To promote Lisp, and for very practical reasons that need not be
explained, I think we should pay someone to port CMUCL to Windows and
maybe even .NET if .NET becomes viable (I think there is a 50% chance
of that), and to release the port with the same license as CMUCL.
I think it's easy to raise at least a few thousand in prize money for
this kind of thing, maybe more. I'd even chip in out of my own pocket.
What we need is a respectable committee to decide who gets the prize
money for completing the port.
·············@yahoo.com (David Fisher) wrote in message news:<····························@posting.google.com>...
> To promote Lisp, and for very practical reasons that need not be
> explained, I think we should pay someone to port CMUCL to Windows and
> maybe even .NET if .NET becomes viable (I think there is a 50% chance
> of that), and to release the port with the same license as CMUCL.
The SBCL project has had some partially successful attempts.
http://sbcl.sourceforge.net/ports.php
"Kaz Kylheku" <···@ashi.footprints.net> wrote in message
·································@posting.google.com...
> ·············@yahoo.com (David Fisher) wrote in message
news:<····························@posting.google.com>...
> > To promote Lisp, and for very practical reasons that need not be
> > explained, I think we should pay someone to port CMUCL to Windows and
> > maybe even .NET if .NET becomes viable (I think there is a 50% chance
> > of that), and to release the port with the same license as CMUCL.
>
> The SBCL project has had some partially successful attempts.
>
> http://sbcl.sourceforge.net/ports.php
Also, might porting sbcl to cygwin be a useful first step? My (limited,
though I've been intending to do more research) understanding is that sbcl's
use of signals is what prevents it porting to cygwin (using clisp to
bootstrap the lisp part, which has worked on other platforms, I read).
A full sbcl port to win32 would involve a lot of duplication of this work
which could be done in cygwin first, then ported to standalone win32. Any
comments?
alex
"Alex Tibbles" <············@yahoo.co.uk> writes:
> "Kaz Kylheku" <···@ashi.footprints.net> wrote in message
> ·································@posting.google.com...
>> ·············@yahoo.com (David Fisher) wrote in message
> news:<····························@posting.google.com>...
>> > To promote Lisp, and for very practical reasons that need not be
>> > explained, I think we should pay someone to port CMUCL to Windows and
>> > maybe even .NET if .NET becomes viable (I think there is a 50% chance
>> > of that), and to release the port with the same license as CMUCL.
>>
>> The SBCL project has had some partially successful attempts.
>>
>> http://sbcl.sourceforge.net/ports.php
>
> Also, might porting sbcl to cygwin be a useful first step? My (limited,
> though I've been intending to do more research) understanding is that sbcl's
> use of signals is what prevents it porting to cygwin (using clisp to
> bootstrap the lisp part, which has worked on other platforms, I read).
>
> A full sbcl port to win32 would involve a lot of duplication of this work
> which could be done in cygwin first, then ported to standalone win32. Any
> comments?
Has anyone looked at microsofts unix tools for windows for this?
marc
On Thu, 18 Mar 2004 21:45:11 +0000, Marc Spitzer wrote:
> "Alex Tibbles" <············@yahoo.co.uk> writes:
>
>> "Kaz Kylheku" <···@ashi.footprints.net> wrote in message
>> ·································@posting.google.com...
>>> ·············@yahoo.com (David Fisher) wrote in message
>> news:<····························@posting.google.com>...
>>> > To promote Lisp, and for very practical reasons that need not be
>>> > explained, I think we should pay someone to port CMUCL to Windows and
>>> > maybe even .NET if .NET becomes viable (I think there is a 50% chance
>>> > of that), and to release the port with the same license as CMUCL.
>>>
>>> The SBCL project has had some partially successful attempts.
>>>
>>> http://sbcl.sourceforge.net/ports.php
>>
>> Also, might porting sbcl to cygwin be a useful first step? My (limited,
>> though I've been intending to do more research) understanding is that sbcl's
>> use of signals is what prevents it porting to cygwin (using clisp to
>> bootstrap the lisp part, which has worked on other platforms, I read).
>>
>> A full sbcl port to win32 would involve a lot of duplication of this work
>> which could be done in cygwin first, then ported to standalone win32. Any
>> comments?
>
> Has anyone looked at microsofts unix tools for windows for this?
>
> marc
At one point, a friend and I started on a cygwin port of sbcl. We
eventually gave up, because we had real paying work to do. But we both
think that SFU looks much more promising than cygwin, and now that I have
a spare windows box, I'm planning on working on a port again.
The biggest problem is that I have no working knowlege of sbcl internals,
but isn't this a great way to learn?
Andy
David Fisher wrote:
> To promote Lisp, and for very practical reasons that need not be
> explained, I think we should pay someone to port CMUCL to Windows and
> maybe even .NET if .NET becomes viable (I think there is a 50% chance
> of that), and to release the port with the same license as CMUCL.
Would the practical reason be to drive commercial vendors out of
business so cmucl gets more free developers? And, hey, the bankruptcy
court will probably put all their excellent extensions into the public
domain, so we /really/ win big!
Put me down for a dollar.
kenneth
--
http://tilton-technology.com
Why Lisp? http://alu.cliki.net/RtL%20Highlight%20Film
Your Project Here! http://alu.cliki.net/Industry%20Application
Kenny Tilton <·······@nyc.rr.com> wrote in message news:<·······················@twister.nyc.rr.com>...
> David Fisher wrote:
> And, hey, the bankruptcy
> court will probably put all their excellent extensions into the public
> domain, so we /really/ win big!
Bankruptcy courts assigning things to the public domain? Maybe I'm
just cynical, but I was under the impression that they will usually
transfer such "assets" to some shareholder, most likely a bank, that
will promptly refuse to acknowledge they own any of them for fear of
legal complications.
Jaap Weel wrote:
> Kenny Tilton <·······@nyc.rr.com> wrote in message news:<·······················@twister.nyc.rr.com>...
>
>>David Fisher wrote:
>>And, hey, the bankruptcy
>>court will probably put all their excellent extensions into the public
>>domain, so we /really/ win big!
>
>
> Bankruptcy courts assigning things to the public domain? Maybe I'm
> just cynical, but I was under the impression that they will usually
> transfer such "assets" to some shareholder, most likely a bank, that
> will promptly refuse to acknowledge they own any of them for fear of
> legal complications.
Well if we are going to be serious about this (not!), I'll have to call
my brother. He wrote the book (literally) on the purchase and sale of
assets in bankruptcy proceedings.
:)
kt
--
http://tilton-technology.com
Why Lisp? http://alu.cliki.net/RtL%20Highlight%20Film
Your Project Here! http://alu.cliki.net/Industry%20Application
Jan Rychter <···@rychter.com> writes:
> I didn't see Franz or Xanalys go bankrupt because of free
> implementations so far. What I do see is how free implementations make
> them adapt and improve their software.
And increase their market size and mind share.
It works like that: people who get the hint that lisp could be useful
download a free implementation, tweek it, develop some toy software
with it, may be a demo, and when they have sold the idea of developing
applications in lisp to their corporation, the accountants enter the
scene and ask who should they sign the check to. That's when the
commercial implementation intervene.
--
__Pascal_Bourguignon__ http://www.informatimago.com/
There is no worse tyranny than to force a man to pay for what he doesn't
want merely because you think it would be good for him.--Robert Heinlein
http://www.theadvocates.org/
Pascal Bourguignon wrote:
> Jan Rychter <···@rychter.com> writes:
>
>>I didn't see Franz or Xanalys go bankrupt because of free
>>implementations so far. What I do see is how free implementations make
>>them adapt and improve their software.
>
>
> And increase their market size and mind share.
>
>
> It works like that: people who get the hint that lisp could be useful
> download a free implementation, tweek it, develop some toy software
> with it, may be a demo, ...
Only if they are using the commercial stuff that comes with GUIs.
Otherwise they pull their hair out for a couple of days ("What do you
mean am I using ILISP or SLIME?") and go back to grown up IDES such as
Java and C++ offer.
Of course it is great fun having cmucl and its offspring out there, so
don't mind me, it's been a crummy winter, I'm just grouchy. The only
things cheering me up are Cello and the Lisp rugrats crawling all over
c.l.l. Looks like a frickin' day care center.
:)
kenneth
--
Home? http://tilton-technology.com
Cells? http://www.common-lisp.net/project/cells/
Cello? http://www.common-lisp.net/project/cello/
Kenny Tilton <·······@nyc.rr.com> wrote:
> Pascal Bourguignon wrote:
>> Jan Rychter <···@rychter.com> writes:
>>
>>>I didn't see Franz or Xanalys go bankrupt because of free
>>>implementations so far. What I do see is how free implementations make
>>>them adapt and improve their software.
>>
>>
>> And increase their market size and mind share.
>>
>>
>> It works like that: people who get the hint that lisp could be useful
>> download a free implementation, tweek it, develop some toy software
>> with it, may be a demo, ...
>
> Only if they are using the commercial stuff that comes with GUIs.
> Otherwise they pull their hair out for a couple of days ("What do you
> mean am I using ILISP or SLIME?") and go back to grown up IDES such as
> Java and C++ offer.
"Integrated Development Environment" for me usually means a ton of xterms
containing various vim and shell sessions. With my current Lisp project,
IDE means an Emacs for editing, two browser windows (one for the
application, one for checking the HyperSpec), two xterms (one for
tailing the webservers error log, one with an open REPL for quickly
testing stuff), more xterms when needed. Works rather well for me.
I did have to deal with the MS Visual C++ IDE at one time during my CS
degree (assignments in Win32 systems programming), but I was _damn_ glad
when I didn't have to deal with this thing anymore, it kept getting in
the way of getting stuff done.
Regards,
Alex.
--
"Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and
looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison
Alexander Schreiber <···@usenet.thangorodrim.de> wrote:
+---------------
| "Integrated Development Environment" for me usually means a ton of xterms
| containing various vim and shell sessions. With my current Lisp project,
| IDE means an Emacs for editing, two browser windows (one for the
| application, one for checking the HyperSpec), two xterms (one for
| tailing the webservers error log, one with an open REPL for quickly
| testing stuff), more xterms when needed. Works rather well for me.
+---------------
*Exactly* what I tend to have open!![1]
It's a great way to develop web apps, isn't it?
-Rob
[1] Well, except that I use "vi" [nvi-1.79] instead of Emacs.
But I understand that I'm a heretic.
-----
Rob Warnock <····@rpw3.org>
627 26th Avenue <URL:http://rpw3.org/>
San Mateo, CA 94403 (650)572-2607
Rob Warnock wrote:
> Alexander Schreiber <···@usenet.thangorodrim.de> wrote:
> +---------------
> | "Integrated Development Environment" for me usually means a ton of xterms
> | containing various vim and shell sessions. With my current Lisp project,
> | IDE means an Emacs for editing, two browser windows (one for the
> | application, one for checking the HyperSpec), two xterms (one for
> | tailing the webservers error log, one with an open REPL for quickly
> | testing stuff), more xterms when needed. Works rather well for me.
> +---------------
>
> *Exactly* what I tend to have open!![1]
> It's a great way to develop web apps, isn't it?
Oh well, I figure, from both a feature-completeness and usability point
of view, Visual Studio's debugging capabilities don't have to hide
behind any [vim|emacs] + debugger (frontend) combinations. They are
rather cool (also for web applications). Oh well, uncool thing to say on
c.l.l :)
Cheers,
Michael
>
>
> -Rob
>
> [1] Well, except that I use "vi" [nvi-1.79] instead of Emacs.
> But I understand that I'm a heretic.
>
> -----
> Rob Warnock <····@rpw3.org>
> 627 26th Avenue <URL:http://rpw3.org/>
> San Mateo, CA 94403 (650)572-2607
>
Rob Warnock wrote:
> Alexander Schreiber <···@usenet.thangorodrim.de> wrote:
> +---------------
> | "Integrated Development Environment" for me usually means a ton of xterms
> | containing various vim and shell sessions. With my current Lisp project,
> | IDE means an Emacs for editing, two browser windows (one for the
> | application, one for checking the HyperSpec), two xterms (one for
> | tailing the webservers error log, one with an open REPL for quickly
> | testing stuff), more xterms when needed. Works rather well for me.
> +---------------
Integrated is when you see your own trace message in the webserver error
log "path-to-wand punting on unsupported format: BZO" and you click on
"path-to-wand", hit a keychord, and now are looking at either its
definition in your source, or a pop-up menu asking to which method of
the GF you want to go to, showing for each the specializations.
ie, Windows? what windows? I am sure windows are coming and going and I
am jumping between them, but it is not the level of abstraction at which
I work. I can hit symbol-completion in any dialog, such as the File
Search or Find Definition dialogs. I have even fallen into the weird
habit of hitting alt-comma to get to the string search dialog instead of
the repl so i can type a few chars, hit control-stop for completion,
control-alt-stop to jump to the source.
Likewise with apropos. I see an item in the output and if its mine I hit
control-alt-stop to read the source, if it is CL I hit F1 to look at the
Hyperspec entry for that item (and then I alt-f4 the window which I do
not need to keep open because the Hyperspec is /integrated/.
Same thing with the debugger and the inspector and class browser. They
all talk to each other, because the IDE sees them all.
Your environment sounds great and highly productive, but you are doing a
lot of the integration yourself.
kt
--
Home? http://tilton-technology.com
Cells? http://www.common-lisp.net/project/cells/
Cello? http://www.common-lisp.net/project/cello/
Why Lisp? http://alu.cliki.net/RtL%20Highlight%20Film
Your Project Here! http://alu.cliki.net/Industry%20Application
Rob Warnock <····@rpw3.org> wrote:
> Alexander Schreiber <···@usenet.thangorodrim.de> wrote:
> +---------------
>| "Integrated Development Environment" for me usually means a ton of xterms
>| containing various vim and shell sessions. With my current Lisp project,
>| IDE means an Emacs for editing, two browser windows (one for the
>| application, one for checking the HyperSpec), two xterms (one for
>| tailing the webservers error log, one with an open REPL for quickly
>| testing stuff), more xterms when needed. Works rather well for me.
> +---------------
>
> *Exactly* what I tend to have open!![1]
X _was_ originally developed as a graphical TTY multiplexer, right?
*put tongue firmly in cheek*
> It's a great way to develop web apps, isn't it?
Yes, it is - and one sorely misses this on inferior environments. Thank
$DEITY:
- that the fruit computer company has Seen The Light (TM) and based
their current OS on UNIX,
- for the existence of Cygwin, as it makes life in the bad lands
ruled by the Blue Screen less painful
> [1] Well, except that I use "vi" [nvi-1.79] instead of Emacs.
> But I understand that I'm a heretic.
Well, favourite editors are a thing of taste. Both[2] are very
powerful tools. I'm usually a strict believer in vim, but I found emacs
better suited for Lisp development (and writing LaTeX), YMMV of course.
Regards,
Alex.
[2] vi and emacs in their various implementations[3], all other so
called editors are the toys of the unwashed heathens *g*
[3] usually GNU EMacs and vim
--
"Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and
looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison
From: Joe Marshall
Subject: Re: CMUCL for Windows - how much $$$ ?
Date:
Message-ID: <vfkwe7jm.fsf@comcast.net>
····@rpw3.org (Rob Warnock) writes:
> [1] Well, except that I use "vi" [nvi-1.79] instead of Emacs.
> But I understand that I'm a heretic.
The word you are looking for is `masochist', not `heretic'.
--
~jrm
Joe Marshall <·············@comcast.net> wrote:
+---------------
| ····@rpw3.org (Rob Warnock) writes:
|
| > [1] Well, except that I use "vi" [nvi-1.79] instead of Emacs.
| > But I understand that I'm a heretic.
|
| The word you are looking for is `masochist', not `heretic'.
+---------------
No, "masochist" is what I feel like every time I try to use Emacs
[or Hemlock]. My fingers just don't work that way, dammit!!! Too
many years using "moded" editors (like "vi" and TECO) for which
the most commonly-used command keys are all lower-case letters,
I guess. Any attempt to use Emacs [and I have made several over
the years, the most recent being just a few months ago] quickly
results in instant RSI (well, bad cramping). And Emacs's so-called
"vi mode" only works as a fundamental mode -- as soon as you start
doing anything else (like editing Lisp!) all the bindings revert!
Thank heavens "vi" at least has paren-matching and the "%" motion
selection/motion character (which works on shifts as well as cuts).
It's enough to make Lisp'ing quite tolerable, thank you very much.
So I will content myself to looking with longing from afar, and
slog through best I can...
-Rob
-----
Rob Warnock <····@rpw3.org>
627 26th Avenue <URL:http://rpw3.org/>
San Mateo, CA 94403 (650)572-2607
Alexander Schreiber <···@usenet.thangorodrim.de> writes:
> I did have to deal with the MS Visual C++ IDE at one time during my CS
> degree (assignments in Win32 systems programming), but I was _damn_ glad
> when I didn't have to deal with this thing anymore, it kept getting in
> the way of getting stuff done.
Ironically the VC++ IDE (and the VB IDE, may god have mercy upon your
soal) is the sort of thing that the new code monkeys like. I think
it's because it is pretty. Also those code generators sure do save a
lot of work (um, yeah).
Xcode on OS X looks really slick. If you are programming Objective-C
with Cocoa, it is a great way to go. You get a nice front end to GCC
and GDB. The Interface Builder is very nice to. And the code
generation.
Emacs + SLIME looks bloody primative by comparison. However, the
Emacs editor (and Vi) blows away the Xcode editor, VC++ editor, and
VB editor (do VB programmers still type any code at all?). It is an
odd feeling to be in something slick like Xcode and feel crippled at
the same time.
> "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and
> looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison
I rarely quote a sig, but damn if that ain't the truth.
--
Those who do not remember the history of Lisp are doomed to repeat it,
badly.
> (dwim x)
NIL
David Steuber <·············@verizon.net> writes:
> Xcode on OS X looks really slick. If you are programming Objective-C
> with Cocoa, it is a great way to go. You get a nice front end to GCC
> and GDB. The Interface Builder is very nice to. And the code
> generation.
>
> Emacs + SLIME looks bloody primative by comparison. However, the
> Emacs editor (and Vi) blows away the Xcode editor, VC++ editor, and
> VB editor (do VB programmers still type any code at all?). It is an
> odd feeling to be in something slick like Xcode and feel crippled at
> the same time.
Hmm. Something I've been meaning to get around to finding out for
quite a while. Can XCode be configured to "use" Emacs?
Should I infer from your words that it cannot ?
Jacek Generowicz <················@cern.ch> writes:
> Hmm. Something I've been meaning to get around to finding out for
> quite a while. Can XCode be configured to "use" Emacs?
I don't know. I haven't found anything about that in the docs other
than the fact that you can drop down to the command line tools for
everything.
> Should I infer from your words that it cannot ?
No. But I do wonder if you would lose valuable features like the
code browsing, ie the ability to look up a Cocoa word documentation
by clicking on it. I think there is also a word completion feature.
The main limitations I find are with what seems like broken auto
indentation and poor in buffer code navigation.
Of course I could be completely wrong about all of this. Xcode is a
fairly sophisticated app and I'm sure it is easy to overlook
features.
--
It would not be too unfair to any language to refer to Java as a
stripped down Lisp or Smalltalk with a C syntax.
--- Ken Anderson
http://openmap.bbn.com/~kanderso/performance/java/index.html
David Steuber wrote:
> Jacek Generowicz <················@cern.ch> writes:
>
>
>>Hmm. Something I've been meaning to get around to finding out for
>>quite a while. Can XCode be configured to "use" Emacs?
>
>
> I don't know. I haven't found anything about that in the docs other
> than the fact that you can drop down to the command line tools for
> everything.
You can do it, with some limitations. From the XCode help:
>
> Opening Files With an External Editor
>
> Xcode does not limit you to using its built-in editors to view
> and edit your files. You can specify an external editor of your
> choosing as the preferred editor for opening files of a given
> type. To choose an external editor for all files of a particular
> type:
>
> 1. Choose Xcode > Preferences, and click File Types.
>
>
> 2. Find the appropriate file type and click in the Preferred
> Editor column; a pop-up menu appears.
>
>
> 3. Select an option from the External Editor submenu. Currently,
> you can choose from the following options:
>
> ? BBedit.
>
>
> ? Text Wrangler.
>
>
> ? SubEthaEdit.
>
>
> ? emacs.
>
>
> ? vi. Note that support for vi in Xcode is limited to opening the
> file in the editor.
>
>
> ? Other. Choose this option to specify an external editor other
> than the ones specified earlier. When you select this option, a
> dialog that allows you to navigate to the application you wish to
> use as your external editor appears.
>
>
>
> For example, to edit all your source files with BBEdit, open the File
> Types preference pane and expand these entries: file, then
> text. Select the source code entry, and choose External Editor > Other
> from the pop-up menu that appears when you click in the Preferred
> Editor column. Navigate to BBEdit�s location on your system, select
> the BBEdit application, and click OK.
>
> There are some restrictions when you're using an external editor: �
> When you build a project, Xcode lists modified files and asks you
> whether you want to save them. Files in BBEdit and Text Wrangler are
> listed, but files in other editors are not. You need to save those
> files yourself before starting a build.
>
>
> When you double-click a find result or a build error, most editors do
> not scroll to the line with the find result or error. BBEdit and Text
> Wrangler can.
>
>
> To use emacs as an external editor, you must add these lines to your
> ~/.emacs file:
>
> (autoload 'gnuserv-start "gnuserv-compat" "Allow this Emacs process to
> be a server for client processes." t)
>
> (gnuserv-start)
From: Barry Wilkes
Subject: Re: CMUCL for Windows - how much $$$ ?
Date:
Message-ID: <k71cblxf.fsf@acm.org>
David Steuber <·············@verizon.net> writes:
> Alexander Schreiber <···@usenet.thangorodrim.de> writes:
>
>> I did have to deal with the MS Visual C++ IDE at one time during my CS
>> degree (assignments in Win32 systems programming), but I was _damn_ glad
>> when I didn't have to deal with this thing anymore, it kept getting in
>> the way of getting stuff done.
>
> Ironically the VC++ IDE (and the VB IDE, may god have mercy upon your
> soal) is the sort of thing that the new code monkeys like. I think
> it's because it is pretty. Also those code generators sure do save a
> lot of work (um, yeah).
>
As someone who (for his sins) programs every day in C++ -- on Windows, Solaris
and Linux -- let me just disagree strongly with this view of the VC++ IDE.
From the top :
1) It has a debugger that doesn't crash several times a day.
2) It has a debugger that supports templated types well.
3) The editor and debugger are tightly integrated.
3) Yes, in static languages, the IntelliSense feature is tremendously useful.
Now, I love emacs, and I use it for all my Solaris and Linux development. But
frankly, given the choice between that and the above pluses, I know which I
use on Windows. And yes, I _really_ miss the debugger on either Solaris or
Linux. In what way does that 'get in the way'? Oh, and for the development
I do, I _never_ use code generation wizards. Is someone forcing you to do
this when you use the VC++ IDE?
Finally, yes the VB language sucks, in many and varied ways. But, I have
never heard the development environment described as one of them. I don't
really use VB as such, but I do use VBA (via Excel) rather a lot. It's not
the prettiest language and neither is it the fastest environment (in terms of
execution speed). But, it is easily the most *productive* environment I use
on a daily basis.
I do find it strange sometimes that a language which in a sense gave birth to
the 'IDE', seems to attract some people who would seem to be happier
programming on a green screen with nothing more than an editor. In some ways
(as Gabrial hinted at in 'Worse is better', the rest of the World is catching
up with lisp in terms of development environments. Take a look at Eclipse.
Barry (who would rather be programming in LispWorks every day).
--
If in the last few years you haven't discarded a major opinion or
acquired a new one, check your pulse. You may be dead.
-- Gelett Burgess (1866-1951)
Barry Wilkes <·······@acm.org> writes:
> As someone who (for his sins) programs every day in C++ -- on Windows, Solaris
> and Linux -- let me just disagree strongly with this view of the VC++ IDE.
> From the top :
My last experience with VC++ was 5.0. That was a long time ago, so
I'm sure everything has changed since then. And the VB IDE at the
time was hate on first site for me. I preferred VC++.
> 1) It has a debugger that doesn't crash several times a day.
I crashed the debugger daily.
> 2) It has a debugger that supports templated types well.
Version 5.0 would show the full template name, not the typedef for
it. Those were some looooong names for STL classes.
> 3) The editor and debugger are tightly integrated.
Yes, this was nice.
> 3) Yes, in static languages, the IntelliSense feature is tremendously useful.
Not available at the time, so I can't comment.
Personally, I won't be happy with an IDE until it generates a program
as I think about it. I just suck with keyboards. I want a neural
net interface.
--
It would not be too unfair to any language to refer to Java as a
stripped down Lisp or Smalltalk with a C syntax.
--- Ken Anderson
http://openmap.bbn.com/~kanderso/performance/java/index.html
On 2004-03-17, David Fisher <·············@yahoo.com> wrote:
> What we need is a respectable committee to decide who gets the prize
> money for completing the port.
I used Pubsoft (http://www.pubsoft.org) for funding the SBCL-AMD64 port.
--
Kevin Rosenberg
·····@rosenberg.net
In an attempt to throw the authorities off his trail, ·············@yahoo.com (David Fisher) transmitted:
> To promote Lisp, and for very practical reasons that need not be
> explained, I think we should pay someone to port CMUCL to Windows and
> maybe even .NET if .NET becomes viable (I think there is a 50% chance
> of that), and to release the port with the same license as CMUCL.
>
> I think it's easy to raise at least a few thousand in prize money for
> this kind of thing, maybe more. I'd even chip in out of my own pocket.
>
> What we need is a respectable committee to decide who gets the prize
> money for completing the port.
I presume you misspelled "a few hundred thousand", and left it
ambiguous whether that was USD or GB Pounds.
--
output = ("cbbrowne" ·@" "acm.org")
http://cbbrowne.com/info/spiritual.html
"My dog appears to require more PM than my car, although he also seems
to be cheaper to service." -- GSB
Christopher Browne <········@acm.org> writes:
> In an attempt to throw the authorities off his trail, ·············@yahoo.com (David Fisher) transmitted:
>> I think it's easy to raise at least a few thousand in prize money for
>> this kind of thing, maybe more. I'd even chip in out of my own pocket.
>
> I presume you misspelled "a few hundred thousand", and left it
> ambiguous whether that was USD or GB Pounds.
I'd take somewhere in the region of the geometric mean of your two
estimates. Why do you think it would be so expensive?
Christophe
--
http://www-jcsu.jesus.cam.ac.uk/~csr21/ +44 1223 510 299/+44 7729 383 757
(set-pprint-dispatch 'number (lambda (s o) (declare (special b)) (format s b)))
(defvar b "~&Just another Lisp hacker~%") (pprint #36rJesusCollegeCambridge)
Christophe Rhodes <·····@cam.ac.uk> writes:
> Christopher Browne <········@acm.org> writes:
>
>> In an attempt to throw the authorities off his trail, ·············@yahoo.com (David Fisher) transmitted:
>>> I think it's easy to raise at least a few thousand in prize money for
>>> this kind of thing, maybe more. I'd even chip in out of my own pocket.
>>
>> I presume you misspelled "a few hundred thousand", and left it
>> ambiguous whether that was USD or GB Pounds.
>
> I'd take somewhere in the region of the geometric mean of your two
> estimates. Why do you think it would be so expensive?
Because a port to Win32 would require working on Win32 :-?
--
Raymond Wiker Mail: ·············@fast.no
Senior Software Engineer Web: http://www.fast.no/
Fast Search & Transfer ASA Phone: +47 23 01 11 60
P.O. Box 1677 Vika Fax: +47 35 54 87 99
NO-0120 Oslo, NORWAY Mob: +47 48 01 11 60
Try FAST Search: http://alltheweb.com/
Christophe Rhodes <·····@cam.ac.uk> wrote in message news:<··············@lambda.dyndns.org>...
> I'd take somewhere in the region of the geometric mean of your two
> estimates. Why do you think it would be so expensive?
How long do you think it would take? What's your daily rate?
··········@tfeb.org (Tim Bradshaw) writes:
> Christophe Rhodes <·····@cam.ac.uk> wrote in message news:<··············@lambda.dyndns.org>...
>
>> I'd take somewhere in the region of the geometric mean of your two
>> estimates. Why do you think it would be so expensive?
>
> How long do you think it would take? What's your daily rate?
I think it would take of the order of three months, working roughly
full time. I am not a consultant, and am therefore unwilling to quote
a daily rate, but I wouldn't consider $40,000 a poor remuneration for
three months' work (it's certainly better than academic pay :-). If
that's below some mythical market rate, sue me.
Christophe
--
http://www-jcsu.jesus.cam.ac.uk/~csr21/ +44 1223 510 299/+44 7729 383 757
(set-pprint-dispatch 'number (lambda (s o) (declare (special b)) (format s b)))
(defvar b "~&Just another Lisp hacker~%") (pprint #36rJesusCollegeCambridge)
Christophe Rhodes <·····@cam.ac.uk> writes:
> ··········@tfeb.org (Tim Bradshaw) writes:
>
> > Christophe Rhodes <·····@cam.ac.uk> wrote in message news:<··············@lambda.dyndns.org>...
> >
> >> I'd take somewhere in the region of the geometric mean of your two
> >> estimates. Why do you think it would be so expensive?
> >
> > How long do you think it would take? What's your daily rate?
>
> I think it would take of the order of three months, working roughly
> full time. I am not a consultant, and am therefore unwilling to quote
> a daily rate, but I wouldn't consider $40,000 a poor remuneration for
> three months' work (it's certainly better than academic pay :-). If
> that's below some mythical market rate, sue me.
In spite of my complaint about core file size, it would be cool to
see SBCL fully Win32. Wouldn't that make it Linux/*BSD/OSX/Win32?
That would be pretty damn good coverage.
There is also Win64 on the horizon. And, with any luck, Apple is
working on OSX-64bit for the G5.
--
Those who do not remember the history of Lisp are doomed to repeat it,
badly.
> (dwim x)
NIL
Christophe Rhodes <·····@cam.ac.uk> wrote in message news:<··············@lambda.dyndns.org>...
> I think it would take of the order of three months, working roughly
> full time. I am not a consultant, and am therefore unwilling to quote
> a daily rate, but I wouldn't consider $40,000 a poor remuneration for
> three months' work (it's certainly better than academic pay :-). If
> that's below some mythical market rate, sue me.
it's probably reasonable. Remember that you need to pay everything
out of that (machines, connectivity, insurance, employer's NI and so
on), and that if you're planning to do it as a living you want to
self-insure against periods when you get nothing. I think we worked
out that the company has to bring in about 100K (pounds) / year to pay
2 people 30k salaries. $40k for three months sounds slightly better
than that, depending on how many days work you get per year.
--tim
Christopher Browne <········@acm.org> wrote in message news:<···············@ID-125932.news.uni-berlin.de>...
> In an attempt to throw the authorities off his trail, ·············@yahoo.com (David Fisher) transmitted:
> > To promote Lisp, and for very practical reasons that need not be
> > explained, I think we should pay someone to port CMUCL to Windows and
> > maybe even .NET if .NET becomes viable (I think there is a 50% chance
> > of that), and to release the port with the same license as CMUCL.
> >
> > I think it's easy to raise at least a few thousand in prize money for
> > this kind of thing, maybe more. I'd even chip in out of my own pocket.
> >
> > What we need is a respectable committee to decide who gets the prize
> > money for completing the port.
>
> I presume you misspelled "a few hundred thousand", and left it
> ambiguous whether that was USD or GB Pounds.
Indian rupees ;-)
Seriously, let's not let this hang. What I think we need to do is:
1. Get people like Peter Norvig, Paul Graham, Dave Touretzky, Richard
Fateman and whomever they pick to be on the committee. It will be
easier to raise more money for the competition if such celebrities
undersign the judgment and awards process.
2. Decide on acceptability of the port criteria: I'd say a few major
portable Lisp packages must run on Windows without major
modifications, port code should be reasonably clean and maintainable.
3. Decide what type of competition this is: bidding process; or
whomever submits an acceptable port first, gets the money in exchange
for providing public license. I like the second one better, because
the amount of money is fixed, and in the first case, someone who is
incapable of, or uninterested in completing the port, but
overestimates his abilities might outbid those who would be more
successful (But I see problems with the first type as well)
4. Set up a paypal or some other account for contributions, and
contact parties that may be interested.
As to commercial Lisp vendors, I wouldn't worry too much. If it's true
that they provide value beyond the actual software, they shouldn't be
concerned. In fact, if this port help Lisp take off, they might
actually benefit from it.
·············@yahoo.com (David Fisher) wrote in message news:<····························@posting.google.com>...
> 1. Get people like Peter Norvig, Paul Graham, Dave Touretzky, Richard
> Fateman and whomever they pick to be on the committee. It will be
> easier to raise more money for the competition if such celebrities
> undersign the judgment and awards process.
>
You are, of course, assuming that all these busy people will just give
their time for free in the noble cause of, well, what? Windows?
--tim
··········@tfeb.org (Tim Bradshaw) writes:
> ·············@yahoo.com (David Fisher) wrote in message news:<····························@posting.google.com>...
>
> > 1. Get people like Peter Norvig, Paul Graham, Dave Touretzky, Richard
> > Fateman and whomever they pick to be on the committee. It will be
> > easier to raise more money for the competition if such celebrities
> > undersign the judgment and awards process.
>
> You are, of course, assuming that all these busy people will just give
> their time for free in the noble cause of, well, what? Windows?
... if you are taking a "glass half empty" view of it. A "glass half
full" prespective would identify the noble cause as Lisp.
Jacek Generowicz <················@cern.ch> wrote in message news:<···············@pcepsft001.cern.ch>...
> ... if you are taking a "glass half empty" view of it. A "glass half
> full" prespective would identify the noble cause as Lisp.
Half empty? It's lying in shards on the floor.
Jacek Generowicz <················@cern.ch> wrote in message news:<···············@pcepsft001.cern.ch>...
> ··········@tfeb.org (Tim Bradshaw) writes:
>
> > ·············@yahoo.com (David Fisher) wrote in message news:<····························@posting.google.com>...
> >
> > > 1. Get people like Peter Norvig, Paul Graham, Dave Touretzky, Richard
> > > Fateman and whomever they pick to be on the committee. It will be
> > > easier to raise more money for the competition if such celebrities
> > > undersign the judgment and awards process.
> >
> > You are, of course, assuming that all these busy people will just give
> > their time for free in the noble cause of, well, what? Windows?
>
> ... if you are taking a "glass half empty" view of it. A "glass half
> full" prespective would identify the noble cause as Lisp.
Dave TouRATzy is a busy porn and bomb instruction "celeb". Thought you
need to know that before you worship and hire that slimy CMU creep.
There is nothing noble about it. Much of what discriminating Touretzky
writes does not make even sense.
Barbara Schwarz
WARNING
To parents of students at Carnegie Mellon University
If you are the parent of a student who attends Carnegie Mellon
University, this notice is posted to help you.
David Touretzky is a research scientist at Carnegie Mellon University.
He teaches some of your children. He claims to be an "educator." For
this reason you should be made aware of the kind of person he is.
David Touretzky owns a website (hosted by the university) that
publishes instructions on how to build bombs. One of these bomb
instructions encourages people to throw these bombs into police cars.
This website is a mirror of an illegal site that was removed by the
FBI after its original creator was arrested. David Touretzky says he
created the mirror as a matter of "free speech." He claims no
responsibility for what his students or other children surfing the net
might do with these instructions. Neither does Carnegie Mellon
University. They allow Touretzky to use the University's computer
server to post this website, on your tax dollar or your tuition fees.
They also appear to have no care for its dangerous content and the
students who might feel encouraged to use them out of false admiration
for their "teacher."
This is not an innocent lack of judgment by Touretzky for, as they
say, where there is smoke there is fire, and Touretzky is involved in
other dangerous and perverted activities. In private and during his
work time he associates with extremists on the internet who attack and
harass religions and ethnic groups. Some of these extremists post
death threats against the people they harass. Touretzky regularly
associates with these people and he supports and encourages their
activities.
Touretzky has perversions that the parents of the students he teaches
should be informed about. He is a customer of sex shops and purchases
sexual implements. The invoice posted on this website as evidence of
this activity shows that Touretzky uses his University office phone
number for this sex shop to contact him. You can compare the phone
number listed in the invoice - 412 268-7561- with the phone number
listed in the university directory which goes to David Touretzky,
www.ri.cmu.edu/people/touretzky_david.htm. You can also find this
connection by searching in Google for "412 268-7561" and "Touretzky".
I had challenged some members of an extremist group on the internet of
which Touretzky is a part but had not really paid much attention to
him. Then I received the evidence presented here, likely by Touretzky
himself as some strange form of harassment. Touretzky supports people
who sexually harass women as can be seen on his website. He also has
pornographic photographs on his website - right there for children to
see - in which he disgraces property belonging to a religion. At that
point I began to research what kind of man Touretzky is and openly
challenged him about his dangerous activities on the internet.
Why would Touretzky encourage extremists and provide instructions on
how to build explosives if he does not have some secret perverted wish
to see others blown to pieces? Why would a teacher of impressionable
students be involved in this? Most important, why does the University
knowingly allow this man to use their server to post information that
is against the law and encourages terrorism? Perhaps for the same
reason they allow Touretzky to use his office phone to order sex toys.
They obviously do not care about their students or the kind of people
who are teaching them or about what their students are being taught.
As an example here are some of the extremists Touretzky calls his
friends:
Robert Clark was arrested in 1990 for hacking into Los Alamos National
Laboratory and has posted bomb threats on the internet.
Zenon Panoussis is hosting websites containing bomb-making
instructions and was a member of the Anti-Olympic Committee which
supported bombings to sabotage the 2004 Olympics. He was arrested in
1999 for verbally assaulting a police officer.
David Rice suggested in a posting to kill members of the FBI.
Frederic Rice has threatened governmental officials over the Internet.
He also hosts a site where he gives tips on how to kill bikers.
Andreas Heldal-Lund hosts a website with a message board that contains
death threats.
Arnie Lerma is a supporter of the Neo Nazis movement founded by Willis
Carto and is on the Board of Policy of Liberty Lobby, an anti-semitic
organization founded by Carto. He is also associated with the Utopian
Anarchist Party, that promotes the overthrowing of the U.S.
government, the killing of police officers and their website teaches
how to build bombs. Lerma is close to William White, spokesperson of
UAP who was arrested and convicted of battery and carrying a concealed
weapons.
These are the people that Touretzky associates with, people who
encourage terrorism. Touretzky's website also encourages terrorism no
matter his claims of innocence and "free speech". He knows that there
are people out there that want to know how to make explosives and who
will use them against innocent victims. Even if he claims no
responsibility, he is totally responsible for whatever he puts in
people's heads and the terrible results. Same for the Carnegie Mellon
University that sponsors this man and who lets him use facilities that
are sponsored by tax payers money.
Carnegie Mellon University is playing a dangerous game allowing David
Touretzky to continue to work at their university. How can a man with
such a warped mind be allowed to shape the minds of young students?
What if one of these kids uses the bomb instructions that Touretzky
put on the web to harm others?
Do you parents want to wait to find out how tragic the result will be
and if your child will be involved?
I encourage you to start asking questions now. Call the University and
speak to the Dean of Carnegie Mellon or the President (Dr. Jared L
Cohon) or contact the Board of Trustees. Let them know how you feel
about this so-called "educator" being allowed to teach your children.
Do not wait for another tragedy.
Act now!
Barbara Schwarz
From: Joe Marshall
Subject: Re: CMUCL for Windows - how much $$$ ?
Date:
Message-ID: <7jx8sk3f.fsf@ccs.neu.edu>
Joe Marshall wrote:
> David Touretzky
ROTFL
--
1st European Lisp and Scheme Workshop
June 13 - Oslo, Norway - co-located with ECOOP 2004
http://www.cs.uni-bonn.de/~costanza/lisp-ecoop/
Pascal Costanza <········@web.de> writes:
> Joe Marshall wrote:
>
> > David Touretzky
>
> ROTFL
Other things to do when you are bored:
http://216.239.41.104/search?q=cache:oQ5lJVjV-ZwJ:www.cyclingforums.com/t73994.html+%22David+Touretzky%22+%22Barbara+Schwartz%22&hl=en&ie=UTF-8
Personally, I just like to say, "Frau Blucher!" to horses.
--
It would not be too unfair to any language to refer to Java as a
stripped down Lisp or Smalltalk with a C syntax.
--- Ken Anderson
http://openmap.bbn.com/~kanderso/performance/java/index.html
Jacek Generowicz <················@cern.ch> wrote in message news:<···············@pcepsft001.cern.ch>...
> ··········@tfeb.org (Tim Bradshaw) writes:
>
> > ·············@yahoo.com (David Fisher) wrote in message news:<····························@posting.google.com>...
> >
> > > 1. Get people like Peter Norvig, Paul Graham, Dave Touretzky, Richard
> > > Fateman and whomever they pick to be on the committee. It will be
> > > easier to raise more money for the competition if such celebrities
> > > undersign the judgment and awards process.
> >
> > You are, of course, assuming that all these busy people will just give
> > their time for free in the noble cause of, well, what? Windows?
>
> ... if you are taking a "glass half empty" view of it. A "glass half
> full" prespective would identify the noble cause as Lisp.
------
From: NewzForYou (··········@aol.com)
Subject: Touretzky- in his own words
View this article only
Newsgroups: alt.religion.scientology
Date: 2004-03-20 21:00:50 PST
"Pomposity and mediocrity are measured by the ability to string long
phrases
together without saying anything worthwhile."
- Dave Touretzky
When expected reward is delivered early, the semi-Markov model assumes
that
this signals an early transition into the ITI state, and it thus does
not
expect further reward or produce spurious negative error (Figure 1d,
top).
Because of variability in the model's ISI estimate, an early
transition, while
improbable, better explains the data than some other path through the
state
space. The early reward is worth more than expected, due to reduced
discounting, and is thus accompanied by positive error.
Timing and partial observability in the dopamine system
David S. Touretzky
Andrei Markov is turning over in his grave.
-------
Porn and bomb instruction guy Dave Touretzky barked at the writer of
this posting (not me) that he shall word clear his articles then he
would understand.
On the other side, Touretzky is attacking and persecuting the study
technology of Scientology who teaches word clearing. Does he makes
sense to you guys?
Word clearing helps if the text makes sense, but if the text makes no
sense, as the one of Touretzky, all the world clearing in the world
does not make the text saner.
He actually admitted that he is saying nothing worthwile. What a
"star" for your committee.
Barbara Schwarz
···················@emailaccount.com (Barbara Schwarz) writes:
[A whole bunch of stuff]
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=+%22David+Touretzky%22+author:Barbara+author:Schwarz&num=100&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&scoring=d
This is just sad.
Google really should have taken less time to turn up the about 701
hits I got with this query. Maybe the Lisp code is not optimized
everywhere. Perhaps a complaint should be sent to Peter Norvig about
this.
On topic: Who thinks that Barbara Schwarz is a Lisp program?
Personally I think it is more likely to be Java.
--
It would not be too unfair to any language to refer to Java as a
stripped down Lisp or Smalltalk with a C syntax.
--- Ken Anderson
http://openmap.bbn.com/~kanderso/performance/java/index.html
On Fri, 26 Mar 2004 10:23:38 GMT, David Steuber <·············@verizon.net> wrote:
> Google really should have taken less time to turn up the about 701
> hits I got with this query. Maybe the Lisp code is not optimized
> everywhere. Perhaps a complaint should be sent to Peter Norvig
> about this.
Google uses Lisp? I don't think so. Just because Norvig is there
doesn't mean they're using a decent language. He has sold his
soul... :)
Edi.
>>>>> "Edi" == Edi Weitz <···@agharta.de> writes:
Edi> On Fri, 26 Mar 2004 10:23:38 GMT, David Steuber
Edi> <·············@verizon.net> wrote:
>> Google really should have taken less time to turn up the about
>> 701 hits I got with this query. Maybe the Lisp code is not
>> optimized everywhere. Perhaps a complaint should be sent to
>> Peter Norvig about this.
Edi> Google uses Lisp? I don't think so. Just because Norvig is
Edi> there doesn't mean they're using a decent language. He has
Edi> sold his soul... :)
I don't have a reference handy, but it's Python they're using
IIRC. Sure, it's not Lisp, but it is a nice language in its own right.
David Steuber <·············@verizon.net> wrote in message news:<··············@david-steuber.com>...
> ···················@emailaccount.com (Barbara Schwarz) writes:
>
> [A whole bunch of stuff]
>
> http://groups.google.com/groups?q=+%22David+Touretzky%22+author:Barbara+author:Schwarz&num=100&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&scoring=d
>
> This is just sad.
>
>
> Google really should have taken less time to turn up the about 701
> hits I got with this query. Maybe the Lisp code is not optimized
> everywhere. Perhaps a complaint should be sent to Peter Norvig about
> this.
>
> On topic: Who thinks that Barbara Schwarz is a Lisp program?
> Personally I think it is more likely to be Java.
I am no Lisp or Java program. I am also no cup of Joe. You guys
probably read too much of Dave TouRATzky's pseudo scientific mumbo
jumbo and now your head is spinning.
Why do you think that I am not allowed to post what a bad guy David
Touretzky really is for those that don't know him but glorify him?
After all, that guy, who is allegedly for free speech, and his above
the law friends, removed unlawfully four of websites critical about
David Touretzky. He has bomb instructions on his website, he
persecutes my religion, he sexually harassed me with a porn letter,
etc. Would you just swallow that and be quiet? So, why should I?
Barbara Schwarz
In comp.lang.lisp Barbara Schwarz <···················@emailaccount.com> wrote:
> Why do you think that I am not allowed to post what a bad guy David
> Touretzky really is for those that don't know him but glorify him?
Why are -you- the one in a condition of blame? Get your ethics in!
--
Karl A. Krueger <········@example.edu>
"Karl A. Krueger" <········@example.edu> wrote in message news:<············@baldur.whoi.edu>...
> In comp.lang.lisp Barbara Schwarz <···················@emailaccount.com> wrote:
> > Why do you think that I am not allowed to post what a bad guy David
> > Touretzky really is for those that don't know him but glorify him?
>
> Why are -you- the one in a condition of blame? Get your ethics in!
I have it "in". That means that if you have your "ethics in", you do
not tolerate discrimination, sexual harassment, perversions and bomb
instructions in a dangerous world like that. Those are just a few
things of which David Touretzky is guilty of.
You better world clear what "ethics" is, Karl, as you seem to have no
clue what it is, otherwise you would not cover for a guy like Dave.
Barbara Schwarz
···················@emailaccount.com (Barbara Schwarz) wrote in message news:<····························@posting.google.com>...
> David Steuber <·············@verizon.net> wrote in message news:<··············@david-steuber.com>...
> > ···················@emailaccount.com (Barbara Schwarz) writes:
> >
> > [A whole bunch of stuff]
> >
> > http://groups.google.com/groups?q=+%22David+Touretzky%22+author:Barbara+author:Schwarz&num=100&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&scoring=d
> >
> > This is just sad.
> >
> >
> > Google really should have taken less time to turn up the about 701
> > hits I got with this query. Maybe the Lisp code is not optimized
> > everywhere. Perhaps a complaint should be sent to Peter Norvig about
> > this.
> >
> > On topic: Who thinks that Barbara Schwarz is a Lisp program?
> > Personally I think it is more likely to be Java.
>
> I am no Lisp or Java program.
Then you are off-topic in comp.lang.lisp. What do you want here again?
> You guys
> probably read too much of Dave TouRATzky's pseudo scientific mumbo
> jumbo and now your head is spinning.
Entertain us. Why is his mumbo jumbo pseudo-scientific in your
opinion? What is your level of education by the way?
Read `Ratzki's book about Lisp :) Maybe you'll change your email to
···················@...". Who knows!
About CMUCL for Windows by the way. I got some money in my coffers. I
might donate up to about (min (/ total-prize-fund 20) (USD 1000)) .
That is if I trust the committee and know that the prize money would
be well-managed. If people want to get any of it, they should hustle
up before I spend it on booze or whatever.