Hi everybody.
I'm a computer enthusiast I guess you could call me, and I also run a
small business and of course we use computers in it.
I have been using Linux for personal computing for some while, and
I've now made the decision to dump M$ at the office and go open
source. I think I've got open source alternatives to just about
everything we're using, except for one proprietary program which is
essentially a database application.
I am interested in exploring the feasiblity of having a replacement
application programmed in lisp. The new application need not be some
much a duplication of the existing program, as such. My main concern
is to be able to continue to use the data and retain such features of
the existing application that suited our needs.
I have never had any custom programming like this done. I welcome all
suggestions on how I should go about it and what the costs of
something like this are likely to be. Also welcome are opinions as to
whether lisp is a suitable language for the job and the pros and cons
of working in it. One reason lisp comes to mind is that I can
envision the entire application working in a gnue/emacs environment.
I would expect to have the application developed under the GNU
license. I do think it is commercially viable, as the target industry
is not likely to have the know-how or inclination to tinker compile
and configure, and there is probably some potential for profit in
terms of moving other businesses to open source.
Well, I know this is a big topic so I won't make it any bigger.
Thanks for any and all suggestions, comments, constructive criticism
etc.
MGO
"MGO" <···@ayesha.org> wrote in message ·································@posting.google.com...
> Hi everybody.
>
Advice in no particular order.
> I'm a computer enthusiast I guess you could call me, and I also run a
> small business and of course we use computers in it.
>
Are you wanting to do this because you are an enthusiast or is this
a business decision (ie will it save money, improve productivity, reduce
costs, get more business)?
> I have been using Linux for personal computing for some while, and
> I've now made the decision to dump M$ at the office and go open
> source. I think I've got open source alternatives to just about
> everything we're using, except for one proprietary program which is
> essentially a database application.
>
> I am interested in exploring the feasiblity of having a replacement
> application programmed in lisp. The new application need not be some
> much a duplication of the existing program, as such. My main concern
> is to be able to continue to use the data and retain such features of
> the existing application that suited our needs.
>
> I have never had any custom programming like this done. I welcome all
> suggestions on how I should go about it and what the costs of
> something like this are likely to be. Also welcome are opinions as to
> whether lisp is a suitable language for the job and the pros and cons
> of working in it. One reason lisp comes to mind is that I can
> envision the entire application working in a gnue/emacs environment.
>
Lisp is almost always a suitable choice, after all this is c.l.l.
The costs are your time, the money you could be making applying
yourself to other aspects of the business, documentation, the costs of your employees
learning the new system, migration time and probably some variable costs
of maintaining the system. This cost is weighed off against possible increased
revenue. Estimate the number of hours/days it will take, risk/benefit
analysis, all of that business stuff. Since it sounds like you are the boss
I would probably suggest that you get an employee to work on it.
You have not really said what the app does, just that it is a DB app.
Perhaps you could say more about the app and what Win app it is
replacing.
> I would expect to have the application developed under the GNU
> license. I do think it is commercially viable, as the target industry
> is not likely to have the know-how or inclination to tinker compile
> and configure, and there is probably some potential for profit in
> terms of moving other businesses to open source.
>
> Well, I know this is a big topic so I won't make it any bigger.
>
> Thanks for any and all suggestions, comments, constructive criticism
> etc.
Do you know Lisp? It sounds like you know some Emacs Lisp, anything else?
Wade
"Wade Humeniuk" <····@nospam.nowhere> wrote in message news:<·····················@news1.telusplanet.net>...
> "MGO" <···@ayesha.org> wrote in message ·································@posting.google.com...
> > Hi everybody.
> >
>
> Advice in no particular order.
oops, I guess I wasn't very clear....
I want to pay someone to do the programming for me. Since I've never
done this before, I don't have any idea how to go about it or what it
might cost (i.e., what kind of fees do programmers charge?).
I figured this was a good place to ask these questions.
Thanks again,
MGO
> I want to pay someone to do the programming for me. Since I've never
> done this before, I don't have any idea how to go about it or what it
> might cost (i.e., what kind of fees do programmers charge?).
Take a look at the Franz "Lisp Community Resume Bank"
http://www.franz.com/careers/resumes/.
See also http://alu.cliki.net/Consultant but please heed the
disclaimer at the top of the page.
I have helf a feeling there was somewhere else too, but I cannot put
my finger on it right now.
The first stage in any consultancy is defining your requirements. Take
a look at http://www.ravenbrook.com/services/sem/ to see what I
mean. Then print off and read "Product Quality through Change
Management" http://www.ravenbrook.com/doc/1999/05/20/pqtcm/. Don't
skip this step.
Costs will vary, and you'll have to negotiate with the consultant(s)
you're sizing up. As in real life (ever try finding a plumber to do a
decent job for you?), the hourly rate isn't necessarily a guide to
either the total price or the chances that the end results will do
anything that you wanted them to do.
- nick
"MGO" <···@ayesha.org> wrote in message ································@posting.google.com...
> "Wade Humeniuk" <····@nospam.nowhere> wrote in message
news:<·····················@news1.telusplanet.net>...
> > "MGO" <···@ayesha.org> wrote in message ·································@posting.google.com...
> > > Hi everybody.
> > >
> >
> > Advice in no particular order.
>
> oops, I guess I wasn't very clear....
>
> I want to pay someone to do the programming for me. Since I've never
> done this before, I don't have any idea how to go about it or what it
> might cost (i.e., what kind of fees do programmers charge?).
>
Write a specification of what you want. It does not have to be big,
but it should specify how one knows the project is finished. Have
some sort of written contract to insure that you will pay and the programmer
will deliver. Decide on when you need it. Decide if you need someone
"in-person" to do the job or can you have someone do it over the Internet.
Gather a few proposals, get some fees (expect anywhere from $40-$100 US per hour),
then someone(s) you can work with and go from there.
Wade
> I figured this was a good place to ask these questions.
>
> Thanks again,
>
> MGO
Wade Humeniuk <····@nospam.nowhere> wrote:
> "MGO" <···@ayesha.org> wrote in message .
> > "Wade Humeniuk" <····@nospam.nowhere> wrote in message
> > > "MGO" <···@ayesha.org> wrote in message
> > > > Hi everybody.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Advice in no particular order.
> >
> > oops, I guess I wasn't very clear....
> >
> > I want to pay someone to do the programming for me. Since I've never
> > done this before, I don't have any idea how to go about it or what it
> > might cost (i.e., what kind of fees do programmers charge?).
> >
>
> Write a specification of what you want. It does not have to be big,
> but it should specify how one knows the project is finished. Have
> some sort of written contract to insure that you will pay and the programmer
> will deliver. Decide on when you need it. Decide if you need someone
> "in-person" to do the job or can you have someone do it over the Internet.
> Gather a few proposals, get some fees (expect anywhere from $40-$100 US per
> hour),
Is that accurate? Those seem kind of low, unless it's a fairly long
term project. I charge $60-80/hr. for graphics work and scripting,
though I'd probably halve that for a full-time project of a month or
more if I didn't also have a business to run. I'd expect that a
serious developer would get more than this. Admittedly I don't do all
that much work on those terms, so I haven't worried about adjusting to
the economic environment.
Has it really decimated salaries that badly? I was under the impression
that developers capable of seeing a whole project through like that,
typically made six-figures or close, even in the boondocks. Way off?
Michael
Michael Sullivan wrote:
>>Write a specification of what you want. It does not have to be big,
>>but it should specify how one knows the project is finished. Have
>>some sort of written contract to insure that you will pay and the programmer
>>will deliver. Decide on when you need it. Decide if you need someone
>>"in-person" to do the job or can you have someone do it over the Internet.
>>Gather a few proposals, get some fees (expect anywhere from $40-$100 US per
>>hour),
>
>
> Is that accurate? Those seem kind of low, unless it's a fairly long
> term project. I charge $60-80/hr. for graphics work and scripting,
> though I'd probably halve that for a full-time project of a month or
> more if I didn't also have a business to run. I'd expect that a
> serious developer would get more than this. Admittedly I don't do all
> that much work on those terms, so I haven't worried about adjusting to
> the economic environment.
>
> Has it really decimated salaries that badly? I was under the impression
> that developers capable of seeing a whole project through like that,
> typically made six-figures or close, even in the boondocks. Way off?
No, I do not think you are way off. I increased the standard deviation of
my answer to play it safe. If you work for yourself under contract there all
kinds of other costs, computer(s), internet connection, tools, health insurance,
retirement. $60-$80 is not greedy in the least, in fact its a little low
for someone who is a great programmer. The rates seem to depend more
on the type of work than the quality of the people.
Wade
···@ayesha.org (MGO) writes:
> "Wade Humeniuk" <····@nospam.nowhere> wrote in message news:<·····················@news1.telusplanet.net>...
> > "MGO" <···@ayesha.org> wrote in message ·································@posting.google.com...
> > > Hi everybody.
> > >
> >
> > Advice in no particular order.
>
> oops, I guess I wasn't very clear....
>
> I want to pay someone to do the programming for me. Since I've never
> done this before, I don't have any idea how to go about it or what it
> might cost (i.e., what kind of fees do programmers charge?).
>
> I figured this was a good place to ask these questions.
Where are you geographically? Since it sounds like you're requirements
are still fairly open, you might get a good result by hiring a
programmer to come talk with you, write *something* that will be of
some immediate use to you. If that works out well (you like working
with them and the software they write does what you want) pick another
something and repeat. (This approach is well suited to implementing in
Lisp since it's a fairly dynamic language and development environment
and thus is well suited to this kind of flexible, iterative
development.)
You could, of course try this approach with a developer working
remotely but the more closely you can work with the developer the
better your chances of getting software that you actually like. (I
certainly would be much more interested in doing this kind of work for
someone I could meet with in person on a regular basis.)
-Peter
--
Peter Seibel ·····@javamonkey.com
Lisp is the red pill. -- John Fraser, comp.lang.lisp
Peter Seibel <·····@javamonkey.com> wrote in message news:<··············@javamonkey.com>...
> ···@ayesha.org (MGO) writes:
>
> > "Wade Humeniuk" <····@nospam.nowhere> wrote in message news:<·····················@news1.telusplanet.net>...
> > > "MGO" <···@ayesha.org> wrote in message ·································@posting.google.com...
> > > > Hi everybody.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Advice in no particular order.
> >
> > oops, I guess I wasn't very clear....
> >
> > I want to pay someone to do the programming for me. Since I've never
> > done this before, I don't have any idea how to go about it or what it
> > might cost (i.e., what kind of fees do programmers charge?).
> >
> > I figured this was a good place to ask these questions.
>
> Where are you geographically? Since it sounds like you're requirements
> are still fairly open, you might get a good result by hiring a
> programmer to come talk with you, write *something* that will be of
> some immediate use to you. If that works out well (you like working
> with them and the software they write does what you want) pick another
> something and repeat. (This approach is well suited to implementing in
> Lisp since it's a fairly dynamic language and development environment
> and thus is well suited to this kind of flexible, iterative
> development.)
>
> You could, of course try this approach with a developer working
> remotely but the more closely you can work with the developer the
> better your chances of getting software that you actually like. (I
> certainly would be much more interested in doing this kind of work for
> someone I could meet with in person on a regular basis.)
>
> -Peter
I think your approach makes perfect sense.
I'm in NYC. I gather you're on the West Coast. That's unfortunate.
Thanks for the good ideas, from all who responded.
MGO
···@ayesha.org (MGO) writes:
> Peter Seibel <·····@javamonkey.com> wrote in message news:<··············@javamonkey.com>...
> > ···@ayesha.org (MGO) writes:
> >
> > > "Wade Humeniuk" <····@nospam.nowhere> wrote in message news:<·····················@news1.telusplanet.net>...
> > > > "MGO" <···@ayesha.org> wrote in message ·································@posting.google.com...
> > > > > Hi everybody.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Advice in no particular order.
> > >
> > > oops, I guess I wasn't very clear....
> > >
> > > I want to pay someone to do the programming for me. Since I've never
> > > done this before, I don't have any idea how to go about it or what it
> > > might cost (i.e., what kind of fees do programmers charge?).
> > >
> > > I figured this was a good place to ask these questions.
> >
> > Where are you geographically? Since it sounds like you're requirements
> > are still fairly open, you might get a good result by hiring a
> > programmer to come talk with you, write *something* that will be of
> > some immediate use to you. If that works out well (you like working
> > with them and the software they write does what you want) pick another
> > something and repeat. (This approach is well suited to implementing in
> > Lisp since it's a fairly dynamic language and development environment
> > and thus is well suited to this kind of flexible, iterative
> > development.)
> >
> > You could, of course try this approach with a developer working
> > remotely but the more closely you can work with the developer the
> > better your chances of getting software that you actually like. (I
> > certainly would be much more interested in doing this kind of work for
> > someone I could meet with in person on a regular basis.)
> >
> > -Peter
>
> I think your approach makes perfect sense.
>
> I'm in NYC. I gather you're on the West Coast. That's unfortunate.
>
> Thanks for the good ideas, from all who responded.
>
> MGO
go here and pick anyone but me:
http://www.alphageeksinc.com/cgi-bin/lisp.cgi?LispConsultants
it is the consultants page from lispnyc(www.lispnyc.org)
marc
ps nyc area lispers it is free to get a listing, hint hint.
marc