I've made some changes to my Lisp on OS X page:
http://www.david-steuber.com/~david/Lisp/OSX/
Most of the changes are minor with one fairly notable exception. I
have expanded on SBCL for OS X. I did this mainly because I decided
to try it out with SLIME on my Carbon Emacs build. It does work,
although I haven't applied any stress to it yet (like kicking into the
debugger).
I don't know how beginner friendly my instructions are. I would
certainly welcome any comments.
I have an sbclrc file that causes ASDF and ASDF-INSTALL to be loaded
into SBCL when it starts up. I did not mention this on the page. I'm
not sure if I should or not.
--
I wouldn't mind the rat race so much if it wasn't for all the damn cats.
David Steuber wrote:
> I've made some changes to my Lisp on OS X page:
>
> http://www.david-steuber.com/~david/Lisp/OSX/
>
This looks great, one or two "left as an exercise"s notwithstanding. I
am about to try a port of Cello to OS X and was not looking forward to
sorting all that out. I may end up using Lispworks or MCL, but now I
have the option of using SBCL or OpenMCL. Thx.
kenny
--
Home? http://tilton-technology.com
Cells? http://www.common-lisp.net/project/cells/
Cello? http://www.common-lisp.net/project/cello/
Why Lisp? http://alu.cliki.net/RtL%20Highlight%20Film
Your Project Here! http://alu.cliki.net/Industry%20Application
Kenny Tilton <·······@nyc.rr.com> writes:
> David Steuber wrote:
> > I've made some changes to my Lisp on OS X page:
> > http://www.david-steuber.com/~david/Lisp/OSX/
> >
>
> This looks great, one or two "left as an exercise"s notwithstanding. I
> am about to try a port of Cello to OS X and was not looking forward to
> sorting all that out. I may end up using Lispworks or MCL, but now I
> have the option of using SBCL or OpenMCL. Thx.
NP.
It's always difficult to figure out how much detail is enough and how
much is too much. Using CVS is an extra variable vs say LIAB.
BTW, I evaled (asdf-install:install :cl-ppcre) in the slime repl and
it did work. The only annoyance was that the slime debugger added
some options ahead of the 'skip pgp check' option. That caught me off
guard and I had to cogitate for a few seconds. Prior to this, I've
always run ASDF-INSTALL from the raw SBCL prompt.
OpenMCL has a Cocoa bridge, so you could actually do native Aqua
apps. I think the way you have been tying into OpenGL will work
though. I seem to recall seeing a BSD style set of symlinks to the
framework (as in an Apple framework which is a type of bundle which is
a fancy directory).
I have Cocoa on my back burner. My brain is not big enough to
learn that alongside Lisp. I think it may be larger than Lisp in
total APIs.
Last I checked (a day or so ago), Darwin Ports did not yet have the
latest release of OpenMCL that just came out. This makes me kind of
sad as the SLIME folks have been dealing with some changes in the
debug traces.
SLIME is most definitely best used from CVS for now.
--
I wouldn't mind the rat race so much if it wasn't for all the damn cats.
mikel <·····@evins.net> writes:
> David Steuber wrote:
>
> > OpenMCL has a Cocoa bridge, so you could actually do native Aqua
> > apps.
>
> You can also do Carbon, CoreFoundation, or OpenGL programming from
> OpenMCL. For example, a simple program to run an Aqua application
> (that doesn't do anything except display a Dock icon and empty
> application menu) is:
[view parent for code]
Your post has made me realize that my Lisp on OS X page was
deficient. I've tried to rectify this by including an OpenMCL section
with a link to the OpenMCL home page. I've also linked to the Apple
Human Interface Guidelines and even quoted your message on the page.
I hope you don't mind. I attributed the quote to you by your posting
name and message id.
Thanks.
--
I wouldn't mind the rat race so much if it wasn't for all the damn cats.
David Steuber wrote:
> mikel <·····@evins.net> writes:
>
>
>>David Steuber wrote:
>>
>>
>>>OpenMCL has a Cocoa bridge, so you could actually do native Aqua
>>>apps.
>>
>>You can also do Carbon, CoreFoundation, or OpenGL programming from
>>OpenMCL. For example, a simple program to run an Aqua application
>>(that doesn't do anything except display a Dock icon and empty
>>application menu) is:
>
>
> [view parent for code]
>
> Your post has made me realize that my Lisp on OS X page was
> deficient. I've tried to rectify this by including an OpenMCL section
> with a link to the OpenMCL home page. I've also linked to the Apple
> Human Interface Guidelines and even quoted your message on the page.
> I hope you don't mind. I attributed the quote to you by your posting
> name and message id.
No problem.
> Thanks.
Sure.
David Steuber wrote:
> mikel <·····@evins.net> writes:
>
>
>>David Steuber wrote:
>>
>>
>>>OpenMCL has a Cocoa bridge, so you could actually do native Aqua
>>>apps.
>>
>>You can also do Carbon, CoreFoundation, or OpenGL programming from
>>OpenMCL. For example, a simple program to run an Aqua application
>>(that doesn't do anything except display a Dock icon and empty
>>application menu) is:
>
>
> [view parent for code]
>
> Your post has made me realize that my Lisp on OS X page was
> deficient. I've tried to rectify this by including an OpenMCL section
> with a link to the OpenMCL home page. I've also linked to the Apple
> Human Interface Guidelines and even quoted your message on the page.
> I hope you don't mind. I attributed the quote to you by your posting
> name and message id.
>
> Thanks.
>
I guess I should also tell you that my full name is mikel evins, that I
have a website at http://evins.net, and that I support several
open-source projects based on OpenMCL, including Bosco (a simple
template for Aqua applications, currently undergoing a major overhaul),
Alpaca (an extensible text editor for authors, available from
http://www.common-lisp.net/project/alpaca/), and Clotho (an IDE for
OpenMCL, available from http://www.common-lisp.net/project/clotho/).
mikel <·····@evins.net> writes:
> I guess I should also tell you that my full name is mikel evins, that
> I have a website at http://evins.net, and that I support several
> open-source projects based on OpenMCL, including Bosco (a simple
> template for Aqua applications, currently undergoing a major
> overhaul), Alpaca (an extensible text editor for authors, available
> from http://www.common-lisp.net/project/alpaca/), and Clotho (an IDE
> for OpenMCL, available from
> http://www.common-lisp.net/project/clotho/).
Ah. Ok. I just made your name on my page a hyperlink to
http://evins.net/weblog. It looks like anyone interested in using
OpenMCL for real OS X programming would be interested in that page.
I haven't capitalized your name because that is not the way it appears
on your weblog. I can change that if you want.
--
I wouldn't mind the rat race so much if it wasn't for all the damn cats.
David Steuber wrote:
> mikel <·····@evins.net> writes:
>
>
>>I guess I should also tell you that my full name is mikel evins, that
>>I have a website at http://evins.net, and that I support several
>>open-source projects based on OpenMCL, including Bosco (a simple
>>template for Aqua applications, currently undergoing a major
>>overhaul), Alpaca (an extensible text editor for authors, available
>>from http://www.common-lisp.net/project/alpaca/), and Clotho (an IDE
>>for OpenMCL, available from
>>http://www.common-lisp.net/project/clotho/).
>
>
> Ah. Ok. I just made your name on my page a hyperlink to
> http://evins.net/weblog. It looks like anyone interested in using
> OpenMCL for real OS X programming would be interested in that page.
Maybe, but if people start looking there for that purpose then I should
probably make some of the OpenMCL-related stuff a little easier to find.
> I haven't capitalized your name because that is not the way it appears
> on your weblog. I can change that if you want.
I don't really care either way. I write it all-lower-case because it
looks better to me that way.
mikel <·····@evins.net> writes:
> David Steuber wrote:
>
> > mikel <·····@evins.net> writes:
> >
> >>I guess I should also tell you that my full name is mikel evins, that
> >>I have a website at http://evins.net, and that I support several
> >>open-source projects based on OpenMCL, including Bosco (a simple
> >>template for Aqua applications, currently undergoing a major
> >>overhaul), Alpaca (an extensible text editor for authors, available
> >>from http://www.common-lisp.net/project/alpaca/), and Clotho (an IDE
> >>for OpenMCL, available from
> >>http://www.common-lisp.net/project/clotho/).
> > Ah. Ok. I just made your name on my page a hyperlink to
> > http://evins.net/weblog. It looks like anyone interested in using
> > OpenMCL for real OS X programming would be interested in that page.
>
> Maybe, but if people start looking there for that purpose then I
> should probably make some of the OpenMCL-related stuff a little easier
> to find.
It's your call. That seemed to be the logical place to link to as I
was attributing some text on my page to you.
I do have a link to Cliki, but that is mainly because of SLIME. I've
only really linked to things I have actually been using as I am not
one to endorse products I have not used or tried myself.
Over time, I may add more links to the page though, including Alpaca
and Clotho. I don't know. As it is, I do not have any kind of last
updated text on the page just incase it ever gets stale ;-) Nothing
screams "use this" like a page that is months or years out of date
according to its own last updated time stamp.
My page is no match for a LIAB for OS X. I should probably have a
link to that when it is deemed by someone to be ready for trial runs.
I haven't looked at LIAB. Does it unzip into a Lisp.app or a Lisp.dmg
that has Lisp.app in it?
Anyway, I would probably put a link to LIAB at the top of the page as
the easiest way to go even if I haven't used it. I don't think there
is any rule that actually says I have to have used something to
endorse it.
--
I wouldn't mind the rat race so much if it wasn't for all the damn cats.
David Steuber wrote:
> mikel <·····@evins.net> writes:
>
>
>>David Steuber wrote:
>>
>>
>>>mikel <·····@evins.net> writes:
>>>
>>>
>>>>I guess I should also tell you that my full name is mikel evins, that
>>>>I have a website at http://evins.net, and that I support several
>>>>open-source projects based on OpenMCL, including Bosco (a simple
>>>>template for Aqua applications, currently undergoing a major
>>>>overhaul), Alpaca (an extensible text editor for authors, available
>>>
>>>>from http://www.common-lisp.net/project/alpaca/), and Clotho (an IDE
>>>
>>>>for OpenMCL, available from
>>>>http://www.common-lisp.net/project/clotho/).
>>>
>>>Ah. Ok. I just made your name on my page a hyperlink to
>>>http://evins.net/weblog. It looks like anyone interested in using
>>>OpenMCL for real OS X programming would be interested in that page.
>>
>>Maybe, but if people start looking there for that purpose then I
>>should probably make some of the OpenMCL-related stuff a little easier
>>to find.
>
>
> It's your call. That seemed to be the logical place to link to as I
> was attributing some text on my page to you.
>
> I do have a link to Cliki, but that is mainly because of SLIME. I've
> only really linked to things I have actually been using as I am not
> one to endorse products I have not used or tried myself.
>
> Over time, I may add more links to the page though, including Alpaca
> and Clotho. I don't know. As it is, I do not have any kind of last
> updated text on the page just incase it ever gets stale ;-) Nothing
> screams "use this" like a page that is months or years out of date
> according to its own last updated time stamp.
>
> My page is no match for a LIAB for OS X. I should probably have a
> link to that when it is deemed by someone to be ready for trial runs.
> I haven't looked at LIAB. Does it unzip into a Lisp.app or a Lisp.dmg
> that has Lisp.app in it?
>
> Anyway, I would probably put a link to LIAB at the top of the page as
> the easiest way to go even if I haven't used it. I don't think there
> is any rule that actually says I have to have used something to
> endorse it.
It's under development. I don't mind if you link to or download the 0.1
version, but you should probably warn people that it's still far from
fully baked.
Kenny Tilton <·······@nyc.rr.com> writes:
> David Steuber wrote:
> > I've made some changes to my Lisp on OS X page:
> >
> > http://www.david-steuber.com/~david/Lisp/OSX/
> >
>
> This looks great, one or two "left as an exercise"s notwithstanding. I
> am about to try a port of Cello to OS X and was not looking forward to
> sorting all that out. I may end up using Lispworks or MCL, but now I
> have the option of using SBCL or OpenMCL. Thx.
Somebody should do a Lisp in a box thing for OS X ... (checks wallet)
... looks like I'm somebody. Uhm, assuming I didn't miss the
announcement of someone else doing it, I could put together an
SBCL.app that runs Emacs and SLIME. However, I don't have the space
to spare to host such a beast.
--
/|_ .-----------------------.
,' .\ / | No to Imperialist war |
,--' _,' | Wage class war! |
/ / `-----------------------'
( -. |
| ) |
(`-. '--.)
`. )----'
Thomas F. Burdick wrote:
> Kenny Tilton <·······@nyc.rr.com> writes:
>
>
>>David Steuber wrote:
>>
>>>I've made some changes to my Lisp on OS X page:
>>>
>>> http://www.david-steuber.com/~david/Lisp/OSX/
>>>
>>
>>This looks great, one or two "left as an exercise"s notwithstanding. I
>>am about to try a port of Cello to OS X and was not looking forward to
>>sorting all that out. I may end up using Lispworks or MCL, but now I
>>have the option of using SBCL or OpenMCL. Thx.
>
>
> Somebody should do a Lisp in a box thing for OS X ... (checks wallet)
> ... looks like I'm somebody. Uhm, assuming I didn't miss the
> announcement of someone else doing it,
You did:
http://evins.net/downloads/liab-osx-0.1.zip
I could put together an
> SBCL.app that runs Emacs and SLIME. However, I don't have the space
> to spare to host such a beast.
>
The one above is an Emacs.app that runs OpenMCL and SLIME, but Peter
Seibel and I are negotiating over the details of making it easy to pick
SBCL or ACL to run instead.
mikel <·····@evins.net> writes:
> Thomas F. Burdick wrote:
>
> > Somebody should do a Lisp in a box thing for OS X ... (checks wallet)
> > ... looks like I'm somebody. Uhm, assuming I didn't miss the
> > announcement of someone else doing it,
>
> You did:
>
> http://evins.net/downloads/liab-osx-0.1.zip
>
> I could put together an
> > SBCL.app that runs Emacs and SLIME. However, I don't have the space
> > to spare to host such a beast.
> >
>
> The one above is an Emacs.app that runs OpenMCL and SLIME, but Peter
> Seibel and I are negotiating over the details of making it easy to pick
> SBCL or ACL to run instead.
Cool, I'm getting it now. I assume you did the obvious thing and put
an OpenMCL installation in the .app? The way I'd support multiple
Lisps would be to have sub-packages that got installed in the .app,
and have an Emacs customization option that would pick between the
installed Lisps. Is that along the lines of what you're thinking?
--
/|_ .-----------------------.
,' .\ / | No to Imperialist war |
,--' _,' | Wage class war! |
/ / `-----------------------'
( -. |
| ) |
(`-. '--.)
`. )----'
Thomas F. Burdick wrote:
> mikel <·····@evins.net> writes:
>
>
>>Thomas F. Burdick wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Somebody should do a Lisp in a box thing for OS X ... (checks wallet)
>>>... looks like I'm somebody. Uhm, assuming I didn't miss the
>>>announcement of someone else doing it,
>>
>>You did:
>>
>>http://evins.net/downloads/liab-osx-0.1.zip
>>
>> I could put together an
>>
>>>SBCL.app that runs Emacs and SLIME. However, I don't have the space
>>>to spare to host such a beast.
>>>
>>
>>The one above is an Emacs.app that runs OpenMCL and SLIME, but Peter
>>Seibel and I are negotiating over the details of making it easy to pick
>>SBCL or ACL to run instead.
>
>
> Cool, I'm getting it now. I assume you did the obvious thing and put
> an OpenMCL installation in the .app?
Yes.
> The way I'd support multiple
> Lisps would be to have sub-packages that got installed in the .app,
> and have an Emacs customization option that would pick between the
> installed Lisps. Is that along the lines of what you're thinking?
Yes. Some lisps are not as cooperative as OpenMCL about being run from
any old directory. CLISP, for example, makes some assumptions about
where it lives in the filesystem.
I did make versions that ran CLISP and SBCL; SBCL was about as easy to
set up as OpenMCL.
mikel <·····@evins.net> writes:
> Thomas F. Burdick wrote:
>
> > mikel <·····@evins.net> writes:
> >
> >>Thomas F. Burdick wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>>Somebody should do a Lisp in a box thing for OS X ... (checks wallet)
> >>>... looks like I'm somebody. Uhm, assuming I didn't miss the
> >>>announcement of someone else doing it,
> >>
> >>You did:
> >>
> >>http://evins.net/downloads/liab-osx-0.1.zip
Holy bifurcating threads, Batman!
Please let me know when you are ready to distribute this to the half a
dozen or so people who visit my web site each year. I'll put a link
to it right up at the top. Well, a link to the page that talks about
it and has a link to it if possible.
I expect there are some people who might be interested in Lisp, but
not grabbing this that and the other from CVS. Especially Mac
people. You know how they can be.
--
I wouldn't mind the rat race so much if it wasn't for all the damn cats.
David Steuber wrote:
> mikel <·····@evins.net> writes:
>
>
>>Thomas F. Burdick wrote:
>>
>>
>>>mikel <·····@evins.net> writes:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Thomas F. Burdick wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Somebody should do a Lisp in a box thing for OS X ... (checks wallet)
>>>>>... looks like I'm somebody. Uhm, assuming I didn't miss the
>>>>>announcement of someone else doing it,
>>>>
>>>>You did:
>>>>
>>>>http://evins.net/downloads/liab-osx-0.1.zip
>
>
> Holy bifurcating threads, Batman!
>
> Please let me know when you are ready to distribute this to the half a
> dozen or so people who visit my web site each year. I'll put a link
> to it right up at the top. Well, a link to the page that talks about
> it and has a link to it if possible.
>
> I expect there are some people who might be interested in Lisp, but
> not grabbing this that and the other from CVS. Especially Mac
> people. You know how they can be.
Go ahead and link it if you like. You should probably surround it with a
suitably menacing warning that it's a 0.1 version and far from fully
baked. It would probably also be sensible to serve the GPL by nestling
it next to links to Emacs and OpenMCL sources.
mikel <·····@evins.net> writes:
> Go ahead and link it if you like. You should probably surround it with
> a suitably menacing warning that it's a 0.1 version and far from fully
> baked. It would probably also be sensible to serve the GPL by nestling
> it next to links to Emacs and OpenMCL sources.
Ok, I put a link to it in the OpenMCL section. I will probably have
to do some edits. I said you were using SLIME because I think I
remember that being mentioned. If you are not, I guess I will have to
change that text. I used your not "fully baked" wording. I was
tempted to go with half baked, but I don't know what your progress is
;-)
I don't have the links for OpenMCL and GNU Emacs right next to LIAB,
but they are near by. I think the GPL should be satisfied. It may be
technically required for you to have the full source in your downloads
directory as that is the technical location of the distribution. I'm
not really clear on that point. Presumably you did some work to get
OpenMCL and anything else bundled in with Emacs.app. That probably
falls under the GPL because of Emacs.
Debian is very conscientious about licensing and you need to use a
seperate command to obtain the source of a deb package from your local
mirror. So I don't really see the difference.
This all reminds me that W3 doesn't work in my Carbon Emacs. Since I
use GNUS to read my mail, that might be helpful. I don't know if W3
is an optional package that I have to get and shove into Emacs.app or
not. I haven't looked yet. I use Safari to browse the CLHS locally
anyway.
--
I wouldn't mind the rat race so much if it wasn't for all the damn cats.
David Steuber wrote:
> mikel <·····@evins.net> writes:
>
>
>>Go ahead and link it if you like. You should probably surround it with
>>a suitably menacing warning that it's a 0.1 version and far from fully
>>baked. It would probably also be sensible to serve the GPL by nestling
>>it next to links to Emacs and OpenMCL sources.
>
>
> Ok, I put a link to it in the OpenMCL section. I will probably have
> to do some edits. I said you were using SLIME because I think I
> remember that being mentioned.
Yes, that's right.
If you are not, I guess I will have to
> change that text. I used your not "fully baked" wording. I was
> tempted to go with half baked, but I don't know what your progress is
> ;-)
At this stage I'm prbably still pre-heating the oven and greasing the
pan. If you actually download and use it, all I can do is slap your hand
and tell you to stop sticking your fingers in the dough.
> I don't have the links for OpenMCL and GNU Emacs right next to LIAB,
> but they are near by. I think the GPL should be satisfied. It may be
> technically required for you to have the full source in your downloads
> directory as that is the technical location of the distribution. I'm
> not really clear on that point. Presumably you did some work to get
> OpenMCL and anything else bundled in with Emacs.app. That probably
> falls under the GPL because of Emacs.
By the time someone cares, I expect to have packaged the source
appropriately.
> Debian is very conscientious about licensing and you need to use a
> seperate command to obtain the source of a deb package from your local
> mirror. So I don't really see the difference.
>
> This all reminds me that W3 doesn't work in my Carbon Emacs. Since I
> use GNUS to read my mail, that might be helpful. I don't know if W3
> is an optional package that I have to get and shove into Emacs.app or
> not. I haven't looked yet. I use Safari to browse the CLHS locally
> anyway.
I think if LIAB includes SLIME, that's the optimal solution (maybe it
should come with the Hyperspec in the Docs folder, and preconfigured to
look there).
mikel <·····@evins.net> writes:
> > Debian is very conscientious about licensing and you need to use a
> > seperate command to obtain the source of a deb package from your local
> > mirror. So I don't really see the difference.
> > This all reminds me that W3 doesn't work in my Carbon Emacs. Since I
> > use GNUS to read my mail, that might be helpful. I don't know if W3
> > is an optional package that I have to get and shove into Emacs.app or
> > not. I haven't looked yet. I use Safari to browse the CLHS locally
> > anyway.
>
> I think if LIAB includes SLIME, that's the optimal solution (maybe it
> should come with the Hyperspec in the Docs folder, and preconfigured
> to look there).
I haven't really looked at the legalize stuff for HyperSpec. I don't
think it is redistributable, but I'm not sure on that point. A
question for Xanalys. I do know that the Debian installer goes to the
Xanalys ftp site to fetch it for local install. For my Mac, I just
copied it over from my Debian box.
I much prefer looking at the CLHS in Safari to W3. But that means
switching apps to view it and then go back to Emacs. W3 does not deal
well with the image links. At least, I've had trouble. (on Debian)
I really do prefer a local copy of the CLHS though. On a laptop,
Internet is not a given.
--
I wouldn't mind the rat race so much if it wasn't for all the damn cats.
David Steuber wrote:
> mikel <·····@evins.net> writes:
>
>> > Debian is very conscientious about licensing and you need to use a
>> > seperate command to obtain the source of a deb package from your
>> > local
>> > mirror. So I don't really see the difference.
>> > This all reminds me that W3 doesn't work in my Carbon Emacs. Since I
>> > use GNUS to read my mail, that might be helpful. I don't know if W3
>> > is an optional package that I have to get and shove into Emacs.app or
>> > not. I haven't looked yet. I use Safari to browse the CLHS locally
>> > anyway.
>>
>> I think if LIAB includes SLIME, that's the optimal solution (maybe it
>> should come with the Hyperspec in the Docs folder, and preconfigured
>> to look there).
>
> I haven't really looked at the legalize stuff for HyperSpec. I don't
> think it is redistributable, but I'm not sure on that point. A
> question for Xanalys. I do know that the Debian installer goes to the
> Xanalys ftp site to fetch it for local install. For my Mac, I just
> copied it over from my Debian box.
So, why not have the installer fetch the HS the same way?
We'll... all right, I suppose Mac doesn't have installers either. A
first-time setup tool doesn't sound out of the question.
Svein Ove Aas <··············@brage.info> writes:
> David Steuber wrote:
>
> > I haven't really looked at the legalize stuff for HyperSpec. I don't
> > think it is redistributable, but I'm not sure on that point. A
> > question for Xanalys. I do know that the Debian installer goes to the
> > Xanalys ftp site to fetch it for local install. For my Mac, I just
> > copied it over from my Debian box.
>
> So, why not have the installer fetch the HS the same way?
>
> We'll... all right, I suppose Mac doesn't have installers either. A
> first-time setup tool doesn't sound out of the question.
The Mac has an installer. I think it could run curl or wget to grab
the hyperspec. Although I have to wonder just how different that is
from simply including it. It has to be unpacked to be useful anyway.
All that is required to redistribute the HyperSpec is to get permision
from Xanalys. This isn't a commercial product, so I don't see that it
would be a problem.
--
I wouldn't mind the rat race so much if it wasn't for all the damn cats.
In article <··············@david-steuber.com>, David Steuber wrote:
> I haven't really looked at the legalize stuff for HyperSpec. I don't
> think it is redistributable, but I'm not sure on that point.
I have. It is. From the Copyright and Legal Notices section:
> Permission to copy, distribute, display, and transmit the Common Lisp
> HyperSpec is granted provided that copies are not made or distributed
> or displayed or transmitted for direct commercial advantage, that
> notice is given that copying, distribution, display, and/or
> transmission is by permission of Xanalys Incorporated, and that any
> copy made is COMPLETE and UNMODIFIED. IN PARTICULAR, the material that
> MUST appear in the copy includes:
>
> - this copyright notice and its date;
> - the main index page, ../Front/index.htm;
> - all HTML pages to which the main index page links using relative links;
> - all graphical (GIF) images to which it links using relative links,
> such as the Harlequin logo that appears on each page; and
> - all hypertext links, relative or absolute, such as the link to
> http://www.harlequin.com/ that appears on each page.
HTH.
--
Larry Clapp / ·····@theclapp.org
In article <····················@theclapp.ddts.net>,
Larry Clapp <·····@theclapp.org> wrote:
>In article <··············@david-steuber.com>, David Steuber wrote:
>> I haven't really looked at the legalize stuff for HyperSpec. I don't
>> think it is redistributable, but I'm not sure on that point.
>
>I have. It is. From the Copyright and Legal Notices section:
>
>> Permission to copy, distribute, display, and transmit the Common Lisp
>> HyperSpec is granted provided that copies are not made or distributed
>> or displayed or transmitted for direct commercial advantage, that
>> notice is given that copying, distribution, display, and/or
>> transmission is by permission of Xanalys Incorporated, and that any
>> copy made is COMPLETE and UNMODIFIED. IN PARTICULAR, the material that
>> MUST appear in the copy includes:
>>
>> - this copyright notice and its date;
>> - the main index page, ../Front/index.htm;
>> - all HTML pages to which the main index page links using relative links;
>> - all graphical (GIF) images to which it links using relative links,
>> such as the Harlequin logo that appears on each page; and
>> - all hypertext links, relative or absolute, such as the link to
>> http://www.harlequin.com/ that appears on each page.
... which, tragically, means that there's no way to de-1996 the
thing and make it look a bit more modern 'n' CSS-ified. Pity.
--
Mike Kozlowski
http://www.klio.org/mlk/
> ... which, tragically, means that there's no way to de-1996 the
> thing and make it look a bit more modern 'n' CSS-ified. Pity.
This reminds me of the ex-leper in The Life of Brian.
--
Fred Gilham ······@csl.sri.com
A Bolshevik speaker promised his audience, "Come the revolution, we
will all eat strawberries and cream." "But I dont like strawberries
and cream," responded a listener. "Come the revolution we will *all*
eat strawberries and cream!," the Bolshevik intoned. -- Butler Shaffer
On Wed, 19 May 2004 23:37:13 +0000, Mike Kozlowski wrote:
> ... which, tragically, means that there's no way to de-1996 the
> thing and make it look a bit more modern 'n' CSS-ified. Pity.
Yup, I've been thinking the same thing recently. I'd show my friends the
wonders of this documentation and how I have Emacs calling out to my
web-browser to view it... only it looks so ugly I think it would just
reinforce their opinions of Lisp as yesterday's language.
Cheers,
Bill.
--
Dr. William Bland.
It would not be too unfair to any language to refer to Java as a
stripped down Lisp or Smalltalk with a C syntax. (Ken Anderson).
William Bland <····@abstractnonsense.com> writes:
> On Wed, 19 May 2004 23:37:13 +0000, Mike Kozlowski wrote:
>> ... which, tragically, means that there's no way to de-1996 the
>> thing and make it look a bit more modern 'n' CSS-ified. Pity.
>
> Yup, I've been thinking the same thing recently. I'd show my friends the
> wonders of this documentation and how I have Emacs calling out to my
> web-browser to view it... only it looks so ugly I think it would just
> reinforce their opinions of Lisp as yesterday's language.
Franz has a very nice version of the standard. It's distributed
together with ACL.
Regards,
--
Julian Stecklina
Signed and encrypted mail welcome.
Key-Server: pgp.mit.edu Key-ID: 0xD65B2AB5
FA38 DCD3 00EC 97B8 6DD8 D7CC 35D8 8D0E D65B 2AB5
Any sufficiently complicated C or Fortran program
contains an ad hoc informally-specified bug-ridden
slow implementation of half of Common Lisp.
- Greenspun's Tenth Rule of Programming
In article <············@reader2.panix.com>,
Mike Kozlowski <···@klio.org> wrote:
> In article <····················@theclapp.ddts.net>,
> Larry Clapp <·····@theclapp.org> wrote:
> >In article <··············@david-steuber.com>, David Steuber wrote:
> >> I haven't really looked at the legalize stuff for HyperSpec. I don't
> >> think it is redistributable, but I'm not sure on that point.
> >
> >I have. It is. From the Copyright and Legal Notices section:
> >
> >> Permission to copy, distribute, display, and transmit the Common Lisp
> >> HyperSpec is granted provided that copies are not made or distributed
> >> or displayed or transmitted for direct commercial advantage, that
> >> notice is given that copying, distribution, display, and/or
> >> transmission is by permission of Xanalys Incorporated, and that any
> >> copy made is COMPLETE and UNMODIFIED. IN PARTICULAR, the material that
> >> MUST appear in the copy includes:
> >>
> >> - this copyright notice and its date;
> >> - the main index page, ../Front/index.htm;
> >> - all HTML pages to which the main index page links using relative links;
> >> - all graphical (GIF) images to which it links using relative links,
> >> such as the Harlequin logo that appears on each page; and
> >> - all hypertext links, relative or absolute, such as the link to
> >> http://www.harlequin.com/ that appears on each page.
>
> ... which, tragically, means that there's no way to de-1996 the
> thing and make it look a bit more modern 'n' CSS-ified. Pity.
No way?
If all fails, you could contact the vendor at discuss your wish
with them???
Mike Kozlowski <···@klio.org> writes:
> ... which, tragically, means that there's no way to de-1996 the
> thing and make it look a bit more modern 'n' CSS-ified. Pity.
Have you tried contacting Xanalys and offered to redesign the
HyperSpec?
--
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
·····@gnus.org * Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen
In article <··············@quimbies.gnus.org>,
Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <·····@gnus.org> wrote:
>Mike Kozlowski <···@klio.org> writes:
>
>> ... which, tragically, means that there's no way to de-1996 the
>> thing and make it look a bit more modern 'n' CSS-ified. Pity.
>
>Have you tried contacting Xanalys and offered to redesign the
>HyperSpec?
No. That'd strike me as both rude and presumptuous, like saying "You
made this thing so ugly, and I'm so awesome that I could do it
better."
Also, I'm a bit confused about the legal status of it: The version on
Xanalys's site says it's copyrighted by Xanalys, but the version on
Lisp.org says it's copyrighted by Harlequin. Are those the same
company? Did Harlequin transfer ownership to Xanalys? Is Xanalys
just search-and-replacing terms to make it look like they own it when
they really don't?
--
Mike Kozlowski
http://www.klio.org/mlk/
Mike Kozlowski <···@klio.org> writes:
> Also, I'm a bit confused about the legal status of it: The version on
> Xanalys's site says it's copyrighted by Xanalys, but the version on
> Lisp.org says it's copyrighted by Harlequin. Are those the same
> company? Did Harlequin transfer ownership to Xanalys? Is Xanalys
> just search-and-replacing terms to make it look like they own it when
> they really don't?
Harlequin doesn't even exist any more, does it? They went bust, got
bought and separated into Global Graphics and Xanalys. One would
assume that the HyperSpec is one of the assets that went to Xanalys
and not to Global Graphics...
Cheers,
mwh
--
M-x psych[TAB][RETURN]
-- try it
Mike Kozlowski <···@klio.org> writes:
> No. That'd strike me as both rude and presumptuous, like saying "You
> made this thing so ugly, and I'm so awesome that I could do it
> better."
Really? Well, I have heard people being offended by getting patches
for code, too, so I guess that's a possibility. But it seems rather
odd.
I suppose it could depend on how you'd phrase it. If you offered to
CSS-ize the HTML, I can't see any reason why they'd be offended.
> Also, I'm a bit confused about the legal status of it: The version on
> Xanalys's site says it's copyrighted by Xanalys, but the version on
> Lisp.org says it's copyrighted by Harlequin. Are those the same
> company? Did Harlequin transfer ownership to Xanalys? Is Xanalys
> just search-and-replacing terms to make it look like they own it when
> they really don't?
I think Harlequin was bought in '99, and the Lisp business was spun
off into its own company called Xanalys. So it's kinda sorta the
same company.
--
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
·····@gnus.org * Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen
Mike Kozlowski <···@klio.org> wrote in message news:<············@reader2.panix.com>...
> In article <··············@quimbies.gnus.org>,
> Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <·····@gnus.org> wrote:
> >Mike Kozlowski <···@klio.org> writes:
> >
> >> ... which, tragically, means that there's no way to de-1996 the
> >> thing and make it look a bit more modern 'n' CSS-ified. Pity.
> >
> >Have you tried contacting Xanalys and offered to redesign the
> >HyperSpec?
>
> No. That'd strike me as both rude and presumptuous, like saying "You
> made this thing so ugly, and I'm so awesome that I could do it
> better.
But posting on Usenet and telling how ugly it is is not rude???
That's what I would call a classic troll.
>
> Also, I'm a bit confused about the legal status of it: The version on
> Xanalys's site says it's copyrighted by Xanalys, but the version on
> Lisp.org says it's copyrighted by Harlequin. Are those the same
> company? Did Harlequin transfer ownership to Xanalys? Is Xanalys
> just search-and-replacing terms to make it look like they own it when
> they really don't?
Yeah, you are confused...
On Thu, 20 May 2004 22:42:23 -0700, Rainer Joswig wrote:
> Mike Kozlowski <···@klio.org> wrote in message news:<············@reader2.panix.com>...
>> In article <··············@quimbies.gnus.org>,
>> Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <·····@gnus.org> wrote:
>> >Mike Kozlowski <···@klio.org> writes:
>> >
>> >> ... which, tragically, means that there's no way to de-1996 the
>> >> thing and make it look a bit more modern 'n' CSS-ified. Pity.
>> >
>> >Have you tried contacting Xanalys and offered to redesign the
>> >HyperSpec?
>>
>> No. That'd strike me as both rude and presumptuous, like saying "You
>> made this thing so ugly, and I'm so awesome that I could do it
>> better.
>
> But posting on Usenet and telling how ugly it is is not rude???
>
> That's what I would call a classic troll.
>
I certainly wasn't trolling when I called it ugly in my post to this
thread. I didn't mean to be offensive or rude (I'm honestly very sorry if
my post came across that way). I do think it's pretty wonderful
documentation and I love being able to have Emacs/SLIME pop it up whenever
I need it.
I just think it's a shame that the documentation is free but not Free (in
the Gnu/FDL-style sense of the word). Not that I'm saying it's immoral
for it not to be Free, or that Xanalys are "evil" or anything for not
making it Free... I just think it's a pity, that's all. Like I said,
didn't mean to be offensive - just to express an opinion.
Oh and the reason I wouldn't dream of contacting Xanalys and asking them
to make it Free? Well, who am I that they should listen to me? I
can't believe they won't have already considered and rejected the idea -
I'm sure they have good business reasons for doing so... but that doesn't
make it any less of a pity ;-)
Cheers,
Bill.
--
Dr. William Bland.
It would not be too unfair to any language to refer to Java as a
stripped down Lisp or Smalltalk with a C syntax. (Ken Anderson).
>>>>> On Fri, 21 May 2004 18:10:13 GMT, William Bland ("William") writes:
William> On Thu, 20 May 2004 22:42:23 -0700, Rainer Joswig wrote:
>> Mike Kozlowski <···@klio.org> wrote in message news:<············@reader2.panix.com>...
>>> In article <··············@quimbies.gnus.org>,
>>> Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <·····@gnus.org> wrote:
>>> >Mike Kozlowski <···@klio.org> writes:
>>> >
>>> >> ... which, tragically, means that there's no way to de-1996 the
>>> >> thing and make it look a bit more modern 'n' CSS-ified. Pity.
>>> >
>>> >Have you tried contacting Xanalys and offered to redesign the
>>> >HyperSpec?
>>>
>>> No. That'd strike me as both rude and presumptuous, like saying "You
>>> made this thing so ugly, and I'm so awesome that I could do it
>>> better.
>>
>> But posting on Usenet and telling how ugly it is is not rude???
>>
>> That's what I would call a classic troll.
>>
William> I just think it's a shame that the documentation is free but
William> not Free (in the Gnu/FDL-style sense of the word). Not that
William> I'm saying it's immoral for it not to be Free, or that
William> Xanalys are "evil" or anything for not making it Free...
William> I just think it's a pity, that's all. Like I said, didn't
William> mean to be offensive - just to express an opinion.
Nobody stepped up to the plate to create your hypothetical document
for free. It only got done because a company invested probably
around $200,000 to get it done in the way that they wanted it done.
Then they gave you the results of that expenditure at no charge.
Now you're complaining about the licensing terms.
Why don't you take a sabaatical from your job and spend a year or so
writing your own documentation, which you can do whatever you want with.
It would seem to be a pity for you not to do so.
On Fri, 21 May 2004 19:31:54 +0000, Christopher C. Stacy wrote:
>>>>>> On Fri, 21 May 2004 18:10:13 GMT, William Bland ("William") writes:
>
> William> On Thu, 20 May 2004 22:42:23 -0700, Rainer Joswig wrote:
> >> Mike Kozlowski <···@klio.org> wrote in message news:<············@reader2.panix.com>...
> >>> In article <··············@quimbies.gnus.org>,
> >>> Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <·····@gnus.org> wrote:
> >>> >Mike Kozlowski <···@klio.org> writes:
> >>> >
> >>> >> ... which, tragically, means that there's no way to de-1996 the
> >>> >> thing and make it look a bit more modern 'n' CSS-ified. Pity.
> >>> >
> >>> >Have you tried contacting Xanalys and offered to redesign the
> >>> >HyperSpec?
> >>>
> >>> No. That'd strike me as both rude and presumptuous, like saying "You
> >>> made this thing so ugly, and I'm so awesome that I could do it
> >>> better.
> >>
> >> But posting on Usenet and telling how ugly it is is not rude???
> >>
> >> That's what I would call a classic troll.
> >>
>
>
> William> I just think it's a shame that the documentation is free but
> William> not Free (in the Gnu/FDL-style sense of the word). Not that
> William> I'm saying it's immoral for it not to be Free, or that
> William> Xanalys are "evil" or anything for not making it Free...
> William> I just think it's a pity, that's all. Like I said, didn't
> William> mean to be offensive - just to express an opinion.
>
> Nobody stepped up to the plate to create your hypothetical document
> for free. It only got done because a company invested probably
> around $200,000 to get it done in the way that they wanted it done.
> Then they gave you the results of that expenditure at no charge.
> Now you're complaining about the licensing terms.
Agreed. That's why I said I was sure they had valid business reasons for
not Freeing the document. I never complained about the licensing terms -
I did try to make that clear. I feel no ill-will toward the people who
created the document (on the contrary, I am very *very* **very** grateful
to them). I merely expressed the opinion that it is a shame a Free version
of it doesn't exist.
> Why don't you take a sabaatical from your job and spend a year or so
> writing your own documentation, which you can do whatever you want with.
> It would seem to be a pity for you not to do so.
I'd love to! Yes, I agree, it is a great pity I can't afford to do that.
I'm not sure if we are arguing or agreeing... if we are disagreeing, let's
just agree to disagree - I don't want to start a flame war. I'm not an
"everything must be Free" bigot, even if I might be inarticulate enough to
come across as one from time to time.
Best wishes,
Bill.
--
Dr. William Bland.
It would not be too unfair to any language to refer to Java as a
stripped down Lisp or Smalltalk with a C syntax. (Ken Anderson).
······@news.dtpq.com (Christopher C. Stacy) writes:
> Nobody stepped up to the plate to create your hypothetical document
> for free. It only got done because a company invested probably
> around $200,000 to get it done in the way that they wanted it done.
Do you mean $200,000 just to convert dpANS to HTML? That seems
rather excessive to me.
--
Jesper Harder <http://purl.org/harder/>
On Wed, 19 May 2004 23:37:13 +0000 (UTC), Mike Kozlowski <···@klio.org> wrote:
> ... which, tragically, means that there's no way to de-1996 the
> thing and make it look a bit more modern 'n' CSS-ified. Pity.
FWIW, the Xanalys people themselves have been working on this
already. I think some of you are talking about the 4.0 version which
is still up at lisp.org and various other places. Xanalys is
distributing 6.0 or something like that. Compare these two:
<http://www.lisp.org/HyperSpec/Body/fun_pairlis.html>
<http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_pairli.htm>
They look quite different to me in Mozilla (and I see no mention of
Harlequin in the new version either).
Edi.
David Steuber <·····@david-steuber.com> writes:
> I much prefer looking at the CLHS in Safari to W3. But that means
> switching apps to view it and then go back to Emacs.
For browsing from within in Emacs you can also use a Texinfo version
of dpANS, <http://purl.org/harder/dpans2texi.html>.
--
Jesper Harder