon.de> writes:

> On 2004-05-27 02:54:14, ace wrote:
> 
> > That's great news! When can you get around to offering this alternative 
> > to the menorah banner?
> 
> Well, it's GPLed. You have the source. Make a fork.

You could even make a fork out of the menorah, as Kaz Kylheku
did in article <····························@posting.google.com> .

-- 
Gareth McCaughan
.sig under construc
From: Andreas Thiele
Subject: Re: GNU CLISP 2.33.1 (2004-05-22) bug fix release
Date: 
Message-ID: <c9ipbi$r9s$07$1@news.t-online.com>
what else can cause banning?
From: Mark McConnell
Subject: Re: GNU CLISP 2.33.1 (2004-05-22) bug fix release
Date: 
Message-ID: <d3aed052.0405270635.3e7f358a@posting.google.com>
Sam Steingold <···@gnu.org> wrote in message news:<·············@gnu.org>...
> Common Lisp is a high-level, general-purpose programming language.
> GNU CLISP is a Common Lisp implementation by Bruno Haible of Karlsruhe
> University and Michael Stoll of Munich University, both in Germany.

CLISP is free, easy to install, and gets you going quickly programming
in Common Lisp.  It's "one of the good things in life", and I thank
the authors for making it available to us.
From: Fred Gilham
Subject: Re: GNU CLISP 2.33.1 (2004-05-22) bug fix release
Date: 
Message-ID: <u78yfdvobs.fsf@snapdragon.csl.sri.com>
···············@yahoo.com (Mark McConnell) writes:

> Sam Steingold <···@gnu.org> wrote in message news:<·············@gnu.org>...
> > Common Lisp is a high-level, general-purpose programming language.
> > GNU CLISP is a Common Lisp implementation by Bruno Haible of Karlsruhe
> > University and Michael Stoll of Munich University, both in Germany.
> 
> CLISP is free, easy to install, and gets you going quickly programming
> in Common Lisp.  It's "one of the good things in life", and I thank
> the authors for making it available to us.

Indeed.  And the authors and contributors to CLISP have made many
other contributions to the Lisp community over the years.

-- 
Fred Gilham                                        ······@csl.sri.com
Perhaps the greatest damage the American system of education has done
to its children is to teach them that their opinions are relevant
simply because they are their opinions.
From: Peter Lewerin
Subject: Re: GNU CLISP 2.33.1 (2004-05-22) bug fix release
Date: 
Message-ID: <b72f3640.0405300202.6484afe6@posting.google.com>
> > CLISP is free, easy to install, and gets you going quickly programming
> > in Common Lisp.  It's "one of the good things in life", and I thank
> > the authors for making it available to us.
> 
> Indeed.  And the authors and contributors to CLISP have made many
> other contributions to the Lisp community over the years.

Indeed again.  Also on the Menorah: a friend of mine who is a Lutheran
minister is fond of quoting from the Talmud; the best parts of that
book is a good display of the wit, humility, insight, and shrewdness
that impregnates Jewish philosophy, and which is a good inspiration
for anyone's thinking.  The Menorah as a symbol of those qualities is
also an honorable, and hopefully apt, symbol for Lisp.

That said, it is certainly true that a relatively small, partly Jewish
group of people, substituting arrogance, pride, fanaticism, and
brutality for the traits I listed above are currently busy
transforming the Menorah to a symbol for racism and oppression.

It is not clear how one should react to this.  One could hang on to
the Menorah and defend its original connotations, or one could
recognize that it is going the way of the Swastika, transformed from
good to evil by a brutish minority, and replace it by other symbols.

What I think is impossible is to claim that the issue is irrelevant. 
Somehow I don't think people like Michael Livshin or David Sletten
would refrain from criticising a CL developer using the Swastika...
From: Hrvoje Blazevic
Subject: Re: GNU CLISP 2.33.1 (2004-05-22) bug fix release
Date: 
Message-ID: <c9cdpf$nnm$1@ls219.htnet.hr>
Peter Lewerin wrote:
 > That said, it is certainly true that a relatively small, partly Jewish
 > group of people, substituting arrogance, pride, fanaticism, and
 > brutality for the traits I listed above are currently busy
 > transforming the Menorah to a symbol for racism and oppression.
 >

Finally, a post that has touched on the real issue in ace's post. At 
least I hope that *this* was the real issue.

 > It is not clear how one should react to this.  One could hang on to
 > the Menorah and defend its original connotations, or one could
 > recognize that it is going the way of the Swastika, transformed from
 > good to evil by a brutish minority, and replace it by other symbols.
 >
 > What I think is impossible is to claim that the issue is irrelevant.
 > Somehow I don't think people like Michael Livshin or David Sletten
 > would refrain from criticising a CL developer using the Swastika...

It is obviously *not* irrelevant, judging from the two types of comments 
that the original post provoked. To anybody that does not feel 
personally threatened by the issue  menorah/swastika it should be 
obvious that the slandering/spitting comments came from the two names 
mentioned above -- as compared to calm comments provided by, say, 
Cameron McKinnon.

-- Hrvoje
From: Michael Livshin
Subject: Re: GNU CLISP 2.33.1 (2004-05-22) bug fix release
Date: 
Message-ID: <s3aczqf9o1.fsf@boss.verisity.com.cmm>
·············@swipnet.se (Peter Lewerin) writes:

> That said, it is certainly true that a relatively small, partly
> Jewish group of people, substituting arrogance, pride, fanaticism,
> and brutality for the traits I listed above are currently busy
> transforming the Menorah to a symbol for racism and oppression.

"That said, it is certainly true that a relatively small, partly
Lisp-using group of people, substituting arrogance, pride, fanaticism,
and shamelessness for the traits I listed above are currently busy
transforming the Lambda symbol to a symbol of the gay rights
movement".

> What I think is impossible is to claim that the issue is irrelevant.

really?  how is it relevant?

> Somehow I don't think people like Michael Livshin or David Sletten
> would refrain from criticising a CL developer using the Swastika...

I'm not sure what I would think about said hypothetical developer
(depends, I guess), but I would *most certainly* refrain from trolling
about this on c.l.l, because the issue is, indeed, completely
irrelevant.

cheers,
--m

-- 
Virtue is the instinctive weapon of the vaguely angry.   -- Fred Reed