I don't know what to say, so I am just posting this link:
http://www.cs.uu.nl/groups/ST/Visser/ConcreteSyntaxForObjects
Pascal
--
1st European Lisp and Scheme Workshop
June 13 - Oslo, Norway - co-located with ECOOP 2004
http://www.cs.uni-bonn.de/~costanza/lisp-ecoop/
Pascal Costanza <········@web.de> writes:
> I don't know what to say, so I am just posting this link:
> http://www.cs.uu.nl/groups/ST/Visser/ConcreteSyntaxForObjects
Cool! I just read the Abstract. From what I've read with PAIP having
a Prolog in Lisp example (I think On Lisp also has one), does this
mean that macros are catching on?
Although why not just say, "use Common Lisp. It already has this
feature built in."?
--
I wouldn't mind the rat race so much if it wasn't for all the damn cats.
David Steuber wrote:
> Pascal Costanza <········@web.de> writes:
>
>> I don't know what to say, so I am just posting this link:
>> http://www.cs.uu.nl/groups/ST/Visser/ConcreteSyntaxForObjects
>
> Cool! I just read the Abstract. From what I've read with PAIP having
> a Prolog in Lisp example (I think On Lisp also has one), does this
> mean that macros are catching on?
>
> Although why not just say, "use Common Lisp. It already has this
> feature built in."?
>
Greenspun's tenth may be working to specs, but what I'm afraid of is that
we'll eventually have a situation where people can say "There's no point
in using Lisp; it doesn't have anything we don't" - except elegance and
ease of programming.
Svein Ove Aas wrote:
> David Steuber wrote:
>
>
>>Pascal Costanza <········@web.de> writes:
>>
>>
>>>I don't know what to say, so I am just posting this link:
>>>http://www.cs.uu.nl/groups/ST/Visser/ConcreteSyntaxForObjects
>>
>>Cool! I just read the Abstract. From what I've read with PAIP having
>>a Prolog in Lisp example (I think On Lisp also has one), does this
>>mean that macros are catching on?
>>
>>Although why not just say, "use Common Lisp. It already has this
>>feature built in."?
But consider the ego behind the research. Here is this person on the
cutting edge looking to show us the way into a bright new future. The
lights go down, the curtain comes up, the spotlight hits the speaker
(trumpets? do we need trumpets?) and they say, "Lisp."
Can't happen. They'd have to shut down the language research project and
(worse) find new jobs. Never mind the embarrassment. No joke.
> Greenspun's tenth may be working to specs, but what I'm afraid of is that
> we'll eventually have a situation where people can say "There's no point
> in using Lisp; it doesn't have anything we don't" - except elegance and
> ease of programming.
If Java's Groovy project takes off (and methinks it will if it turns out
well), I think my prediction of world domination for Lisp may be
delayed significantly. We'll still see a big growth of Lisp (not hard
given the starting point), but the world will look like this: Java for
well-understood business / corporate / tall-building stuff, Lisp for
new, hard stuff.
This will be ideal. Lisp jobs for all of us, but the Great Unwashed will
not be descending on cll. Those that do get here we should send to Lisp IRC.
:)
kenny
--
Home? http://tilton-technology.com
Cells? http://www.common-lisp.net/project/cells/
Cello? http://www.common-lisp.net/project/cello/
Why Lisp? http://alu.cliki.net/RtL%20Highlight%20Film
Your Project Here! http://alu.cliki.net/Industry%20Application
Kenny Tilton <·······@nyc.rr.com> writes:
[...]
> If Java's Groovy project takes off (and methinks it will if it turns
> out well), I think my prediction of world domination for Lisp may be
> delayed significantly. We'll still see a big growth of Lisp (not hard
> given the starting point), but the world will look like this: Java for
> well-understood business / corporate / tall-building stuff, Lisp for
> new, hard stuff.
I'm feeling angry when I see all waste of energy. All these guys
trying hard to find solutons to already solved problems. I guess we
can only be the witnesses of what's happening in the computing
world.
It's like we're trying to warn everybody but nobody can hear
us. We're behind a very thick glass door, observing these guys
making mistakes.
A sad reality :(
--
Frederic Brunel
Frederic Brunel wrote:
> Kenny Tilton <·······@nyc.rr.com> writes:
> [...]
>
>>If Java's Groovy project takes off (and methinks it will if it turns
>>out well), I think my prediction of world domination for Lisp may be
>>delayed significantly. We'll still see a big growth of Lisp (not hard
>>given the starting point), but the world will look like this: Java for
>>well-understood business / corporate / tall-building stuff, Lisp for
>>new, hard stuff.
>
>
> I'm feeling angry when I see all waste of energy. All these guys
> trying hard to find solutons to already solved problems. I guess we
> can only be the witnesses of what's happening in the computing
> world.
>
> It's like we're trying to warn everybody but nobody can hear
> us. We're behind a very thick glass door, observing these guys
> making mistakes.
>
> A sad reality :(
But I see the same thing with Cells/Cello when talking to Lispniks, and
I concede I do not have a very open mind to anything I did not write
myself. The laser was invented in the fifties, but it was twenty years
before anyone could think of a use for them. The good news is that good
ideas tend to prove out in the long haul, as we are seeing with Lisp.
The important thing is that the Great Unwashed have reached the Stage of
Rejection and correctly identified the solution (dynamism, run-time
typing, code generation). They have not recognized yet that a great
implementation of the solution already exists, but some have, and word
travels fast. When Practical Lisp comes out... game over.
kenny
--
Home? http://tilton-technology.com
Cells? http://www.common-lisp.net/project/cells/
Cello? http://www.common-lisp.net/project/cello/
Why Lisp? http://alu.cliki.net/RtL%20Highlight%20Film
Your Project Here! http://alu.cliki.net/Industry%20Application
Kenny Tilton wrote:
>
>
> Frederic Brunel wrote:
>
>> I'm feeling angry when I see all waste of energy. All these guys
>> trying hard to find solutons to already solved problems. I guess we
>> can only be the witnesses of what's happening in the computing
>> world.
>>
>> It's like we're trying to warn everybody but nobody can hear
>> us. We're behind a very thick glass door, observing these guys
>> making mistakes.
>>
>> A sad reality :(
>
> But I see the same thing with Cells/Cello when talking to Lispniks, and
> I concede I do not have a very open mind to anything I did not write
> myself. The laser was invented in the fifties, but it was twenty years
> before anyone could think of a use for them. The good news is that good
> ideas tend to prove out in the long haul, as we are seeing with Lisp.
>
> The important thing is that the Great Unwashed have reached the Stage of
> Rejection and correctly identified the solution (dynamism, run-time
> typing, code generation). They have not recognized yet that a great
> implementation of the solution already exists, but some have, and word
> travels fast. When Practical Lisp comes out... game over.
>
> kenny
>
I think maybe you're being a bit over-optimistic. Yes, having that book
published will certainly help, but it isn't the end-all of Lisp advocacy.
Interfacing with the OS, and other applications, is still Lisp's great
weakness; not necessarily because the approach it takes is wrong, but
because it doesn't have critical mass yet.
I'm pondering the possibility of an FFI that would let us use C functions
(nearly) as easily as C programmers, without any preparation.
It would be slow and possibly dangerous; that's not the point. It wouldn't
be more dangerous than programming in C in the first place.
Svein Ove Aas wrote:
> Kenny Tilton wrote:
>
>
>>
>>Frederic Brunel wrote:
>>
>>
>>> I'm feeling angry when I see all waste of energy. All these guys
>>> trying hard to find solutons to already solved problems. I guess we
>>> can only be the witnesses of what's happening in the computing
>>> world.
>>>
>>> It's like we're trying to warn everybody but nobody can hear
>>> us. We're behind a very thick glass door, observing these guys
>>> making mistakes.
>>>
>>> A sad reality :(
>>
>>But I see the same thing with Cells/Cello when talking to Lispniks, and
>>I concede I do not have a very open mind to anything I did not write
>>myself. The laser was invented in the fifties, but it was twenty years
>>before anyone could think of a use for them. The good news is that good
>>ideas tend to prove out in the long haul, as we are seeing with Lisp.
>>
>>The important thing is that the Great Unwashed have reached the Stage of
>>Rejection and correctly identified the solution (dynamism, run-time
>>typing, code generation). They have not recognized yet that a great
>>implementation of the solution already exists, but some have, and word
>>travels fast. When Practical Lisp comes out... game over.
>>
>>kenny
>>
>
> I think maybe you're being a bit over-optimistic.
Kenny is like that. :)
Yes, having that book
> published will certainly help, but it isn't the end-all of Lisp advocacy.
That is not what I was thinking. I was picturing the stunned-cow look of
programmers when they look at the shelf and see a /new/ title and the
title is /Practical/ Lisp[1]. This at a time when they are totally
primed for dynamic/agile languages and everyone is on the lookout for
the Next New Thing. It qualifies as that because it is so unorthodox
(the parens), yet in the next moment they discover: mature,
standardized, native-compiled. Their next question will be, Does it do
objects? Then they see CLOS... game over.
>
> Interfacing with the OS, and other applications, is still Lisp's great
> weakness; not necessarily because the approach it takes is wrong, but
> because it doesn't have critical mass yet.
>
> I'm pondering the possibility of an FFI that would let us use C functions
> (nearly) as easily as C programmers, without any preparation.
>
> It would be slow and possibly dangerous; that's not the point. It wouldn't
> be more dangerous than programming in C in the first place.
Think big. Make it a Java FFI.
:)
kenny
[1] I wrote in opposition to the title originally, now I think it is
perfect.
--
Home? http://tilton-technology.com
Cells? http://www.common-lisp.net/project/cells/
Cello? http://www.common-lisp.net/project/cello/
Why Lisp? http://alu.cliki.net/RtL%20Highlight%20Film
Your Project Here! http://alu.cliki.net/Industry%20Application
Kenny Tilton <·······@nyc.rr.com> writes:
> Think big. Make it a Java FFI.
Java calls it JNI.
--
I wouldn't mind the rat race so much if it wasn't for all the damn cats.
Kenny Tilton <·······@nyc.rr.com> writes:
> That is not what I was thinking. I was picturing the stunned-cow look
> of programmers when they look at the shelf and see a /new/ title and
> the title is /Practical/ Lisp[1].
[snip]
> [1] I wrote in opposition to the title originally, now I think it is
> perfect.
Kenny, it's actually titled _Practical Common Lisp_ not _Practical
Lisp_. Since you seem to be my biggest source of PR I guess I should
get you to use the right name so people don't ignore my book waiting
for that *other* book they've heard Kenny talking about so much. ;-)
-Peter
--
Peter Seibel ·····@javamonkey.com
Lisp is the red pill. -- John Fraser, comp.lang.lisp
Peter Seibel wrote:
> Kenny Tilton <·······@nyc.rr.com> writes:
>
>
>>That is not what I was thinking. I was picturing the stunned-cow look
>>of programmers when they look at the shelf and see a /new/ title and
>>the title is /Practical/ Lisp[1].
>
>
> [snip]
>
>
>>[1] I wrote in opposition to the title originally, now I think it is
>>perfect.
>
>
> Kenny, it's actually titled _Practical Common Lisp_ not _Practical
> Lisp_. Since you seem to be my biggest source of PR I guess I should
> get you to use the right name so people don't ignore my book waiting
> for that *other* book they've heard Kenny talking about so much. ;-)
Aw, jeez, first Duane drives up my carpal tunnel count with AllegroCL vs
ACL, now you want your book's middle name in there. If I had been around
when CL came out the other Lisps would have been driven into the sea and
we would not have this problem.
OK, what abbreviation are we going to use once its a bestseller and you
do not need to build mindshare? PCL is taken, unless we think the
context will always be sufficient to distinguish the book from the CLOS
implementation. "Practical CL" violates tilton's law of abbreviations:
"Only names longer than six must be reduced by more than half". Looks
like an implementation, as well. PCLtB ("PCL, the book") would resonate
nicely with the past. Capitalizing the B does not make sense, but PCLtb
looks awful and doesn't get the resonance.
btw, here's my blurb for the back cover:
"The perfect book for anyone interested in Cello or Cells." -- Kenny
kt
--
Home? http://tilton-technology.com
Cells? http://www.common-lisp.net/project/cells/
Cello? http://www.common-lisp.net/project/cello/
Why Lisp? http://alu.cliki.net/RtL%20Highlight%20Film
Your Project Here! http://alu.cliki.net/Industry%20Application
Kenny Tilton <·······@nyc.rr.com> writes:
> Peter Seibel wrote:
>
> > Kenny Tilton <·······@nyc.rr.com> writes:
> >
>
> >>That is not what I was thinking. I was picturing the stunned-cow look
> >>of programmers when they look at the shelf and see a /new/ title and
> >>the title is /Practical/ Lisp[1].
> > [snip]
>
> >
>
> >>[1] I wrote in opposition to the title originally, now I think it is
> >>perfect.
> > Kenny, it's actually titled _Practical Common Lisp_ not _Practical
> > Lisp_. Since you seem to be my biggest source of PR I guess I should
> > get you to use the right name so people don't ignore my book waiting
> > for that *other* book they've heard Kenny talking about so much. ;-)
>
> Aw, jeez, first Duane drives up my carpal tunnel count with AllegroCL
> vs ACL, now you want your book's middle name in there. If I had been
> around when CL came out the other Lisps would have been driven into
> the sea and we would not have this problem.
What!? You mean you don't have Voice-activated data entry yet?
I would have thought your throat was sore, not your fingers...
> OK, what abbreviation are we going to use once its a bestseller and
> you do not need to build mindshare? PCL is taken, unless we think the
> context will always be sufficient to distinguish the book from the
> CLOS implementation. "Practical CL" violates tilton's law of
> abbreviations: "Only names longer than six must be reduced by more
> than half". Looks like an implementation, as well. PCLtB ("PCL, the
> book") would resonate nicely with the past. Capitalizing the B does
> not make sense, but PCLtb looks awful and doesn't get the resonance.
>
>
> btw, here's my blurb for the back cover:
>
> "The perfect book for anyone interested in Cello or Cells." -- Kenny
I don't know - that sure is an awful lot of typing...
Maybe TPBFAIiCoC? How does that roll off the tongue?
--
Duane Rettig ·····@franz.com Franz Inc. http://www.franz.com/
555 12th St., Suite 1450 http://www.555citycenter.com/
Oakland, Ca. 94607 Phone: (510) 452-2000; Fax: (510) 452-0182
Duane Rettig <·····@franz.com> writes:
> Kenny Tilton <·······@nyc.rr.com> writes:
>
> > Aw, jeez, first Duane drives up my carpal tunnel count with AllegroCL
> > vs ACL, now you want your book's middle name in there. If I had been
> > around when CL came out the other Lisps would have been driven into
> > the sea and we would not have this problem.
>
> What!? You mean you don't have Voice-activated data entry yet?
> I would have thought your throat was sore, not your fingers...
I seem to be stuck in the INTERLISP of voice data entry. My Mac does
an okay job, but it's not that usable without DWIM. I was entertained
by my Listen-Eval-Speak loop, until a DWIM error had me slowly "kill -9"ing
my Lisp.
--
/|_ .-----------------------.
,' .\ / | No to Imperialist war |
,--' _,' | Wage class war! |
/ / `-----------------------'
( -. |
| ) |
(`-. '--.)
`. )----'
Duane Rettig <·····@franz.com> writes:
> >
> > "The perfect book for anyone interested in Cello or Cells." -- Kenny
>
> I don't know - that sure is an awful lot of typing...
>
> Maybe TPBFAIiCoC? How does that roll off the tongue?
I think if you are going to do an acronym, you should do the job
right. I haven't worked out the algorithm yet, but it should satisfy
the following two conditions:
* Be utterly impossible to come up with a mnemonic pronunciation.
* Maximise finger travel on a QWERTY keyboard.
The first one is hard to satisfy because there are some creative
people out there. The second is less tricky, but you must account for
the fact that people type with two hands.
--
I wouldn't mind the rat race so much if it wasn't for all the damn cats.
Kenny Tilton <·······@nyc.rr.com> writes:
> OK, what abbreviation are we going to use once its a bestseller and
> you do not need to build mindshare? PCL is taken, unless we think the
> context will always be sufficient to distinguish the book from the
> CLOS implementation.
[...]
> btw, here's my blurb for the back cover:
>
> "The perfect book for anyone interested in Cello or Cells." -- Kenny
I think the easiest way to solve this is to create an abbrev in Emacs
that expands "PCL" to "Practical Common Lisp, the perfect book for
anyone interested in Cello or Cells". That should make everybody
happy.
--
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
·····@gnus.org * Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen
On Sat, 22 May 2004 18:58:22 +0200, Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <·····@gnus.org> wrote:
> I think the easiest way to solve this is to create an abbrev in
> Emacs that expands "PCL" to "Practical Common Lisp, the perfect book
> for anyone interested in Cello or Cells". That should make
> everybody happy.
I'm pretty sure Kenny doesn't use Emacs... :)
Edi.
Edi Weitz wrote:
> On Sat, 22 May 2004 18:58:22 +0200, Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <·····@gnus.org> wrote:
>
>
>>I think the easiest way to solve this is to create an abbrev in
>>Emacs that expands "PCL" to "Practical Common Lisp, the perfect book
>>for anyone interested in Cello or Cells". That should make
>>everybody happy.
>
>
> I'm pretty sure Kenny doesn't use Emacs... :)
Emacs is to Lisp editors as Lisp is fast becoming to other languages. I
use AllegroCL's editor in emacs mode, because I like MCL's Fred, which
resembles Emacs. Not sure if that was intentional, tho.
kenny
--
Home? http://tilton-technology.com
Cells? http://www.common-lisp.net/project/cells/
Cello? http://www.common-lisp.net/project/cello/
Why Lisp? http://alu.cliki.net/RtL%20Highlight%20Film
Your Project Here! http://alu.cliki.net/Industry%20Application
Kenny Tilton wrote:
>
>
> Edi Weitz wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 22 May 2004 18:58:22 +0200, Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen
>> <·····@gnus.org> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> I think the easiest way to solve this is to create an abbrev in
>>> Emacs that expands "PCL" to "Practical Common Lisp, the perfect book
>>> for anyone interested in Cello or Cells". That should make
>>> everybody happy.
>>
>>
>>
>> I'm pretty sure Kenny doesn't use Emacs... :)
>
>
> Emacs is to Lisp editors as Lisp is fast becoming to other languages. I
> use AllegroCL's editor in emacs mode, because I like MCL's Fred, which
> resembles Emacs. Not sure if that was intentional, tho.
Fred
Resembles
Emacs
Deliberately
Edi Weitz <···@agharta.de> writes:
> I'm pretty sure Kenny doesn't use Emacs... :)
No wonder his fingers hurt...
--
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
·····@gnus.org * Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen
Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <·····@gnus.org> writes:
> Edi Weitz <···@agharta.de> writes:
>
>> I'm pretty sure Kenny doesn't use Emacs... :)
>
> No wonder his fingers hurt...
I had to get treatment for a hurting left shoulder, and my physioterapist
was a little puzzled, since I use the mouse right-handed. So I had to
tell her about emacs ;-)
--
(espen)
Kenny Tilton <·······@nyc.rr.com> writes:
> Peter Seibel wrote:
[...]
>> Kenny, it's actually titled _Practical Common Lisp_ not _Practical
>> Lisp_. Since you seem to be my biggest source of PR I guess I should
[...]
> OK, what abbreviation are we going to use once its a bestseller and
> you do not need to build mindshare? PCL is taken, unless we think the
The Rebirth Book.
Paolo
--
Why Lisp? http://alu.cliki.net/RtL%20Highlight%20Film
Recommended Common Lisp libraries/tools (Google for info on each):
- ASDF/ASDF-INSTALL: system building/installation
- CL-PPCRE: regular expressions
- UFFI: Foreign Function Interface
Paolo Amoroso wrote:
> Kenny Tilton <·······@nyc.rr.com> writes:
>
>
>>Peter Seibel wrote:
>
> [...]
>
>>>Kenny, it's actually titled _Practical Common Lisp_ not _Practical
>>>Lisp_. Since you seem to be my biggest source of PR I guess I should
>
> [...]
>
>>OK, what abbreviation are we going to use once its a bestseller and
>>you do not need to build mindshare? PCL is taken, unless we think the
>
>
> The Rebirth Book.
The Phoenix book? They should put a Phoenix on the cover, really piss
off O'Reilly when the millionth copy sells. Then they translate to
Chinese and Hindi--oh, my.
kenny
--
Home? http://tilton-technology.com
Cells? http://www.common-lisp.net/project/cells/
Cello? http://www.common-lisp.net/project/cello/
Why Lisp? http://alu.cliki.net/RtL%20Highlight%20Film
Your Project Here! http://alu.cliki.net/Industry%20Application
Kenny Tilton wrote:
>
>
> Paolo Amoroso wrote:
>
>> Kenny Tilton <·······@nyc.rr.com> writes:
>>
>>
>>>Peter Seibel wrote:
>>
>> [...]
>>
>>>>Kenny, it's actually titled _Practical Common Lisp_ not _Practical
>>>>Lisp_. Since you seem to be my biggest source of PR I guess I should
>>
>> [...]
>>
>>>OK, what abbreviation are we going to use once its a bestseller and
>>>you do not need to build mindshare? PCL is taken, unless we think the
>>
>>
>> The Rebirth Book.
>
> The Phoenix book? They should put a Phoenix on the cover, really piss
> off O'Reilly when the millionth copy sells. Then they translate to
> Chinese and Hindi--oh, my.
>
Sounds good to me!
Let the westerners keep their camels, we'll take Asia.
Kenny Tilton wrote:
>
>
> Paolo Amoroso wrote:
>
>> Kenny Tilton <·······@nyc.rr.com> writes:
>>
>>
>>> Peter Seibel wrote:
>>
>>
>> [...]
>>
>>>> Kenny, it's actually titled _Practical Common Lisp_ not _Practical
>>>> Lisp_. Since you seem to be my biggest source of PR I guess I should
>>
>>
>> [...]
>>
>>> OK, what abbreviation are we going to use once its a bestseller and
>>> you do not need to build mindshare? PCL is taken, unless we think the
>>
>>
>>
>> The Rebirth Book.
>
>
> The Phoenix book? They should put a Phoenix on the cover, really piss
> off O'Reilly when the millionth copy sells. Then they translate to
> Chinese and Hindi--oh, my.
That's great (:
Cheers,
Michael
Kenny Tilton <·······@nyc.rr.com> writes:
> delayed significantly. We'll still see a big growth of Lisp (not hard
> given the starting point), but the world will look like this: Java for
> well-understood business / corporate / tall-building stuff, Lisp for
> new, hard stuff.
well, given that those that try to do AI research are or should be working
on still new and still hard stuff, it's somewhat depressing to note that
they appear to be lost in the java/xml hype forest (see my post on dfki
earlier today).
--
(espen)
Espen Vestre wrote:
> Kenny Tilton <·······@nyc.rr.com> writes:
>
>
>>delayed significantly. We'll still see a big growth of Lisp (not hard
>>given the starting point), but the world will look like this: Java for
>>well-understood business / corporate / tall-building stuff, Lisp for
>>new, hard stuff.
>
>
> well, given that those that try to do AI research are or should be working
> on still new and still hard stuff, it's somewhat depressing to note that
> they appear to be lost in the java/xml hype forest (see my post on dfki
> earlier today).
Absolutely. I ran across this bizarritude last year playing with
RoboCup, which still communicates with sexprs (tho a few argued for
<sigh> a switch to XML), the original server being in Lisp, but is
programmed now (server and teams) in C/C++/Java.
But once Lisp gets re-discovered I think it will easily reclaim the AI
ground.
kenny
--
Home? http://tilton-technology.com
Cells? http://www.common-lisp.net/project/cells/
Cello? http://www.common-lisp.net/project/cello/
Why Lisp? http://alu.cliki.net/RtL%20Highlight%20Film
Your Project Here! http://alu.cliki.net/Industry%20Application
Kenny Tilton <·······@nyc.rr.com> writes:
> But once Lisp gets re-discovered I think it will easily reclaim the AI
> ground.
I hope you're right. I'm a little afraid that there may be to many
PHB's with "Is Customer Using The Right Technology?"-checklists
sitting on the money bags right now (I have the impression that
universities, research institutions and their funders are copying only
the bad habits from private enterprise in their desperate quest for
market-orientedness).
(Oh well, I'm here alone on a work day squeezed in between a holiday
and a saturday, and may be in a too cynical mood today.... but now I
just noticed that my lisp server is chewing away happily on nasdaq
stock quotes in the opening minutes at a load of only 0.25, seems
like wednesdays' optimizations did their work :-) :-))
--
(espen)
Kenny Tilton <·······@nyc.rr.com> writes:
> If Java's Groovy project takes off (and methinks it will if it turns
> out well), I think my prediction of world domination for Lisp may be
> delayed significantly. We'll still see a big growth of Lisp (not hard
> given the starting point), but the world will look like this: Java for
> well-understood business / corporate / tall-building stuff, Lisp for
> new, hard stuff.
My deal is that I am not really interested in AI. My interest in Lisp
has nothing to do with AI. I've always programmed more mundane
things, although I did attempt to write a good Go player way back
when.
I would love to see Lisp make inroads into the well-understood
business / coporate / tall-building stuff. If Lisp is good for new,
hard stuff (like AI, CAD, whatever), then it must also be good for the
far less hard stuff.
C has been called a General Purpose Programming Language. K&R is the
classic book on that language. You can find it called that there. C
gets a lot of coverage in terms of doing low level driver development
to fancy GUI driven applications. Yet the original purpose of C was
to have a "high level" portable assembly language. That is why C is
so close to the metal.
C++ is of course more of the same. But it does add the ability to do
abstractions. Or rather, it makes you think in terms of abstractions
in a way that C does not. You can be abstract in machine code if you
want.
Along came Java with its promises of write once, run everywhere. It
can actually do that for some subset of Java programs. But the
general case has proven a bit different. I don't have any serious
beefs with Java. I think the reasons for its success in the market
place may have more to do with its C++ like syntax than anything else
though. It looks like C++ lite with a garbage collector. Java even
has broad application in that it can be used for embedded devices as
well as server apps.
C, C++, and Java are all languages that I have had strong positive
feelings for. I still like C with some of the C++ features back
ported. I expect that will fade in time. Lisp attracted my attention
for one reason. Code and Data look the same. Yes, this is why macros
work so well in Lisp and not in any other language. But once upon a
time I had in mind an idea for an application where I wanted a simple
to implement embedded scripting language and a file format that could
not only be easily parsed by the scripting language, but could also
reference procedures in the scripting language. Lisp entered my radar
at that point. What I thought was really cool was that I could also
program the appplication in Lisp. A triangle formed where Lisp was
the implementation language, scripting language, and data file format.
I never realized that application, but Lisp still stands out as the
one tool that can do that.
> This will be ideal. Lisp jobs for all of us, but the Great Unwashed
> will not be descending on cll. Those that do get here we should send
> to Lisp IRC.
I don't think you have to worry about the Great Unwashed. For most
people, if they can't load it up in their web browser (usually IE), it
doesn't exist on the Internet.
Also this week I got onto #lisp for the first time ever. Brian
Mastenbrook recommended a rather nice IRC client to me for the Mac.
#lisp is actually a nice resource. I was able to get some realtime
support writing some code for SBCL.
I would really love to get a Lisp programming job in my area. I don't
care about the domain (bioinformatics, web, whatever). I don't need
much pay. If I can cover my living expenses and have a Lisp mentor on
hand, I'm ready to sign on. Hell, I should be an employer's dream
candidate. I'll take entry level pay. I just want to code in Lisp.
"I make almost as much as the boss's secretary. OK, half."
--
I wouldn't mind the rat race so much if it wasn't for all the damn cats.
David Steuber <·····@david-steuber.com> writes:
> I would love to see Lisp make inroads into the well-understood
> business / coporate / tall-building stuff. If Lisp is good for new,
See the "Finance" section of:
http://alu.cliki.net/Industry%20Application
Paolo
--
Why Lisp? http://alu.cliki.net/RtL%20Highlight%20Film
Recommended Common Lisp libraries/tools (Google for info on each):
- ASDF/ASDF-INSTALL: system building/installation
- CL-PPCRE: regular expressions
- UFFI: Foreign Function Interface
Pascal Costanza <········@web.de> wrote in message news:<············@newsreader2.netcologne.de>...
> I don't know what to say, so I am just posting this link:
> http://www.cs.uu.nl/groups/ST/Visser/ConcreteSyntaxForObjects
I do not understand this. This is for embedding (say) a Java-like
language into Java. But presumably this will go through a preprocessor
en route to the Java compiler, right? Like every other syntactic
extender in existence?
Their lead-in to make metaborg ontopic for an OOP conference
(programmers want to define infix binary operators!) reminds me of
those compsci books which accumulate chapters on infix syntax and
precedence. "Well, things in BOLD suddenly have the lowest precedence
of all. And for 'bunches':
A'B means A intersection B
A,B means A union B."
Very often good texts fall prey to this backward compatibility plague.