I have the impression that the number of messages posted in comp.lang.lisp is
really increasing.
Anybody has stats on this for the past years ?
Just curious...
Marc
In article <··········@library1.airnews.net>,
Marc Battyani <·············@fractalconcept.com> wrote:
>I have the impression that the number of messages posted in comp.lang.lisp is
>really increasing.
>Anybody has stats on this for the past years ?
>Just curious...
I think there's a weekly "statistics for comp.lang.lisp" posting. You
should be able to find them all at groups.google.com.
--
Barry Margolin, ··············@level3.com
Level(3), Woburn, MA
*** DON'T SEND TECHNICAL QUESTIONS DIRECTLY TO ME, post them to newsgroups.
Please DON'T copy followups to me -- I'll assume it wasn't posted to the group.
Barry Margolin <··············@level3.com> writes:
> In article <··········@library1.airnews.net>,
> Marc Battyani <·············@fractalconcept.com> wrote:
> >I have the impression that the number of messages posted in
> >comp.lang.lisp is really increasing. Anybody has stats on this for
> >the past years ? Just curious...
> I think there's a weekly "statistics for comp.lang.lisp" posting.
> You should be able to find them all at groups.google.com.
IIRC these weekly postings didn't start before 2002.
Admittedly, this is not very scientific but I asked Google Groups
about the number of messages posted to comp.lang.lisp between Jan 1
and May 31 containing the word "Lisp" and got these results:
2003 - 10,100
2002 - 10,900
2001 - 6,290
2000 - 6,120
1999 - 4,350
1998 - 2,080
1997 - 4,030
1996 - 1,190
1995 - 1,460
1994 - 1,270
1993 - 1,320
1992 - 1,040
1991 - 870
1990 - 594
1989 - 528
1988 - 278
1987 - 207
Other languages:
comp.lang.scheme, word "Scheme"
2003 - 2,660
2002 - 3,110
2001 - 2,300
2000 - 2,380
1999 - 871
comp.lang.smalltalk, word "Smalltalk"
2003 - 4,710
2002 - 5,240
2001 - 5,580
2000 - 8,140
1999 - 7,030
comp.lang.fortran, word "Fortran"
2003 - 6,170
2002 - 6,280
2001 - 5,540
2000 - 5,820
1999 - 5,720
comp.lang.java, word "Java"
2003 - 4,880
2002 - 5,650
2001 - 4,400
2000 - 2,180
1999 - 2,080
1998 - 2,700
comp.lang.perl.misc, word "Perl"
2003 - 15,500
2002 - 113,000
2001 - 51,000
2000 - 29,900
1999 - 20,200
1998 - 16,900
comp.lang.ruby, word "Ruby"
2003 - 11,200
2002 - 11,400
2001 - 7,630
2000 - 204
comp.lang.tcl, word "TCL"
2003 - 9,470
2002 - 101,000
2001 - 26,300
2000 - 30,300
1999 - 22,400
[I don't know what to make of the "decline" of Perl and TCL - any
ideas? I first thought this might be some kind of Google delay for
large newsgroups but they seem to have newly posted messages in
comp.lang.perl.misc as fast as in comp.lang.lisp.]
Cheers,
Edi.
Edi Weitz <···@agharta.de> writes:
> comp.lang.perl.misc, word "Perl"
>
> 2003 - 15,500
> 2002 - 113,000
> 2001 - 51,000
> 2000 - 29,900
> 1999 - 20,200
> 1998 - 16,900
> [I don't know what to make of the "decline" of Perl and TCL - any
> ideas? I first thought this might be some kind of Google delay for
> large newsgroups but they seem to have newly posted messages in
> comp.lang.perl.misc as fast as in comp.lang.lisp.]
Well, for Perl, it's probably less of a decline, and more of a spike
in 2001-2. Wasn't that when they were making tons of noise about
redesigning the language? I think they made a fair amount of noise
about it in 2001, too.
--
/|_ .-----------------------.
,' .\ / | No to Imperialist war |
,--' _,' | Wage class war! |
/ / `-----------------------'
( -. |
| ) |
(`-. '--.)
`. )----'
···@famine.OCF.Berkeley.EDU (Thomas F. Burdick) writes:
> Edi Weitz <···@agharta.de> writes:
>
> > comp.lang.perl.misc, word "Perl"
> >
> > 2003 - 15,500
> > 2002 - 113,000
> > 2001 - 51,000
> > 2000 - 29,900
> > 1999 - 20,200
> > 1998 - 16,900
>
> > [I don't know what to make of the "decline" of Perl and TCL - any
> > ideas? I first thought this might be some kind of Google delay for
> > large newsgroups but they seem to have newly posted messages in
> > comp.lang.perl.misc as fast as in comp.lang.lisp.]
>
> Well, for Perl, it's probably less of a decline, and more of a spike
> in 2001-2. Wasn't that when they were making tons of noise about
> redesigning the language? I think they made a fair amount of noise
> about it in 2001, too.
And, funnily enough, a significant percentage of the posts in
comp.lang.lisp too concerns redesigning the language.
:-)
Bj�rn
I wonder if it's possible to collect the data necessary to calculate the
ratios of the number of posts to comp.lang.perl to the amount of new
Perl code, and the number of posts to comp.lang.lisp to the amount of
new Lisp code, or especially new publically-available code.
Bj�rn Lindberg wrote:
> ···@famine.OCF.Berkeley.EDU (Thomas F. Burdick) writes:
>
>
>>Edi Weitz <···@agharta.de> writes:
>>
>>
>>>comp.lang.perl.misc, word "Perl"
>>>
>>> 2003 - 15,500
>>> 2002 - 113,000
>>> 2001 - 51,000
>>> 2000 - 29,900
>>> 1999 - 20,200
>>> 1998 - 16,900
>>
>>>[I don't know what to make of the "decline" of Perl and TCL - any
>>>ideas? I first thought this might be some kind of Google delay for
>>>large newsgroups but they seem to have newly posted messages in
>>>comp.lang.perl.misc as fast as in comp.lang.lisp.]
>>
>>Well, for Perl, it's probably less of a decline, and more of a spike
>>in 2001-2. Wasn't that when they were making tons of noise about
>>redesigning the language? I think they made a fair amount of noise
>>about it in 2001, too.
>
>
> And, funnily enough, a significant percentage of the posts in
> comp.lang.lisp too concerns redesigning the language.
>
> :-)
>
>
> Bj�rn
Jeff Caldwell <·····@yahoo.com> writes:
> I wonder if it's possible to collect the data necessary to calculate
> the ratios of the number of posts to comp.lang.perl to the amount of
> new Perl code, and the number of posts to comp.lang.lisp to the amount
> of new Lisp code, or especially new publically-available code.
I wonder if it's wise.
First, it's error-prone. Even if it makes numbers you like, it could be
rightly criticized by others as meaningless and/or subject to interpretation.
Second, it's change-prone. Even if it favors you now, it could change.
Are you going to continue to maintain the tool if its answer is not
favorable?
Third, it's manipulation-prone. Once you publish metrics like this,
people become conscious of them and try to manipulate them.
I think doing the low-tech thing is cute as an ad hoc way of
instantaneously answering a question, and might provide a smile if
things were looking good for the community, but I'd rather see community
energy spent on something more meaningful.
Just my opinion.
Edi Weitz <···@agharta.de> wrote:
> [I don't know what to make of the "decline" of Perl and TCL - any
> ideas? I first thought this might be some kind of Google delay for
> large newsgroups but they seem to have newly posted messages in
> comp.lang.perl.misc as fast as in comp.lang.lisp.]
Have either of those been through a reorg? That would be the most
obvious explanation (the original group still has traffic, but much
less). 100K messages in 150 days is a *very* high traffic newsgroup.
If I were a regular of a technical newsgroup with that much traffic, I'd
be looking for ways to split it up.
Now that I say that -- I just took a look at the newsgroups list and
can't really find evidence of a split. Maybe it represents a decline of
usenet as related to those languages? A bunch of folks moving to
mailing lists or web forums? I also notice that comp.lang.tcl looks
pretty stable until last year when they suddenly got 4 times as many
messages -- a massive floating flamewar perhaps? Attack? Which them
proceeded to drive many of the posters to some other medium before
finally dying out?
I can't believe that the actual discussion of perl and tcl has droppeed
off *that* dramatically in the last year.
I would also note that the google archive is not complete, since lots of
people x-no-archive, and it gets downright spotty as you go back before
1995-6 or so (when dejanews started archiving full time), so any results
from before then aren't a good indicator at all. (I occasionally hit
the "most frequent poster" lists when I was in college in 88-90, but
very little of my stuff from that period is in the google archives --
Praise God!).
Michael
·······@bcect.com (Michael Sullivan) writes:
> I can't believe that the actual discussion of perl and tcl has droppeed
> off *that* dramatically in the last year.
Perhaps since these are web-programming languages, they have web sites that
they are using for their discussions now in place of newsgroups. ;)
·······@bcect.com (Michael Sullivan) writes:
> Have either of those been through a reorg? That would be the most
> obvious explanation (the original group still has traffic, but much
> less). 100K messages in 150 days is a *very* high traffic
> newsgroup.
The *obvious* explaination is provided by Emacs Lisp:
(/ 100000 150) -> 666
They have been possesed by an unholy spirit. Conversion to Lisp will
exorcise their hacking souls. alt.religion.lisp, anyone?
George
"Edi Weitz" <···@agharta.de> wrote in message ···················@bird.agharta.de...
>
> [I don't know what to make of the "decline" of Perl and TCL - any
> ideas?
You aren't sampling the entire year of 2003.
In article <······················@rwcrnsc54>,
Joe Marshall <·············@attbi.com> wrote:
>
>"Edi Weitz" <···@agharta.de> wrote in message
>···················@bird.agharta.de...
>>
>> [I don't know what to make of the "decline" of Perl and TCL - any
>> ideas?
>
>You aren't sampling the entire year of 2003.
But even though the year is almost half over, the perl group has less than
1/3 as many posts as last year. Assuming the rate continues, the total
will only be about 60%, which is a significant decline.
What I wonder is why he filtered his searches to only include messages
containing the group's language (e.g. comp.lang.scheme messages containing
"Scheme"). Was this to weed out spam, ad hominem tangents, and off-topic
threads? But aren't the ad hominems and OT threads contributing
significantly to the the volume that the OP presumably noticed? Several of
the messages in this thread (including this one) wouldn't be included in
his statistics.
--
Barry Margolin, ··············@level3.com
Level(3), Woburn, MA
*** DON'T SEND TECHNICAL QUESTIONS DIRECTLY TO ME, post them to newsgroups.
Please DON'T copy followups to me -- I'll assume it wasn't posted to the group.
Barry Margolin <··············@level3.com> writes:
> >You aren't sampling the entire year of 2003.
>
> But even though the year is almost half over, the perl group has
> less than 1/3 as many posts as last year. Assuming the rate
> continues, the total will only be about 60%, which is a significant
> decline.
See my other post.
> What I wonder is why he filtered his searches to only include
> messages containing the group's language (e.g. comp.lang.scheme
> messages containing "Scheme").
It's really simple: Google doesn't allow a query like "Give me all the
messages posted between 2003-01-01 and 2003-05-31" - you have to
include at least one other criterion. I thought that using the name of
the language would be a good one because I'm pretty sure Google also
scans the headers.
> Several of the messages in this thread (including this one) wouldn't
> be included in his statistics.
Are you sure? Search Google Groups for
"author:margolin interesting rant lisp"
and you'll find exactly one message which does NOT contain the word
Lisp in its body. However, it was posted to compl.lang.lisp.
<http://groups.google.com/groups?q=author%3Amargolin+interesting+rant+lisp>
But, playing around a little bit more revealed this (all data for the
same period as above):
Messages posted to comp.lang.lisp containing the word "Lisp":
10,100
Messages posted to comp.lang.lisp containing the word "nztghd":
0
Messages posted to comp.lang.lisp NOT containing the word "nztghd":
8,000
Hmmm...
Maybe Google isn't the best source for this kind of analysis... :)
Edi.
In article <··············@bird.agharta.de>, ···@agharta.de wrote:
> Messages posted to comp.lang.lisp containing the word "Lisp":
>
> 10,100
>
> Messages posted to comp.lang.lisp containing the word "nztghd":
>
> 0
>
> Messages posted to comp.lang.lisp NOT containing the word "nztghd":
>
> 8,000
>
> Hmmm...
There's a bug in Google's "Return only messages from the newsgroup"
option. It gets confused by cross-posting.
When you search for messages in comp.lang.lisp between 1/1/03 and 5/31/03
containing "lang" you get 11,000 results.
The fifth result (and presumably about 3000 others) is from comp.lang.c++
E.
Edi Weitz wrote:
> 10,100
>
> Messages posted to comp.lang.lisp containing the word "nztghd":
>
> 0
>
> Messages posted to comp.lang.lisp NOT containing the word "nztghd":
>
> 8,000
>
> Hmmm...
>
> Maybe Google isn't the best source for this kind of analysis... :)
Have you tried submitting each query several times?
Sometimes you get different answers. IThe answer depends
on the machine at google that handles your search request.
--
Jens Axel S�gaard
"Edi Weitz" <···@agharta.de> wrote in message
···················@bird.agharta.de...
> Barry Margolin <··············@level3.com> writes:
> Messages posted to comp.lang.lisp containing the word "nztghd":
>
> 0
>
Well, I did the same search just now and found this one:
··············@bird.agharta.de from Edi Weitz
Hey.... wait a minute.... ;)
--
Coby Beck
(remove #\Space "coby 101 @ bigpond . com")
From: David Steuber
Subject: Re: number of messages posted in comp.lang.lisp
Date:
Message-ID: <877k7wt4tt.fsf@verizon.net>
"Coby Beck" <·····@mercury.bc.ca> writes:
> "Edi Weitz" <···@agharta.de> wrote in message
> ···················@bird.agharta.de...
> > Barry Margolin <··············@level3.com> writes:
>
> > Messages posted to comp.lang.lisp containing the word "nztghd":
> >
> > 0
> >
>
> Well, I did the same search just now and found this one:
> ··············@bird.agharta.de from Edi Weitz
I think we simply ran into a case of a large value for 8000.
--
One Editor to rule them all. One Editor to find them,
One Editor to bring them all and in the darkness bind them.
"Joe Marshall" <·············@attbi.com> writes:
> You aren't sampling the entire year of 2003.
Yes, but I wasn't sampling entire years for 1999 to 2002 either. I wrote:
> about the number of messages posted [...] between Jan 1 and May 31
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I might be dumb but I'm not _that_ dumb (well, most of the time).
Edi.
"Edi Weitz" <···@agharta.de> wrote in message ···················@bird.agharta.de...
> "Joe Marshall" <·············@attbi.com> writes:
>
> > You aren't sampling the entire year of 2003.
>
> Yes, but I wasn't sampling entire years for 1999 to 2002 either. I wrote:
>
> > about the number of messages posted [...] between Jan 1 and May 31
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> I might be dumb but I'm not _that_ dumb (well, most of the time).
I would have been. Sorry.
Edi Weitz <···@agharta.de> writes:
> Barry Margolin <··············@level3.com> writes:
>
> > In article <··········@library1.airnews.net>,
> > Marc Battyani <·············@fractalconcept.com> wrote:
> > >I have the impression that the number of messages posted in
> > >comp.lang.lisp is really increasing. Anybody has stats on this for
> > >the past years ? Just curious...
>
> > I think there's a weekly "statistics for comp.lang.lisp" posting.
> > You should be able to find them all at groups.google.com.
>
> IIRC these weekly postings didn't start before 2002.
>
> Admittedly, this is not very scientific but I asked Google Groups
> about the number of messages posted to comp.lang.lisp between Jan 1
> and May 31 containing the word "Lisp" and got these results:
How did you do that?
Thanks
marc
Marc Spitzer <········@optonline.net> writes:
> Edi Weitz <···@agharta.de> writes:
>
> > Admittedly, this is not very scientific but I asked Google Groups
> > about the number of messages posted to comp.lang.lisp between Jan
> > 1 and May 31 containing the word "Lisp" and got these results:
>
> How did you do that?
<http://groups.google.com/advanced_group_search>
Edi.
"Edi Weitz" <···@agharta.de> wrote
>
> > Marc Battyani <·············@fractalconcept.com> wrote:
> > >I have the impression that the number of messages posted in
> > >comp.lang.lisp is really increasing. Anybody has stats on this for
> > >the past years ? Just curious...
...
> Admittedly, this is not very scientific but I asked Google Groups
> about the number of messages posted to comp.lang.lisp between Jan 1
> and May 31 containing the word "Lisp" and got these results:
>
> 2003 - 10,100
> 2002 - 10,900
> 2001 - 6,290
> 2000 - 6,120
> 1999 - 4,350
> 1998 - 2,080
> 1997 - 4,030
> 1996 - 1,190
> 1995 - 1,460
> 1994 - 1,270
> 1993 - 1,320
> 1992 - 1,040
> 1991 - 870
> 1990 - 594
> 1989 - 528
> 1988 - 278
> 1987 - 207
Very interesting.
I tried also but for Jan/may 2003 I get 8000 messages for Lisp and 35400 for
Java.
group:comp.lang.lisp.* and group:comp.lang.java.* without any other word.
The interesting point is the trend which is clearly increasing.
> Other languages:
[...]
> [I don't know what to make of the "decline" of Perl and TCL - any
> ideas? I first thought this might be some kind of Google delay for
> large newsgroups but they seem to have newly posted messages in
> comp.lang.perl.misc as fast as in comp.lang.lisp.]
Perl is going to loose even more users now that Lisp has faster compatible
rexep...
Marc
From: Peter Seibel
Subject: Re: number of messages posted in comp.lang.lisp
Date:
Message-ID: <m31xy82nym.fsf@javamonkey.com>
"Marc Battyani" <·············@fractalconcept.com> writes:
> Very interesting. I tried also but for Jan/may 2003 I get 8000
> messages for Lisp and 35400 for Java. group:comp.lang.lisp.* and
> group:comp.lang.java.* without any other word.
After a bit of poking around I discovered that you get the same number
(8,000) if you do a search for:
a) A word that is ignored such as "the".
b) The non-existence of an extremely unlike word such as
"qqqqxxxxxyyyzzz"
c) An Advanced Search with just the group and date range filled in,
i.e. no specific word.
However in (c) you get a listing of threads rather than posts. So
possibly 8,000 is really the number of threads rather than posts.
However I also noticed these strange results. Searching with
group:comp.lang.lisp and between 2003-01-01 and 2003-05-31 these words
got the following number of posts:
lisp -> 10,100
lang -> 11,000
lang.lisp -> 11,100
comp -> 11,200
comp.lang.lisp -> 11,800
comp.lang -> 12,000
I'm not sure what to make of that. I emailed a friend who works at
Google to see if he's got any insight.
-Peter
--
Peter Seibel ·····@javamonkey.com
Lisp is the red pill. -- John Fraser, comp.lang.lisp
Peter Seibel <·····@javamonkey.com> writes:
> After a bit of poking around I discovered that you get the same
> number (8,000) if you do a search for:
>
> a) A word that is ignored such as "the".
>
> b) The non-existence of an extremely unlike word such as
> "qqqqxxxxxyyyzzz"
>
> c) An Advanced Search with just the group and date range filled in,
> i.e. no specific word.
>
> However in (c) you get a listing of threads rather than posts. So
> possibly 8,000 is really the number of threads rather than posts.
>
> However I also noticed these strange results. Searching with
> group:comp.lang.lisp and between 2003-01-01 and 2003-05-31 these
> words got the following number of posts:
>
> lisp -> 10,100
> lang -> 11,000
> lang.lisp -> 11,100
> comp -> 11,200
> comp.lang.lisp -> 11,800
> comp.lang -> 12,000
>
> I'm not sure what to make of that. I emailed a friend who works at
> Google to see if he's got any insight.
Couldn't you also ask him to provide some meaningful statistics (like,
say, c.l.l compared to three or four other newsgroups in the last five
years) so we all can stop poking around?
:)
Thanks,
Edi.
From: David Steuber
Subject: Re: number of messages posted in comp.lang.lisp
Date:
Message-ID: <871xy4t4b1.fsf@verizon.net>
"Marc Battyani" <·············@fractalconcept.com> writes:
> Perl is going to loose even more users now that Lisp has faster compatible
> rexep...
No, that is not the reason. While my sample size is small, companies
seem to want to switch from Perl to Java. I've also noticed more
websites using Python, but I don't recall any of them being corporate
sites. Even then, I only noticed because of the "Powered by Python"
logo.
Don't get me wrong. I do think interest in Lisp will grow. It's just
that Java and, lately, C# are getting rather a lot of mind share.
More than they deserve, imo.
--
One Editor to rule them all. One Editor to find them,
One Editor to bring them all and in the darkness bind them.
David Steuber <·············@verizon.net> writes:
> No, that is not the reason. While my sample size is small, companies
> seem to want to switch from Perl to Java. I've also noticed more
> websites using Python, but I don't recall any of them being corporate
> sites. Even then, I only noticed because of the "Powered by Python"
> logo.
Because that's what companies _do_ when they get bigger and end up in
the whole "programmers as interchangeable parts" thing. Sooner or
later they'll have their lunch eaten by a smaller smarter team at a
more flexible company, and the process will repeat.
(Qualification: I hear that java ides have improved to the point that
it's actually possible to use java for prototyping these days. I
suspect there's some flaw in this approach that we haven't heard yet -
like "maintaining the generated code will turn you blind" - but I
guess we should be aware that there may be smart people choosing Java
by now)
I wouldn't expect a corporate site to include a "Powered by x" logo
for any x, unless possibly it was a product that the company was
selling itself. So, how do you tell if a site is using Python?
Unless it says, or it exposes implementation details in the URLs (*.py
scripts or something) there should be no way to tell unless it breaks.
-dan
--
http://www.cliki.net/ - Link farm for free CL-on-Unix resources
From: Joe Marshall
Subject: Re: number of messages posted in comp.lang.lisp
Date:
Message-ID: <znkr6wpy.fsf@ccs.neu.edu>
Daniel Barlow <···@telent.net> writes:
> I wouldn't expect a corporate site to include a "Powered by x" logo
> for any x, unless possibly it was a product that the company was
> selling itself. So, how do you tell if a site is using Python?
Just for kicks, google hits:
`Powered by PHP' 623,000
`Powered by Ruby' 51,300
`Powered by Python' 16,500
`Powered by Perl' 11,800
`Powered by Java' 3,210
`Powered by Javascript' 633
`Powered by TCL' 320
`Powered by Smalltalk' 292
`Powered by Lisp' 163
`Powered by Ada' 63
`Powered by C#' 27
`Powered by Forth' 20
`Powered by C++' 16
From: Karl A. Krueger
Subject: Re: number of messages posted in comp.lang.lisp
Date:
Message-ID: <bc2b7e$hg6$1@baldur.whoi.edu>
Joe Marshall <···@ccs.neu.edu> wrote:
>
> Just for kicks, google hits:
>
> `Powered by PHP' 623,000
> `Powered by Ruby' 51,300
> `Powered by Python' 16,500
> `Powered by Perl' 11,800
> `Powered by Java' 3,210
> `Powered by Javascript' 633
> `Powered by TCL' 320
> `Powered by Smalltalk' 292
> `Powered by Lisp' 163
> `Powered by Ada' 63
> `Powered by C#' 27
> `Powered by Forth' 20
> `Powered by C++' 16
"Powered by Zope" 228,000
All Zope sites are Python sites. :)
--
Karl A. Krueger <········@example.edu>
Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution
Email address is spamtrapped. s/example/whoi/
"Outlook not so good." -- Magic 8-Ball Software Reviews
"Karl A. Krueger" <········@example.edu> writes:
> Joe Marshall <···@ccs.neu.edu> wrote:
> >
> > Just for kicks, google hits:
> >
> > `Powered by PHP' 623,000
> "Powered by Zope" 228,000 > All Zope sites are Python sites. :)
> > `Powered by Ruby' 51,300
> > `Powered by Python' 16,500
> > `Powered by Perl' 11,800
> > `Powered by Java' 3,210
> > `Powered by Javascript' 633
"Powered by WebObjects" 513
> > `Powered by TCL' 320
> > `Powered by Smalltalk' 292
> > `Powered by Lisp' 163
> > `Powered by Ada' 63
> > `Powered by C#' 27
> > `Powered by Forth' 20
> > `Powered by C++' 16
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Do not adjust your mind, there is a fault in reality.
From: David Steuber
Subject: Re: number of messages posted in comp.lang.lisp
Date:
Message-ID: <87llwbxfc3.fsf@verizon.net>
Daniel Barlow <···@telent.net> writes:
> Because that's what companies _do_ when they get bigger and end up in
> the whole "programmers as interchangeable parts" thing. Sooner or
> later they'll have their lunch eaten by a smaller smarter team at a
> more flexible company, and the process will repeat.
Those "interchangeable" programmers are generally not really good
programmers at all. I think corperations thrive on mediocrity.
UML is getting popular too. I wouldn't be surprised if it was because
of the pyramid-block-like nature of Java and C++. I could blather on
about my opinions of modern software engineering, but I don't have a
Phd and I am not a published guru.
My personal practice has been to use the editor as a doodle pad. I
throw away the bits that turn out to be bad ideas and refine the good
bits. I keep the behavior as localized as possible. The compile-test
part of the cycle really slows me down. Also, most people think I am
totally nuts to consider code disposable when reuse is the mantra of
the day. Why would I want to reuse bad code?
The more I look at Lisp, the more it seems to suit my programming
style. There may not be any Lisp programming jobs out there for me
now, but I am still hoping for a personal competative advantage.
Further, I am looking to make programming fun for me again. Somehow,
programming professionally in a soul-sucking corporate environment has
managed to kill the joy for me.
I want to bring back the joy and make ten Java programmers seem
unproductive.
--
One Editor to rule them all. One Editor to find them,
One Editor to bring them all and in the darkness bind them.
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David Steuber <·············@verizon.net> writes:
> Those "interchangeable" programmers are generally not really good
> programmers at all. I think corperations thrive on mediocrity.
We've done this topic (to death, probably) regularly on cll before.
While I'd agree with that personally, I'd phrase it less
confrontationally as "Corporations thrive on predictability". Beyond
a certain size it's hard work to recruit geniuses.
> UML is getting popular too. I wouldn't be surprised if it was because
UML is still popular? I remember it being presented as the Next Big
Thing three or four years ago. The only really good use of it that I
could find was to keep people with daft ideas out of my hair by asking
for the interaction diagram for whatever change they wanted to make.
> Further, I am looking to make programming fun for me again. Somehow,
> programming professionally in a soul-sucking corporate environment has
> managed to kill the joy for me.
I can sympathise with that.
- -dan
- --
http://www.cliki.net/ - Link farm for free CL-on-Unix resources
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Daniel Barlow <···@telent.net> writes:
> Because that's what companies _do_ when they get bigger and end up in
> the whole "programmers as interchangeable parts" thing. Sooner or
> later they'll have their lunch eaten by a smaller smarter team at a
> more flexible company, and the process will repeat.
The drawback for any company when someone is irreplaceable: what do you
do if they quit? If they die?
(Nevertheless, it's strange that companies pay so little attention to
actively forming and retaining high-quality teams. At least the
companies I've been involved with.)
What's a better way of doing it?
Best,
Thomas
--
Thomas Lindgren
"It's becoming popular? It must be in decline." -- Isaiah Berlin
Thomas Lindgren <···········@*****.***> writes:
> Daniel Barlow <···@telent.net> writes:
>
> > Because that's what companies _do_ when they get bigger and end up in
> > the whole "programmers as interchangeable parts" thing. Sooner or
> > later they'll have their lunch eaten by a smaller smarter team at a
> > more flexible company, and the process will repeat.
>
> The drawback for any company when someone is irreplaceable: what do you
> do if they quit? If they die?
This is the tired, foolish canard perpetuated by lazy managers.
(not (implies (not interchangeable) irreplacable))
--
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,--' _,' | Wage class war! |
/ / `-----------------------'
( -. |
| ) |
(`-. '--.)
`. )----'
···@famine.OCF.Berkeley.EDU (Thomas F. Burdick) writes:
> Thomas Lindgren <···········@*****.***> writes:
>
> > Daniel Barlow <···@telent.net> writes:
> >
> > > Because that's what companies _do_ when they get bigger and end up in
> > > the whole "programmers as interchangeable parts" thing. Sooner or
> > > later they'll have their lunch eaten by a smaller smarter team at a
> > > more flexible company, and the process will repeat.
> >
> > The drawback for any company when someone is irreplaceable: what do you
> > do if they quit? If they die?
>
> This is the tired, foolish canard perpetuated by lazy managers.
> (not (implies (not interchangeable) irreplacable))
Well, they seem fond of it; at least some of them. Alas, I suspect
your observation won't change their minds.
Best,
Thomas
--
Thomas Lindgren
"It's becoming popular? It must be in decline." -- Isaiah Berlin
Oops! ···@famine.OCF.Berkeley.EDU (Thomas F. Burdick) was seen spray-painting on a wall:
> Thomas Lindgren <···········@*****.***> writes:
>
>> Daniel Barlow <···@telent.net> writes:
>>
>> > Because that's what companies _do_ when they get bigger and end up in
>> > the whole "programmers as interchangeable parts" thing. Sooner or
>> > later they'll have their lunch eaten by a smaller smarter team at a
>> > more flexible company, and the process will repeat.
>>
>> The drawback for any company when someone is irreplaceable: what do you
>> do if they quit? If they die?
>
> This is the tired, foolish canard perpetuated by lazy managers.
> (not (implies (not interchangeable) irreplacable))
Of course, finding a GOOD Java programmer appears to be every bit as
challenging as finding a GOOD Lisp programmer.
When you need a GOOD one, they aren't interchangeable...
--
(reverse (concatenate 'string "gro.mca" ·@" "enworbbc"))
http://www.ntlug.org/~cbbrowne/lisp.html
"Some people, when confronted with a problem, think 'I know, I'll use
regular expressions.' Now they have two problems."
-- Jamie Zawinski, on comp.lang.emacs
From: Peter Seibel
Subject: Re: number of messages posted in comp.lang.lisp
Date:
Message-ID: <m3fzmhsrxw.fsf@javamonkey.com>
Christopher Browne <········@acm.org> writes:
> Oops! ···@famine.OCF.Berkeley.EDU (Thomas F. Burdick) was seen spray-painting on a wall:
> > Thomas Lindgren <···········@*****.***> writes:
> >
> >> Daniel Barlow <···@telent.net> writes:
> >>
> >> > Because that's what companies _do_ when they get bigger and end
> >> > up in the whole "programmers as interchangeable parts" thing.
> >> > Sooner or later they'll have their lunch eaten by a smaller
> >> > smarter team at a more flexible company, and the process will
> >> > repeat.
> >>
> >> The drawback for any company when someone is irreplaceable: what
> >> do you do if they quit? If they die?
> >
> > This is the tired, foolish canard perpetuated by lazy managers.
> > (not (implies (not interchangeable) irreplacable))
>
> Of course, finding a GOOD Java programmer appears to be every bit as
> challenging as finding a GOOD Lisp programmer.
>
> When you need a GOOD one, they aren't interchangeable...
I suspect you were looking at this from a different angle but wouldn't
you say that good programmers are *more* interchangable (with other
good programers). That is, if I had a really good Java programmer on
my team and they got hit by a bus, I'd rather hire a really good
{Smalltalk|Lisp|C|Perl|whatever} programmer and teach them Java than
an average programmer who already happens to know Java.
-Peter
--
Peter Seibel ·····@javamonkey.com
Lisp is the red pill. -- John Fraser, comp.lang.lisp
Quoth Peter Seibel <·····@javamonkey.com>:
> Christopher Browne <········@acm.org> writes:
>
>> Oops! ···@famine.OCF.Berkeley.EDU (Thomas F. Burdick) was seen spray-painting on a wall:
>> > Thomas Lindgren <···········@*****.***> writes:
>> >
>> >> Daniel Barlow <···@telent.net> writes:
>> >>
>> >> > Because that's what companies _do_ when they get bigger and end
>> >> > up in the whole "programmers as interchangeable parts" thing.
>> >> > Sooner or later they'll have their lunch eaten by a smaller
>> >> > smarter team at a more flexible company, and the process will
>> >> > repeat.
>> >>
>> >> The drawback for any company when someone is irreplaceable: what
>> >> do you do if they quit? If they die?
>> >
>> > This is the tired, foolish canard perpetuated by lazy managers.
>> > (not (implies (not interchangeable) irreplacable))
>>
>> Of course, finding a GOOD Java programmer appears to be every bit as
>> challenging as finding a GOOD Lisp programmer.
>>
>> When you need a GOOD one, they aren't interchangeable...
> I suspect you were looking at this from a different angle but
> wouldn't you say that good programmers are *more* interchangable
> (with other good programers). That is, if I had a really good Java
> programmer on my team and they got hit by a bus, I'd rather hire a
> really good {Smalltalk|Lisp|C|Perl|whatever} programmer and teach
> them Java than an average programmer who already happens to know
> Java.
Well, there are enough "edges" in all of these languages that there's
a fairly hefty learning curve in between having basic knowledge and
becoming truly skilled.
I suppose it fits the notion that finding a "GOOD" programmer is
challenging, irrespective of the language, and those that are good in
one thing are likely to be able to figure out other things.
--
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"Thomas Lindgren" <···········@*****.***> wrote in message
···················@localhost.localdomain...
> The drawback for any company when someone is irreplaceable: what do you
> do if they quit? If they die?
>
No one is irreplaceable. If someone dies or leaves the obvious happens,
things change and we move on. Larger companies are necessarily
more structured, thus change is preceived to be more uncontrollable
and feared.
Wade
Martha Stewart called it a Good Thing whenBarry Margolin <··············@level3.com>wrote:
> In article <··········@library1.airnews.net>,
> Marc Battyani <·············@fractalconcept.com> wrote:
>>I have the impression that the number of messages posted in comp.lang.lisp is
>>really increasing.
>>Anybody has stats on this for the past years ?
>>Just curious...
>
> I think there's a weekly "statistics for comp.lang.lisp" posting. You
> should be able to find them all at groups.google.com.
As I'm the one who has a cron script that generates them, I may well
have them archived somewhere. Come to think of it, no... They're not
archived :-(.
Google's probably a good place to go to see 'em. I only set up the
script comparatively recently, so it certainly doesn't get ancient
history.
Recent discussions have been getting so verbose that I have been
ignoring most of it. I'm sorry to say that I don't think I have
missed all that much useful knowledge from that ignoring...
--
"cbbrowne",·@","cbbrowne.com"
http://www.ntlug.org/~cbbrowne/lisp.html
Tell a man that there are 400 billion stars, and he'll believe you.
Tell him a bench has wet paint, and he has to touch it.
In article <··············@ID-125932.news.dfncis.de>,
Christopher Browne <········@acm.org> wrote:
>Recent discussions have been getting so verbose that I have been
>ignoring most of it. I'm sorry to say that I don't think I have
>missed all that much useful knowledge from that ignoring...
Me too. As soon as a thread flies off onto a boring tangent, I stop
reading it. I may check it again every week or two just out of curiosity,
to see how far off course it has degenerated; I'm never disappointed.
This problem, of course, is not unique to this group. The same thing
happens regularly in comp.std.c.
--
Barry Margolin, ··············@level3.com
Level(3), Woburn, MA
*** DON'T SEND TECHNICAL QUESTIONS DIRECTLY TO ME, post them to newsgroups.
Please DON'T copy followups to me -- I'll assume it wasn't posted to the group.
Oops! Barry Margolin <··············@level3.com> was seen spray-painting on a wall:
> In article <··············@ID-125932.news.dfncis.de>,
> Christopher Browne <········@acm.org> wrote:
>>Recent discussions have been getting so verbose that I have been
>>ignoring most of it. I'm sorry to say that I don't think I have
>>missed all that much useful knowledge from that ignoring...
>
> Me too. As soon as a thread flies off onto a boring tangent, I stop
> reading it. I may check it again every week or two just out of curiosity,
> to see how far off course it has degenerated; I'm never disappointed.
Gnus has a pretty wonderful feature in doing "adaptive scoring;" after
I "d"elete enough posts without reading them due to believing them to
be likely to be uninteresting, it "magically" starts marking the
threads as read as soon as I enter the newsgroup.
I added a similar patch to the slrn news reader back in version
0.8.8.4, several years ago. Of course, as slrn is implemented in C,
manipulating scoring rules is not something you can do particularly
dynamically without either proving Greenspun's 10th or 11th rules
(either by reimplementing part of CL, badly, or by implementing some
portion of APL/INTERCAL).
--
(reverse (concatenate 'string "gro.gultn" ·@" "enworbbc"))
http://cbbrowne.com/info/emacs.html
Visualize whirled peas.