I ask because I am running Debian/testing on my web server. It isn't
a powerful box by today's standards, but I can't see a 566Mhz
Celleron with 384MB RAM and 40GB drive being inadequate for light
loads. It is, however, less powerful than my PowerBook G4.
Anyway, I was inspired by these two essays by Paul Graham:
http://www.paulgraham.com/avg.html
http://www.paulgraham.com/road.html
I'm not necessarily convinced that the world is going to an ASP model
of business. Still, there is one application that I would like to
try that might work as a web app when I am comfortable programming in
Lisp.
My Debian box is running Apache 1.3.x and I've installed CMUCL. I
put up the README file for cl-modlisp here:
http://www.david-steuber.com/~david/modlisp-readme.html
just in case no one knows what I'm asking about.
I haven't tested the install yet.
One thing I am curious about (and this is an issue for any webapp) is
dealing with the back button on browsers in stateful applications.
I don't think that is an issue I've ever solved to my satisfaction.
I'm also interested in what sort of power and flexibility I would
have available to me having a Lisp running that can dole out HTML via
Apache. It seems to me like there are a lot of interesting
possibilities.
--
One Emacs to rule them all. One Emacs to find them,
One Emacs to take commands and to the keystrokes bind them,
All other programming languages wish they were Lisp.
"David Steuber" <·············@verizon.net> wrote in message
···················@david-steuber.com...
> One thing I am curious about (and this is an issue for any webapp) is
> dealing with the back button on browsers in stateful applications.
> I don't think that is an issue I've ever solved to my satisfaction.
What problems are you having with the back button?
The biggest issue, typically, is when they BACK out of a long running task.
Most other problems can be worked with by ensuring that the browser isn't
caching the content and must refetch the page each time.
Yes, its a burden on the system, but it's the only way to keep the page data
as fresh as possible.
But, basically, if you treat your long running or important task
asynchronously, then backing out isn't an issue, as you can check the
process of the task and update the UI appropriately (still running, X%
complete, always forward them to a "task status" page once they started it,
disabled "Submit" button, simply wait for the process to finish, whatever).
This also helps resolve the "double submit" problem, and its more elegant
than telling the user to "don't do that".
It's not trivial, but it's not particularly complicated. The trick (which we
don't do) is to make it more intrinsic with the application so it's "easy"
to do.
It can make clustering a bit of an issue tho...
Regards,
Will Hartung
(·····@msoft.com)
From: Marco Baringer
Subject: Re: Has anyone done anything interesting with cl-modlisp?
Date:
Message-ID: <m2ad38ixof.fsf@bese.it>
"Will Hartung" <·····@msoft.com> writes:
> The biggest issue, typically, is when they BACK out of a long running task.
>
> Most other problems can be worked with by ensuring that the browser isn't
> caching the content and must refetch the page each time.
Unfortunetly, it's not quite that simple. You can't ignore the fact
that one long running task is rare, the common case is multiple,
possibly inter-dependent tasks.
The "back button/new window button issue":
When working with web apps we have to deal with the fact that there
exist two different views on the system: a) the server's internal
state, this is generally considered the "official" view and is the one
from which decisions are made. b) the client's browser's window
view. This is what the _user_ thinks the server state is and depends
on the current contents of the user's browser, over which we have no
control.
Problems arise when these two views get out of sync, not so much
because of a long running task (although this is a common reason for
the user wanting to go back or stop something), but because going back
results in confusion between the client and the server. (eg:
calculator app with state maintained on the server).
Unfortunetly specifying "no-cache" (or whatever it's called) headers
and meta tags is not the correct solution for two reasons: 1) we often
don't want the user to re-preform the action associated with the
previous request as this will, more often than not, cause the page to
be reprocessed, possibly losing the state relating to whatever the
user had done after that page, causing even more delays, or confusing
the web server. 2) due to buggy browsers, slow networks and other
technical reasons, we can't trust this solution to actually do what we
want (at least _i_ was never able to get it to work reliably (and i
really really really tried)).
The only reliable solution[1][2] is to examine each request and
consider it not just in the context of a single request but in the
context of that session's entire past and future history. At this
point you either: a) ignore the issue (a valid option from an
engineering pov), b) go mad (buah! ha! ha! ha!), or c) implement a
continuation based solution ("voodoo majik") using one of the many
available techniques: "first class continuations" (PLT scheme's web
server, SeaSide), CPS transforming (uncommon web, RIFE), builtin in
language with firts class continuations (cocoon's FLOW), etc.
> It's not trivial, but it's not particularly complicated. The trick
> (which we don't do) is to make it more intrinsic with the
> application so it's "easy" to do.
[out of curosity: who's "we"? what are "you"[3] doing to solve these
issues?]
It's not at all complicated, conceptually, but the implementation
complexety grows exponentially based on the number of different
"things" which can interact and the length of the interactions[4];
assuming you attempt to do it manually, if you accept the limitations
of doing it automatically it's both trivial and simple, once the
"automagic" part has been implemented.
> Regards,
>
> Will Hartung
> (·····@msoft.com)
There are many other issues related to designing (and maintaining and
evolving) webapps which i've given a lot of thought to but haven't
gone into here, if you're interested i'll rant about those as well.
--------
[1] - one fairly nice hack which is doable in any server is to
implement session locks whereby for each session you can be sure that
only one request is being processed at a time. This still ins't enough
but does help greatly if you can't use one of the other solutions.
[2] - I don't want to give the impression that I have working,
completly thought answers to all the issues realated to these
solutions, I don't. I do however believe that this is the right track,
and, well, "rome wasn't built in a day."
[3] - sometimes i wish english had second person plural.
[4] - what happens when you have two long actions, A followed by B and
the user gets to B then goes back to A? What about when there are
three actions involved: based on a field in A we go to either B or C,
the user gets to B then goes back to A, changes the form and arrives
at C (before B has finished computing).
--
-Marco
Ring the bells that still can ring.
Forget your perfect offering.
There is a crack in everything.
That's how the light gets in.
-Leonard Cohen
> [3] - sometimes i wish english had second person plural.
It does. Y'all take note, hear? :-)
--
Fred Gilham ······@csl.sri.com
If you have reliable data that disagree with a computer model, it's
time to find out what's wrong with the model. To do anything else
might lead you to conclude that your theories are correct and the real
world is wrong. -- Dr. John Christy, vs. global warming advocates who
argue with satellite data that don't show global warming.
From: Duane Rettig
Subject: Re: Has anyone done anything interesting with cl-modlisp?
Date:
Message-ID: <4ptc4tqeb.fsf@franz.com>
Fred Gilham <······@snapdragon.csl.sri.com> writes:
> > [3] - sometimes i wish english had second person plural.
>
> It does. Y'all take note, hear? :-)
Common mistake of northerners/westerners, analyzing it as a construction.
That phrase is actually second person _singlular_. The phrase you're
looking for is "All y'all take note, hear?"
--
Duane Rettig ·····@franz.com Franz Inc. http://www.franz.com/
555 12th St., Suite 1450 http://www.555citycenter.com/
Oakland, Ca. 94607 Phone: (510) 452-2000; Fax: (510) 452-0182
From: T. Kurt Bond
Subject: Re: Has anyone done anything interesting with cl-modlisp?
Date:
Message-ID: <86k72brbd1.fsf@corum.tkb.com>
Duane Rettig <·····@franz.com> writes:
> Common mistake of northerners/westerners, analyzing it as a construction.
> That phrase is actually second person _singlular_. The phrase you're
> looking for is "All y'all take note, hear?"
Then obviously there is regional variation, since here in West
Virginia "y'all" (or y'uns in the Northern Panhandle) is defintely
second person plural.
--
T. Kurt Bond, ···@tkb.mpl.com
-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-----
From: Rahul Jain
Subject: Re: Has anyone done anything interesting with cl-modlisp?
Date:
Message-ID: <8765dtj0w1.fsf@nyct.net>
···@tkb.mpl.com (T. Kurt Bond) writes:
> Duane Rettig <·····@franz.com> writes:
>> Common mistake of northerners/westerners, analyzing it as a construction.
>> That phrase is actually second person _singlular_. The phrase you're
>> looking for is "All y'all take note, hear?"
>
> Then obviously there is regional variation, since here in West
> Virginia "y'all" (or y'uns in the Northern Panhandle) is defintely
> second person plural.
In Texas, it's both. Or at least that's the impression I got from
spending 4 years there.
--
Rahul Jain
·····@nyct.net
Professional Software Developer, Amateur Quantum Mechanicist
From: Frank Sergeant
Subject: Re: Has anyone done anything interesting with cl-modlisp?
Date:
Message-ID: <8765dsevuf.fsf@bed.utoh.org>
Rahul Jain <·····@nyct.net> writes:
> > Then obviously there is regional variation, since here in West
> > Virginia "y'all" (or y'uns in the Northern Panhandle) is defintely
> > second person plural.
> In Texas, it's both. Or at least that's the impression I got from
> spending 4 years there.
No, no. "y'all" is singular. The plural is "all y'all".
If I am speaking to one person, I say
"Hi, how y'all doin' today?".
If I am speaking to a group of people, I say
"Hi, how all y'all doing' today?".
Also, "What the hell" is Texan for "Yes, please", as in
Q. Do y'all want another beer?
A. What the hell.
-- Frank
From: Rahul Jain
Subject: Re: Has anyone done anything interesting with cl-modlisp?
Date:
Message-ID: <87d67xw697.fsf@nyct.net>
Frank Sergeant <·····@pygmy.utoh.org> writes:
> Rahul Jain <·····@nyct.net> writes:
>
>> > Then obviously there is regional variation, since here in West
>> > Virginia "y'all" (or y'uns in the Northern Panhandle) is defintely
>> > second person plural.
>
>> In Texas, it's both. Or at least that's the impression I got from
>> spending 4 years there.
>
> No, no. "y'all" is singular. The plural is "all y'all".
Hmm, maybe these were furriners from other parts of the South. They all
looked the same to me. ;)
--
Rahul Jain
·····@nyct.net
Professional Software Developer, Amateur Quantum Mechanicist
Fred Gilham wrote:
>>[3] - sometimes i wish english had second person plural.
>
>
> It does. Y'all take note, hear? :-)
>
Youse guys need to learn how to talk.
--
http://tilton-technology.com
Why Lisp? http://alu.cliki.net/RtL%20Highlight%20Film
Your Project Here! http://alu.cliki.net/Industry%20Application
From: Artem Baguinski
Subject: Re: Has anyone done anything interesting with cl-modlisp?
Date:
Message-ID: <87brnotpfx.fsf@caracolito.lan>
Kenny Tilton <·······@nyc.rr.com> writes:
> Fred Gilham wrote:
>>>[3] - sometimes i wish english had second person plural.
>> It does. Y'all take note, hear? :-)
>>
>
> Youse guys need to learn how to talk.
IIRC Irvine Welsh spells it as "yous", although that's scottish, not
english ;-)
--
gr{oe|ee}t{en|ings}
artm
Artem Baguinski wrote:
> Kenny Tilton <·······@nyc.rr.com> writes:
>
>
>>Fred Gilham wrote:
...
>>Youse guys need to learn how to talk.
>
>
> IIRC Irvine Welsh spells it as "yous", although that's scottish, not
> english ;-)
>
In Liverpool it's 'youse' or 'yers', not 'yous'.
Artem Baguinski <····@v2.nl> wrote in message news:<··············@caracolito.lan>...
> Kenny Tilton <·······@nyc.rr.com> writes:
>
> > Fred Gilham wrote:
> >>>[3] - sometimes i wish english had second person plural.
> >> It does. Y'all take note, hear? :-)
> >>
> >
> > Youse guys need to learn how to talk.
>
> IIRC Irvine Welsh spells it as "yous", although that's scottish, not
> english ;-)
What's wrong with the good-olde English "ye"? See
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=ye
From: Tim Bradshaw
Subject: Re: Has anyone done anything interesting with cl-modlisp?
Date:
Message-ID: <ey3r7wkpc75.fsf@cley.com>
* Fred Gilham wrote:
>> [3] - sometimes i wish english had second person plural.
> It does. Y'all take note, hear? :-)
Or alternatively, it does: `you'. It's just that the second person
*singular* - `thou' - is mostly out of use.
--tim
On 2004-02-24 13:25:02 -0500, Tim Bradshaw <···@cley.com> said:
> It's just that the second person
> *singular* - `thou' - is mostly out of use.
Forsooth?
Tim Bradshaw <···@cley.com> writes:
> * Fred Gilham wrote:
> >> [3] - sometimes i wish english had second person plural.
>
> > It does. Y'all take note, hear? :-)
>
> Or alternatively, it does: `you'. It's just that the second person
> *singular* - `thou' - is mostly out of use.
The second person familiar singular "thou" is mostly out of use. The
second person polite singular "you" is still in use. It is quite
common to re-use plural forms as polite singular (though at least
German has the decency to make a distiction by capitalisation in text).
//Ingvar
--
When C++ is your hammer, everything looks like a thumb
Latest seen from Steven M. Haflich, in c.l.l
Ingvar Mattsson <······@cathouse.bofh.se> writes:
> Tim Bradshaw <···@cley.com> writes:
>
> > * Fred Gilham wrote:
> > >> [3] - sometimes i wish english had second person plural.
> >
> > > It does. Y'all take note, hear? :-)
> >
> > Or alternatively, it does: `you'. It's just that the second person
> > *singular* - `thou' - is mostly out of use.
>
> The second person familiar singular "thou" is mostly out of use. The
> second person polite singular "you" is still in use. It is quite
> common to re-use plural forms as polite singular (though at least
> German has the decency to make a distiction by capitalisation in text).
The irony (for me) is that the most common use of "thou" these days is
as a formal reference to God because people don't understand the
above. I find the theological implications of this...well, I never
know whether to laugh or cry....
--
Fred Gilham gilham @ csl . sri . com
King Christ, this world is all aleak, / And life preservers there are none,
And waves that only He may walk / Who dared to call Himself a man.
-- e. e. cummings, from Jehovah Buried, Satan Dead
Fred Gilham <······@snapdragon.csl.sri.com> writes:
> Ingvar Mattsson <······@cathouse.bofh.se> writes:
>
> > Tim Bradshaw <···@cley.com> writes:
> >
> > > * Fred Gilham wrote:
> > > >> [3] - sometimes i wish english had second person plural.
> > >
> > > > It does. Y'all take note, hear? :-)
> > >
> > > Or alternatively, it does: `you'. It's just that the second person
> > > *singular* - `thou' - is mostly out of use.
> >
> > The second person familiar singular "thou" is mostly out of use. The
> > second person polite singular "you" is still in use. It is quite
> > common to re-use plural forms as polite singular (though at least
> > German has the decency to make a distiction by capitalisation in text).
>
> The irony (for me) is that the most common use of "thou" these days is
> as a formal reference to God because people don't understand the
> above. I find the theological implications of this...well, I never
> know whether to laugh or cry....
That's because most people do not take the step from "I am talking to
my Father, who is in Heaven" to "why on *Earth* should I be formal?",
I'd say.
//Ingvar
--
A routing decision is made at every routing point, making local hacks
hard to permeate the network with.
From: Rahul Jain
Subject: Re: Has anyone done anything interesting with cl-modlisp?
Date:
Message-ID: <871xohj0tv.fsf@nyct.net>
Ingvar Mattsson <······@cathouse.bofh.se> writes:
> That's because most people do not take the step from "I am talking to
> my Father, who is in Heaven" to "why on *Earth* should I be formal?",
> I'd say.
Something about God is supposed to be your best friend or something...
--
Rahul Jain
·····@nyct.net
Professional Software Developer, Amateur Quantum Mechanicist
On Tue, 24 Feb 2004 11:22:56 +0100, Marco Baringer <··@bese.it> wrote:
>
>There are many other issues related to designing (and maintaining and
>evolving) webapps which i've given a lot of thought to but haven't
>gone into here, if you're interested i'll rant about those as well.
Please do so. :-)
From: Marco Baringer
Subject: Re: Has anyone done anything interesting with cl-modlisp?
Date:
Message-ID: <m2u11hsbf1.fsf@bese.it>
David Steuber <·············@verizon.net> writes:
> One thing I am curious about (and this is an issue for any webapp) is
> dealing with the back button on browsers in stateful applications.
> I don't think that is an issue I've ever solved to my satisfaction.
UnCommon Web (http://common-lisp.net/project/ucw) is an attempt to
deal with this very issue, the 0.2.0pre0 release (which includes
sessions transactions) was made today and is available from:
ftp://ftp.common-lisp.net/pub/ucw/ucw_0.2.0pre0.tar.gz
> I'm also interested in what sort of power and flexibility I would
> have available to me having a Lisp running that can dole out HTML via
> Apache. It seems to me like there are a lot of interesting
> possibilities.
"there are a lot of interesting possibilities" is akin to saying "the
sun is warm" :)
--
-Marco
Ring the bells that still can ring.
Forget your perfect offering.
There is a crack in everything.
That's how the light gets in.
-Leonard Cohen
From: Billy O'Connor
Subject: Re: Has anyone done anything interesting with cl-modlisp?
Date:
Message-ID: <87llmticuw.fsf@dps11.gnuyork.org>
Marco Baringer <··@bese.it> writes:
> UnCommon Web (http://common-lisp.net/project/ucw) is an attempt to
> deal with this very issue, the 0.2.0pre0 release (which includes
> sessions transactions) was made today and is available from:
>
> ftp://ftp.common-lisp.net/pub/ucw/ucw_0.2.0pre0.tar.gz
ftp://ftp.common-lisp.net/pub/project/ucw/ucw_0.2.0pre0.tar.gz
From: David Steuber
Subject: Re: Has anyone done anything interesting with cl-modlisp?
Date:
Message-ID: <m2ishwjhja.fsf@david-steuber.com>
Marco Baringer <··@bese.it> writes:
> David Steuber <·············@verizon.net> writes:
>
> > I'm also interested in what sort of power and flexibility I would
> > have available to me having a Lisp running that can dole out HTML via
> > Apache. It seems to me like there are a lot of interesting
> > possibilities.
>
> "there are a lot of interesting possibilities" is akin to saying "the
> sun is warm" :)
Well it is. Even in the winter.
I'm just wondering that if/when I get comfortable with Lisp (I still
think in C) I will be able to conceive of, design, and implement web
applications in Lisp that would be more difficult in other languages
including Perl or Python.
My last work involving a web app was Perl with Perl::DBI talking to
Oracle for a catalog application. It was quite a monster. There
were some methods for dealing with the back button (most of the time
it was fine to use it) and double submits (the subsequent submit
would quietly fail without the user noticing).
Another challenge was trying to seperate program logic from page
layout. A template system was used for the benefit of the web UI
people but it still required them knowing a little bit of Perl on top
of HTML.
Good clean seperation of the UI from the program logic is very nice
to have. Having a form submission that results in a function call
that in turn picks an appropriate template that is mostly plain HTML
to format the return output seems like a good model.
Way back before Microsoft's ASP there was an interesting language
called Meta-HTML which was fairly Lisp like. Appart from being slow,
it's major problem, IMO, was that it also did application logic.
This is a major flaw in Active Server Pages as far as I am concerned.
--
One Emacs to rule them all. One Emacs to find them,
One Emacs to take commands and to the keystrokes bind them,
All other programming languages wish they were Lisp.
From: Marc Battyani
Subject: Re: Has anyone done anything interesting with cl-modlisp?
Date:
Message-ID: <c1gqka$tv8@library1.airnews.net>
"David Steuber" <·············@verizon.net> wrote
>
> I'm not necessarily convinced that the world is going to an ASP model
> of business. Still, there is one application that I would like to
> try that might work as a web app when I am comfortable programming in
> Lisp.
Lisp is very good for complex web apps.
> One thing I am curious about (and this is an issue for any webapp) is
> dealing with the back button on browsers in stateful applications.
> I don't think that is an issue I've ever solved to my satisfaction.
>
> I'm also interested in what sort of power and flexibility I would
> have available to me having a Lisp running that can dole out HTML via
> Apache. It seems to me like there are a lot of interesting
> possibilities.
You should look at the discussions about HTML generation macros on c.l.l with
google
The short answer is that Lisp is by far the best tool for writing web apps.
Marc
From: Marco Antoniotti
Subject: Re: Has anyone done anything interesting with cl-modlisp?
Date:
Message-ID: <PX5%b.53$IJ5.17488@typhoon.nyu.edu>
We have been playing around with it and it works nicely. Incidentally
we fixed it for Apache 2.0 DESPITE the difficulties of figuring out some
mess with the APR library.
Cheers
marco
David Steuber wrote:
> I ask because I am running Debian/testing on my web server. It isn't
> a powerful box by today's standards, but I can't see a 566Mhz
> Celleron with 384MB RAM and 40GB drive being inadequate for light
> loads. It is, however, less powerful than my PowerBook G4.
>
> Anyway, I was inspired by these two essays by Paul Graham:
>
> http://www.paulgraham.com/avg.html
> http://www.paulgraham.com/road.html
>
> I'm not necessarily convinced that the world is going to an ASP model
> of business. Still, there is one application that I would like to
> try that might work as a web app when I am comfortable programming in
> Lisp.
>
> My Debian box is running Apache 1.3.x and I've installed CMUCL. I
> put up the README file for cl-modlisp here:
>
> http://www.david-steuber.com/~david/modlisp-readme.html
>
> just in case no one knows what I'm asking about.
>
> I haven't tested the install yet.
>
> One thing I am curious about (and this is an issue for any webapp) is
> dealing with the back button on browsers in stateful applications.
> I don't think that is an issue I've ever solved to my satisfaction.
>
> I'm also interested in what sort of power and flexibility I would
> have available to me having a Lisp running that can dole out HTML via
> Apache. It seems to me like there are a lot of interesting
> possibilities.
>
From: Edi Weitz
Subject: Re: Has anyone done anything interesting with cl-modlisp?
Date:
Message-ID: <m3ad37dl41.fsf@bird.agharta.de>
On Wed, 25 Feb 2004 13:37:39 -0500, Marco Antoniotti <·······@cs.nyu.edu> wrote:
> We have been playing around with it and it works nicely.
> Incidentally we fixed it for Apache 2.0 DESPITE the difficulties of
> figuring out some mess with the APR library.
Why don't you release the 2.0 version?
Edi.
From: Marc Battyani
Subject: Re: Has anyone done anything interesting with cl-modlisp?
Date:
Message-ID: <c1iump$a42@library1.airnews.net>
"Edi Weitz" <···@agharta.de> wrote :
> On Wed, 25 Feb 2004 13:37:39 -0500, Marco Antoniotti <·······@cs.nyu.edu>
wrote:
>
> > We have been playing around with it and it works nicely.
> > Incidentally we fixed it for Apache 2.0 DESPITE the difficulties of
> > figuring out some mess with the APR library.
>
> Why don't you release the 2.0 version?
Edi is right. You should have send the fixes to me so that I can release it
for everybody.
Marc
From: Marco Antoniotti
Subject: Re: Has anyone done anything interesting with cl-modlisp?
Date:
Message-ID: <etm%b.55$IJ5.18132@typhoon.nyu.edu>
Marc Battyani wrote:
> "Edi Weitz" <···@agharta.de> wrote :
>
>>On Wed, 25 Feb 2004 13:37:39 -0500, Marco Antoniotti <·······@cs.nyu.edu>
>
> wrote:
>
>>>We have been playing around with it and it works nicely.
>>>Incidentally we fixed it for Apache 2.0 DESPITE the difficulties of
>>>figuring out some mess with the APR library.
>>
>>Why don't you release the 2.0 version?
>
>
> Edi is right. You should have send the fixes to me so that I can release it
> for everybody.
>
We did send you the fixes. I am pretty sure we did. (Let me double check)
--
Marco
From: Marco Antoniotti
Subject: Re: Has anyone done anything interesting with cl-modlisp?
Date:
Message-ID: <Qrm%b.54$IJ5.18132@typhoon.nyu.edu>
Edi Weitz wrote:
> On Wed, 25 Feb 2004 13:37:39 -0500, Marco Antoniotti <·······@cs.nyu.edu> wrote:
>
>
>>We have been playing around with it and it works nicely.
>>Incidentally we fixed it for Apache 2.0 DESPITE the difficulties of
>>figuring out some mess with the APR library.
>
>
> Why don't you release the 2.0 version?
Because it is up to Marc Battyani to do so. We just sent him the error
reports and the changes we had to implement. On top of that, I am not
sure I understand all the code.
The main issue was in the unintelligible way Apache 2.x libraries name
their functions (meaning, we had no time to figure out what combination
of versions we had to use.) The mod_lisp 2.0 code we got was using
`apr_socket_send', which turned out to be `apr_send' in the versions of
Apache 2.x we got (namely those packaged by Ximian via Red Carpet).
The rest was minor glitches.
Cheers
--
Marco