The slides of the talks given at the 1st European Lisp and Scheme
workshop are now available online. Here are the titles:
+ Keynote by Christian Queinnec, "Two local optima: Lisp and Scheme"
+ Christophe Rhodes, "Grouping Common Lisp Benchmarks - Bignums and
Consing and Vectors, Oh My!"
+ Jonne Itkonen, "Software architecture adaptive compilers"
+ Per Bothner, "XML challenges to programming language design"
+ Sven-Olof Nystr�m, "Generalized comprehensions for Common Lisp"
+ Robert Strandh et al., "Flexichain: An editable sequence and its
gap-buffer implementation"
+ Sheng-Chuan Wu, "Lisp for Service Oriented Architecture Programs"
+ Frode Vatvedt Fjeld, "Movitz: Using Common Lisp for kernel-level
programming on commodity hardware"
+ Theo D'Hondt et al., "Pico: Scheme for Mere Mortals"
Unfortunately, Alexander Burger and Skip Egdorf couldn't attend the
workshop, so their papers about "Pico Lisp" and "A New Lisp Machine"
don't have corresponding slides. Of course, all the papers are also online.
See http://www.cs.uni-bonn.de/~costanza/lisp-ecoop/ for papers, slides,
photos, etc.
Pascal
--
Tyler: "How's that working out for you?"
Jack: "Great."
Tyler: "Keep it up, then."
Pascal Costanza wrote:
>
> The slides of the talks given at the 1st European Lisp and Scheme
> workshop are now available online. Here are the titles:
...snip...
>
> See http://www.cs.uni-bonn.de/~costanza/lisp-ecoop/ for papers, slides,
> photos, etc.
>
> Pascal
>
Congrats on this workshop. Just wondering: did c.l.l. ever see a proper
report on its success? I think I saw some cool deets on the alu list
which never made it here (but the short-term memory is fading fast, so
maybe I did see it here). Didn't this workshop draw pretty well compared
to others?
kt
--
Home? http://tilton-technology.com
Cells? http://www.common-lisp.net/project/cells/
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Why Lisp? http://alu.cliki.net/RtL%20Highlight%20Film
Your Project Here! http://alu.cliki.net/Industry%20Application
Kenny Tilton wrote:
> Congrats on this workshop. Just wondering: did c.l.l. ever see a proper
> report on its success? I think I saw some cool deets on the alu list
> which never made it here (but the short-term memory is fading fast, so
> maybe I did see it here). Didn't this workshop draw pretty well compared
> to others?
Yes, I definitely think so. On the other hand, I am somewhat biased, so
I would prefer to leave reports about the workshop to other participants...
Pascal
--
Tyler: "How's that working out for you?"
Jack: "Great."
Tyler: "Keep it up, then."
Pascal Costanza wrote:
>
> Kenny Tilton wrote:
>
>> Congrats on this workshop. Just wondering: did c.l.l. ever see a
>> proper report on its success? I think I saw some cool deets on the alu
>> list which never made it here (but the short-term memory is fading
>> fast, so maybe I did see it here). Didn't this workshop draw pretty
>> well compared to others?
>
>
> Yes, I definitely think so. On the other hand, I am somewhat biased, so
> I would prefer to leave reports about the workshop to other participants...
I am just talking relative attendance and the reaction of the ECOOP
people, not the quality of the presentations.
Or I could post an article saying it sucked and no one showed up and the
room was too hot (not that I was there, but when have I ever let
ignorance stop me?) and in between the invective directed at me c.l.l.
can find out what went down. I'll get to work on a good subject line
while you think about it.
:)
kt
--
Home? http://tilton-technology.com
Cells? http://www.common-lisp.net/project/cells/
Cello? http://www.common-lisp.net/project/cello/
Why Lisp? http://alu.cliki.net/RtL%20Highlight%20Film
Your Project Here! http://alu.cliki.net/Industry%20Application
Kenny Tilton wrote:
> Pascal Costanza wrote:
>>
>> Kenny Tilton wrote:
>>
>>> Congrats on this workshop. Just wondering: did c.l.l. ever see a
>>> proper report on its success? I think I saw some cool deets on the
>>> alu list which never made it here (but the short-term memory is
>>> fading fast, so maybe I did see it here). Didn't this workshop draw
>>> pretty well compared to others?
>>
>> Yes, I definitely think so. On the other hand, I am somewhat biased,
>> so I would prefer to leave reports about the workshop to other
>> participants...
>
> I am just talking relative attendance and the reaction of the ECOOP
> people, not the quality of the presentations.
Oh, you mean the raw data. ;)
Well, we had 40 participants, only 6 of which actually attended ECOOP
afterwards. The fact that the ECOOP organizers originally rejected the
workshop also means that they rejected roughly 10% of their number of
participants - I have heard that they had about 400 participants which
is a relatively low number.
Furthermore, the Lisp/Scheme workshop was the most successful
(inofficial) ECOOP workshop. The most successful actual ECOOP workshop
was the PostJava one with 24 participants, followed by 20 participants
at the Aspects/Reflection/Metaprogramming workshop.
The fact that the ECOOP organizers had rejected the most successful
workshop will most likely lead to a change in their organization of
conferences (that's what I heard from the inner circles), so the chances
are pretty high that we will have an official Lisp workshop next year.
(With the effect that the workload for us will be considerably lower,
which will give us time to make the workshop hopefully even more
interesting.) It seems that the ECOOP organizers are starting to
understand that focussing purely on Java (and so-called "Java-like"
languages, whatever that means) is a dead end. So there is hope that the
range of topics will become much broader again. BTW, this means that it
may be worthwhile to consider submitting workshops on other topics
because they will probably try to be very liberal in the near future.
Hopefully, this will also expand towards the main technical program.
(In this regard, it is also worthwhile to note that Matthias Felleisen's
keynote about "functional objects" (actually about Scheme ;) at the main
ECOOP conference was the only talk that none of the audience has left!
One can tell that the OOP crowd is waiting for some new influences...)
I have heard similar things about the organization of OOPSLA because
they seem to have similar problems, but I don't know how much I am
allowed to say in this regard.
About the workshop itself: I enjoyed all the talks, and I think
especially that Christian Queinnec's keynote set a good mood because it
treated both Scheme and Common Lisp with the respect that those
languages deserve. So we had no real language fights. ;) The most
surprising bits to me were that nearly 90% of the participants admitted
to use the LOOP macro regurarly (after having been asked by Sven-Olof
Nystrom in his talk about generalized comprehensions); the talk by
Sheng-Chuan Wu which gave many of us an impression of what we would have
to deal with if Lisp were mainstream ;); and the fact that you can beat
even Scheme's minimalism in an impressive way (-> Pico). (Note, these
were just the eye catchers in my very subjective view. Content-wise, all
the talks were highly interesting.)
In the final session we had a discussion about "politicial" issues,
mainly about whether we want to make Lisp more successful, and how to
achieve that. Some interesting ideas emerged from that discussion,
including some that have already been approached, like Arthur Lemmens's
survey of Lisp users. Of course, this didn't result in a big masterplan,
which wouldn't make sense anyway, but I think that there is a consensus
that having more regular workshops, conferences and also local meetings
(like the various Lispnik meetings all over the world) will accomodate
some healthy growth. Some people also mentioned concerns whether it is
actually a good idea at all to make Lisp more popular - after all, it
gives us a competitive advantage. My personal take on this objection is
that we currently don't face the danger of becoming the Next Big Thing
(tm), and that's not a worthwhile goal anyway IMHO. However, it is
important that we help to create an environment in which everyone can
use the tools that suits them most and that are the right ones for the
tasks at hand, instead of doing everything in Java and XML. To me, Lisp
is just one instance that I happen to prefer most, but on a more general
scale I am rather in favor of diversity instead of monoculture, no
matter what the monoculture would actually consist of.
Sorry for digressing. Is this the kind of report you wanted to hear? ;)
As I said, I would like to leave more detailed reports on concrete
contents of talks and papers, etc., to others...
Pascal
--
Tyler: "How's that working out for you?"
Jack: "Great."
Tyler: "Keep it up, then."
Pascal Costanza wrote:
> Sorry for digressing. Is this the kind of report you wanted to hear? ;)
Yes. :( I had some great subject lines in the works.
As for the turnaround, I am reminded of a Marley lyric: "The stone that
the builder refuse shall always be the head cornerstone."
http://hem.passagen.se/selahis/bible/bobm.htm
kt
--
Home? http://tilton-technology.com
Cells? http://www.common-lisp.net/project/cells/
Cello? http://www.common-lisp.net/project/cello/
Why Lisp? http://alu.cliki.net/RtL%20Highlight%20Film
Your Project Here! http://alu.cliki.net/Industry%20Application
Kenny Tilton wrote:
> As for the turnaround, I am reminded of a Marley lyric: "The stone that
> the builder refuse shall always be the head cornerstone."
>
> http://hem.passagen.se/selahis/bible/bobm.htm
As that URL indicates, that phrase is a bit older than Marley. :)
Paul
Pascal Costanza <········@web.de> writes:
> It seems that the ECOOP organizers are starting to understand that
> focussing purely on Java (and so-called "Java-like" languages,
> whatever that means) is a dead end. So there is hope that the range
> of topics will become much broader again.
It's about time.
(And thank you for the report on the conference and workshop; I'm
definitely going to check out the on-line materials.)
--
T. Kurt Bond, ···@tkb.mpl.com
In comp.lang.lisp Pascal Costanza <········@web.de> wrote:
> conferences (that's what I heard from the inner circles), so the chances
> are pretty high that we will have an official Lisp workshop next year.
Does this imply that to take part one has to pay the fairly hefty ECOOP
attendance fee?
I'm guessing that the great number of participants may have been
influenced by the relatively inexpensive workshop -- which is not a bad
thing by any means. The fact that only 6 people went to the main ECOOP can
be read in a multitude of ways...
Cheers,
-- Nikodemus "Not as clumsy or random as a C++ or Java.
An elegant weapon for a more civilized time."
·········@random-state.net wrote:
> In comp.lang.lisp Pascal Costanza <········@web.de> wrote:
>
>>conferences (that's what I heard from the inner circles), so the chances
>>are pretty high that we will have an official Lisp workshop next year.
>
> Does this imply that to take part one has to pay the fairly hefty ECOOP
> attendance fee?
Yes. hefty -> see below
> I'm guessing that the great number of participants may have been
> influenced by the relatively inexpensive workshop -- which is not a bad
> thing by any means. The fact that only 6 people went to the main ECOOP can
> be read in a multitude of ways...
Maybe, but let's get the facts straight first.
The early registration fee for workshop attendance would have been about
120 Euro / 145 US$ for students and 200 Euro / 245 US$ for non-students.
This would have covered two workshop days including coffee breaks with
sweets, lunch and receptions on each evening including buffets. (This
wouldn't have included attendance to the main conference, though. It's
usually possible to book workshop attendance only with those conferences.)
The Lisp workshop was one day including coffee breaks and lunch, but no
dinner, for 25 Euro / 30 US$. Given the fact how expensive food is in
Oslo, this amount is not so far from the ECOOP fees.
While Thor Kristoffersen has done an excellent job with the local
organization of the Lisp workshop, an official workshop with ECOOP would
have meant an integration with the even better infrastructure set up for
a conference (workshop rooms, projectors, etc.), and would have allowed
the organizers to spend more time on the actual workshop instead of
organizational issues (and let me assure you that not everything went as
smooth as we wished).
Anyway, thanks for your comment. This tells me that we have to
communicate these things clearly. It also tells me that we should try to
ensure that both workshop days at next year's ECOOP should be
interesting enough for Lispers...
Pascal
--
Pascal Costanza University of Bonn
···············@web.de Institute of Computer Science III
http://www.pascalcostanza.de R�merstr. 164, D-53117 Bonn (Germany)
Pascal Costanza <········@web.de> wrote in message news:<·············@f1node01.rhrz.uni-bonn.de>...
> While Thor Kristoffersen has done an excellent job with the local
> organization of the Lisp workshop, an official workshop with ECOOP would
> have meant an integration with the even better infrastructure set up for
> a conference (workshop rooms, projectors, etc.), and would have allowed
> the organizers to spend more time on the actual workshop instead of
> organizational issues (and let me assure you that not everything went as
> smooth as we wished).
I am impressed that everyone actually knew how to get to the workshop.
ECOOP was obvious; go to station X and walk straight to a big obvious
building. However, Lisp/Scheme entailed walking down some tiny,
nonobvious gravel path. (It took some time to walk around and put up
signs in "obvious places.")
I would have paid extra cash to speak with people like Smalltalkers.
They seem to have quite a bit in common with lispers, in terms of
general philosophy. (I respect that Schemers don't share that
philosophy, and Scheme would likely grow better without being stabbed
with the label "lisp," just for having some syntactic similarity like
C & Java.) Meeting people from other cultures in a relatively neutral
environment is really missing from the web. In person, especially.
> The Lisp workshop was one day including coffee breaks and lunch, but no
> dinner, for 25 Euro / 30 US$. Given the fact how expensive food is in
> Oslo, this amount is not so far from the ECOOP fees.
People should consider a 7-11 hotdog+coke "deal" for $4.35. Norwegians
seem relatively wealthy, and this is no doubt a fine deal for them.
Funny that an American like me is made to feel like a 3rd worlder. ;)
I like that.
This is not to say Oslo was bad; to the contrary it was a pretty
awesome, openminded city.
···········@yahoo.com (Tayssir John Gabbour) writes:
> I would have paid extra cash to speak with people like Smalltalkers.
> They seem to have quite a bit in common with lispers, in terms of
> general philosophy. (I respect that Schemers don't share that
> philosophy, and Scheme would likely grow better without being stabbed
> with the label "lisp," just for having some syntactic similarity like
> C & Java.) Meeting people from other cultures in a relatively neutral
> environment is really missing from the web. In person, especially.
This Schemer certainly thinks the Smalltalk world has a lot to
contribute, and would love to get together more with people from that
universe. I think we've hurt ourselves by not talking to each other
more, in part due to cultural differences (those in the research world
working on these languages go to different conferences, etc).
Shriram
···········@yahoo.com (Tayssir John Gabbour) writes:
> I am impressed that everyone actually knew how to get to the workshop.
> ECOOP was obvious; go to station X and walk straight to a big obvious
> building. However, Lisp/Scheme entailed walking down some tiny,
> nonobvious gravel path. (It took some time to walk around and put up
> signs in "obvious places.")
Lispers are familiar with walkers.
Paolo
--
Why Lisp? http://alu.cliki.net/RtL%20Highlight%20Film
Recommended Common Lisp libraries/tools (Google for info on each):
- ASDF/ASDF-INSTALL: system building/installation
- CL-PPCRE: regular expressions
- UFFI: Foreign Function Interface
Are you saying lispers are old and decrepit?
Although I do think the whole nonobvious path/signs in
"obvious places" description has a nice correspondence to
the (re)discovery(ies) of lexical scoping, optimized tail
calls and CPS.
Lynn
Paolo Amoroso wrote:
> ···········@yahoo.com (Tayssir John Gabbour) writes:
>
>
>>I am impressed that everyone actually knew how to get to the workshop.
>>ECOOP was obvious; go to station X and walk straight to a big obvious
>>building. However, Lisp/Scheme entailed walking down some tiny,
>>nonobvious gravel path. (It took some time to walk around and put up
>>signs in "obvious places.")
>
>
> Lispers are familiar with walkers.
>
>
> Paolo
Lynn Winebarger <········@indiana.edu> writes:
> Are you saying lispers are old and decrepit?
[...]
> Paolo Amoroso wrote:
>> ···········@yahoo.com (Tayssir John Gabbour) writes:
>>
>>>I am impressed that everyone actually knew how to get to the workshop.
>>>ECOOP was obvious; go to station X and walk straight to a big obvious
>>>building. However, Lisp/Scheme entailed walking down some tiny,
>>>nonobvious gravel path. (It took some time to walk around and put up
>>>signs in "obvious places.")
>> Lispers are familiar with walkers.
If I wrote "code walkers", my poor attempt at some sort of humor might
have been more explicit. Maybe that's a sign of old age.
Paolo
--
Why Lisp? http://alu.cliki.net/RtL%20Highlight%20Film
Recommended Common Lisp libraries/tools (Google for info on each):
- ASDF/ASDF-INSTALL: system building/installation
- CL-PPCRE: regular expressions
- UFFI: Foreign Function Interface
Paolo Amoroso wrote:
> If I wrote "code walkers", my poor attempt at some sort of humor might
> have been more explicit. Maybe that's a sign of old age.
Some of us got the joke. :)
Paul
···········@yahoo.com (Tayssir John Gabbour) writes:
> I would have paid extra cash to speak with people like Smalltalkers.
> They seem to have quite a bit in common with lispers, in terms of
> general philosophy.
I would strongly suggest going to your local Computer Science library
and picking out some old OOPSLA proceedings. From about 1986 to 1988,
the lions share of the papers were presenting work done on Lisp and
Smalltalk systems. (Then, from around 1990 onwards, the conference
became a lot less interesting.)
···········@yahoo.com (Tayssir John Gabbour) writes:
> People should consider a 7-11 hotdog+coke "deal" for $4.35. Norwegians
> seem relatively wealthy, and this is no doubt a fine deal for them.
>
> Funny that an American like me is made to feel like a 3rd worlder. ;)
> I like that.
I guess that being a Norwegian now feels a little like being an Oil
Sheik. But North Sea oil reserves are as limited as Saudis'.
--
__Pascal Bourguignon__ http://www.informatimago.com/
There is no worse tyranny than to force a man to pay for what he does not
want merely because you think it would be good for him. -- Robert Heinlein
In comp.lang.lisp Pascal Costanza <········@web.de> wrote:
> ·········@random-state.net wrote:
> Maybe, but let's get the facts straight first.
> The early registration fee for workshop attendance would have been about
> 120 Euro / 145 US$ for students and 200 Euro / 245 US$ for non-students.
Thanks for the clarification. I had a figure about three times that in
mind -- dunno where that came from.
Cheers,
-- Nikodemus "Not as clumsy or random as a C++ or Java.
An elegant weapon for a more civilized time."
On Sat, 03 Jul 2004 14:55:33 GMT, Kenny Tilton <·······@nyc.rr.com> wrote:
> I think I saw some cool deets on the alu list
ALU list - which ALU list?
--
"Lisp doesn't look any deader than usual to me."
(David Thornley, reply to a question older than most languages)
Real email: (replace (subseq ·········@agharta.de" 5) "edi")
Edi Weitz wrote:
> On Sat, 03 Jul 2004 14:55:33 GMT, Kenny Tilton <·······@nyc.rr.com> wrote:
>
>
>>I think I saw some cool deets on the alu list
>
>
> ALU list - which ALU list?
>
for the extended board. actually, not sure if it is a list or just
someone's address group.
kt
--
Home? http://tilton-technology.com
Cells? http://www.common-lisp.net/project/cells/
Cello? http://www.common-lisp.net/project/cello/
Why Lisp? http://alu.cliki.net/RtL%20Highlight%20Film
Your Project Here! http://alu.cliki.net/Industry%20Application
Kenny Tilton <·······@nyc.rr.com> writes:
> Congrats on this workshop. Just wondering: did c.l.l. ever see a
> proper report on its success? I think I saw some cool deets on the alu
You may check:
comp.lang.lisp thread with first impressions and comments by some attendees
http://groups.google.com/groups?dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&threadm=866764be.0406180617.73d3ceee%40posting.google.com&prev=/groups%3Fq%3Dcomp.lang.lisp%26ie%3DUTF-8%26hl%3Den%26btnG%3DGoogle%2BSearch
Audio recordings, pictures and more (site by Manuel Odendahl)
http://elsw.bl0rg.net/
Paolo
--
Why Lisp? http://alu.cliki.net/RtL%20Highlight%20Film
Recommended Common Lisp libraries/tools (Google for info on each):
- ASDF/ASDF-INSTALL: system building/installation
- CL-PPCRE: regular expressions
- UFFI: Foreign Function Interface