Yes, I know this is cll! I'm asking here because I bet there are lots
of ex-lisp people who write python and have already looked for this
stuff.
Does anyone know of a decent python development environment/tools,
preferably based on emacs? What I want is something that will let me
evaluate individual definitions, (which the default emacs mode seems
not to be able to do reliably), and preferably let me do things like
reload-changed-definitions-of-buffer, remembering that this buffer is
actually module x. Some kind of usable inspector/debugger would be a
win as well - I want something which will get me an interactive loop
on all errors without having to hand-craft calls to pdb all over the
place. In particular I want to be able to insert breaks in the code &
look at variables, again without having to jump through hoops. I get
the feeling that all this is possible in python - there's enough
introspection there - but it isn't done by default and I don't want to
reinvent it...
`Use Lisp' isn't an acceptable answer: there is some pro-lisp
sentiment here, but doing stuff in Lisp isn't really plausible in the
short term. Java probably is, and it has all this stuff via hairy
IDEs, and I'd actually prefer Java to python, so that might be the
right answer I guess.
Thanks
--tim
Tim Bradshaw wrote:
> Yes, I know this is cll! I'm asking here because I bet there are lots
> of ex-lisp people who write python and have already looked for this
> stuff.
Python people, ex-Lispers or not, tend to hang out in their own
newsgroups. That doesn't mean there aren't any here, but this is
certainly not the right place to look.
> `Use Lisp' isn't an acceptable answer: there is some pro-lisp
> sentiment here,
SOME?! This is probably the largest gathering of pro-Lispers in the
known universe. :P Though sometimes it seems it's also the largest
gathering of anti-Lispers...
> but doing stuff in Lisp isn't really plausible in the
> short term. Java probably is, and it has all this stuff via hairy
> IDEs, and I'd actually prefer Java to python, so that might be the
> right answer I guess.
Then go to comp.lang.java.* and/or comp.lang.python.*.
Dirk Gerrits
Dirk Gerrits <····@dirkgerrits.com> writes:
> SOME?! This is probably the largest gathering of pro-Lispers in the
> known universe.
^^^^^
I'm glad you said 'known'. I'm pretty sure there are planets out there
where they discovered lisp a billion years ago ;-)
--
(espen)
Espen Vestre wrote:
> Dirk Gerrits <····@dirkgerrits.com> writes:
>
>>SOME?! This is probably the largest gathering of pro-Lispers in the
>>known universe.
> ^^^^^
> I'm glad you said 'known'. I'm pretty sure there are planets out there
> where they discovered lisp a billion years ago ;-)
That's where John McCarthy left-off in his spaceship on a billion year
journey to spread Lisp to Earth. ;)
Dirk Gerrits
Dirk Gerrits <····@dirkgerrits.com> writes:
> Espen Vestre wrote:
> > Dirk Gerrits <····@dirkgerrits.com> writes:
> >
> >>SOME?! This is probably the largest gathering of pro-Lispers in the
> >>known universe.
> > ^^^^^
> > I'm glad you said 'known'. I'm pretty sure there are planets out there
> > where they discovered lisp a billion years ago ;-)
>
> That's where John McCarthy left-off in his spaceship on a billion year
> journey to spread Lisp to Earth. ;)
I've heard that there's a pretty big Lisp convention on the planet
Wcnkvskvhk.
--
David Magda <dmagda at ee.ryerson.ca>, http://www.magda.ca/
Because the innovator has for enemies all those who have done well under
the old conditions, and lukewarm defenders in those who may do well
under the new. -- Niccolo Machiavelli, _The Prince_, Chapter VI
Espen Vestre wrote:
> Dirk Gerrits <····@dirkgerrits.com> writes:
>
>
>>SOME?! This is probably the largest gathering of pro-Lispers in the
>>known universe.
>
> ^^^^^
> I'm glad you said 'known'. I'm pretty sure there are planets out there
> where they discovered lisp a billion years ago ;-)
If there is life on other planets and this life has an intelligence
similar to ours do you think that they have the same programming
languages as us? Semantically speaking of course. Do you think they
use binary? I think they at least do that.
Do they have their C? Their Java? Python? Perl?
An interesting thought experiment at least. If they have similar
languages to us can we then conclude that we are on the right
way? Maybe we are both are on the wrong way. Maybe we even are on
the only way... And what do they call turing machines? Or maybe
they only have lambda calculus? Or Lisp.
Hey, will we ever know :)
--
Thomas.
On Tue, 23 Mar 2004 12:06:06 +0000, Dirk Gerrits wrote:
> Python people, ex-Lispers or not, tend to hang out in their own
> newsgroups. That doesn't mean there aren't any here, but this is
> certainly not the right place to look.
I just wonder: If we had a newsgroup comp.lang.exlispers: would there be a
lot of trafic there?
--
jb
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jblazi wrote:
> On Tue, 23 Mar 2004 12:06:06 +0000, Dirk Gerrits wrote:
>
>
>>Python people, ex-Lispers or not, tend to hang out in their own
>>newsgroups. That doesn't mean there aren't any here, but this is
>>certainly not the right place to look.
>
>
> I just wonder: If we had a newsgroup comp.lang.exlispers: would there be a
> lot of trafic there?
It would definitively be the most depressed group :)
Cheers
--
Marco
On Tue, 23 Mar 2004 12:43:40 -0500, Marco Antoniotti wrote:
> It would definitively be the most depressed group :)
Like in Fin de Partie by Becket, when one of the actors sais how
incredible it is that once, a long time ago, he was rowing on the Lago di
Como (if I remember correctly): Now the guys say: It seems incredible now,
but once, a long, long time ago, we still could use Lisp... (After this
the end of humanity ist the next step.)
--
jb
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jblazi wrote:
> I just wonder: If we had a newsgroup comp.lang.exlispers: would there be a
> lot of trafic there?
More interestingly, how much of that traffic would be generated by
*actual* ex-Lispers? (A species that in my mind cannot possibly exist,
but for which there have been many (alleged) sightings.)
Dirk Gerrits
Dirk Gerrits <····@dirkgerrits.com> wrote in message news:<····················@amsnews02.chello.com>...
> Tim Bradshaw wrote:
> > Yes, I know this is cll! I'm asking here because I bet there are lots
> > of ex-lisp people who write python and have already looked for this
> > stuff.
>
> Python people, ex-Lispers or not, tend to hang out in their own
> newsgroups. That doesn't mean there aren't any here, but this is
> certainly not the right place to look.
What I'm after is python environments that are acceptable to people
who are used to Lisp. Asking in a group dominated by people who use
Lisp and know what I'm after, and which includes some (rather few)
whose opinion's I respect seems like a better bet than asking in a
group dominated by people who are basically crawling out of the mud
(`what do you mean you want a grapher? What is a grapher anyway?').
Oh the other hand, yeah, this is cll, and thus dominated by people who
are really only useful for shoe-leather, so possibly I'm better of in
some other newsgroup. Any other newsgroup, probably.
> > `Use Lisp' isn't an acceptable answer: there is some pro-lisp
> > sentiment here,
>
> SOME?! This is probably the largest gathering of pro-Lispers in the
> known universe. :P Though sometimes it seems it's also the largest
> gathering of anti-Lispers...
You've mis-parsed the referent of `here': it's where I'm currently
working, not cll.
··········@tfeb.org (Tim Bradshaw) writes:
> Oh the other hand, yeah, this is cll, and thus dominated by people who
> are really only useful for shoe-leather, so possibly I'm better of in
> some other newsgroup. Any other newsgroup, probably.
Maybe you missed some potentially useful off-line replies? I for one reckoned
that it wasn't terribly relevant to c.l.l and didn't notice in time that
sending you an email apparently also requires sending a justificatory sms (a
glance at your From: seemed to suggest you were (relatively painlessly)
reachable via email).
'as
Alexander Schmolck <··········@gmx.net> wrote in message news:<···············@black132.ex.ac.uk>...
> Maybe you missed some potentially useful off-line replies? I for one reckoned
> that it wasn't terribly relevant to c.l.l and didn't notice in time that
> sending you an email apparently also requires sending a justificatory sms (a
> glance at your From: seemed to suggest you were (relatively painlessly)
> reachable via email).
It depends on whether I can dig stuff out from the spam. Given that
I'm only near my m`real' mail about once a week at present that means
digging it out from something around 3000 junk messages. Sometimes I
manage.
Tim Bradshaw wrote:
> Oh the other hand, yeah, this is cll, and thus dominated by people who
> are really only useful for shoe-leather,...
Can I be an NBA sneaker? It's the shoes! It's the shoes!
kt
Google won't let me see the article yet, but I apologise profusely for
the apostrophe in advance. Someone should research why people who
understand the rules very well stll make these errors occasionally.
Some errors seem to be wired-in. In programming languages I still
quite regularly do `if (x = y) ...' in C, and in Lisp one of my most
common errors is (setf x y z) when I mean (setf (x y) z).
--tim
Tim Bradshaw wrote:
> Google won't let me see the article yet, but I apologise profusely for
> the apostrophe in advance. Someone should research why people who
> understand the rules very well stll make these errors occasionally.
Its got two do with getting older, methinks. My theory is the hands have
decided they have worked out what Im up to and can go it alown. Reading
my own copy these day's is as much fun as the hand recognition on a Newton.
kt
--
Home? http://tilton-technology.com
Cells? http://www.common-lisp.net/project/cells/
Cello? http://www.common-lisp.net/project/cello/
Why Lisp? http://alu.cliki.net/RtL%20Highlight%20Film
Your Project Here! http://alu.cliki.net/Industry%20Application
>>>>> "KT" == Kenny Tilton <·······@nyc.rr.com> writes:
[...]
KT> Its got two do with getting older, methinks. [...]
No its got more to do with reading what illitirate loosers rite on usenet
all day.
B<my Turkish isn't any better>M
Dirk Gerrits <····@dirkgerrits.com> writes:
> Tim Bradshaw wrote:
> > Yes, I know this is cll! I'm asking here because I bet there are lots
> > of ex-lisp people who write python and have already looked for this
> > stuff.
>
> Python people, ex-Lispers or not, tend to hang out in their own
> newsgroups. That doesn't mean there aren't any here, but this is
> certainly not the right place to look.
I beg to differ. The problem with places like c.l.py is that you can
easily get bogged down in, firstly, long explanations of what it is
that you are talking about, and, secondly, discussions of why/whether
it is a good thing. Meanwhile on c.l.l people instantly understand the
issue, and understand why you want what you are asking
about. Furthermore, Lispers tend to have a relatively broad selection
of languages in their toolbox, and therefore I suspect that if you
have a slightly off-the-beaten-path question about language X, then
your chances of getting a useful response are higher if you ask on
c.l.l rather than on c.l.X (at least, if language X is a "popular"
language, and your question relates to features familiar to Lispers).
It might be inappropriate to ask here because you add OT traffic, but
I would argue that this is an appropriate place to ask from the
perspective of getting a useful response.
Jacek Generowicz wrote:
> Dirk Gerrits <····@dirkgerrits.com> writes:
>
>
>>Tim Bradshaw wrote:
>>
>>>Yes, I know this is cll! I'm asking here because I bet there are lots
>>>of ex-lisp people who write python and have already looked for this
>>>stuff.
>>
>>Python people, ex-Lispers or not, tend to hang out in their own
>>newsgroups. That doesn't mean there aren't any here, but this is
>>certainly not the right place to look.
>
>
> about. Furthermore, Lispers tend to have a relatively broad selection
> of languages in their toolbox, and therefore I suspect that if you
> have a slightly off-the-beaten-path question about language X, then
> your chances of getting a useful response are higher if you ask on
> c.l.l rather than on c.l.X (at least, if language X is a "popular"
> language, and your question relates to features familiar to Lispers).
I would not qualify that recommendation at all. Lispniks tend to have
useful answers on just about everything. I'd come here to ask about XML,
sockets, wi-fi, or george foreman grills.
> It might be inappropriate to ask here because you add OT traffic,
Methinks the Marshall Doctrine supersedes and overturns the on-topic
ethic here on c.l.l. Hey, there's a new one: cll, the Open Topic
Newsgroup. Or is that alt.misc.misc?
kt
--
Home? http://tilton-technology.com
Cells? http://www.common-lisp.net/project/cells/
Cello? http://www.common-lisp.net/project/cello/
Why Lisp? http://alu.cliki.net/RtL%20Highlight%20Film
Your Project Here! http://alu.cliki.net/Industry%20Application
"Kenny Tilton" <·······@nyc.rr.com> wrote in message
···························@twister.nyc.rr.com...
> I would not qualify that recommendation at all. Lispniks tend to have
> useful answers on just about everything. I'd come here to ask about XML,
> sockets, wi-fi, or george foreman grills.
XML - It's OK in its place. Now, XSLT I find rather clever and handy.
Sockets - All of my motorcycles are imported, so I use metric sockets. I
don't work on the truck.
Wi-Fi - It seems to Just Work for me on my wifes new iBook/Airport card and
a hand me down Belkin Router.
GF Grill - I have a small one. Its nice, but hard to clean. I wish it could
be immersed to make that easier.
HTH.
Regards,
Will Hartung
(·····@msoft.com)
Will Hartung wrote:
>
> GF Grill - I have a small one. Its nice, but hard to clean. I wish it
> could be immersed to make that easier.
It is not so hard. Just keep your sink empty, and run a trickle of tap
water onto the surface of the grill. Use a scrubber to apply soap to
surfaces. It's extra steps, not as easy as dunking the thing, but it's not
exactly "hard." A small price to pay for de-gooping your food of unwanted
grease, if such you care about. Not sure I do, but it was a gift and has
proved darn useful. I do think the addition of a wonton wire+bamboo ladel
is important however. I don't always want my sandwich squashed, and I need
something to keep it from clamping shut.
Oh, also, you don't have to clean it up after toasting a sandwich. Only
greasy things like burgers and stuff.
To make this slightly topical, I'd observe that despite all theory about the
possibilities of c.l.l'ers providing helpful trivia to Pythonistas, they
have refused to do so in this thread, instead enjoying a bonding ritual at
the Pythonista's expense. I don't pass judgement on this however, and
actually I appreciate the willingness to entertain the theory of help. It
sounds sorta helpful, in a sorta meta sense.
In other news I'm going in the opposite direction of the original poster,
having found Python performance inadequate for large scale 3D graphics app
and engine development, and much more importantly, a dearth of 3D projects
in the Python community that I can take code from. I'm not particularly
committed to another language yet, but I do have a Lisp fellow who wants
help writing a binding for the Nebula engine. So maybe I will do things his
way, pursuant to some barriers such as talking to C++ legacy APIs.
--
Cheers, www.indiegamedesign.com
Brandon Van Every Seattle, WA
When no one else sells courage, supply and demand take hold.
Kenny Tilton <·······@nyc.rr.com> writes:
> I would not qualify that recommendation at all. Lispniks tend to have
> useful answers on just about everything. I'd come here to ask about
> XML, sockets, wi-fi, or george foreman grills.
I have a Weber.
>> It might be inappropriate to ask here because you add OT traffic,
>
> Methinks the Marshall Doctrine supersedes and overturns the on-topic
> ethic here on c.l.l.
Gee, I get a doctrine?
--
~jrm
··········@tfeb.org (Tim Bradshaw) writes:
> Yes, I know this is cll! I'm asking here because I bet there are lots
> of ex-lisp people who write python and have already looked for this
> stuff.
Disclaimer: I have never used Python.
But some time ago, Peter Norvig wrote a comparative review of some
Python IDEs for a computer journal. I can't remember more about the
article, but you should be able to get more info from Norvig.
Paolo
--
Why Lisp? http://alu.cliki.net/RtL%20Highlight%20Film
Paolo Amoroso <·······@mclink.it> writes:
> But some time ago, Peter Norvig wrote a comparative review of some
> Python IDEs for a computer journal. I can't remember more about the
Or maybe it was a comparative review of some IDEs, including one or
more Python ones.
Paolo
--
Why Lisp? http://alu.cliki.net/RtL%20Highlight%20Film
Paolo Amoroso <·······@mclink.it> wrote in message news:<··············@plato.moon.paoloamoroso.it>...
> ··········@tfeb.org (Tim Bradshaw) writes:
>
....
>
> But some time ago, Peter Norvig wrote a comparative review of some
> Python IDEs for a computer journal. I can't remember more about the
> article, but you should be able to get more info from Norvig.
>
>
> Paolo
talking about this one ?
http://www.sdmagazine.com/articles/2001/0103/0103e/0103e.htm
-klaus
··········@yahoo.de (Klaus Momberger) writes:
> talking about this one ?
>
> http://www.sdmagazine.com/articles/2001/0103/0103e/0103e.htm
Yes, this is most probably the article I referred to.
Paolo
--
Why Lisp? http://alu.cliki.net/RtL%20Highlight%20Film
On 22 Mar 2004, Tim Bradshaw wrote:
> Does anyone know of a decent python development environment/tools,
> preferably based on emacs?
Have you checked ``IPython'' and its ``ipython.el''?
<http://ipython.scipy.org/>
Tibor Simko <·····@simko.info> wrote in message news:<···············@pcdh23.cern.ch>...
> Have you checked ``IPython'' and its ``ipython.el''?
> <http://ipython.scipy.org/>
Thank you: that actually looks useful, unlike most of the other idiots
in this thread!
··········@tfeb.org (Tim Bradshaw) wrote in message news:<····························@posting.google.com>...
>
> Thank you: that actually looks useful, unlike most of the other idiots
> in this thread!
And it does seem to be, after some mucking around with incompatible
versions of python-mode.el
--tim
On 25 Mar 2004, Tim Bradshaw wrote:
> And it does seem to be, after some mucking around with incompatible
> versions of python-mode.el
Yup, IPython is nice, although naturally far from being a full ILISP
equivalent for Python.
P.S. Speaking of Python development tools, my Python projects usually
deal with Apache/mod_python stuff. Unfortunately mod_python
requires an Apache context to get loaded, so it cannot be really
worked with from the toplevel. Too bad.
Tibor Simko wrote:
> On 22 Mar 2004, Tim Bradshaw wrote:
>
>>Does anyone know of a decent python development environment/tools,
>>preferably based on emacs?
>
>
> Have you checked ``IPython'' and its ``ipython.el''?
> <http://ipython.scipy.org/>
There's PyCrust too (included in wxPython)...
(I've never tried IPython so I can't compare... )
I also used Boa Constructor, which is not bad but more oriented
towards GUI building.
I've been using Python last year with these tools, and only
started Lisp (and Emacs) this year.
Both are excellent languages, IMHO.
Rolf
··········@tfeb.org (Tim Bradshaw) writes:
> What I want is something that will let me evaluate individual
> definitions, (which the default emacs mode seems not to be able to
> do reliably)
Could you say a few words on how it's unreliable for you?
Jacek Generowicz <················@cern.ch> wrote in message news:<···············@pcepsft001.cern.ch>...
> Could you say a few words on how it's unreliable for you?
I couldn't make it reliably have the right `evaluate-current-thing'
behaviour, or evern to reliably spot the current thing. I'm not
actually sure if the IPython/Emacs integration does have either, but
it's better in other ways.
(The `right' behaviour is basically: if this file is part of a module,
redefine the thing in the module's namespace, if it's not then just
put the definition into the interactive namespace. To do that I think
you have to have a map from pathnames to modules (which I think python
knows).)