Is it just me, or does this newsgroup contain an _extraordinary_ amount of
postings completely off-topic and not related to LISP?
I've also noticed a lot of bickering and hostility.
Has it always been like this?
--
Justin Johnson
"Justin Johnson" <·······@mobiusent.com> wrote in message news:<··················@dyke.uk.clara.net>...
> Is it just me, or does this newsgroup contain an _extraordinary_ amount of
> postings completely off-topic and not related to LISP?
The off topic bit is due to a newcomer/troll.
> I've also noticed a lot of bickering and hostility.
>
> Has it always been like this?
The hostility has been a prominent part of this newsgroup for a number
of years. I'll leave it to your own judgement to determine who is/are
the source(s) of hostility, since pointing fingers will only lead to
another round of flames.
"Justin Johnson" <·······@mobiusent.com> writes:
> Is it just me, or does this newsgroup contain an _extraordinary_ amount of
> postings completely off-topic and not related to LISP?
>
> I've also noticed a lot of bickering and hostility.
>
> Has it always been like this?
Yes. Bear in mind, it actually *is* September, after all.
--
Johan KULLSTAM <··········@attbi.com> sysengr
On Thu, 26 Sep 2002 10:38:28 +0100,
Justin Johnson <·······@mobiusent.com> wrote:
>
> Is it just me, or does this newsgroup contain an _extraordinary_ amount of
> postings completely off-topic and not related to LISP?
it's the season ... the low pressure system i3s
is causing some heavy storms right now.
>
> I've also noticed a lot of bickering and hostility.
>
> Has it always been like this?
Some newsgroups are like Italian lakes
with only minor ripples gently spreading
across the surface.
Some newsgroups are like the North Sea
with icy autumn gales.
Some are like Kap Horne, where all you can
do is keep westwards or perish.
Then there's c.l.l... just kidding.
c.l.l. hash a rougher climate than some other,
but you'll get used to it, yea, even like it.
s.
"Justin Johnson" <·······@mobiusent.com> writes:
> Has it always been like this?
No, just since the current troll-of-the-month showed up.
--
··········@acm.org phone:+49-7031-464-7698 (TELNET 778-7698)
http://www.bawue.de/~jjk/ fax:+49-7031-464-7351
PGP: 06 04 1C 35 7B DC 1F 26 As the air to a bird, or the sea to a fish,
0x555DA8B5 BB A2 F0 66 77 75 E1 08 so is contempt to the contemptible. [Blake]
> Is it just me, or does this newsgroup contain an _extraordinary_
> amount of postings completely off-topic and not related to LISP?
>
> I've also noticed a lot of bickering and hostility.
>
> Has it always been like this?
Yes, it always has.
Lisp aficionados are a multi-faceted and highly intelligent bunch of
people. Thus they often discuss things that to mere mortals seem off
topic, but are actually merely lesser-known aspects of Lisp.
Also, committed Lisp users desire to make it possible for everyone to
know how good Lisp really is. In order to do that, it is necessary to
suppress all dissent, even of such a mild form as asserting that
Scheme is Lisp.
Here is a quotation from a long-time Lisp guru, which I feel gives the
new CLL reader an excellent feel for the atmosphere of the group:
I can see you're going to do just *fine* here in comp.lang.lisp.
I'm rather looking forward to the ritual disembowelling, in
particular, although the bit were we chop your arms and legs off
and feed them to crocodiles is also good.
This quotation is from Tim Bradshaw, and I hope he doesn't feed me to
the crocodiles for using it.
--
Fred Gilham ······@csl.sri.com
I'm skeptical about attempts to proclaim hell to people that don't
already have the taste of it in their mouths. Hell as the ultimate
loss of relationship, of health, of even sanity, makes sense to
someone who already sees the beginnings of that process taking hold in
his own life. Hell as an imaginary place that is like being sent to
your room for a long, long time, with the heat turned up really high,
doesn't make sense.
* Fred Gilham wrote:
> Here is a quotation from a long-time Lisp guru, which I feel gives the
> new CLL reader an excellent feel for the atmosphere of the group:
> I can see you're going to do just *fine* here in comp.lang.lisp.
> I'm rather looking forward to the ritual disembowelling, in
> particular, although the bit were we chop your arms and legs off
> and feed them to crocodiles is also good.
> This quotation is from Tim Bradshaw, and I hope he doesn't feed me to
> the crocodiles for using it.
The black helicopters will arrive shortly. Please offer no resistance.
Fred Gilham wrote:
>>Is it just me, or does this newsgroup contain an _extraordinary_
>>amount of postings completely off-topic and not related to LISP?
>>
>>I've also noticed a lot of bickering and hostility.
>>
>>Has it always been like this?
>
>
> Yes, it always has.
>
> Lisp aficionados are a multi-faceted and highly intelligent bunch of
> people. Thus they often discuss things that to mere mortals seem off
> topic, but are actually merely lesser-known aspects of Lisp.
yes. but i think the OP wanted to know about the people that post *here*
in c.l.l.
>
> Also, committed Lisp users desire to make it possible for everyone to
> know how good Lisp really is. In order to do that, it is necessary to
> suppress all dissent, even of such a mild form as asserting that
> Scheme is Lisp.
which of course include: fight everyone who tries to uncover weak points.
>
> Here is a quotation from a long-time Lisp guru, which I feel gives the
> new CLL reader an excellent feel for the atmosphere of the group:
>
> I can see you're going to do just *fine* here in comp.lang.lisp.
> I'm rather looking forward to the ritual disembowelling, in
> particular, although the bit were we chop your arms and legs off
> and feed them to crocodiles is also good.
i remember this.
savages
finally without teeths.
>
> This quotation is from Tim Bradshaw, and I hope he doesn't feed me to
> the crocodiles for using it.
>
Justin Johnson wrote:
> Is it just me, or does this newsgroup contain an _extraordinary_ amount of
> postings completely off-topic and not related to LISP?
>
> I've also noticed a lot of bickering and hostility.
>
> Has it always been like this?
i'm here for about 7 weeks i think.
when i cam first, i hear from other people that cll is called 'hostile'.
i start to assimilate lisp.
now i know: cll is hostile.
but i don't think, that many of the people in cll have understood lisp.
i don't even think, that they are the *real* lisp experts.
just thoughts.
-
a big list of different posts:
················································@pontos.net&start=130
my first topic in cll.
·····················································@pontos.net
In article <············@usenet.otenet.gr>, ilias wrote:
>i'm here for about 7 weeks i think.
>when i cam first, i hear from other people that cll is called 'hostile'.
>i start to assimilate lisp.
>now i know: cll is hostile.
Hostility is all a state of mind.
Seeing hostility is also, often, merely a state of mind.
>but i don't think, that many of the people in cll have understood lisp.
>i don't even think, that they are the *real* lisp experts.
That, for instance, could be taken for hostility.
>just thoughts.
And that could be taken as the cop-out that turns an insult into
a backhanded insult.
(Bruce H. Nagel)
bruce wrote:
> In article <············@usenet.otenet.gr>, ilias wrote:
>
>>i'm here for about 7 weeks i think.
>
>
>>when i cam first, i hear from other people that cll is called 'hostile'.
>
>
>>i start to assimilate lisp.
>
>
>>now i know: cll is hostile.
>
>
> Hostility is all a state of mind.
> Seeing hostility is also, often, merely a state of mind.
often.
but not always.
c.l.l. is hostile.
this is a fact form me.
>
>
>>but i don't think, that many of the people in cll have understood lisp.
>
>
>>i don't even think, that they are the *real* lisp experts.
>
>
> That, for instance, could be taken for hostility.
could.
a real expert would not take it as hostile.
the unreal experts would take it as hostile.
-
my above writing is very friendly.
against the real lisp experts.
whoever those are.
>
>
>>just thoughts.
>
>
> And that could be taken as the cop-out that turns an insult into
> a backhanded insult.
could.
in general i don't insult people.
i tell them a thruth.
"just thoughts"
=> not a fact form me.
yet.
>
> (Bruce H. Nagel)
Hi.
"ilias" <·······@pontos.net> skrev i en meddelelse
·················@usenet.otenet.gr...
>> when i cam first, i hear from other people that cll is called 'hostile'.
>
> i start to assimilate lisp.
>
> now i know: cll is hostile.
>
> but i don't think, that many of the people in cll have understood lisp.
>
> i don't even think, that they are the *real* lisp experts.
>
> just thoughts.
I don't find the group hostile ,as just the fact that the majority of posts are
about this C ++ fasion type of rigid programing with impossible compilers noone
will get running, there are a great will to make simpler standards and more
friendly variants of the language, that it allway's end up with somthing even
more complicatet, don't mean that you get a nasty reply if you come with an
AutoLisp ansver ;))
True, I seen a few posts where I thought "this is not lisp".
P.C.
From: Christopher C. Stacy
Subject: Re: This newsgroup...
Date:
Message-ID: <u4rccvf59.fsf@dtpq.com>
>>>>> On Thu, 26 Sep 2002 10:38:28 +0100, Justin Johnson ("Justin") writes:
Justin> Is it just me, or does this newsgroup contain an _extraordinary_ amount of
Justin> postings completely off-topic and not related to LISP?
Justin> I've also noticed a lot of bickering and hostility.
Justin> Has it always been like this?
There are a number of knowledgable and helpful people
in the newsgroup, and I have found it to be very useful.
Part of the problem is that there are about three or four regular
posters (who also contribute real material) who are always fighting
with each other about their opinion of each other's mental health.
Or something. But those threads are easily identified and skipped.
At most, a quick one-message sample every once in a while is all
that one needs to determine the nature of one of those threads.
Sometimes most of the noise is from the steady influx of trolls,
usually one or two at a time. This could even be the same person
under different guises. Unfortunately some people just can't help
themselves from responding to the trolls!
Many of the responses come from people who are (or were initially)
trying to be helpful, thinking the troll was just terribly confused.
Later, they fear that he will confuse newcomers with his nonsense
rantings). Then some of those people eventually get angry, which
of course gives him the reward and motivation to continue.
For example, in the current situation, if everybody just entirely and
immediately stopped responding to the most recent random troll ("Ilias"),
then things would be alot better. He might give up, or he might continue
to post a lot, but it would be obvious (to outsiders) from the structure
of the threads that nobody is paying any attention to him. This would be
more effective than trying to correct his bizarre postings.
"Justin Johnson" <·······@mobiusent.com> writes:
> Is it just me, or does this newsgroup contain an _extraordinary_ amount of
> postings completely off-topic and not related to LISP?
>
> I've also noticed a lot of bickering and hostility.
>
> Has it always been like this?
Looks like Clint just pulled in to clean up the town. <sigh>
On Thu, 26 Sep 2002 10:38:28 +0100, "Justin Johnson"
<·······@mobiusent.com> wrote:
>
>Is it just me, or does this newsgroup contain an _extraordinary_ amount of
>postings completely off-topic and not related to LISP?
>
>I've also noticed a lot of bickering and hostility.
>
>Has it always been like this?
This is surely a hostile place - but only at first glance.
The people here are actually good natured, the hostility is part of
the eccentricities which smart & temperamental people often like to
cultivate.
Here a li'll story : I and a few of my friends were standing
and chatting nonchalantly. Then comes along a very famous Mathematics
professor - tall, thin as a rake, carrying a bread in his hand. He
has never spoken with any of us before. Suddenly when he draws
parallel with us, he takes a right angle turn and comes up to us.
Then casually mentions that the weather is good, hands over the bread
to me, strides my bicycle (happened when I was in school) then asks me
if he can take a ride. I am too dumbfounded and just shake me head.
He then sails away for a ride to arrive after 20 minutes.
c.l.l was very irritating early on, but now I enjoy the verbal
warfare. The quasihostility adds spice, I suppose. It is great fun
because I feel only a very few are actually seriously pissed.
You will come to love it eventually...
--
Think.
quasi wrote:
> On Thu, 26 Sep 2002 10:38:28 +0100, "Justin Johnson"
> <·······@mobiusent.com> wrote:
>
>
>>Is it just me, or does this newsgroup contain an _extraordinary_ amount of
>>postings completely off-topic and not related to LISP?
>>
>>I've also noticed a lot of bickering and hostility.
>>
>>Has it always been like this?
>
>
> This is surely a hostile place - but only at first glance.
> The people here are actually good natured, the hostility is part of
> the eccentricities which smart & temperamental people often like to
> cultivate.
> Here a li'll story : I and a few of my friends were standing
> and chatting nonchalantly. Then comes along a very famous Mathematics
> professor - tall, thin as a rake, carrying a bread in his hand. He
> has never spoken with any of us before. Suddenly when he draws
> parallel with us, he takes a right angle turn and comes up to us.
> Then casually mentions that the weather is good, hands over the bread
> to me, strides my bicycle (happened when I was in school) then asks me
> if he can take a ride. I am too dumbfounded and just shake me head.
> He then sails away for a ride to arrive after 20 minutes.
>
> c.l.l was very irritating early on, but now I enjoy the verbal
> warfare. The quasihostility adds spice, I suppose. It is great fun
> because I feel only a very few are actually seriously pissed.
>
> You will come to love it eventually...
> --
>
> Think.
you have described this very nice.
but the main topic of this newsgroup is lisp.
and not fun.
fun is ok, as long it doesn't disrupt the 'integrity' of the threads.
the threads are archived at google.
they can be a usefull resource.
but people must be able to read through the threads.
fun-topics and lisp-topics must be seperated clearly.
please don't let people think, that all this here is a healthy condition.
it is not.
On Thu, 26 Sep 2002 22:13:31 +0300, ilias <·······@pontos.net> wrote:
>
>you have described this very nice.
thanks
>but the main topic of this newsgroup is lisp.
indeed yes.
>and not fun.
yes. But it may be so that a few here post regularly. This is a
place where they 'hang out'. Coming here (vitually speaking) and
answring repetitive questions may get tiring. Genuinely interesting
topics may be sparce. So any small pass time seems to attract
attention... also makes this a better hang out place IMHO.
>fun-topics and lisp-topics must be seperated clearly.
which is very true. But the past few entirely off topic threads have
been so marked.
>please don't let people think, that all this here is a healthy condition.
unless people enjoy what they are doing, the motivation to keep doing
it all the time may reduce.
anyway, my post was in the lighter vien. Just one of ~2 billion
opinions.
--
Think.
quasi wrote:
> On Thu, 26 Sep 2002 22:13:31 +0300, ilias <·······@pontos.net> wrote:
>
>>you have described this very nice.
>
>
> thanks
>
>
>>but the main topic of this newsgroup is lisp.
>
>
> indeed yes.
>
>
>>and not fun.
>
>
> yes. But it may be so that a few here post regularly. This is a
> place where they 'hang out'. Coming here (vitually speaking) and
> answring repetitive questions may get tiring. Genuinely interesting
> topics may be sparce. So any small pass time seems to attract
> attention... also makes this a better hang out place IMHO.
thats ok.
i agree with that.
>
>
>>fun-topics and lisp-topics must be seperated clearly.
>
>
> which is very true. But the past few entirely off topic threads have
> been so marked.
ok.
but a new topic would be more friendly.
some people use graphical readers (which display the tree).
>
>
>>please don't let people think, that all this here is a healthy condition.
>
>
> unless people enjoy what they are doing, the motivation to keep doing
> it all the time may reduce.
>
> anyway, my post was in the lighter vien. Just one of ~2 billion
> opinions.
i'm sure, you've understand my words.
"quasi" wrote:
> Here a li'll story : I and a few of my friends were standing
> and chatting nonchalantly. Then comes along a very famous Mathematics
> professor - tall, thin as a rake, carrying a bread in his hand. He
> has never spoken with any of us before. Suddenly when he draws
> parallel with us, he takes a right angle turn and comes up to us.
> Then casually mentions that the weather is good, hands over the bread
> to me, strides my bicycle (happened when I was in school) then asks me
> if he can take a ride. I am too dumbfounded and just shake me head.
> He then sails away for a ride to arrive after 20 minutes.
Oh, go on, tell us. Who?
--
Gareth McCaughan ················@pobox.com
.sig under construc
On Fri, 27 Sep 2002 23:58:33 +0100, ················@pobox.com (Gareth
McCaughan) wrote:
>"quasi" wrote:
>
>Oh, go on, tell us. Who?
Prof.M.G.Nadkarni
PhD from Brown University (1964?)
INSA Senior Scientist Fellowship
Fellow of Indian National Science Academy
Fellow of Indian Academy of Science, Bangalore
Maharashtra Academy of Sciences.
Books published / edited
1. General Spectral Theory, M.G.Nadkarni, University of Mumbai, Mumbai
2. Spectral Theory of Dynamics, M.G.Nadkarni, Hindustan Book Agency.
3. Basic Ergodic Theory, M.G.NAdkarni, Hindustan Book Agency.
err.. I may have over done the *very famous* bit. He may not be an
internationally popular figure, but he was very well respected here.
At that time he was also all high & mighty for us. He was extremely
popular also due to his eccentricities. He used to sit on the first
bench (with his long legs poking out) during guest lectures and used
to doze off. Then in the middle of the talk he used to suddenly wake
up and take an acute interest in the ongoing talk. Then doze off
again & wake up & doze off ad infinitum.
Hope he does not read c.l.l & doubly hope you don't turn out to be one
of his friends :-)
quasi
--
Think.
"quasi" wrote:
[I asked:]
> > Oh, go on, tell us. Who?
["quasi":]
> Prof.M.G.Nadkarni
> PhD from Brown University (1964?)
> INSA Senior Scientist Fellowship
> Fellow of Indian National Science Academy
> Fellow of Indian Academy of Science, Bangalore
> Maharashtra Academy of Sciences.
...
> err.. I may have over done the *very famous* bit. He may not be an
> internationally popular figure, but he was very well respected here.
'Fraid I haven't heard of him, but I was never into ergodic
theory.
> At that time he was also all high & mighty for us. He was extremely
> popular also due to his eccentricities. He used to sit on the first
> bench (with his long legs poking out) during guest lectures and used
> to doze off. Then in the middle of the talk he used to suddenly wake
> up and take an acute interest in the ongoing talk. Then doze off
> again & wake up & doze off ad infinitum.
I was at a course of lectures on category theory once;
someone fell asleep and was gently awoken by the lecturer.
He (she? I forget) was terribly embarrassed, but the
lecturer then explained about the time he'd fallen
asleep in the very same room during a lecture by, errrm,
someone very famous in the field -- I forget who, but
it was a Very Big Name like MacLane or Yoneda or Lawvere.
--
Gareth McCaughan ················@pobox.com
.sig under construc
* Justin Johnson
| Is it just me, or does this newsgroup contain an _extraordinary_ amount of
| postings completely off-topic and not related to LISP?
Well, it is obviously you, too.
--
Erik Naggum, Oslo, Norway
Act from reason, and failure makes you rethink and study harder.
Act from faith, and failure makes you blame someone and push harder.
Justin Johnson wrote:
> Is it just me, or does this newsgroup contain an _extraordinary_ amount
> of postings completely off-topic and not related to LISP?
Not that I've noticed, except for yours. In the future, please try to
refrain from posting non-Lisp items like yours.
> I've also noticed a lot of bickering and hostility.
Odd. Must have been something you ate.
> Has it always been like this?
Like what?
faa
> Not that I've noticed, except for yours. In the future, please try to
> refrain from posting non-Lisp items like yours.
Aww, come on! At least I had the word 'LISP' in there.
> Odd. Must have been something you ate.
Wouldn't be the first time...
> Like what?
This.
--
Justin Johnson
"Frank A. Adrian" <·······@ancar.org> wrote in message
·······················@news.uswest.net...
>
> Justin Johnson wrote:
> > Is it just me, or does this newsgroup contain an _extraordinary_ amount
> > of postings completely off-topic and not related to LISP?
> Not that I've noticed, except for yours. In the future, please try to
> refrain from posting non-Lisp items like yours.
>
> > I've also noticed a lot of bickering and hostility.
> Odd. Must have been something you ate.
>
> > Has it always been like this?
> Like what?
>
> faa
"Justin Johnson" <·······@mobiusent.com> writes:
> Is it just me, or does this newsgroup contain an _extraordinary_
> amount of postings completely off-topic and not related to LISP?
Odd. I have always considered c.l.l to be the group I knew where the
noise level was *lowest*. There is a lot of noise, but so I find
there is in *all* News groups. I remember a group where the
un-official FAQ stated that anything was a valid topic in that group,
*except* the topic given in the charter.
> I've also noticed a lot of bickering and hostility.
I agree that some of the noise is rather hostile, more so the average
group. One has to live with that. Ignoring people is a lot easier on
the Net.
> Has it always been like this?
The noise level used to be somewhat lower, but not dramatically so.
The hostility level of the noise has been fairly constant.
Stig Hemmer,
Jack of a Few Trades.