Is their any fully compliant ANSI Lisp system with CLIM that would allow
me to deliver an application on Windows, Mac, and Linux?
Does CLISP create standalone apps.?
Could I port my CL + CLIM code to C so I could compile the C on the verious
platforms?
Or, would I have to get MCL + CLIM for the Mac and LispWorks + CLIM or
Allegro CL + CLIM for the Windows, and Linux machine?
What platform would be the best for development?
And, are they any packages so that sockets, file operations, etc. would
also be portable across platforms?
Is their one system that would deliver executables on all of the platforms,
or must I use a diff. tool for each platform?
"Paul F. Dietz" <·····@dls.net> wrote in message
···························@dls.net...
> Franz Kafka wrote:
>
> > Is their any fully compliant ANSI Lisp system
>
> No. :)
>
What features are lacking? What Lisp system complies
with most of the ANSI CL Specs.
How complete is LispWorks, Allegro CL, Genera 8.3, MCL, GCL, CMUCL, CLISP,
CORMAN?
In other words which of the above systems is most compilant; If I neglected
to discuss your dialect please
tell me what it is and how complete it is. Thanks.
From: Paul F. Dietz
Subject: Re: ANSI Comp. and Cross Platform Delivery ????????????????????????
Date:
Message-ID: <LrmdnVecR8i9nTGjXTWcoA@dls.net>
Franz Kafka wrote:
> What features are lacking? What Lisp system complies
> with most of the ANSI CL Specs.
>
> How complete is LispWorks, Allegro CL, Genera 8.3, MCL, GCL, CMUCL, CLISP,
> CORMAN?
Sorry, but I'm going to decline to answer these questions. I don't
personally want to get into a dispute between implementations.
Paul
"Paul F. Dietz" <·····@dls.net> wrote in message
···························@dls.net...
> Franz Kafka wrote:
>
> > What features are lacking? What Lisp system complies
> > with most of the ANSI CL Specs.
> >
> > How complete is LispWorks, Allegro CL, Genera 8.3, MCL, GCL, CMUCL,
CLISP,
> > CORMAN?
>
> Sorry, but I'm going to decline to answer these questions. I don't
> personally want to get into a dispute between implementations.
>
> Paul
>
I am looking to start developing in Lisp. Could you please e-mail me an
answer. I really don't want a flame war; it's so hard to find the answers I
need. But, could you send me a mail telling me the features of each Lisp.
Thank you very much.
PS
Break it down by:
CLtL1, CLtL2, ANSI compliance.
plus extras
MOP, CLtL2 Series, DefSystem, CLOS, CLIM, etc.
Thanks.
"Franz Kafka" <·································@hotmail.com> writes:
> "Paul F. Dietz" <·····@dls.net> wrote in message
> ···························@dls.net...
> > Franz Kafka wrote:
> >
> > > What features are lacking? What Lisp system complies
> > > with most of the ANSI CL Specs.
> > >
> > > How complete is LispWorks, Allegro CL, Genera 8.3, MCL, GCL, CMUCL,
> CLISP,
> > > CORMAN?
> >
> > Sorry, but I'm going to decline to answer these questions. I don't
> > personally want to get into a dispute between implementations.
> >
> > Paul
> >
>
> I am looking to start developing in Lisp. Could you please e-mail me an
> answer. I really don't want a flame war; it's so hard to find the answers I
> need. But, could you send me a mail telling me the features of each Lisp.
>
> Thank you very much.
>
> PS
>
> Break it down by:
> CLtL1, CLtL2, ANSI compliance.
>
> plus extras
> MOP, CLtL2 Series, DefSystem, CLOS, CLIM, etc.
>
In what way will these answers be helpful? If you want to start using
Common Lisp to develop applications, first learn Common Lisp. Install
Clisp or CMUCL, or perhaps the free demo versions of Lispworks,
Allegro or Corman Lisp. For documentation, download and use the
Hyperspec, available from www.lispworks.com- the two cltls are useful
sometimes but should not be your principal reference.
The extras and subtlties you mention are more or less irrelevant until
you have a good bit of experience. Your question is essentially
equivalent to someone asking about details of the STL before actually
using C++.
Gregm
>
> In what way will these answers be helpful? If you want to start using
> Common Lisp to develop applications, first learn Common Lisp. Install
> Clisp or CMUCL, or perhaps the free demo versions of Lispworks,
> Allegro or Corman Lisp. For documentation, download and use the
> Hyperspec, available from www.lispworks.com- the two cltls are useful
> sometimes but should not be your principal reference.
>
> The extras and subtlties you mention are more or less irrelevant until
> you have a good bit of experience. Your question is essentially
> equivalent to someone asking about details of the STL before actually
> using C++.
>
> Gregm
>
I have been programming in Common LISP for about a year.
I've used Genera 8.0 at work.
What I am intrested in is creating CL code that is platform-independant
I know I can use
#+(LispVerson) (dependant-func ...)
as a start.
But, I'd like to be able to create a ANSI CL/CLOS application that uses CLIM
as a interface manager and is portable to:
Mac, Windows, and Linux/Unix.
Is there a Lisp System that can produce applications for Mac, Windows, and
Linux or would I need to
use three different systems.
What Lisp Systems would be the best?
NOTE: I like to know if there is a tool that would allow Genera 8.x to
deliver apps. on Mac, Windows, and Linux systems.
Most of LISP System's I've tried seemed to lack certain features including
but not limited to: MACROLET, FLET, PROGV, LABELS, etc.
"Franz Kafka" <·································@hotmail.com> writes:
> >
> > In what way will these answers be helpful? If you want to start using
> > Common Lisp to develop applications, first learn Common Lisp. Install
> > Clisp or CMUCL, or perhaps the free demo versions of Lispworks,
> > Allegro or Corman Lisp. For documentation, download and use the
> > Hyperspec, available from www.lispworks.com- the two cltls are useful
> > sometimes but should not be your principal reference.
> >
> > The extras and subtlties you mention are more or less irrelevant until
> > you have a good bit of experience. Your question is essentially
> > equivalent to someone asking about details of the STL before actually
> > using C++.
> >
> > Gregm
> >
>
> I have been programming in Common LISP for about a year.
> I've used Genera 8.0 at work.
> What I am intrested in is creating CL code that is platform-independant
>
> I know I can use
> #+(LispVerson) (dependant-func ...)
> as a start.
>
> But, I'd like to be able to create a ANSI CL/CLOS application that uses CLIM
> as a interface manager and is portable to:
> Mac, Windows, and Linux/Unix.
>
> Is there a Lisp System that can produce applications for Mac, Windows, and
> Linux or would I need to
> use three different systems.
>
> What Lisp Systems would be the best?
>
> NOTE: I like to know if there is a tool that would allow Genera 8.x to
> deliver apps. on Mac, Windows, and Linux systems.
>
> Most of LISP System's I've tried seemed to lack certain features including
> but not limited to: MACROLET, FLET, PROGV, LABELS, etc.
Have a look at the vendor websites. Lispworks and Allegro support
Linux & Windows, AFAIK Xanalys is beta testing Lispworks for Mac.
Corman Lisp is well regarded, but is Windows only.
Gregm
From: Tim Daly, Jr.
Subject: Re: ANSI Comp. and Cross Platform Delivery ????????????????????????
Date:
Message-ID: <87sms3qz9j.fsf@tenkan.org>
"Franz Kafka" <·································@hotmail.com> writes:
...
> But, I'd like to be able to create a ANSI CL/CLOS application that uses CLIM
> as a interface manager and is portable to:
> Mac, Windows, and Linux/Unix.
...
Contribute to McClim. Stick to Common Lisp, and isolate your
implementation dependant bits. There's a reason that we have Common
Lisp -- so that you are not tied to one implementation. Common. It's
the halfway point where you should be able to meet every vendor.
In case you're really considering embarking on a major commercial
project, I'm sure you've considered actually contacting a Lisp vendor.
It might prove more fruitful than merely trawling c.l.l.
Oh, and don't forget: Before you can produce a useful, cross-platform
GUI app with CL, you're going to have to convince somebody who knows
some CL to code for you. We've been known to do it for money.
-Tim
--
"Franz Kafka" wrote:
> What I am interested in is creating CL code that is
> platform-independent.
Then get a copy of the HyperSpec and check what you do
against that! You don't need any sort of special Lisp
implementation to write portable code.
> But, I'd like to be able to create a ANSI CL/CLOS application
> that uses CLIM as a interface manager and is portable to:
> Mac, Windows, and Linux/Unix.
That's harder. You'd want MCL on the Mac; you can get
a CLIM implementation from the MCL people for a reasonable
price. LispWorks and Allegro both (1) run on Windows and
Linux and (2) have CLIM implementations.
> NOTE: I like to know if there is a tool that would allow Genera 8.x to
> deliver apps. on Mac, Windows, and Linux systems.
That seems very, very unlikely.
> Most of LISP System's I've tried seemed to lack certain features including
> but not limited to: MACROLET, FLET, PROGV, LABELS, etc.
I have never used anything that calls itself Common Lisp
and lacks any of those. There are other languages in the
Lisp family that don't have all those (Emacs Lisp, Scheme
and AutoLisp, for instance, though I expect Emacs Lisp
has them if you do (require 'cl)), but being bothered about
that would be a bit like being bothered about using templates
in C++ because C and Objective-C compilers don't support them.
All of the following systems will have the features you
list, for instance: CMU CL, CLISP, Allegro CL, LispWorks,
MCL, OpenMCL, SBCL, Corman Lisp, ECL, GCL, Symbolics
Common Lisp. I think I just listed all the major CL
implementations that are in any sense alive today;
if I missed some, I suggest you pretend they're in the
list. The features you mention are *not* ones that
CL implementations commonly lack.
--
Gareth McCaughan ················@pobox.com
.sig under construc
From: Edi Weitz
Subject: Re: ANSI Comp. and Cross Platform Delivery ????????????????????????
Date:
Message-ID: <87vfwzodkc.fsf@bird.agharta.de>
Gareth McCaughan <················@pobox.com> writes:
> All of the following systems will have the features you list, for
> instance: CMU CL, CLISP, Allegro CL, LispWorks, MCL, OpenMCL, SBCL,
> Corman Lisp, ECL, GCL, Symbolics Common Lisp. I think I just listed
> all the major CL implementations that are in any sense alive today;
> if I missed some, I suggest you pretend they're in the list.
Scieneer Common Lisp - just to make the list more complete.
Edi.
From: Barry Wilkes
Subject: Re: ANSI Comp. and Cross Platform Delivery ????????????????????????
Date:
Message-ID: <fzo3zq92.fsf@acm.org>
"Franz Kafka" <·································@hotmail.com> writes:
>
> I have been programming in Common LISP for about a year.
> I've used Genera 8.0 at work.
You lucky, lucky guy (meant with all sincerity).
> What I am intrested in is creating CL code that is platform-independant
>
> I know I can use
> #+(LispVerson) (dependant-func ...)
> as a start.
>
> But, I'd like to be able to create a ANSI CL/CLOS application that uses CLIM
> as a interface manager and is portable to:
> Mac, Windows, and Linux/Unix.
If you really are using Genera at work, I would say that the CLIM support you
see on this platform is likely to be far better than that on the other
commercial implementations.
> Is there a Lisp System that can produce applications for Mac, Windows, and
> Linux or would I need to
> use three different systems.
If that is your primary concern, then I guess portability of the GUI layer is
the real issue. I suggest talking to Xanalys regarding the timeline of their
Mac OS X release of LispWorks. Then I would suggest using LispWorks and CAPI
rather than CLIM to deliver the UI.
>
> Most of LISP System's I've tried seemed to lack certain features including
> but not limited to: MACROLET, FLET, PROGV, LABELS, etc.
>
These are all part of ANSI Common Lisp. Use an implementation of this.
--
If in the last few years you haven't discarded a major opinion or
acquired a new one, check your pulse. You may be dead.
-- Gelett Burgess (1866-1951)
From: Tim Bradshaw
Subject: Re: ANSI Comp. and Cross Platform Delivery ????????????????????????
Date:
Message-ID: <ey3of2ru29z.fsf@cley.com>
* Franz Kafka wrote:
> I have been programming in Common LISP for about a year.
> I've used Genera 8.0 at work.
> But, I'd like to be able to create a ANSI CL/CLOS application that uses CLIM
> as a interface manager and is portable to:
> Mac, Windows, and Linux/Unix.
If you want to use CLIM then you are outside the realm of ANSI
conformance. Personally, I think that using CLIM is more trouble than
it's worth, though I'm sure there are reasonable differences here.
I suspect that, in the commercial arena, both LW and Allegro will
support CLIM (if not now then quite soon: ask them!) on all these
platforms. LW at least will also support their own GUI framework
compatibly on them all (again, soon: I understand that the mac port is
in beta), and I think Allegro may do so (ask!).
In the noncommercial arena I don't know of any implementation which
will run on all these platforms and will support CLIM - I suspect
CLISP runs on all the platforms, but I don't think it supports CLIM.
> What Lisp Systems would be the best?
They are all good. Try them, and stop asking inflammatory and stupid
questions.
There is no question that all the CL implementations have *some* ANSI
nonconformances (indeed, given that the spec is almost certainly not
completely consistent, this is probably inevitable). However there is
no useful sense in which you can say that implementation x is `more
conformant' than implementation y without a metric on conformance, and
no useful metric exists. If implementation x has some deviance in
pathnames, and implementation y has an obscure pretty-printer bug,
which is less conformant?
Two much more useful questions to ask are: (1) can you write usefully
portable programs within the spec for existing implementations?
(2) how good are the providers of these implementations at fixing, or
providing workarounds for, nonconformances? The answer to (1) is, in
my experience, `yes'. The answer to (2) is, again in my experience
`generally very good'.
Despite the endless whining that goes on in CLL, the existing
implementations are generally very good, and the quality of support
available for all the commercial ones I've used is also excellent.
Why not try *using them to write programs*?
> Most of LISP System's I've tried seemed to lack certain features
> including but not limited to: MACROLET, FLET, PROGV, LABELS, etc.
No Common Lisp implementation I'm aware of lacks these (well: if it
did it wouldn't be a Common Lisp...).
--tim
From: Edi Weitz
Subject: Re: ANSI Comp. and Cross Platform Delivery ????????????????????????
Date:
Message-ID: <87el3p5mb8.fsf@bird.agharta.de>
·································@hotmail.com (Franz Kafka) writes:
> Is their any fully compliant ANSI Lisp system with CLIM that would
> allow me to deliver an application on Windows, Mac, and Linux?
I think AllegroCL can do that although AFAIK their Mac Version doesn't
support the native GUI and uses X instead. Please correct me if I'm
wrong.
With Xanalys Lispworks you can deliver CLIM or CAPI (their proprietary
GUI toolkit) apps for Windows and Linux and they're currently
beta-testing a Mac version which'll support CAPI for Mac (native GUI
_and_ X). I don't know if it'll also support CLIM but I think it will
- ask them.
In both cases, "Mac" means "Mac OS X".
> Does CLISP create standalone apps.?
CLISP, the implementation? No.
> Could I port my CL + CLIM code to C so I could compile the C on the
> verious platforms?
No. (Well, at least not in an automated way. Of course you can do that
if you have unlimited spare time...)
> Or, would I have to get MCL + CLIM for the Mac and LispWorks + CLIM
> or Allegro CL + CLIM for the Windows, and Linux machine?
Maybe you could do something like that but I don't think the CLIM
parts will be fully portable - you'll have to do some manual tweaking.
> What platform would be the best for development?
You decide...
> And, are they any packages so that sockets, file operations,
> etc. would also be portable across platforms?
File operations are part of the ANSI standard. All major commercial CL
implementations have socket support and this is definitely
cross-platform as long as you stay with one vendor.
If you prefer to use different implementations for different operating
systems you might want to look at compatibility packages like
acl-compat (included with Portable AllegroServe).
> Is their one system that would deliver executables on all of the
> platforms, or must I use a diff. tool for each platform?
AllegroCL or Lispworks, see above.
Edi.
From: Paolo Amoroso
Subject: Re: ANSI Comp. and Cross Platform Delivery ????????????????????????
Date:
Message-ID: <YtCrPtGOvM3Ue7Aw8TE2Cpa2jkZ8@4ax.com>
On 26 Apr 2003 06:23:16 -0700,
·································@hotmail.com (Franz Kafka) wrote:
> Is their any fully compliant ANSI Lisp system with CLIM that would allow
> me to deliver an application on Windows, Mac, and Linux?
>
> Does CLISP create standalone apps.?
If your mention of CLISP is related to the possible use of CLIM, note that
McCLIM does not run under CLISP.
Paolo
--
Paolo Amoroso <·······@mclink.it>