Hi there,
Lisp has a future.
I have been to the workshop on "object-oriented programming language
engineering for the post-Java era" at ECOOP yesterday. (see
http://prog.vub.ac.be/~wdmeuter/PostJava/ )
Among the presentations, there have been two that were clearly
Lisp-related (one by Matthias Hoelzl and one by me), and one was
somewhat related to Lisp (by Wolfgang De Meuter). There have been about
40 participants altogether which is quite a lot for such a workshop, and
there were several (mostly) Smalltalkers and some Lispers.
Now the really good news: The talks by Matthias and me created the wish
among some participants to hear more about Lisp, and so we organized a
spontaneous Lisp BOF in the evening in which I have talked about
metacircularity and macros. Although we haven't promoted the BOF
strongly, we have got ten participants. In other words, 25% of the
participants of that workshop have shown a desire to learn something
about Lisp, and I think this is quite a lot.
There are some ideas to organize something more official specifically
about Lisp at next year's ECOOP.
Pascal
--
Pascal Costanza University of Bonn
···············@web.de Institute of Computer Science III
http://www.pascalcostanza.de R�merstr. 164, D-53117 Bonn (Germany)
Pascal Costanza wrote:
> Hi there,
>
> Lisp has a future.
congrats on the missionary work. maybe in a few months you'll get some
citations on the survey:
http://www.cliki.net/The%20Road%20to%20Lisp%20Survey
meanwhile, chalk up another for Paul Graham: heard another "switch"
story last night at the meeting of the lisp-nyc robocup sig, from a
visitor from minnesota who signed on for the robocup effort. fell for CL
six months ago. after a long time wishing he had a C++ interpreter and
something like macros, the Paul Graham story led him to CL.
me, I am waiting for the first road to lisp entry that credits another
recent switcher. then look out.
should we start planning comp.lang.lisp subgroups? :)
--
kenny tilton
clinisys, inc
http://www.tilton-technology.com/
---------------------------------------------------------------
"Everything is a cell." -- Alan Kay
In article <················@nyc.rr.com>, Kenny Tilton
<·······@nyc.rr.com> wrote:
> should we start planning comp.lang.lisp subgroups? :)
There seems to be an immediate need for comp.lang.lisp.environmentalism ;-)
E.
···@jpl.nasa.gov (Erann Gat) writes:
> In article <················@nyc.rr.com>, Kenny Tilton
> <·······@nyc.rr.com> wrote:
>
> > should we start planning comp.lang.lisp subgroups? :)
>
> There seems to be an immediate need for comp.lang.lisp.environmentalism ;-)
Are garbage collectors environmentally friendly? They do recycle,
don't they?
--
One Editor to rule them all. One Editor to find them,
One Editor to bring them all and in the darkness bind them.
(do ((a 1 b) (b 1 (+ a b))) (nil a) (print a))
David Steuber <·············@verizon.net> writes:
> ···@jpl.nasa.gov (Erann Gat) writes:
>
> > In article <················@nyc.rr.com>, Kenny Tilton wrote:
> >
> > > should we start planning comp.lang.lisp subgroups? :)
> >
> > There seems to be an immediate need for comp.lang.lisp.environmentalism ;-)
>
> Are garbage collectors environmentally friendly? They do recycle,
> don't they?
Only the mark and sweep variety. Stop and copy is incredibly wasteful
of resources and contributes to data sprawl.
--
Thomas A. Russ, USC/Information Sciences Institute
In article <·············@msunews.cl.msu.edu>,
Ed Symanzik <···@msu.edu> wrote:
>Kenny Tilton wrote:
>
>> should we start planning comp.lang.lisp subgroups? :)
>
>comp.lang.lisp.car
>comp.lang.lisp.cadr
>comp.lang.lisp.caddr
>
A random thought: Has anyone ever added a lisp word
to the name of their child?
My youngest is 5 and I have no intention of changing
diapers again in my life, so I'm out going forwards.
(Not to mention the fact that my spouse would surely
veto the idea or demand a concession, such as a
greenhouse, that I'm unwilling to grant.)
Assuming the answer to my question is "no," which
lisp terms are most appropriate for a child's middle
name?
ABORT is in bad taste.
ASH would be a surreptious choice, as would ED, MAX, and REM.
BUTLAST would likely doom the child to years of therapy.
GENSYM and TERPRI are futuristic in a 1950s sort of way.
GETHASH would raise eyebrows everywhere but Amsterdam.
LOGIOR suggests East European royalty.
MOST-POSITIVE-FIXNUM has an optimistic ring.
NSUBST is certainly out.
PAIRLIS rolls off the tongue.
Okay, that killed twenty minutes. Back to work.
sv0f <····@vanderbilt.edu> writes:
> A random thought: Has anyone ever added a lisp word to the name of
> their child?
A former colleague of mine at Uppsala changed his name from Torbjorn
Ahs into Cons T. Ahs.
Oh, here he is:
http://www.noteheads.com/noteheads/noteheads.html
Best,
Thomas
--
Thomas Lindgren
"It's becoming popular? It must be in decline." -- Isaiah Berlin
sv0f <····@vanderbilt.edu> writes:
> A random thought: Has anyone ever added a lisp word
> to the name of their child?
How about Cons T. �hs?
http://user.it.uu.se/~cons/
--
Lars Brinkhoff, Services for Unix, Linux, GCC, PDP-10, HTTP
Brinkhoff Consulting http://www.brinkhoff.se/
sv0f <····@vanderbilt.edu> writes:
> In article <·············@msunews.cl.msu.edu>,
> Ed Symanzik <···@msu.edu> wrote:
>
> A random thought: Has anyone ever added a lisp word
> to the name of their child?
>
> My youngest is 5 and I have no intention of changing
> diapers again in my life, so I'm out going forwards.
> (Not to mention the fact that my spouse would surely
> veto the idea or demand a concession, such as a
> greenhouse, that I'm unwilling to grant.)
>
> Assuming the answer to my question is "no," which
> lisp terms are most appropriate for a child's middle
> name?
>
> ABORT is in bad taste.
> ASH would be a surreptious choice, as would ED, MAX, and REM.
> BUTLAST would likely doom the child to years of therapy.
> GENSYM and TERPRI are futuristic in a 1950s sort of way.
> GETHASH would raise eyebrows everywhere but Amsterdam.
> LOGIOR suggests East European royalty.
> MOST-POSITIVE-FIXNUM has an optimistic ring.
> NSUBST is certainly out.
> PAIRLIS rolls off the tongue.
>
> Okay, that killed twenty minutes. Back to work.
I would stick with prefix notation and call the child
NULL CDR JACK
(substituting JACK with the child's current first name).
If anyone asks why you call him Jack, just say
"SYMBOL-MACROLET".
Part of the reason my son's name isNicholas Allan
is so his initials will be NAK. (I couldn't think
of an appropriate name with family ties that would
have come up as ACK). No harmful side effects seen
so far.
--
gak
In article <··························@news.vanderbilt.edu>,
sv0f <····@vanderbilt.edu> wrote:
> In article <·············@msunews.cl.msu.edu>,
> Ed Symanzik <···@msu.edu> wrote:
>
> >Kenny Tilton wrote:
> >
> >> should we start planning comp.lang.lisp subgroups? :)
> >
> >comp.lang.lisp.car
> >comp.lang.lisp.cadr
> >comp.lang.lisp.caddr
> >
>
> A random thought: Has anyone ever added a lisp word
> to the name of their child?
>
> My youngest is 5 and I have no intention of changing
> diapers again in my life, so I'm out going forwards.
> (Not to mention the fact that my spouse would surely
> veto the idea or demand a concession, such as a
> greenhouse, that I'm unwilling to grant.)
>
> Assuming the answer to my question is "no," which
> lisp terms are most appropriate for a child's middle
> name?
>
> ABORT is in bad taste.
> ASH would be a surreptious choice, as would ED, MAX, and REM.
> BUTLAST would likely doom the child to years of therapy.
> GENSYM and TERPRI are futuristic in a 1950s sort of way.
> GETHASH would raise eyebrows everywhere but Amsterdam.
> LOGIOR suggests East European royalty.
> MOST-POSITIVE-FIXNUM has an optimistic ring.
> NSUBST is certainly out.
> PAIRLIS rolls off the tongue.
>
> Okay, that killed twenty minutes. Back to work.
T
But the whole idea is silly. We are, after all, talking about a
*prefix* syntax language, not infix.
-- Bruce
Bruce Hoult <·····@hoult.org> wrote:
+---------------
| sv0f <····@vanderbilt.edu> wrote:
| > A random thought: Has anyone ever added a lisp word
| > to the name of their child?
...
| > BUTLAST would likely doom the child to years of therapy.
...
| But the whole idea is silly. We are, after all, talking about a
| *prefix* syntax language, not infix.
+---------------
With that in mind, BUTLAST might not be a bad *first* name after all,
if you were planning one having more kids [default 1] anyway... ;-}
-Rob
-----
Rob Warnock, PP-ASEL-IA <····@rpw3.org>
627 26th Avenue <URL:http://rpw3.org/>
San Mateo, CA 94403 (650)572-2607
sv0f wrote:
> Assuming the answer to my question is "no," which
> lisp terms are most appropriate for a child's middle
> name?
I don't know, but the FIRST name of one of my children is "CAR"oline.
And the other one's middle initial is T.
faa
Kenny Tilton <·······@nyc.rr.com> wrote in message news:<················@nyc.rr.com>...
> Pascal Costanza wrote:
> should we start planning comp.lang.lisp subgroups? :)
comp.lang.lisp.50years-lose.why-more?!
BTW, I do like Lisp. Think twice before attacking me.
--
Valery
········@mail.ru (Valery) wrote in message
> comp.lang.lisp.50years-lose.why-more?!
>
> BTW, I do like Lisp. Think twice before attacking me.
Okay. How about I think ten times?
(loop for x from 1 to 10
do (think))
> NIL
Now that that's done...
Are you deliberately TRYING to rile people up, or is it a natural
talent? And are you going to go rambling on about "the spirit of
Lisp" next?
Oy.
Avi Blackmore
From: Valery A.Khamenya
Subject: Re: Some good news
Date:
Message-ID: <3f2135cb@shknews01>
Avi Blackmore wrote:
> Okay. How about I think ten times?
> (loop for x from 1 to 10
> do (think))
should I press Ctrl-C now? ;)
> Are you deliberately TRYING to rile people up, or is it a natural
> talent?
bad talent. You are right in a way.
> And are you going to go rambling on about "the spirit of
> Lisp" next?
no. Just could I say something like that hmm... one time per 5 years?
Was it really SO difficult to squeeze majority of those ?++ and alike
in such a big time frame like Lisp have had?
You know, actually, there were only few pardons for me to
shout out something unpleasant like I've done:
1. I tracked Lisp a lot, not just yesterday
2. Lisp is much older then I've tracked it.
3. Lisp is cool [!]
4. Lisp guru seem to be happy with current status quo of Lisp [!]
where is the Lisp for the "non-elite" people?
You could ask what the Lisp (or Lisp implementation)
I am speaking about? Here it is:
- free or not expensive
- compliant to (ANSI) standard
- portable Linux/win32
- full support for GUI apps development (no less then in Kylix
or Delphi)
- run-time compilation to native
- performance no more then 20% slower in comparison to, say, gcc
and do we have any close to that?
Tell me about some nice implementation which is able to squeeze
Kylix3. I have to use Kylix3 today. You are right, it can't
compile in run-time :)
I am happy that Unix get rid of doubtful "elite flavour" and comes
to people (with help of open source) as Linux.
Perhaps the same transfiguration will be with Lisp. Probably just
with some delay, but still with help of open source.
And please don't tell me how bad and how wrong I am. I know, but
my person is not that important as Lisp :) Tell me rather something
good about Lisp.
"Some good news."
I am waiting for this.
I hope some of those Lisp gurus (who are able to change things
still) could say: "he's completely wrong, but..."
I am really sorry for bold sentences. Have a nice weekend!
./flame>/dev/null
--
Valery
Valery A.Khamenya wrote:
> And please don't tell me how bad and how wrong I am. I know, but
> my person is not that important as Lisp :) Tell me rather something
> good about Lisp.
No, because you are not really trying, you are just trolling. These
people are serious about programming, and are ecstatic over Lisp:
http://www.cliki.net/The%20Road%20to%20Lisp%20Survey
You are serious only about drawing attention to yourself.
--
kenny tilton
clinisys, inc
http://www.tilton-technology.com/
---------------------------------------------------------------
"Everything is a cell." -- Alan Kay
Valery A.Khamenya <··········@biovision-discovery.de> wrote:
> where is the Lisp for the "non-elite" people?
> You could ask what the Lisp (or Lisp implementation)
> I am speaking about? Here it is:
> - free or not expensive
> - compliant to (ANSI) standard
> - portable Linux/win32
> - full support for GUI apps development (no less then in Kylix
> or Delphi)
> - run-time compilation to native
> - performance no more then 20% slower in comparison to, say, gcc
>
> and do we have any close to that?
What do you have that's close to that for C or C++? There are good free
lisps and GUI libraries to use with them. They aren't nearly as smooth
and easy to work with as those you get from professional development
environments. But the same is true of working in most languages.
Delphi sure as hell isn't "free or not expensive". No, it's priced
about the same as a typical commercial lisp environment. $1000 and up if
you want to actually deploy software, and not just get the personal only
edition. That's pretty normal. I'm not aware of a full-featured
commercial IDE for any general purpose language that sells for less than
$5-600. Considering the size of the potential market and the amount of
work that goes into these, I'm not surprised.
If you don't know from commercial IDEs and you're comfortable working in
a text editor with gcc with open source libraries, well -- emacs and
cmucl or openMCL look like pretty good lisp equivalents to me.
This seems universal with lisp criticisms. There's a double standard.
People expect things of lisp without having to buy commercial
implementations, that they do not expect of other languages without
having to buy commercial implementations.
Michael
·······@bcect.com (Michael Sullivan) writes:
> This seems universal with lisp criticisms. There's a double standard.
> People expect things of lisp without having to buy commercial
> implementations, that they do not expect of other languages without
> having to buy commercial implementations.
one reason might be familiarity. many people get to use the nicey
C++/Pascal environments at the colleges, and after college those
tools, due to their popularity, are pretty easy to "pirate".
consequently, many people (especially hobbyists) neither know nor care
how much something like Delphi actually sells for.
--
You cannot really appreciate "Dilbert" unless you've read it in the
original Klingon.
-- Klingon Programmer
Pascal Costanza <········@web.de> writes:
> Now the really good news: The talks by Matthias and me created the
> wish among some participants to hear more about Lisp,
You were actually in an old bastion of lisp people, so it's not that
surprising. The first lisp book I've read was written by another
professor at vub.ac.be (Steels, no relation to Steele) and had a
picture of him at the keyboard of a Symbolics. They've been doing lisp
there for quite some time.
--
Jane - Daria? Come on, the neighbors are starting to talk.
Daria - Um... good. Soon they'll progress to cave drawings and civilization
will be on its way.
Lieven Marchand wrote:
> Pascal Costanza <········@web.de> writes:
>
>
>>Now the really good news: The talks by Matthias and me created the
>>wish among some participants to hear more about Lisp,
>
>
> You were actually in an old bastion of lisp people, so it's not that
> surprising.
o ye of little faith! :) Pascal wrote:
"Now the really good news: The talks by Matthias and me created the wish
among some participants to hear more about Lisp, and so we organized a
spontaneous Lisp BOF in the evening in which I have talked about
metacircularity and macros. "
doesn't sound like old-timers' day to me. :)
--
kenny tilton
clinisys, inc
http://www.tilton-technology.com/
---------------------------------------------------------------
"Everything is a cell." -- Alan Kay
In article <··············@wyrd.be>, Lieven Marchand <···@wyrd.be>
wrote:
> Pascal Costanza <········@web.de> writes:
>
> > Now the really good news: The talks by Matthias and me created the
> > wish among some participants to hear more about Lisp,
>
> You were actually in an old bastion of lisp people, so it's not that
> surprising. The first lisp book I've read was written by another
> professor at vub.ac.be (Steels, no relation to Steele) and had a
> picture of him at the keyboard of a Symbolics. They've been doing lisp
> there for quite some time.
I think you have gotten that slightly wrong. The post-Java workshop has
taken place at the ECOOP conference, this year in Darmstadt, Germany.
(It's the second most important conference on OOP, something like the
Old European version of OOPSLA.) The workshop website is hosted at VUB
and among the organizers there were two people from VUB, but that's
about it.
At the workshop there have been four people from VUB, including the two
organizers. None of them have attended the Lisp BOF.
Pascal
In article <················@web.de>, Pascal Costanza <········@web.de>
wrote:
> Among the presentations, there have been two that were clearly
> Lisp-related (one by Matthias Hoelzl and one by me)
Good to hear what Matthias is doing. He was an early contributor to
Gwydion Dylan after it emerged from CMU.
-- Bruce