From: ·······@ziplip.com
Subject: Comp.lang.lisp Census 2003
Date: 
Message-ID: <J1D5JTCLBRGIKPDYCIFWIMDVFTOCNVN5EBP0N4D3@ziplip.com>
If you pardon my intrusiveness,

Do you have 

a. a job, 
b. an IT/programming job, 
c. a Lisp job 

And in what part of the world do you live?

As to myself: Yes, Yes, No, USA

I also wanted to ask, why are so many of you so angry? 
Is this because of your Lisp job or lack thereof?

From: Howard Ding <······@hading.dnsalias.com>
Subject: Re: Comp.lang.lisp Census 2003
Date: 
Message-ID: <m3oez9cyct.fsf@frisell.localdomain>
········@ziplip.com" <·······@ziplip.com> writes:


> Do you have 
>
> a. a job, 
> b. an IT/programming job, 
> c. a Lisp job 
>
> And in what part of the world do you live?
>
> As to myself: Yes, Yes, No, USA
>
> I also wanted to ask, why are so many of you so angry? 
> Is this because of your Lisp job or lack thereof?

Sure, I'll bite.
Yes, yes, kinda, USA.

By kinda I mean that I have a programming job in which my bosses
permit me to use whatever tools I want to achieve their ends and most
often, when it comes to programming languages, I feel that Lisp is the
appropriate tool.

I feel unqualified to answer the last two questions as I rarely find
myself angry, and then most often not very much so.

-- 
Howard Ding
<······@hading.dnsalias.com>
From: Erann Gat
Subject: Re: Comp.lang.lisp Census 2003
Date: 
Message-ID: <gat-0108030832250001@192.168.1.51>
In article <········································@ziplip.com>,
········@ziplip.com" <·······@ziplip.com> wrote:

> If you pardon my intrusiveness,
> 
> Do you have 
> 
> a. a job, 
> b. an IT/programming job, 
> c. a Lisp job 

Yes, no, no.

> 
> And in what part of the world do you live?
> 

USA (Los Angeles)

> As to myself: Yes, Yes, No, USA
> 
> I also wanted to ask, why are so many of you so angry? 
> Is this because of your Lisp job or lack thereof?

http://www.flownet.com/gat/jpl-lisp.html

E.
From: Gabor Melis
Subject: Re: Comp.lang.lisp Census 2003
Date: 
Message-ID: <fb0fb805.0308010744.1e01823c@posting.google.com>
········@ziplip.com" <·······@ziplip.com> wrote in message news:<········································@ziplip.com>...
> If you pardon my intrusiveness,
> 
> Do you have 
> 
> a. a job, 
> b. an IT/programming job, 
> c. a Lisp job 
> 
> And in what part of the world do you live?
> 

Yes, Yes, Sometimes, Hungary

> As to myself: Yes, Yes, No, USA
> 
> I also wanted to ask, why are so many of you so angry? 
> Is this because of your Lisp job or lack thereof?

Angry? Bitter idealists, maybe.

Gabor
From: Espen Vestre
Subject: Re: Comp.lang.lisp Census 2003
Date: 
Message-ID: <kwptjpg7br.fsf@merced.netfonds.no>
········@ziplip.com" <·······@ziplip.com> writes:

> Do you have 
> 
> a. a job, 
> b. an IT/programming job, 
> c. a Lisp job 
> 
> And in what part of the world do you live?
> 
> As to myself: Yes, Yes, No, USA

yes, yes, yes, Norway

> I also wanted to ask, why are so many of you so angry? 
> Is this because of your Lisp job or lack thereof?

I'm happy as a clam, except when I occasionally get upset by racists,
ignorants or MS products. 
-- 
  (espen)
From: Joe Marshall
Subject: Re: Comp.lang.lisp Census 2003
Date: 
Message-ID: <ptjpeakn.fsf@ccs.neu.edu>
········@ziplip.com" <·······@ziplip.com> writes:

> If you pardon my intrusiveness,
>
> Do you have 
>
> a. a job, 
> b. an IT/programming job, 
> c. a Lisp job 

yes, yes, yes

>
> And in what part of the world do you live?

US (Boston)

> I also wanted to ask, why are so many of you so angry? 

I'm mad, not angry.
From: Jock Cooper
Subject: Re: Comp.lang.lisp Census 2003
Date: 
Message-ID: <m37k5xs3bk.fsf@jcooper02.sagepub.com>
········@ziplip.com" <·······@ziplip.com> writes:

> If you pardon my intrusiveness,
> 
> Do you have 
> 
> a. a job, 
> b. an IT/programming job, 
> c. a Lisp job 
> 

Yes, Yes, Yes, USA 
From: Kenny Tilton
Subject: Re: Comp.lang.lisp Census 2003
Date: 
Message-ID: <3F2A4456.5040502@nyc.rr.com>
·······@ziplip.com wrote:
> If you pardon my intrusiveness,
> 
> Do you have 
> 
> a. a job, 
> b. an IT/programming job, 
> c. a Lisp job 
> 
> And in what part of the world do you live?
> 
> As to myself: Yes, Yes, No, USA
> 
> I also wanted to ask, why are so many of you so angry? 
> Is this because of your Lisp job or lack thereof?

I am angry because I have spent two days on a simple trig problem trying 
to work backwards from observations of known points to my location. Now 
that I have that solved, it turns out to have been a wast; the RoboCup 
visual sensor noise model is kicking my ass. The neat thing is that this 
knocks the hell out of using trig, because a little noise can blow up 
perty fast in those functions.

Aside from that, I am incredibly happy with Lisp. Even after years of 
use, I get a kick this AM knowing I can look at the doc on the noise 
model and in about 60 seconds I can recreate the quantize function and 
run it over sample data to get afeel for the noise and decide how to 
proceed.

I am glad you have a job, but something else is causing you great 
unhappiness, because only unhappy people write things like what you 
wrote. You have my compassion.

Is this unhappiness because of the absence thereof your Lisp job, and 
because instead you are using C++ on Windows? Now you really have my 
compassion. I suggest you at least play with Lisp in your spare time. 
That will cheer you up greatly, and have you ready when they start 
carting Java and C++ out the back door and wheel in the new Lisp machines.

Coming to ILC2003? It looks like a blast this year.


-- 

  kenny tilton
  clinisys, inc
  http://www.tilton-technology.com/
  ---------------------------------------------------------------
"Everything is a cell." -- Alan Kay
From: Doug Tolton
Subject: Re: Comp.lang.lisp Census 2003
Date: 
Message-ID: <1ffd32d9.0308090831.646c5b29@posting.google.com>
Kenny Tilton <·······@nyc.rr.com> wrote in message news:<················@nyc.rr.com>...
> ·······@ziplip.com wrote:
> 
> Coming to ILC2003? It looks like a blast this year.

I'm just a Lisp newb, but I'm going to attend this year.  I've already
got my airline tickets, haven't got  my conference tickets or hotel
reservations yet though.

I've never been to New York before, and neither has my wife (so she's
coming too).  Is anyone else taking their wife along?  We've talked
and she's interested in getting together with some of the other wives
to go site seeing during the day.
From: Paolo Amoroso
Subject: Re: Comp.lang.lisp Census 2003
Date: 
Message-ID: <5TY1P+Fzqg+uEK8U0U3TlETvqWea@4ax.com>
On 9 Aug 2003 09:31:21 -0700, ·······@yahoo.com (Doug Tolton) wrote:

> Kenny Tilton <·······@nyc.rr.com> wrote in message news:<················@nyc.rr.com>...
> > ·······@ziplip.com wrote:
> > 
> > Coming to ILC2003? It looks like a blast this year.
> 
> I'm just a Lisp newb, but I'm going to attend this year.  I've already
[...]
> I've never been to New York before, and neither has my wife (so she's
> coming too).  Is anyone else taking their wife along?  We've talked
> and she's interested in getting together with some of the other wives
> to go site seeing during the day.

You might add a wives/sightseeing section to the ILC 2003 pages at
CLiki/ALU CLiki.


Paolo
-- 
Paolo Amoroso <·······@mclink.it>
From: Paolo Amoroso
Subject: Re: Comp.lang.lisp Census 2003
Date: 
Message-ID: <YiU2PyPVUtl5Ld043OhIqqVgLOHF@4ax.com>
On Sun, 10 Aug 2003 10:42:15 +0200, Paolo Amoroso <·······@mclink.it>
wrote:

> You might add a wives/sightseeing section to the ILC 2003 pages at
                        ^^^^^^^^^^^
That should of course be site seeing...


Paolo
-- 
Paolo Amoroso <·······@mclink.it>
From: Kenny Tilton
Subject: Re: Comp.lang.lisp Census 2003
Date: 
Message-ID: <3F364F91.70909@nyc.rr.com>
Paolo Amoroso wrote:
> On Sun, 10 Aug 2003 10:42:15 +0200, Paolo Amoroso <·······@mclink.it>
> wrote:
> 
> 
>>You might add a wives/sightseeing section to the ILC 2003 pages at
> 
>                         ^^^^^^^^^^^
> That should of course be site seeing...

"sightseeing" was right. They will be going out to see the sights, as in 
cool things to see. A "site" is a place where something is placed or 
found, or a place where some event is held.

If they went out researching possible hotels for a convention of their 
own, then a play on words could be made by describing it as siteseeing.

btw, can husbands of women attending ILC2003 tag along with the wives?

:)

-- 

  kenny tilton
  clinisys, inc
  http://www.tilton-technology.com/
  ---------------------------------------------------------------
"Career highlights? I had two. I got an intentional walk from
Sandy Koufax and I got out of a rundown against the Mets."
                                                  -- Bob Uecker
From: Paolo Amoroso
Subject: Re: Comp.lang.lisp Census 2003
Date: 
Message-ID: <noE3P905pJm76Mk498iFFfUlK=dY@4ax.com>
On Sun, 10 Aug 2003 14:01:05 GMT, Kenny Tilton <·······@nyc.rr.com> wrote:

> Paolo Amoroso wrote:
> > On Sun, 10 Aug 2003 10:42:15 +0200, Paolo Amoroso <·······@mclink.it>
> > wrote:
> > 
> > 
> >>You might add a wives/sightseeing section to the ILC 2003 pages at
> > 
> >                         ^^^^^^^^^^^
> > That should of course be site seeing...
> 
> "sightseeing" was right. They will be going out to see the sights, as in 

It went like this. In my followup I wrote `sightseeing'. Then I reread it,
and realized that the original poster had used `site seeing' instead.
Assuming he is a native speaker, I thought I had made a mistake.


Paolo
-- 
Paolo Amoroso <·······@mclink.it>
From: Steve Zimmerman
Subject: Re: Comp.lang.lisp Census 2003
Date: 
Message-ID: <3F389DD2.9070306@sonic.net>
No, no, no, and I am a happy hobbyist programmer who's
never made a dime programming and who would never trade
the joy of programming for money, anyway. I'd
like a programming job in which I could actually enjoy
programming and not get burnt out or agonized, but I'm
not holding my breath.
From: Kenny Tilton
Subject: Re: Comp.lang.lisp Census 2003
Date: 
Message-ID: <3F38E903.5020007@nyc.rr.com>
Steve Zimmerman wrote:
> No, no, no, and I am a happy hobbyist programmer who's
> never made a dime programming and who would never trade
> the joy of programming for money, anyway. I'd
> like a programming job in which I could actually enjoy
> programming and not get burnt out or agonized, but I'm
> not holding my breath.
> 

Actually, that was my thinking when I never considered a career in 
programming after loving it to death in my first exposure, "Fortran for 
Economists", an intro to programming course offered by my major department.

I was wrong. Six years later I was shuttling data between two tape 
drives for an insurance company over buggy DecNet software on RSTS/E and 
having the time of my life.

ymmd

-- 

  kenny tilton
  clinisys, inc
  http://www.tilton-technology.com/
  ---------------------------------------------------------------
"Career highlights? I had two. I got an intentional walk from
Sandy Koufax and I got out of a rundown against the Mets."
                                                  -- Bob Uecker
From: Doug Tolton
Subject: Re: Comp.lang.lisp Census 2003
Date: 
Message-ID: <vj8hjv4240lhj6kek2glg3hr42e2g614t3@4ax.com>
On Mon, 11 Aug 2003 15:37:17 +0200, Paolo Amoroso <·······@mclink.it>
wrote:

>It went like this. In my followup I wrote `sightseeing'. Then I reread it,
>and realized that the original poster had used `site seeing' instead.
>Assuming he is a native speaker, I thought I had made a mistake.

UGH!!

You had to add the "Assuming he is a native speaker,"  D'oh!!

I'm usually quite particular about my spelling, less so about my
grammar.  Of course I had to go and post it on a newsgroup so it will
be memorialized in Google for all time.  Although with my flame of
Robert Yaas below, maybe I shouldn't care about people seeing my
misspellings.

Sightseeing, Sightseeing, Sightseeing.  Stupid special forms are
killing me today (and yes, atm Sightseeing is a special form :-p)

Doug Tolton
From: Kenny Tilton
Subject: Re: Comp.lang.lisp Census 2003
Date: 
Message-ID: <3F38C39D.4050209@nyc.rr.com>
Doug Tolton wrote:
> On Mon, 11 Aug 2003 15:37:17 +0200, Paolo Amoroso <·······@mclink.it>
> wrote:
> 
> 
>>It went like this. In my followup I wrote `sightseeing'. Then I reread it,
>>and realized that the original poster had used `site seeing' instead.
>>Assuming he is a native speaker, I thought I had made a mistake.
> 
> 
> UGH!!
> 
> You had to add the "Assuming he is a native speaker,"  D'oh!!
> 
> I'm usually quite particular about my spelling, less so about my
> grammar.  Of course I had to go and post it on a newsgroup so it will
> be memorialized in Google for all time.

yeah, that's the worst. you could just fix it and there would be no 
trace if you had made the same mistake on the html for a web sight.

-- 

  kenny tilton
  clinisys, inc
  http://www.tilton-technology.com/
  ---------------------------------------------------------------
"Career highlights? I had two. I got an intentional walk from
Sandy Koufax and I got out of a rundown against the Mets."
                                                  -- Bob Uecker
From: Pascal Costanza
Subject: Re: Comp.lang.lisp Census 2003
Date: 
Message-ID: <bgd9iu$127e$1@f1node01.rhrz.uni-bonn.de>
·······@ziplip.com wrote:
> If you pardon my intrusiveness,
> 
> Do you have 
> 
> a. a job, 
> b. an IT/programming job, 
> c. a Lisp job 
> 
> And in what part of the world do you live?
> 
> As to myself: Yes, Yes, No, USA

Yes, yes, somewhat, Germany

> I also wanted to ask, why are so many of you so angry? 
> Is this because of your Lisp job or lack thereof?

Many? Is there another comp.lang.lisp that you are talking about?


Pascal

-- 
Pascal Costanza               University of Bonn
···············@web.de        Institute of Computer Science III
http://www.pascalcostanza.de  R�merstr. 164, D-53117 Bonn (Germany)
From: Edi Weitz
Subject: Re: Comp.lang.lisp Census 2003
Date: 
Message-ID: <87lludn2s0.fsf@bird.agharta.de>
········@ziplip.com" <·······@ziplip.com> writes:

> If you pardon my intrusiveness,
> 
> Do you have 
> 
> a. a job, 
> b. an IT/programming job, 
> c. a Lisp job 
> 
> And in what part of the world do you live?

Yes (self-employed), yes, partly, Germany.

> I also wanted to ask, why are so many of you so angry?  Is this
> because of your Lisp job or lack thereof?

Nice attitude. You should consider walking into your local Hell's
Angels club and ask the nice guys there if it's true that they have to
ride big bikes because there dicks are too short.

Edi.
From: Edi Weitz
Subject: Re: Comp.lang.lisp Census 2003
Date: 
Message-ID: <878yqdn2dd.fsf@bird.agharta.de>
Edi Weitz <···@agharta.de> writes:

> because there dicks are too short.
          ^^^^^

"their", of course. Happens to me twice a day at least.

Edi.
From: Doug Tolton
Subject: Re: Comp.lang.lisp Census 2003
Date: 
Message-ID: <1ffd32d9.0308082155.202f5e78@posting.google.com>
Edi Weitz <···@agharta.de> wrote in message news:<··············@bird.agharta.de>...
> Edi Weitz <···@agharta.de> writes:
> 
> > because there dicks are too short.
>           ^^^^^
> 
> "their", of course. Happens to me twice a day at least.
> 
> Edi.

People ask you twice a day if your dick is too short?

Dang, that's harsh!!  :)
From: Edi Weitz
Subject: Re: Comp.lang.lisp Census 2003
Date: 
Message-ID: <87y8y38i8d.fsf@bird.agharta.de>
On 8 Aug 2003 22:55:58 -0700, ·······@yahoo.com (Doug Tolton) wrote:

> Edi Weitz <···@agharta.de> wrote in message news:<··············@bird.agharta.de>...
> > Edi Weitz <···@agharta.de> writes:
> > 
> > > because there dicks are too short.
> >           ^^^^^
> > 
> > "their", of course. Happens to me twice a day at least.
> > 
> > Edi.
> 
> People ask you twice a day if your dick is too short?
> 
> Dang, that's harsh!!  :)

Isn't it?
From: Kenny Tilton
Subject: Calling all Newbies! [was Re: Comp.lang.lisp Census 2003]
Date: 
Message-ID: <3F34D219.6070103@nyc.rr.com>
Edi Weitz wrote:
> On 8 Aug 2003 22:55:58 -0700, ·······@yahoo.com (Doug Tolton) wrote:
> 
> 
>>Edi Weitz <···@agharta.de> wrote in message news:<··············@bird.agharta.de>...
>>
>>>Edi Weitz <···@agharta.de> writes:
>>>
>>>
>>>>because there dicks are too short.
>>>
>>>          ^^^^^
>>>
>>>"their", of course. Happens to me twice a day at least.
>>>

Might be old age. I started spelling randomly according to sound at 
about your age, guessing from:

    http://www.cliki.net/Edi%20Weitz

Well, the tedious retrotagging of all the respondents is complete:

    http://www.cliki.net/The%20RtLS%20by%20Road

Respondents might want to check their pages to make sure I did not screw 
them up too badly. Some folks originally listed onder "language 
curiosity" got moved to the new, more appropriate "Seek and Ye Shall 
Find" category:

    http://www.cliki.net/Seek%20and%20Ye%20Shall%20Find

I listed that ahead of the enormous group citing Paul Graham because it 
hols the most hope for Lisp; these are people who were so pained by the 
languages they already knew that they went on a search for A Better Way.

Another great group is Grenspuns's Tenth:

    http://www.cliki.net/RtL%20Greenspun's%20Tenth

These folks were doing Lisp without realizing it, a measure of how 
compelling are the more powerful features of Lisp.

The breakdown by year is puzzling:

    http://www.cliki.net/The%20RtLS%20by%20Switch%20Year

The numbers citing 2002 as the year they got serious about Lisp dwarfs 
the 2003 number, even though this survey started precisely because of 
all the newbies here. Maybe they are still thinking, or for some reason 
think it is too soon or...

..well, whatever the reason, plz reconsider. Newbie responses are the 
most interesting, the ones I am most interested in seeing. Even if you 
are still on the fence, it will be valuable knowing what got you to the 
fence at least.

And anyone who now digs Lisp and would like to see Lisp grow so they can 
use it at work, responding might help. I wasn't thinking along these 
lines when I started the survey, but what better place to send someone 
who asks, "Why Lisp?".

So plz get your responses in. To respond, simply edit:

     http://www.cliki.net/The%20Road%20to%20Lisp%20Questions

..then select all, copy, back off that page, click "Create new page", 
type in your name, hit OK to create the page, paste, and then revise as 
necessary leaving the first sentence unchanged.


-- 

  kenny tilton
  clinisys, inc
  http://www.tilton-technology.com/
  ---------------------------------------------------------------
"Career highlights? I had two. I got an intentional walk from
Sandy Koufax and I got out of a rundown against the Mets."
                                                  -- Bob Uecker
From: Chris Perkins
Subject: Re: Comp.lang.lisp Census 2003
Date: 
Message-ID: <6cb6c81f.0308011041.3f6666aa@posting.google.com>
Yes
Yes
Somewhat
USA

I use Lisp as much as I can, but have yet to ship a product built in
Lisp.  It is my goal and I'm working on it.

I'm not angry, but I will admit it has become harder to work in
C++/Java after learning Lisp.  I used to _really_ enjoy programming,
now I seem to only really enjoy programming in Lisp.  Programming in
other languages is sometimes enjoyable, mostly ho-hum, and
occasionally miserable.

Chris
From: John Fraser
Subject: Re: Comp.lang.lisp Census 2003
Date: 
Message-ID: <p_WXa.11558$602.6656@nwrddc03.gnilink.net>
"Chris Perkins" <········@medialab.com> wrote in message
·································@posting.google.com...
> Yes
> Yes
> Somewhat
> USA
>
> I use Lisp as much as I can, but have yet to ship a product built in
> Lisp.  It is my goal and I'm working on it.
>
> I'm not angry, but I will admit it has become harder to work in
> C++/Java after learning Lisp.  I used to _really_ enjoy programming,
> now I seem to only really enjoy programming in Lisp.  Programming in
> other languages is sometimes enjoyable, mostly ho-hum, and
> occasionally miserable.

I couldn't agree more.

> Chris
From: Thomas F. Burdick
Subject: Re: Comp.lang.lisp Census 2003
Date: 
Message-ID: <xcvy8y745r6.fsf@famine.OCF.Berkeley.EDU>
········@medialab.com (Chris Perkins) writes:

> Yes
> Yes
> Somewhat
> USA
> 
> I use Lisp as much as I can, but have yet to ship a product built in
> Lisp.  It is my goal and I'm working on it.
> 
> I'm not angry, but I will admit it has become harder to work in
> C++/Java after learning Lisp.  I used to _really_ enjoy programming,
> now I seem to only really enjoy programming in Lisp.  Programming in
> other languages is sometimes enjoyable, mostly ho-hum, and
> occasionally miserable.

I recommend more interesting languages: PostScript, SmallTalk, classic
FORTRAN (making use of three-way if).  Even knowing Lisp, they're fun.

-- 
           /|_     .-----------------------.                        
         ,'  .\  / | No to Imperialist war |                        
     ,--'    _,'   | Wage class war!       |                        
    /       /      `-----------------------'                        
   (   -.  |                               
   |     ) |                               
  (`-.  '--.)                              
   `. )----'                               
From: Christophe Rhodes
Subject: Re: Comp.lang.lisp Census 2003
Date: 
Message-ID: <sqllu79q06.fsf@lambda.jcn.srcf.net>
···@famine.OCF.Berkeley.EDU (Thomas F. Burdick) writes:

> I recommend more interesting languages: [...] classic FORTRAN
> (making use of three-way if).

Gah no make it go away ouch you're hurting me.

Christophe
-- 
http://www-jcsu.jesus.cam.ac.uk/~csr21/       +44 1223 510 299/+44 7729 383 757
(set-pprint-dispatch 'number (lambda (s o) (declare (special b)) (format s b)))
(defvar b "~&Just another Lisp hacker~%")    (pprint #36rJesusCollegeCambridge)
From: Jacek Generowicz
Subject: Re: Comp.lang.lisp Census 2003
Date: 
Message-ID: <tyfwudpr5wk.fsf@pcepsft001.cern.ch>
···@famine.OCF.Berkeley.EDU (Thomas F. Burdick) writes:

> I recommend more interesting languages: PostScript,

Any of you using Forth for your work ?

> SmallTalk, classic FORTRAN (making use of three-way if).  Even
> knowing Lisp, they're fun.

I guess I might as well chip in my answers to the original census:

Yes.
Mostly.
No.
Geneva, Switzerland.

Not angry, just in pain. (We Greenspun. Badly.)
From: Thomas F. Burdick
Subject: Re: Comp.lang.lisp Census 2003
Date: 
Message-ID: <xcv7k5oujmd.fsf@famine.OCF.Berkeley.EDU>
Jacek Generowicz <················@cern.ch> writes:

> ···@famine.OCF.Berkeley.EDU (Thomas F. Burdick) writes:
> 
> > I recommend more interesting languages: PostScript,
> 
> Any of you using Forth for your work ?

Who said anything about work?  I was just suggesting languages other
than Lisp that are still fun to program in.  But no, I don't know
Forth.

-- 
           /|_     .-----------------------.                        
         ,'  .\  / | No to Imperialist war |                        
     ,--'    _,'   | Wage class war!       |                        
    /       /      `-----------------------'                        
   (   -.  |                               
   |     ) |                               
  (`-.  '--.)                              
   `. )----'                               
From: Jacek Generowicz
Subject: Forth [was: Comp.lang.lisp Census 2003]
Date: 
Message-ID: <tyf4r0opj2t.fsf_-_@pcepsft001.cern.ch>
···@famine.OCF.Berkeley.EDU (Thomas F. Burdick) writes:

> Jacek Generowicz <················@cern.ch> writes:
> 
> > ···@famine.OCF.Berkeley.EDU (Thomas F. Burdick) writes:
> > 
> > > I recommend more interesting languages: PostScript,
> > 
> > Any of you using Forth for your work ?
> 
> Who said anything about work?

Me :-)

> I was just suggesting languages other than Lisp that are still fun
> to program in.

Yes, I understand, but your mention of Postscript reminded me of
Forth; and as Forth looks very interesting to me (note: I have written
less than 100 words of Forth in my entire life, so this is only an
impression), and seems to share some of Lisp's huge advantages, while
being targeted at a different style of domain, it strikes me as an
excellent complement to Lisp in a developer's skill-set. Hence, I
wondered if any c.l.l lispers are getting good mileage out of Forth,
alongside Lisp.
From: Arthur T. Murray
Subject: Re: Forth [was: Comp.lang.lisp Census 2003]
Date: 
Message-ID: <3f37a6af@news.victoria.tc.ca>
>> [...] I was just suggesting languages other than Lisp
>> that are still fun to program in.
>
> Yes, I understand, but your mention of Postscript reminded
> me of Forth; and as Forth looks very interesting to me
> (note: I have written less than 100 words of Forth in my
> entire life, so this is only an impression), and seems to
> share some of Lisp's huge advantages, while being targeted
> at a different style of domain, it strikes me as an
> excellent complement to Lisp in a developer's skill-set.
> Hence, I wondered if any c.l.l lispers are getting
> good mileage out of Forth, alongside Lisp.

http://victoria.tc.ca/~uj797/mind4th.html is an AI Mind in Forth.

No matter which AI language you favor, please accept the challenge 
of coding a main Alife Mind program loop with stubbed-in calls to 
the following artificial intelligence mind-modules:
- Security
- Sensorium
- Emotion
- Think
- Volition
- Motorium.

Please code this first AI module in your favorite 
XYZ programming language by following the steps at
http://mentifex.virtualentity.com/acm.html -- DIY AI.

If you know several programming languages, 
code the Mind loop in each of them.

Put the resulting "main Alife Mind program loop" 
on your personal Web site as open source AI code.

Then come back to Usenet and post a link to your 
free AI source code for others to copy and enhance.

The idea is, if enough AI code warriors implement the first 
Mind-module, other AI enthusiasts will respond to the grand 
challenge of AI and code the AI Mind a little further.

We do not wish to standardize or homogenize the resulting AI code. 
On the contrary, we want to see many pathways of AI evolution 
branching off into the future in a survival-of-the-fittest race 
towards the Technological Singularity of Vernor Vinge.

-- 
http://mentifex.virtualentity.com/weblog.html "AI has been solved"
From: pete kirkham
Subject: Re: Comp.lang.lisp Census 2003
Date: 
Message-ID: <3f33eaf2$0$11376$cc9e4d1f@news.dial.pipex.com>
Jacek Generowicz wrote:
> Any of you using Forth for your work ?

Not since the '80s.

My first summer job was drawing icons for, configuring and testing a 
front end to an chemical plant control system written in Forth.


Pete
From: Christian Lynbech
Subject: Re: Comp.lang.lisp Census 2003
Date: 
Message-ID: <8765l2ptnx.fsf@baguette.defun.dk>
>>>>> "Thomas" == Thomas F Burdick <···@famine.OCF.Berkeley.EDU> writes:

Thomas> I recommend more interesting languages: PostScript, SmallTalk, classic
Thomas> FORTRAN (making use of three-way if).  Even knowing Lisp, they're fun.

If we are talking fun, you'll have to throw in Intercal as well.

Intercal is a bonafide programming language with an interpreter and
all. It is also some of the most hilarious software I have ever come
across.

A few examples from the back of my memory:

   - a program must contain the "please" statement often enough or
     the interpreter will become offended and refuse to execute more
     of the program

   - there is not a "goto" but a "come from" statement, ie. you write
     something like "come from 100" and when execution hits line 100
     it will jump to the "come from 100" statement and continue from
     there


------------------------+-----------------------------------------------------
Christian Lynbech       | email:  ·········@defun.dk 
------------------------+-----------------------------------------------------
Hit the philistines three times over the head with the Elisp reference manual.
                                        - ·······@hal.com (Michael A. Petonic)
From: Gorbag
Subject: Re: Comp.lang.lisp Census 2003
Date: 
Message-ID: <Xyd_a.3912$c6.3265@bos-service2.ext.raytheon.com>
"Christian Lynbech" <·········@defun.dk> wrote in message
···················@baguette.defun.dk...
> >>>>> "Thomas" == Thomas F Burdick <···@famine.OCF.Berkeley.EDU> writes:
>
> Thomas> I recommend more interesting languages: PostScript, SmallTalk,
classic
> Thomas> FORTRAN (making use of three-way if).  Even knowing Lisp, they're
fun.
>
> If we are talking fun, you'll have to throw in Intercal as well.
>
> Intercal is a bonafide programming language with an interpreter and
> all. It is also some of the most hilarious software I have ever come
> across.
>
> A few examples from the back of my memory:

Scratch your virtual memory no more, here is the language definition:

http://www.muppetlabs.com/~breadbox/intercal-man/home.html

and indeed, it is a very interesting language ;-).
From: Thomas F. Burdick
Subject: Re: Comp.lang.lisp Census 2003
Date: 
Message-ID: <xcvllud5gsb.fsf@famine.OCF.Berkeley.EDU>
········@ziplip.com" <·······@ziplip.com> writes:

> If you pardon my intrusiveness,
> 
> Do you have 
> 
> a. a job, 
> b. an IT/programming job, 
> c. a Lisp job 
> 
> And in what part of the world do you live?

yes, yes, often

SF Bay Area (USA)

--

I am the psychotherapist.  Please, describe your problems.  Each time
you are finished talking, type RET twice.

> I also wanted to ask, why are so many of you so angry? 

Are you angry often?

  no

Why not?

  I'm generally happy

Do you get happy often?

  yes

I see...  Well, why do you say this is so?

> Is this because of your Lisp job or lack thereof?

Are you sure that is the real reason?

  no

Does it bother you that I ask that?

  a little bit

What makes you believe a little bit?

  now I'm angry

What causes you to be angry?

  Finding bugs in the Perl interpreter.  I seem to have a knack for it.

Earlier you said you felt angry?

  Yeah, but I'm happy when I use Lisp.  And when I work at the coffee shop.

What happened when you work at the coffee shop?

  I think we're getting off-topic

Maybe my lisp job or lack thereof have something to do with this.

  But Doctor, you're written in Lisp!

Is it because of your plans that you say I am written in lisp?

  It's because your source code is right here:
  /opt/local/gnu/packages/emacs-21.3/share/emacs/21.3/lisp/play/doctor.el

Is it because my source code is right there opt local gnu packages
emacs 21 3 share emacs 21 3 lisp play doctor el that you came to me?

  Goodbye, Doctor.

-- 
           /|_     .-----------------------.                        
         ,'  .\  / | No to Imperialist war |                        
     ,--'    _,'   | Wage class war!       |                        
    /       /      `-----------------------'                        
   (   -.  |                               
   |     ) |                               
  (`-.  '--.)                              
   `. )----'                               
From: Charlie
Subject: Re: Comp.lang.lisp Census 2003
Date: 
Message-ID: <bgdlrs$nnd8u$1@ID-155962.news.uni-berlin.de>
·······@ziplip.com wrote:
> If you pardon my intrusiveness,
> 
> Do you have 
> 
> a. a job, 
> b. an IT/programming job, 
> c. a Lisp job 
> 
> And in what part of the world do you live?
> 
> As to myself: Yes, Yes, No, USA
> 
> I also wanted to ask, why are so many of you so angry? 
> Is this because of your Lisp job or lack thereof?

Yes, Yes, No :( , UK
From: Cor Gest
Subject: Re: Comp.lang.lisp Census 2003
Date: 
Message-ID: <87smol36nz.fsf@cleopatra.clsnet.nl>
begin of a quotation from the text written by:
   Charlie <·····@nowhere.co.uk>:

> > Do you have a. a job, b. an IT/programming job, c. a Lisp job And in
> > what part of the world do you live?

some-times,self-employed,some,NL

cor

-- 
 The Inca's used strings to communicate 5000 yrs ago, computers still do.
(setq  reply-to (concatenate 'string "Cor Gest ""<cor"'(··@)"clsnet.nl>"))
From: Lowell
Subject: Re: Comp.lang.lisp Census 2003
Date: 
Message-ID: <bgep3a$p6$1@mughi.cs.ubc.ca>
No, No, No, Canada.

Am I the only student here?

Lowell

·······@ziplip.com wrote:

> If you pardon my intrusiveness,
> 
> Do you have 
> 
> a. a job, 
> b. an IT/programming job, 
> c. a Lisp job 
> 
> And in what part of the world do you live?
> 
> As to myself: Yes, Yes, No, USA
> 
> I also wanted to ask, why are so many of you so angry? 
> Is this because of your Lisp job or lack thereof?
From: Programmer Dude
Subject: Re: Comp.lang.lisp Census 2003
Date: 
Message-ID: <3F2AD624.106D239E@mmm.com>
········@ziplip.com" wrote:

> If you pardon my intrusiveness,

If will if you'll pardon that I just started learning Lisp last
weekend and am kinda new here....

> Do you have
> 
> a. a job,
> b. an IT/programming job,
> c. a Lisp job

Yep.  Yep.  Nope (but once I learn the language to the point
of using it professionally, no reason why not).

> And in what part of the world do you live?

The round part.

-- 
|_ CJSonnack <·····@Sonnack.com> _____________| How's my programming? |
|_ http://www.Sonnack.com/ ___________________| Call: 1-800-DEV-NULL  |
|_____________________________________________|_______________________|
From: Drew McDermott
Subject: Re: Comp.lang.lisp Census 2003
Date: 
Message-ID: <bgek3r$kg5$1@news.wss.yale.edu>
·······@ziplip.com wrote:
> If you pardon my intrusiveness,
> 
> Do you have 
> 
> a. a job, 
> b. an IT/programming job, 
> c. a Lisp job 
> d. a country you live in

Yes, no, hmmm?, and USA

Clarification: I am a professor of Computer Science, which is not 
exactly an IT/programming job.  However, I still hack a lot, and 
virtually always in Lisp.  (Exceptions: I write GUIs in Java, and 
connect them to Lisp, where the real work is done.)

Do I _teach_ Lisp?  Yes, whenever possible, but that isn't often.  No 
one around here (Yale) is hostile to Lisp.  It's just not functional 
_enough_ compared to ML and Haskell.

> I also wanted to ask, why are so many of you so angry? 

I am rarely angry, but like everyone else I have to fight against the 
odd tendency to be ruder in newsgroups than in real life with the 
INCREDIBLE ASSHOLES who can't understand THE MOST SIMPLE and OBVIOUS 
OBSERVATIONS that I make.

     -- Drew McDermott
From: Dave
Subject: Re: Comp.lang.lisp Census 2003
Date: 
Message-ID: <owyWa.220259$lK4.6437236@twister1.libero.it>
<·······@ziplip.com> ha scritto nel messaggio
·············································@ziplip.com...
> If you pardon my intrusiveness,
>
> Do you have
>
> a. a job,
> b. an IT/programming job,
> c. a Lisp job

(NIL T NIL)

> And in what part of the world do you live?
>

(IT)

> I also wanted to ask, why are so many of you so angry?
> Is this because of your Lisp job or lack thereof?

so Angry? I had not never noticed it.

[clisp] angry
[clisp] *** - EVAL: variable angry has no value

:-))
greetings
Dave
From: pete kirkham
Subject: Re: Comp.lang.lisp Census 2003
Date: 
Message-ID: <3f2aa903$0$15039$cc9e4d1f@news.dial.pipex.com>
·······@ziplip.com wrote:
> If you pardon my intrusiveness,
> 
> Do you have 
> 
> a. a job, 
> b. an IT/programming job, 
> c. a Lisp job 
> 
> And in what part of the world do you live?

Yes, Yes, Not yet, UK

I am pushing lisp in my job as a prototyping language and for tools to 
help me create systems, but at the moment it's not policy to release 
software in lisp.  Most of the software has a long maintance life 
(around 20-30 years for the core routines), and the powers-that-be want 
to be sure of finding developers in the future, so insist on Java and 
C++ (the logic of this choice is somewhat opaque to me). The trend at 
work seems to be replacing Visual Basic with Java (better standardized, 
portable GUIS) and replacing FORTRAN with Java or C++ (better 
constructs, no real speed difference).

> I also wanted to ask, why are so many of you so angry? 

There's only one of me and I'm chillin'


Pete
From: Donald Fisk
Subject: Re: Comp.lang.lisp Census 2003
Date: 
Message-ID: <3F304B57.ECB887D7@enterprise.net>
pete kirkham wrote:

> I am pushing lisp in my job as a prototyping language and for tools to
> help me create systems, but at the moment it's not policy to release
> software in lisp.  Most of the software has a long maintance life
> (around 20-30 years for the core routines), and the powers-that-be want
> to be sure of finding developers in the future, so insist on Java and
> C++ (the logic of this choice is somewhat opaque to me). The trend at
> work seems to be replacing Visual Basic with Java (better standardized,
> portable GUIS) and replacing FORTRAN with Java or C++ (better
> constructs, no real speed difference).

Let me get this right: they want a language which will still
be in active use 20 or 30 years from now, and so they're replacing
a language which have been in continuous use for almost 50 years,
and refusing to use another language which has been in continuous
use for almost 45 years, with a language which has been around for
only eight years and whose popularity is largely the result of
internet hype?

And they're still drinking ordinary scotch?

> Pete

-- 
:ugah179 (home page: http://web.onetel.com/~hibou/)

"I'm outta here.  Python people are much nicer."
                -- Erik Naggum (out of context)
From: Greg Menke
Subject: Re: Comp.lang.lisp Census 2003
Date: 
Message-ID: <m3ispb7b22.fsf@europa.pienet>
Donald Fisk <················@enterprise.net> writes:

> pete kirkham wrote:
> 
> > I am pushing lisp in my job as a prototyping language and for tools to
> > help me create systems, but at the moment it's not policy to release
> > software in lisp.  Most of the software has a long maintance life
> > (around 20-30 years for the core routines), and the powers-that-be want
> > to be sure of finding developers in the future, so insist on Java and
> > C++ (the logic of this choice is somewhat opaque to me). The trend at
> > work seems to be replacing Visual Basic with Java (better standardized,
> > portable GUIS) and replacing FORTRAN with Java or C++ (better
> > constructs, no real speed difference).
> 
> Let me get this right: they want a language which will still
> be in active use 20 or 30 years from now, and so they're replacing
> a language which have been in continuous use for almost 50 years,
> and refusing to use another language which has been in continuous
> use for almost 45 years, with a language which has been around for
> only eight years and whose popularity is largely the result of
> internet hype?
> 
> And they're still drinking ordinary scotch?

They'll be moving to the even stronger stuff quite soon now that
they're on the bandwagon of rewriting the app every 5 to 7 years.  The
beneficiaries are the consultants- which is only to be expected as the
beneficiaries of the legal system are the lawyers... ;)

Gregm
From: mogni pardesi
Subject: Re: Comp.lang.lisp Census 2003
Date: 
Message-ID: <1f604f52.0308180417.636c42ca@posting.google.com>
Greg Menke <··········@toadmail.com> wrote in message news:<··············@europa.pienet>...



 
> They'll be moving to the even stronger stuff quite soon now that
> they're on the bandwagon of rewriting the app every 5 to 7 years.  The
> beneficiaries are the consultants- which is only to be expected as the
> beneficiaries of the legal system are the lawyers... ;)


ekes, you must have the wrong lawyers!  Maybe *that's* why you're all so angry.
From: pete kirkham
Subject: Re: Comp.lang.lisp Census 2003
Date: 
Message-ID: <3f31419d$0$18495$cc9e4d1f@news.dial.pipex.com>
Donald Fisk wrote:
> pete kirkham wrote:
> 
> 
>>I am pushing lisp in my job as a prototyping language and for tools to
>>help me create systems, but at the moment it's not policy to release
>>software in lisp.  Most of the software has a long maintance life
>>(around 20-30 years for the core routines), and the powers-that-be want
>>to be sure of finding developers in the future, so insist on Java and
>>C++ (the logic of this choice is somewhat opaque to me). The trend at
>>work seems to be replacing Visual Basic with Java (better standardized,
>>portable GUIS) and replacing FORTRAN with Java or C++ (better
>>constructs, no real speed difference).
> 
> 
> Let me get this right: they want a language which will still
> be in active use 20 or 30 years from now, and so they're replacing
> a language which have been in continuous use for almost 50 years,
> and refusing to use another language which has been in continuous
> use for almost 45 years, with a language which has been around for
> only eight years and whose popularity is largely the result of
> internet hype?
> 
> And they're still drinking ordinary scotch?

I did say their logic was opaque.


Pete
From: Coby Beck
Subject: Re: Comp.lang.lisp Census 2003
Date: 
Message-ID: <bgdfaa$2tkk$1@otis.netspace.net.au>
<·······@ziplip.com> wrote in message
·············································@ziplip.com...
> If you pardon my intrusiveness,
>
> Do you have
>
> a. a job,
> b. an IT/programming job,
> c. a Lisp job

Yes.  Yes.  Yes, mostly.

> And in what part of the world do you live?

Australia.

> I also wanted to ask, why are so many of you so angry?
> Is this because of your Lisp job or lack thereof?

FOR THE THOUSANDTH TIME, I'M NOT @··@·@ ANGRY!!

-- 
Coby Beck
(remove #\Space "coby 101 @ big pond . com")
From: Eduardo Muñoz
Subject: Re: Comp.lang.lisp Census 2003
Date: 
Message-ID: <ufzklqlkf.fsf@terra.es>
* ········@ziplip.com" <·······@ziplip.com>
| If you pardon my intrusiveness,
| 
| Do you have 
| 
| a. a job, 
| b. an IT/programming job, 
| c. a Lisp job 
| 
| And in what part of the world do you live?

Yes, No, No, Seville (Spain) where it's too damn hot (46 �C
or 115 �F for the celsius degrees impaired).

| I also wanted to ask, why are so many of you so angry? 
| Is this because of your Lisp job or lack thereof?

It's just a pose  :P

-- 
Eduardo Mu�oz          | (prog () 10 (print "Hello world!")
http://213.97.131.125/ |          20 (go 10))
From: Peter Ward
Subject: Re: Comp.lang.lisp Census 2003
Date: 
Message-ID: <bggsbr$3no$1$8300dec7@news.demon.co.uk>
>a. a job, 
>b. an IT/programming job, 
>c. a Lisp job 
>And in what part of the world do you live?
>I also wanted to ask, why are so many of you so angry? 
>Is this because of your Lisp job or lack thereof?

yes, yes, no, UK.
I'm not angry.
From: Signal9
Subject: Re: Comp.lang.lisp Census 2003
Date: 
Message-ID: <pan.2003.08.03.04.42.25.37601@iratepublik.com>
On Fri, 01 Aug 2003 00:23:56 -0700, ·······@ziplip.com wrote:

> Do you have 
> 
> a. a job, 
> b. an IT/programming job, 
> c. a Lisp job 
> 
> And in what part of the world do you live?


Yes, Yes, No, USA


-- 
Adam A. G. Shamblin	<·······@iratepublik.com>
http://iratepublik.com
From: David Golden
Subject: Re: Comp.lang.lisp Census 2003
Date: 
Message-ID: <235b265c.0308030414.734fac7f@posting.google.com>
········@ziplip.com" <·······@ziplip.com> wrote in message news:<········································@ziplip.com>...
> If you pardon my intrusiveness,
> 
> Do you have 
> 
> a. a job, 
> b. an IT/programming job, 
> c. a Lisp job 
> 
> And in what part of the world do you live?
> 

Yes... until 1st September.   
Yes... until 1st September.
No. 
Republic of Ireland 

> I also wanted to ask, why are so many of you so angry? 

<ralph-wiggum>I'm happy and angry!</ralph-wiggum>

> Is this because of your Lisp job or lack thereof?

A lisp job would be nice.  I'm available from 1st September!
But note something that will remove myself from many
people's consideration: I will no longer work on proprietary stuff
except maybe to port away from it.
From: Mark Hurd
Subject: Re: Comp.lang.lisp Census 2003
Date: 
Message-ID: <3f2c7036_1@news.iprimus.com.au>
·······@ziplip.com wrote:
> a. a job,
> b. an IT/programming job,
> c. a Lisp job

Yes, yes, no, but I'm using it (DotLisp) as a scripting language.

> And in what part of the world do you live?

South Australia (Adelaide)
-- 
Regards,
Mark Hurd, B.Sc.(Ma.) (Hons.)
From: Edward O'Connor
Subject: Re: Comp.lang.lisp Census 2003
Date: 
Message-ID: <dd1xw2pkf9.fsf@oecpc11.ucsd.edu>
> Do you have 
> 
> a. a job, 
> b. an IT/programming job, 
> c. a Lisp job 
> 
> And in what part of the world do you live?

Yes, Yes, No, USA (San Diego)


Ted

-- 
Edward O'Connor
·······@soe.ucsd.edu
From: Larry Clapp
Subject: Re: Comp.lang.lisp Census 2003
Date: 
Message-ID: <slrnbiqql9.77i.larry@theclapp.ddts.net>
In article <········································@ziplip.com>,
·······@ziplip.com wrote:
> If you pardon my intrusiveness,

I suppose ...

> Do you have 
> 
> a. a job, 
> b. an IT/programming job, 
> c. a Lisp job 

yes, yes, and yes, but only via Greenspun's Tenth Rule.  :-\

> And in what part of the world do you live?

Florida, USA

> I also wanted to ask, why are so many of you so angry? 
> Is this because of your Lisp job or lack thereof?

:)

-- 
Larry Clapp / ·····@theclapp.org
Use Lisp from Vim: VILisp: http://vim.sourceforge.net/script.php?script_id=221


-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =-----
From: Hartmann Schaffer
Subject: Re: Comp.lang.lisp Census 2003
Date: 
Message-ID: <3f2d8670@news.sentex.net>
In article <········································@ziplip.com>,
	········@ziplip.com" <·······@ziplip.com> writes:
> If you pardon my intrusiveness,
> 
> Do you have 
> 
> a. a job, 
> b. an IT/programming job, 
> c. a Lisp job 

yes, yes, o

> And in what part of the world do you live?

ontario (canada)

> I also wanted to ask, why are so many of you so angry? 
> Is this because of your Lisp job or lack thereof?

i read somewhere (scientific american?) a few years ago that the
tendency to get angry is controlled by a center in the brain that is
one of the first to weaken with aging.  so i'am always looking for a
reason to nurture and strengthen it ;-).  lack of opportunity to use
lisp on the job is as good a treason as any, maybe even better

hs

-- 

ceterum censeo SCO esse delendam
From: q u a s i
Subject: Re: Comp.lang.lisp Census 2003
Date: 
Message-ID: <2hiqivcd88vl7ndejf0d674qse71d259h7@4ax.com>
On Fri, 1 Aug 2003 00:23:56 -0700 (PDT), ········@ziplip.com"
<·······@ziplip.com> wrote:

>If you pardon my intrusiveness,
>
>Do you have 
>
>a. a job, 
>b. an IT/programming job, 
>c. a Lisp job 

NIL NIL NIL

>
>And in what part of the world do you live?

Mumbai(Bombay), India

>
>As to myself: Yes, Yes, No, USA
>
>I also wanted to ask, why are so many of you so angry? 
>Is this because of your Lisp job or lack thereof?

Anger keeps the blood flowing and brain cool.  Helps to program CL.

quasi

--
quasi
http://abhijit-rao.tripod.com/

"I slept with Faith, and found a corpse in my arms on awaking; I drank and danced all night with Doubt, and found her a virgin in the morning."
~ A. Crowley
From: Markus Fix
Subject: Re: Comp.lang.lisp Census 2003
Date: 
Message-ID: <3F2E224C.3040804@bookfix.com>
Yes, Yes, Yes, Germany



-- 
------- Markus Fix http://www.bookfix.com/ --------
Don't fight forces, use them. -R.Buckminster Fuller
From: Bernhard Pfahringer
Subject: Re: Comp.lang.lisp Census 2003
Date: 
Message-ID: <bglsq2$1sb$1@resnbo5.ai.univie.ac.at>
a. yes
b. kindof (CS lecturer)
c. partly (I am involved with the WEKA ML workbench which uses Java,
    but all my prototyping, one-off hacks, special-purpose coding etc.
    is usually done in CL, except for the odd Prolog bit :-)
d. godzone (aka NZ)

Bernhard
-- 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bernhard Pfahringer       Dept. of Computer Science, University of Waikato
http://www.cs.waikato.ac.nz/~bernhard                       +64 7 838 4041
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Tobias Andersson
Subject: Re: Comp.lang.lisp Census 2003
Date: 
Message-ID: <s4nsivg71qn92jaagl9m3eu85fdgvieq38@4ax.com>
Yes, Yes, No, Sweden

>I also wanted to ask, why are so many of you so angry? 

Angry? Nah, disillusioned maybe...

On Fri, 1 Aug 2003 00:23:56 -0700 (PDT), ········@ziplip.com"
<·······@ziplip.com> wrote:

>If you pardon my intrusiveness,
>
>Do you have 
>
>a. a job, 
>b. an IT/programming job, 
>c. a Lisp job 
>
>And in what part of the world do you live?
>
>As to myself: Yes, Yes, No, USA
>
>I also wanted to ask, why are so many of you so angry? 
>Is this because of your Lisp job or lack thereof?
From: Paolo Amoroso
Subject: Re: Comp.lang.lisp Census 2003
Date: 
Message-ID: <JrYuPz8sVOJ34ctybUOqpRWjIVHP@4ax.com>
On Fri, 1 Aug 2003 00:23:56 -0700 (PDT), ········@ziplip.com"
<·······@ziplip.com> wrote:

> Do you have 
> 
> a. a job, 
> b. an IT/programming job, 
> c. a Lisp job 

Yes, no, no.

May I ask to those who answer "yes" to question "c." to add an entry
(provided there are no confidentiality issues, of course) to the industrial
applications page at the ALU CLiki site?

  http://alu.cliki.net/Industry%20Application


> And in what part of the world do you live?

Milano, Italy.


> I also wanted to ask, why are so many of you so angry? 

We are not angry because we have:

d. a life


Paolo
-- 
Paolo Amoroso <·······@mclink.it>
From: Stephane Perrot
Subject: Re: Comp.lang.lisp Census 2003
Date: 
Message-ID: <b0eea380.0308050556.36dcb2c@posting.google.com>
········@ziplip.com" <·······@ziplip.com> wrote in message 

Yes, Yes, Yes (more or less), Paris/France
From: lin8080
Subject: Re: Comp.lang.lisp Census 2003
Date: 
Message-ID: <3F2F5EE4.A6EEBD59@freenet.de>
········@ziplip.com" schrieb:

> Do you have

> a. a job,
no
> b. an IT/programming job,
no
> c. a Lisp job
no
> And in what part of the world do you live?
+10�04'51"ol +48�50'08"nb +463,77m

> I also wanted to ask, why are so many of you so angry?
> Is this because of your Lisp job or lack thereof?

is that the opposite of having no patience, then the answer is no, else
what else?
no.

stefan

remember: intelligence is the most dangerous thing on earth.
From: Michael Sullivan
Subject: Re: Comp.lang.lisp Census 2003
Date: 
Message-ID: <1fz7xm1.9yjudj6l74hfN%michael@bcect.com>
·······@ziplip.com <·······@ziplip.com> wrote:

> If you pardon my intrusiveness,

> Do you have 

> a. a job, 
> b. an IT/programming job, 
> c. a Lisp job 


a) Yes, 
b) IT is part of it
c) Not at the moment, but since I make all the IT decisions -- if I come
up with a project using lisp that makes business sense, nothing will
stop me.  In general, I don't program for my business in lisp for the
same reason I don't program for it in C variants -- it takes a lot of
time to make something important happen, and it's too easy to make
incremental duct-tape and bailing wire improvements with applescript.
When the time comes that writing non-trivial software from scratch makes
business sense, I am likely to go with lisp.

> And in what part of the world do you live?

Connecticut, US.

> I also wanted to ask, why are so many of you so angry? 

Who is angry?
From: rydis (Martin Rydstr|m) @CD.Chalmers.SE
Subject: Re: Comp.lang.lisp Census 2003
Date: 
Message-ID: <w4cbruvvx84.fsf@haddock.cd.chalmers.se>
> ·······@ziplip.com <·······@ziplip.com> wrote:
> 
> > If you pardon my intrusiveness,
> 
> > Do you have 
> 
> > a. a job, 
> > b. an IT/programming job, 
> > c. a Lisp job 

No. No. No.
> 
> > And in what part of the world do you live?

Gothenburg, Sweden.

> > I also wanted to ask, why are so many of you so angry? 

I get annoyed and frustrated at seeing interfaces and computer systems
today that are, in almost every way, worse than stuff done years ago.

I'm not angry, though, although I sometimes tend towards harshness in
written media.

Regards,

'mr

-- 
[Emacs] is written in Lisp, which is the only computer language that is
beautiful.  -- Neal Stephenson, _In the Beginning was the Command Line_
From: William D Clinger
Subject: Re: Comp.lang.lisp Census 2003
Date: 
Message-ID: <fb74251e.0308051240.111b3c88@posting.google.com>
> Do you have 
> 
> a. a job, 
> b. an IT/programming job, 
> c. a Lisp job 

Yes, no, yes.

> And in what part of the world do you live?

In the first few meters above the surface, usually.

> I also wanted to ask, why are so many of you so angry? 

Okay.

> Is this because of your Lisp job or lack thereof?

I have no idea why you wanted to ask.

Will
From: c hore
Subject: Re: Comp.lang.lisp Census 2003
Date: 
Message-ID: <ca167c61.0308090155.2c4ef239@posting.google.com>
(T T T)

William D Clinger wrote:
> > And in what part of the world do you live?
> In the first few meters above the surface, usually.

Define surface.  Isn't that kind of a fractal concept,
and therefore a content-free answer?

This whole business of map projections and whatnot
is making me angry.  Why do geographic coordinate
systems have to be so complicated and subject to
contention and disagreement and politics.  Why can't
we just read off off a ·@#$%^ GPS that point X is
at lat and long and elevation so and so and be done
with it.  Why can't the ·@#$%^&*() earth just be a
·@#$%^&*() perfect sphere?

Are there any Lisp routines for conversion between
coordinate systems (e.g., WGS84, etc.) and for doing
differential correction?
From: lin8080
Subject: Re: Comp.lang.lisp Census 2003
Date: 
Message-ID: <3F35EC2D.41D2E004@freenet.de>
c hore schrieb:

> Are there any Lisp routines for conversion between
> coordinate systems (e.g., WGS84, etc.) and for doing
> differential correction?

or is there a command that returns the value of a 8x8 determinant (sum
of a matrix) ?

stefan
From: Pekka P. Pirinen
Subject: Re: Comp.lang.lisp Census 2003
Date: 
Message-ID: <ix7k5s3p8a.fsf@ocoee.cam.harlequin.co.uk>
T T NIL

Cambridge, UK

> I also wanted to ask, why are so many of you so angry? 

Defensiveness.  Many feel that Lisp is under attack (largely by
ignorance rather than malice, but it's hard to educate and easy to
attack).
-- 
Pekka P. Pirinen
The Risks of Electronic Communication
<http://www.multicians.org/thvv/emailbad.html>
From: John Fraser
Subject: Re: Comp.lang.lisp Census 2003
Date: 
Message-ID: <45XXa.11561$602.5882@nwrddc03.gnilink.net>
> Do you have
>
> a. a job,
> b. an IT/programming job,
> c. a Lisp job

Yes, Yes, No.

> And in what part of the world do you live?

USA

> I also wanted to ask, why are so many of you so angry?


I'm only angry on Mondays and during meetings.
From: Steven E. Harris
Subject: Re: Comp.lang.lisp Census 2003
Date: 
Message-ID: <q67he4uom43.fsf@raytheon.com>
········@ziplip.com" <·······@ziplip.com> writes:

> Do you have 
>
> a. a job,

Yes.

> b. an IT/programming job,

Yes.

> c. a Lisp job

No, not yet.

> And in what part of the world do you live?

San Diego, CA, USA.

> I also wanted to ask, why are so many of you so angry?
> Is this because of your Lisp job or lack thereof?

I'm more frustrated than angry, and having more Lisp in my life would
certainly be a relief. And so the search continues.

-- 
Steven E. Harris        :: ········@raytheon.com
Raytheon                :: http://www.raytheon.com
From: Joao Graca
Subject: Re: Comp.lang.lisp Census 2003
Date: 
Message-ID: <3F30C735.5070102@siscog.pt>
·······@ziplip.com wrote:
> If you pardon my intrusiveness,
> 
> Do you have 
> 
> a. a job, 
> b. an IT/programming job, 
> c. a Lisp job 
> 
> And in what part of the world do you live?
> 
> As to myself: Yes, Yes, No, USA
> 
> I also wanted to ask, why are so many of you so angry? 
> Is this because of your Lisp job or lack thereof?

yes, yes, yes, Portugal

I am not angry.... And i am new to this list.

PS: Do you know there is a university in Lisbon that forms around 200 
people per year with lisp experience.... There are lispers in Portugal 
also :)
From: Edi Weitz
Subject: Re: Comp.lang.lisp Census 2003
Date: 
Message-ID: <87fzkfrynv.fsf@bird.agharta.de>
On Wed, 06 Aug 2003 09:15:33 +0000, Joao Graca <······@siscog.pt> wrote:

> PS: Do you know there is a university in Lisbon that forms around
> 200 people per year with lisp experience....

Common Lisp or Scheme? Just curious.

Edi.
From: Joao Graca
Subject: Re: Comp.lang.lisp Census 2003
Date: 
Message-ID: <3F30D5EA.1060304@siscog.pt>
Scheme in "Introduction to programming", first year.
Lisp in the "artificial inteligence"(2nd year) and CLOS is firstly 
introduced in "complements of artificial inteligence"(2nd year).
Students that follow the artificial inteligence branch (like me) of the 
course have 4 or 5 more courses where lisp is the main language used.

Edi Weitz wrote:
> On Wed, 06 Aug 2003 09:15:33 +0000, Joao Graca <······@siscog.pt> wrote:
> 
> 
>>PS: Do you know there is a university in Lisbon that forms around
>>200 people per year with lisp experience....
> 
> 
> Common Lisp or Scheme? Just curious.
> 
> Edi.
From: Kenny Tilton
Subject: RoboCup! [was Re: Comp.lang.lisp Census 2003]
Date: 
Message-ID: <3F3104C8.9040806@nyc.rr.com>
Joao Graca wrote:
> 
> 
> ·······@ziplip.com wrote:
> 
>> If you pardon my intrusiveness,
>>
>> Do you have
>> a. a job, b. an IT/programming job, c. a Lisp job
>> And in what part of the world do you live?
>>
>> As to myself: Yes, Yes, No, USA
>>
>> I also wanted to ask, why are so many of you so angry? Is this because 
>> of your Lisp job or lack thereof?
> 
> 
> yes, yes, yes, Portugal
> 
> I am not angry.... And i am new to this list.
> 
> PS: Do you know there is a university in Lisbon that forms around 200 
> people per year with lisp experience.... There are lispers in Portugal 
> also :)
> 

Do they like soccer, too? The lisp-nyc group has two RoboCup sim ( 
http://www.uni-koblenz.de/%7Efruit/orga/rc03/ ) projects underway, an 
incipient one to port the C++ UVA TriLearn:

     http://carol.wins.uva.nl/~jellekok/robocup/2003/index_en.html)

...to CL, another (mine) from scratch (based on my Cells hack):

     http://www.tilton-technology.com/cells_top.html

..which is nearing alpha release (mebbe a week (two weeks if you want 
doc)). Watch this space.

The TriLearn port will be important because folks in the community like 
to stand on the shoulders of those who have gone before and not waste a 
lot of time re-inventing core capabilities. It's a collective AI 
research effort, with competitions just to measure progress. Having a CL 
version greases the skids for folks such as your Lisbon university who 
might like to take RoboCup back to its Lisp roots.

The only thing important about my effort is that it is further along, 
and of course it will look like Lisp. The incipient port will 
necessarily look like C++, but it will kick my team's butts for them, so 
that's good.

We did some for fun last night before heading out for R&R:

//* BEFORE:

Object* WorldModel::getObjectPtrFromType( ObjectT o )
{
   Object *object = NULL;
   if( o == OBJECT_ILLEGAL )
     return NULL;

   if( SoccerTypes::isKnownPlayer( o ) )
   {
     if( o == agentObject.getType() )
       object = &agentObject;
     else if( SoccerTypes::isTeammate( o ) )
       object = &Teammates[SoccerTypes::getIndex(o)];
     else
       object = &Opponents[SoccerTypes::getIndex(o)];
   }
   else if( SoccerTypes::isFlag( o ) )
     object = &Flags[SoccerTypes::getIndex(o)];
   else if( SoccerTypes::isLine( o ) )
     object = &Lines[SoccerTypes::getIndex(o)];
   else if( SoccerTypes::isBall( o ) )
     object = &Ball;
   else if( o == OBJECT_OPPONENT_GOALIE )
     return getObjectPtrFromType( getOppGoalieType() );
   else if( o == OBJECT_TEAMMATE_GOALIE )
     return getObjectPtrFromType( getOwnGoalieType() );
  return object;
}

;;; AFTER:

(defmethod get-object-ptr-From-Type ((o ObjectT) &aux (oix (getIndex o)))
   (case o
     (OBJECT_ILLEGAL nil)
     (isKnownPlayer
      (if (eql o (type-of agentObject))
           agentObject
         (aref (if (is-teammate o)
                   Teammates Opponents)
           oix)))
     (isFlag (aref Flags oix))
     (isLine (aref Lines oix))
     (isBall Ball)
     (otherwise
      (get-object-ptr-From-Type
       (if (eq o OBJECT_OPPONENT_GOALIE)
           (get-Opp-Goalie-Type)
         (when (eq o OBJECT_TEAMMATE_GOALIE)
           (get-Own-Goalie-Type)))))))


Come to think of it, maybe you are referring to http://www.liacc.up.pt/ 
or http://www.ua.pt/ ? They have produced http://www.ieeta.pt/robocup/ , 
a nice little simulation team.

-- 

  kenny tilton
  clinisys, inc
  http://www.tilton-technology.com/
  ---------------------------------------------------------------
"That's great, tell him he's Pel� and get him back on."
      - John Lambie, Partick Thistle manager, when told a concussed 
striker did not know who he was.
From: Joao Graca
Subject: Re: RoboCup! [was Re: Comp.lang.lisp Census 2003]
Date: 
Message-ID: <3F31264B.4020708@siscog.pt>
Kenny Tilton wrote:
> 
> 
> Joao Graca wrote:
> 
>>
>>
>> ·······@ziplip.com wrote:
>>
>>> If you pardon my intrusiveness,
>>>
>>> Do you have
>>> a. a job, b. an IT/programming job, c. a Lisp job
>>> And in what part of the world do you live?
>>>
>>> As to myself: Yes, Yes, No, USA
>>>
>>> I also wanted to ask, why are so many of you so angry? Is this 
>>> because of your Lisp job or lack thereof?
>>
>>
>>
>> yes, yes, yes, Portugal
>>
>> I am not angry.... And i am new to this list.
>>
>> PS: Do you know there is a university in Lisbon that forms around 200 
>> people per year with lisp experience.... There are lispers in Portugal 
>> also :)
>>
> 
> Do they like soccer, too? The lisp-nyc group has two RoboCup sim ( 
> http://www.uni-koblenz.de/%7Efruit/orga/rc03/ ) projects underway, an 
> incipient one to port the C++ UVA TriLearn:
> 
>     http://carol.wins.uva.nl/~jellekok/robocup/2003/index_en.html)
> 
> ...to CL, another (mine) from scratch (based on my Cells hack):
> 
>     http://www.tilton-technology.com/cells_top.html
> 
> ..which is nearing alpha release (mebbe a week (two weeks if you want 
> doc)). Watch this space.
> 
> The TriLearn port will be important because folks in the community like 
> to stand on the shoulders of those who have gone before and not waste a 
> lot of time re-inventing core capabilities. It's a collective AI 
> research effort, with competitions just to measure progress. Having a CL 
> version greases the skids for folks such as your Lisbon university who 
> might like to take RoboCup back to its Lisp roots.
> 
> The only thing important about my effort is that it is further along, 
> and of course it will look like Lisp. The incipient port will 
> necessarily look like C++, but it will kick my team's butts for them, so 
> that's good.
> 
> We did some for fun last night before heading out for R&R:
> 
> //* BEFORE:
> 
> Object* WorldModel::getObjectPtrFromType( ObjectT o )
> {
>   Object *object = NULL;
>   if( o == OBJECT_ILLEGAL )
>     return NULL;
> 
>   if( SoccerTypes::isKnownPlayer( o ) )
>   {
>     if( o == agentObject.getType() )
>       object = &agentObject;
>     else if( SoccerTypes::isTeammate( o ) )
>       object = &Teammates[SoccerTypes::getIndex(o)];
>     else
>       object = &Opponents[SoccerTypes::getIndex(o)];
>   }
>   else if( SoccerTypes::isFlag( o ) )
>     object = &Flags[SoccerTypes::getIndex(o)];
>   else if( SoccerTypes::isLine( o ) )
>     object = &Lines[SoccerTypes::getIndex(o)];
>   else if( SoccerTypes::isBall( o ) )
>     object = &Ball;
>   else if( o == OBJECT_OPPONENT_GOALIE )
>     return getObjectPtrFromType( getOppGoalieType() );
>   else if( o == OBJECT_TEAMMATE_GOALIE )
>     return getObjectPtrFromType( getOwnGoalieType() );
>  return object;
> }
> 
> ;;; AFTER:
> 
> (defmethod get-object-ptr-From-Type ((o ObjectT) &aux (oix (getIndex o)))
>   (case o
>     (OBJECT_ILLEGAL nil)
>     (isKnownPlayer
>      (if (eql o (type-of agentObject))
>           agentObject
>         (aref (if (is-teammate o)
>                   Teammates Opponents)
>           oix)))
>     (isFlag (aref Flags oix))
>     (isLine (aref Lines oix))
>     (isBall Ball)
>     (otherwise
>      (get-object-ptr-From-Type
>       (if (eq o OBJECT_OPPONENT_GOALIE)
>           (get-Opp-Goalie-Type)
>         (when (eq o OBJECT_TEAMMATE_GOALIE)
>           (get-Own-Goalie-Type)))))))
> 
> 
> Come to think of it, maybe you are referring to http://www.liacc.up.pt/ 
> or http://www.ua.pt/ ? They have produced http://www.ieeta.pt/robocup/ , 
> a nice little simulation team.
> 

No, i was talking about another university, namely instituto superior 
tecnico. mega.ist.utl.pt. I don't know if the other universities are 
having lisp also.
I tought this was interesting because some people from franz came to 
Portugal to show their webserver (allegroserve) and they were very 
admired with the fact that so many people learning lisp. Altough only a 
few work with it for professional purpose. I only know one company that 
works wit lisp in Portugal, and it is the one i am working in. So the 
rest of the lispers get lost with other jobs.
As for the robocup i have some friends makeing a Msc dealing with 
robocup but i don't think the are using lisp.
I also know some peopole at the university that use lisp all day and 
make some research projects on lisp but i don't know what they are 
currently working on.
From: Kenny Tilton
Subject: Re: RoboCup! [was Re: Comp.lang.lisp Census 2003]
Date: 
Message-ID: <3F311D04.60601@nyc.rr.com>
Joao Graca wrote:
> No, i was talking about another university, namely instituto superior 
> tecnico. mega.ist.utl.pt. I don't know if the other universities are 
> having lisp also.

I would guess not, because I think all the RoboCup sim activity is in 
C/C++ or Java. I know one team created a Prolog supervisor atop a C++ 
engine.

Which is sad, because the first RoboCup simulation server was written in 
lisp, and to this day communication is in the form of sexprs!!! I get a 
kick out of just using read-from-string to "parse" the input.

Anyway, the ALU wants to help the AI community with their research 
projects by making it easier for them to use a proper language. :) Hence 
the twin RoboLisp efforts, hence ILC2003:

    http://www.international-lisp-conference.org/

...hosting this year a RoboCup competition for functional language teams.

We here in lisp-nyc have jumped on the bandwagon, in part because one 
member is ALU Fearless Leader ray de lacaze, in part because we figured 
it would give our social club a little focus. and as the lucky one who 
had time on his hands and managed to get some quick results, I can tell 
you it is a real hoot giving a simulated robot a couple of mindless 
instructions and then observing the emergent behavior as they seem to 
play halfway intelligently.

Right now I am polishing a core starter client to make it possible for 
anyone to goof around with little soccerbots without worrying about 
details such as server synchronization, or even maintaining a world 
model. As I mentioned, the rest of the gang is porting an established 
high-quality client from C++ to Lisp.

We plan to give these things away so other lispniks can get involved. 
And anyone interested in pitching in should get in touch (thru me if you 
like). We can use help, either on getting a lot of C++ translated to 
Lisp or getting a very bad soccer player (mine) to play at least the 
semblance of a good game.

> I tought this was interesting because some people from franz came to 
> Portugal to show their webserver (allegroserve) and they were very 
> admired with the fact that so many people learning lisp. Altough only a 
> few work with it for professional purpose. I only know one company that 
> works wit lisp in Portugal, and it is the one i am working in. So the 
> rest of the lispers get lost with other jobs.

That's OK, it is just a matter of time. And a big Lisp head count, even 
if just hobbyist, is a great sign. A grass roots rediscovery of CL has 
begun, time to put Lisp back on the resume.

> As for the robocup i have some friends makeing a Msc dealing with 
> robocup but i don't think the are using lisp.
> I also know some peopole at the university that use lisp all day and 
> make some research projects on lisp but i don't know what they are 
> currently working on.
> 

Could you mention to them our RoboLisp project? We could use some help, 
or just moral support.

And even if they cannot help, I am having so much fun with RoboCup that 
I plan to continue this effort even after ILC2003. RoboCells (yes, Cells 
included) will have a sourceforge page RSN (and will be available on my 
web page even sooner as a simple Zip). I plan to start a RoboCup ladder 
so folks can pair off at will for matches, trying to work their way up 
the ladder. Anyone can download a soccerserver binary and monitor binary 
and run a match over the net.

Anyone interested, plz get in touch. Game on!

:)

-- 

  kenny tilton
  clinisys, inc
  http://www.tilton-technology.com/
  ---------------------------------------------------------------
"Career highlights? I had two. I got an intentional walk from
Sandy Koufax and I got out of a rundown against the Mets."
                                                  -- Bob Uecker
From: Alexandre Mateus
Subject: Re: RoboCup! [was Re: Comp.lang.lisp Census 2003]
Date: 
Message-ID: <3F312DEE.8070908@sapo.pt>
Hello,
I am Joao's friend and have been discussing with him on this subject, 
which we find very interesting.
We've remembered that, if you would write something stating what you are 
doing and what you need help for, we could pass it on to a mailing list 
of our former university colleagues (which are about 50) that have a lot 
of interest in Lisp.
It could be taken as a chalenge, or at least a hobby, for some of them, 
as well as for me and Jo�o. I think that, ate least, the ones actually 
working on RoboCup would find it quite interesting.
If you would like to, please send me or Jo�o a mail, our contacts:
  Alex (me) - ·········@sapo.pt
  Jo�o - ·········@netcabo.pt

Thanx
----------------------
Alex


Kenny Tilton wrote:
> 
> 
> Joao Graca wrote:
> 
>> No, i was talking about another university, namely instituto superior 
>> tecnico. mega.ist.utl.pt. I don't know if the other universities are 
>> having lisp also.
> 
> 
> I would guess not, because I think all the RoboCup sim activity is in 
> C/C++ or Java. I know one team created a Prolog supervisor atop a C++ 
> engine.
> 
> Which is sad, because the first RoboCup simulation server was written in 
> lisp, and to this day communication is in the form of sexprs!!! I get a 
> kick out of just using read-from-string to "parse" the input.
> 
> Anyway, the ALU wants to help the AI community with their research 
> projects by making it easier for them to use a proper language. :) Hence 
> the twin RoboLisp efforts, hence ILC2003:
> 
>    http://www.international-lisp-conference.org/
> 
> ...hosting this year a RoboCup competition for functional language teams.
> 
> We here in lisp-nyc have jumped on the bandwagon, in part because one 
> member is ALU Fearless Leader ray de lacaze, in part because we figured 
> it would give our social club a little focus. and as the lucky one who 
> had time on his hands and managed to get some quick results, I can tell 
> you it is a real hoot giving a simulated robot a couple of mindless 
> instructions and then observing the emergent behavior as they seem to 
> play halfway intelligently.
> 
> Right now I am polishing a core starter client to make it possible for 
> anyone to goof around with little soccerbots without worrying about 
> details such as server synchronization, or even maintaining a world 
> model. As I mentioned, the rest of the gang is porting an established 
> high-quality client from C++ to Lisp.
> 
> We plan to give these things away so other lispniks can get involved. 
> And anyone interested in pitching in should get in touch (thru me if you 
> like). We can use help, either on getting a lot of C++ translated to 
> Lisp or getting a very bad soccer player (mine) to play at least the 
> semblance of a good game.
> 
>> I tought this was interesting because some people from franz came to 
>> Portugal to show their webserver (allegroserve) and they were very 
>> admired with the fact that so many people learning lisp. Altough only 
>> a few work with it for professional purpose. I only know one company 
>> that works wit lisp in Portugal, and it is the one i am working in. So 
>> the rest of the lispers get lost with other jobs.
> 
> 
> That's OK, it is just a matter of time. And a big Lisp head count, even 
> if just hobbyist, is a great sign. A grass roots rediscovery of CL has 
> begun, time to put Lisp back on the resume.
> 
>> As for the robocup i have some friends makeing a Msc dealing with 
>> robocup but i don't think the are using lisp.
>> I also know some peopole at the university that use lisp all day and 
>> make some research projects on lisp but i don't know what they are 
>> currently working on.
>>
> 
> Could you mention to them our RoboLisp project? We could use some help, 
> or just moral support.
> 
> And even if they cannot help, I am having so much fun with RoboCup that 
> I plan to continue this effort even after ILC2003. RoboCells (yes, Cells 
> included) will have a sourceforge page RSN (and will be available on my 
> web page even sooner as a simple Zip). I plan to start a RoboCup ladder 
> so folks can pair off at will for matches, trying to work their way up 
> the ladder. Anyone can download a soccerserver binary and monitor binary 
> and run a match over the net.
> 
> Anyone interested, plz get in touch. Game on!
> 
> :)
> 
From: Samir
Subject: Re: Comp.lang.lisp Census 2003
Date: 
Message-ID: <bgqe7j$2vi$1@news1.transmedia.de>
·······@ziplip.com wrote:

> If you pardon my intrusiveness,
> 
> Do you have
> 
> a. a job,
> b. an IT/programming job,
> c. a Lisp job
> 
> And in what part of the world do you live?
> 
> As to myself: Yes, Yes, No, USA

yes, yes, yes, Germany

> I also wanted to ask, why are so many of you so angry?
> Is this because of your Lisp job or lack thereof?

not angry at all :)
From: Christian Nyb�
Subject: Re: Comp.lang.lisp Census 2003
Date: 
Message-ID: <sik3cgfm66h.fsf@grace.uio.no>
········@ziplip.com" <·······@ziplip.com> writes:

> If you pardon my intrusiveness,
> 
> Do you have 
> 
> a. a job, 
> b. an IT/programming job, 
> c. a Lisp job 

no, no, no, Zambia (Southern Africa)

> 
> And in what part of the world do you live?
> 
> As to myself: Yes, Yes, No, USA
> 
> I also wanted to ask, why are so many of you so angry? 
> Is this because of your Lisp job or lack thereof?


I study introductory AI using CL, and I'm quite happy with it.
-- 
chr
From: Thomas Stenhaug
Subject: Re: Comp.lang.lisp Census 2003
Date: 
Message-ID: <ad4540ee.0308061206.3aceaab1@posting.google.com>
········@ziplip.com" <·······@ziplip.com> wrote: 

> a. a job, 
> b. an IT/programming job, 
> c. a Lisp job 
> And in what part of the world do you live?

Yes, yes, mostly, France.


Thomas
From: Heather Coppersmith
Subject: Re: Comp.lang.lisp Census 2003
Date: 
Message-ID: <m2zniloibw.fsf@host200-null.null.bellsouth.net>
On Fri, 1 Aug 2003 00:23:56 -0700 (PDT),
········@ziplip.com" <·······@ziplip.com> wrote:

> a. a job, 

Full time student, spouse, *and* parent.

> b. an IT/programming job, 

Not any more.  Maybe later.

> c. a Lisp job 

No, unless you count my ever-growing .emacs.el file.

> And in what part of the world do you live?

USA.

> I also wanted to ask, why are so many of you so angry? 
> Is this because of your Lisp job or lack thereof?

I have no idea why so many of *you* are angry.

Regards,
Heather

-- 
Heather Coppersmith
That's not right; that's not even wrong. -- Wolfgang Pauli
From: tony
Subject: Re: Comp.lang.lisp Census 2003
Date: 
Message-ID: <34175232.0308070948.173a0e06@posting.google.com>
········@ziplip.com" <·······@ziplip.com> wrote in message news:<········································@ziplip.com>...
> If you pardon my intrusiveness,
> 
> Do you have 
> 
> a. a job, 

yes
> b. an IT/programming job, 

si
> c. a Lisp job 

i am able to use whatever i need to to get the job done... as long as
noone finds out about it ;)
> 
> And in what part of the world do you live?

usa

> 
> I also wanted to ask, why are so many of you so angry? 

you think this board has some angry folks, you should go over to one
of the perl boards.  sheeeeesh!
From: Gary Klimowicz
Subject: Re: Comp.lang.lisp Census 2003
Date: 
Message-ID: <ullu5e05u.fsf@C1799538-A.attbi.com>
········@ziplip.com" <·······@ziplip.com> writes:

> If you pardon my intrusiveness,
>
> Do you have 
>
> a. a job, 
> b. an IT/programming job, 
> c. a Lisp job 

Yes. Yes. No, but I wish I did.

> And in what part of the world do you live?

Oregon USA

> As to myself: Yes, Yes, No, USA
>
> I also wanted to ask, why are so many of you so angry? 
> Is this because of your Lisp job or lack thereof?

As a lurker, it seems mostly from answering the same
questions over and over again, for people who aren't
really interested in learning from the answers...

-- 
gak
From: Lars Brinkhoff
Subject: Re: Comp.lang.lisp Census 2003
Date: 
Message-ID: <85adal5ozl.fsf@junk.nocrew.org>
········@ziplip.com" <·······@ziplip.com> writes:
> Do you have 
> a. a job, 
> b. an IT/programming job, 
> c. a Lisp job 
> And in what part of the world do you live?

Yes (self-employed).  Yes.  No.  Sweden.

-- 
Lars Brinkhoff,         Services for Unix, Linux, GCC, PDP-10, HTTP
Brinkhoff Consulting    http://www.brinkhoff.se/
From: ······@panix.com
Subject: Re: Comp.lang.lisp Census 2003
Date: 
Message-ID: <lhrlltz5ymq.fsf@panix2.panix.com>
········@ziplip.com" <·······@ziplip.com> asks:
> a. a job, 
> b. an IT/programming job, 
> c. a Lisp job 

   t, t, nil, N37.83178 W122.27828 and I generally pretty happy.

harley.
From: mogni pardesi
Subject: Re: Comp.lang.lisp Census 2003
Date: 
Message-ID: <1f604f52.0308180413.62b91f90@posting.google.com>
········@ziplip.com" <·······@ziplip.com> wrote in message news:<········································@ziplip.com>...
> If you pardon my intrusiveness,
> 

pardon granted

> Do you have 
> 
> a. a job, 

self employed, so it's like having ten jobs

> b. an IT/programming job, 


it's one of my ten jobs,

> c. a Lisp job 
> 

hmmm, what if there were a language named Blow?


> And in what part of the world do you live?
> 

New York


> As to myself: Yes, Yes, No, USA
> 
> I also wanted to ask, why are so many of you so angry? 


Modern man is angry because he has been torn from the bosom of nature
and thrown into industrialized wage slavery.


> Is this because of your Lisp job or lack thereof?

Indirectly maybe.


Off topic perhaps, but I pose my own question.  What operating system
does Bill Gates use on his personal computer?  This is a serious
question.  If you were the richest man on earth, would you use
windows?