From: Joe Marshall
Subject: Re: Statistics for comp.lang.lisp
Date:
Message-ID: <elbjfhy2.fsf@ccs.neu.edu>
Greg Bacon <······@cs.uah.edu> writes:
> Top 10 Posters by Number of Posts
> =================================
> 18 26.9 ( 16.8/ 10.0/ 4.4) Joe Marshall <···@ccs.neu.edu>
I made it to number 6!
> Bottom 10 Posters by OCR (minimum of five posts)
> =================================================
> 0.440 ( 4.4 / 10.0) 18 Joe Marshall <···@ccs.neu.edu>
But I guess I'm not very original.
In article <············@ccs.neu.edu>, Joe Marshall <···@ccs.neu.edu> wrote:
>But I guess I'm not very original.
That post had 2 original lines versus 6 quoted lines, so it reduced your
OCR.
But at least you didn't quote the entire thing just to add those two lines,
as some obscene quoters are wont to do.
--
Barry Margolin, ······@genuity.net
Genuity, Woburn, MA
*** DON'T SEND TECHNICAL QUESTIONS DIRECTLY TO ME, post them to newsgroups.
Please DON'T copy followups to me -- I'll assume it wasn't posted to the group.
Joe Marshall <···@ccs.neu.edu> writes:
> Greg Bacon <······@cs.uah.edu> writes:
>
> > Top 10 Posters by Number of Posts
> > =================================
> > 18 26.9 ( 16.8/ 10.0/ 4.4) Joe Marshall <···@ccs.neu.edu>
>
> I made it to number 6!
>
> > Bottom 10 Posters by OCR (minimum of five posts)
> > =================================================
> > 0.440 ( 4.4 / 10.0) 18 Joe Marshall <···@ccs.neu.edu>
>
> But I guess I'm not very original.
Originality is a good thing by itself, but it conflicts with
the need to provide context and the two must be balanced. I
detest reading an article which has done absolutely no quoting,
and the only way to get the context is to go back in the thread.
However, sometimes this is impossible to do simply, since the
newsreader has missed the previous article for some reason.
So google is the next step, but by that time, do I even care
what had been written? Fortunately, we have no regular posters
who make a habit of not quoting the context at all.
Perhaps "top 10" and "bottom 10" rates on OCR are not the right
dichotomy; perhaps the "good" posters are the ones in the middle,
close to .5 (balancing originality and context). So maybe one of
the interesting statistics is who comes closest to 50%. I don't
know if .5 is really the right number - perhaps the actual center
should be based on the center of a bell-curve which thus would
indicate the "style" of this partiular newsgroup, which would be
somewhat above .5
Based on .5 being good, you're really not that far off from being in
the balanced area...
--
Duane Rettig ·····@franz.com Franz Inc. http://www.franz.com/
555 12th St., Suite 1450 http://www.555citycenter.com/
Oakland, Ca. 94607 Phone: (510) 452-2000; Fax: (510) 452-0182
Duane Rettig wrote:
> Joe Marshall <···@ccs.neu.edu> writes:
>
>
>>Greg Bacon <······@cs.uah.edu> writes:
>>
>>
>>>Top 10 Posters by Number of Posts
>>>=================================
>>> 18 26.9 ( 16.8/ 10.0/ 4.4) Joe Marshall <···@ccs.neu.edu>
>>
>>I made it to number 6!
>>
>>
>>>Bottom 10 Posters by OCR (minimum of five posts)
>>>=================================================
>>>0.440 ( 4.4 / 10.0) 18 Joe Marshall <···@ccs.neu.edu>
>>
>>But I guess I'm not very original.
>
>
> Originality is a good thing by itself, but it conflicts with
> the need to provide context and the two must be balanced. I
> detest reading an article which has done absolutely no quoting,
> and the only way to get the context is to go back in the thread.
> However, sometimes this is impossible to do simply, since the
> newsreader has missed the previous article for some reason.
> So google is the next step, but by that time, do I even care
> what had been written? Fortunately, we have no regular posters
> who make a habit of not quoting the context at all.
>
> Perhaps "top 10" and "bottom 10" rates on OCR are not the right
> dichotomy; perhaps the "good" posters are the ones in the middle,
> close to .5 (balancing originality and context). So maybe one of
> the interesting statistics is who comes closest to 50%. I don't
> know if .5 is really the right number - perhaps the actual center
> should be based on the center of a bell-curve which thus would
> indicate the "style" of this partiular newsgroup, which would be
> somewhat above .5
>
> Based on .5 being good, you're really not that far off from being in
> the balanced area...
>
i agree with you in essence.
OCR 1.0 is 'the secure way to quote correctly'.
as i've quoted *all*, i don't risk to quote 'unfriendly', thus giving
another meaning to the words of the previous poster.
it's can be a sign of laziness, too.
OCR 0.0 is 'the secure way to quote correctly' (but for the reader
uncomfortable, as he has to look back and to create the interconnections
'manually')
Everything between this is subjective. A real rating cannot be generated
by a machine.
?
AI.
LISP.
whow!
the discussion is in-topic (or in-forum)!
Dorai Sitaram wrote:
> I guess the statistics can't be used to hound Ilias
> after all.
We do not need statistics to hound ilias; his words suffice.
> Marco Antoniotti is the one with the
> worst numbers.
Anyone have a good line about the value of statistics?
:)
kenny
clinisys
"Kenny Tilton" <·······@nyc.rr.com> wrote in message
·····················@nyc.rr.com...
>
> Anyone have a good line about the value of statistics?
>
Statistical analysis has shown that any characterisation of a reality that
is based on statistical analysis is false with a probability of one. (sort
of a "this statement is false" kind of thingy...I tried :)
--
Coby Beck
(remove #\Space "coby 101 @ bigpond . com")
"Coby Beck" <·····@mercury.bc.ca> writes:
> "Kenny Tilton" <·······@nyc.rr.com> wrote in message
> ·····················@nyc.rr.com...
> >
> > Anyone have a good line about the value of statistics?
> >
>
> Statistical analysis has shown that any characterisation of a reality that
> is based on statistical analysis is false with a probability of one. (sort
> of a "this statement is false" kind of thingy...I tried :)
Did you know that 73.5% of all statistics are made up?
--
Duane Rettig ·····@franz.com Franz Inc. http://www.franz.com/
555 12th St., Suite 1450 http://www.555citycenter.com/
Oakland, Ca. 94607 Phone: (510) 452-2000; Fax: (510) 452-0182
From: Joe Marshall
Subject: Re: Statistics for comp.lang.lisp
Date:
Message-ID: <lm5qi3da.fsf@ccs.neu.edu>
Kenny Tilton <·······@nyc.rr.com> writes:
> Anyone have a good line about the value of statistics?
``There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics.''
This is attributed to Benjamin Disraeli (1804-1881) as quoted by Mark
Twain in his (Twain's) biography. Some think that Henry Labouch�re
(1831-1912) may have said it first.
``He uses statistics as a drunken man uses lamp-posts --- for
support rather than illumination.'' -- Andrew Lang (1844-1912)
You moved me to get out my Bartlett's:
"unless statistics lie he was
more brave than me:more blond than you."
e e cummings, "i sing of Olaf glad and big"
Joe Marshall wrote:
> Kenny Tilton <·······@nyc.rr.com> writes:
>
>
>>Anyone have a good line about the value of statistics?
>
>
> ``There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics.''
>
> This is attributed to Benjamin Disraeli (1804-1881) as quoted by Mark
> Twain in his (Twain's) biography. Some think that Henry Labouch�re
> (1831-1912) may have said it first.
>
>
> ``He uses statistics as a drunken man uses lamp-posts --- for
> support rather than illumination.'' -- Andrew Lang (1844-1912)
>
>
On 25 Sep 2002 09:51:45 -0400, Joe Marshall <···@ccs.neu.edu> wrote:
> ``There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics.''
>
>This is attributed to Benjamin Disraeli (1804-1881) as quoted by Mark
>Twain in his (Twain's) biography. Some think that Henry Labouch�re
>(1831-1912) may have said it first.
quoted, you say? (grin)
peace,
quasi
--
Think.
From: Joe Marshall
Subject: Re: Statistics for comp.lang.lisp
Date:
Message-ID: <d6r1onmr.fsf@ccs.neu.edu>
quasi <·········@yahoo.com> writes:
> On 25 Sep 2002 09:51:45 -0400, Joe Marshall <···@ccs.neu.edu> wrote:
> > ``There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics.''
> >
> >This is attributed to Benjamin Disraeli (1804-1881) as quoted by Mark
> >Twain in his (Twain's) biography. Some think that Henry Labouch�re
> >(1831-1912) may have said it first.
>
> quoted, you say? (grin)
Yes. And I neglected to ask permission of Disraeli, Twain,
Labouch�re, or their assigns or estates.
In article <············@ccs.neu.edu>, Joe Marshall <···@ccs.neu.edu> wrote:
>quasi <·········@yahoo.com> writes:
>> >
>> >This is attributed to Benjamin Disraeli (1804-1881) as quoted by Mark
>> >Twain in his (Twain's) biography. Some think that Henry Labouch�re
>> >(1831-1912) may have said it first.
>>
>> quoted, you say? (grin)
>
>Yes. And I neglected to ask permission of Disraeli, Twain,
>Labouch�re, or their assigns or estates.
Don't worry. They (or their assigns or estates) will send you
email if they have a problem with your quoting.
In article <················@nyc.rr.com>, Kenny Tilton
<·······@nyc.rr.com> wrote:
>Anyone have a good line about the value of statistics?
"With N free parameters, I can fit an elephant."
The version I saw initially had N=7, but I have seen
other variants.
* Kenny Tilton
| Anyone have a good line about the value of statistics?
83.7% of all statistics is made up on the spot.
--
Erik Naggum, Oslo, Norway
Act from reason, and failure makes you rethink and study harder.
Act from faith, and failure makes you blame someone and push harder.
From one of Erik Naggums signatures:
don't call people who don't understand statistics idiots. take their money.
Not really about statistics, but it turned up in my search (and may
serve as a comment to other threads):
From: ········@midwinter.com
Subject: A morality tale of Perl versus Python
Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 19:30:01 PST
This has been percolating in the back of my mind for a while. It's
a scene from _The Empire Strikes Back_, reinterpreted to serve a
valuable moral lesson for aspiring programmers.
___________________________________________________________________________
EXTERIOR: DAGOBAH -- DAY
With Yoda strapped to his back, Luke climbs up one of the
many thick vines that grow in the swamp until he reaches the
Dagobah statistics lab. Panting heavily, he continues his
exercises -- grepping, installing new packages, logging in as
root, and writing replacements for two-year-old shell scripts
in Python.
YODA: Code! Yes. A programmer's strength flows from code maintainability.
But beware of Perl. Terse syntax... more than one way to do it...
default variables. The dark side of code maintainability are they.
Easily they flow, quick to join you when code you write. If once
you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny,
consume you it will.
LUKE: Is Perl better than Python?
YODA: No... no... no. Quicker, easier, more seductive.
LUKE: But how will I know why Python is better than Perl?
YODA: You will know. When your code you try to read six months from
now.
___________________________________________________________________________
--
Selected by Jim Griffith. MAIL your joke to ·····@netfunny.com.
Attribute the joke's source if at all possible. A Daemon will auto-reply.
If you don't need an auto-reply, submit to ···@netfunny.com instead.
For the full submission guidelines, see http://www.netfunny.com/rhf/
This joke's link: http://www.netfunny.com/rhf/jokes/99/Nov/perl.html
------------------------+-----------------------------------------------------
Christian Lynbech | Ericsson Telebit, Skanderborgvej 232, DK-8260 Viby J
Phone: +45 8938 5244 | email: ·················@ted.ericsson.se
Fax: +45 8938 5101 | web: www.ericsson.com
------------------------+-----------------------------------------------------
Hit the philistines three times over the head with the Elisp reference manual.
- ·······@hal.com (Michael A. Petonic)
In an attempt to throw the authorities off his trail, ····@goldshoe.gte.com (Dorai Sitaram) transmitted:
> I guess the statistics can't be used to hound Ilias
> after all. Marco Antoniotti is the one with the
> worst numbers.
It's kind of between him and Erik...
--
(reverse (concatenate 'string ·············@" "enworbbc"))
http://cbbrowne.com/info/unix.html
Rules of the Evil Overlord #153. "My Legions of Terror will be an
equal-opportunity employer. Conversely, when it is prophesied that no
man can defeat me, I will keep in mind the increasing number of
non-traditional gender roles." <http://www.eviloverlord.com/>
····@goldshoe.gte.com (Dorai Sitaram) writes:
> I guess the statistics can't be used to hound Ilias
> after all. Marco Antoniotti is the one with the
> worst numbers.
I admit my faults and I will make penance. :)
I will try to be more on topic and to the point in the future.
My major fault is that I get too much of a zealot most of the time.
Cheers
--
Marco Antoniotti ========================================================
NYU Courant Bioinformatics Group tel. +1 - 212 - 998 3488
715 Broadway 10th Floor fax +1 - 212 - 995 4122
New York, NY 10003, USA http://bioinformatics.cat.nyu.edu
"Hello New York! We'll do what we can!"
Bill Murray in `Ghostbusters'.
In article <···············@octagon.valis.nyu.edu>,
Marco Antoniotti <·······@cs.nyu.edu> wrote:
>
>····@goldshoe.gte.com (Dorai Sitaram) writes:
>
>> I guess the statistics can't be used to hound Ilias
>> after all. Marco Antoniotti is the one with the
>> worst numbers.
>
>I admit my faults and I will make penance. :)
>
>I will try to be more on topic and to the point in the future.
>
>My major fault is that I get too much of a zealot most of the time.
Quit being a mealy-mouthed martyr. I was saying
that "statistics" shouldn't be used to hound people,
which was what Tim Bradshaw was doing in his "toxicity
of trolls" thread.
I don't care how, and how often, you post to cll, and I
think it would be equally irrational to use statistics
against you. It is true that I find ilias's
courageously exploratory posts much more charming than
your pseudo-Socratic know-it-all prattle, but that's
just purely personal. :-)
····@goldshoe.gte.com (Dorai Sitaram) writes:
> In article <···············@octagon.valis.nyu.edu>,
> Marco Antoniotti <·······@cs.nyu.edu> wrote:
> >
...
> >My major fault is that I get too much of a zealot most of the time.
>
> Quit being a mealy-mouthed martyr. I was saying
> that "statistics" shouldn't be used to hound people,
> which was what Tim Bradshaw was doing in his "toxicity
> of trolls" thread.
Well, I was doing some introspection as soon as I saw the
statistics.
> I don't care how, and how often, you post to cll, and I
> think it would be equally irrational to use statistics
> against you. It is true that I find ilias's
> courageously exploratory posts much more charming than
> your pseudo-Socratic know-it-all prattle, but that's
> just purely personal. :-)
Touche!
Cheers
--
Marco Antoniotti ========================================================
NYU Courant Bioinformatics Group tel. +1 - 212 - 998 3488
715 Broadway 10th Floor fax +1 - 212 - 995 4122
New York, NY 10003, USA http://bioinformatics.cat.nyu.edu
"Hello New York! We'll do what we can!"
Bill Murray in `Ghostbusters'.
From: Tim Bradshaw
Subject: Re: Statistics for comp.lang.lisp
Date:
Message-ID: <ey34rce141g.fsf@cley.com>
* Dorai Sitaram wrote:
> Quit being a mealy-mouthed martyr. I was saying
> that "statistics" shouldn't be used to hound people,
> which was what Tim Bradshaw was doing in his "toxicity
> of trolls" thread.
However I was using different figures, in particular much simpler ones
(I don't trust original-content stuff too much). If you think that
trolls don't do a lot of damage I'd like to see an argument for that,
either statistical or not. I guess you could argue that our current
troll is, in fact, not a troll and that all these threads are useful,
but that probably should not be used as an argument as it's so clearly
a matter of opinion - the only way to decide the point would be to
vote.
--tim
Joe Marshall <···@ccs.neu.edu> wrote:
> Greg Bacon <······@cs.uah.edu> writes:
>
>> Top 10 Posters by Number of Posts
>> =================================
>> 18 26.9 ( 16.8/ 10.0/ 4.4) Joe Marshall <···@ccs.neu.edu>
>
> I made it to number 6!
"We want information... information... information..."
"I am not a number, I am a free variable!!!"
>> Bottom 10 Posters by OCR (minimum of five posts)
>> =================================================
>> 0.440 ( 4.4 / 10.0) 18 Joe Marshall <···@ccs.neu.edu>
>
> But I guess I'm not very original.
We'll always consider you original.
--
(concatenate 'string "cbbrowne" ·@ntlug.org")
http://cbbrowne.com/info/advocacy.html
Why are men like blenders?
You need one, but you're not quite sure why.
In the last exciting episode, Stefan Schmiedl <·@xss.de> wrote::
> Very impressive and interesting, Greg.
Actually, Chris. (Long story...)
> How did you collect the information?
There's a Perl class called News::Scan. It knows how to parse a news
spool and collect the whole bunch of statistics.
Some scripts have been constructed to, well, generate the interesting
summary.
No, it's not written in Lisp. It has the merit that it didn't take a
lot of effort to write and deploy it.
--
(reverse (concatenate 'string ····················@" "454aa"))
http://cbbrowne.com/info/x.html
The IETF motto: "Rough consensus *and* working code."
Christopher Browne <········@acm.org> writes:
> In the last exciting episode, Stefan Schmiedl <·@xss.de> wrote::
> > How did you collect the information?
>
> There's a Perl class called News::Scan. It knows how to parse a news
> spool and collect the whole bunch of statistics.
>
> Some scripts have been constructed to, well, generate the interesting
> summary.
>
> No, it's not written in Lisp. It has the merit that it didn't take a
> lot of effort to write and deploy it.
I thought all Lisp had those same merits??? So the question again:
why perl??
=-)
Peace,
Petr
Quoth Petr Swedock <····@blade-runner.mit.edu>:
> Christopher Browne <········@acm.org> writes:
>
>> In the last exciting episode, Stefan Schmiedl <·@xss.de> wrote::
>
>> > How did you collect the information?
>>
>> There's a Perl class called News::Scan. It knows how to parse a news
>> spool and collect the whole bunch of statistics.
>>
>> Some scripts have been constructed to, well, generate the interesting
>> summary.
>>
>> No, it's not written in Lisp. It has the merit that it didn't take a
>> lot of effort to write and deploy it.
>
> I thought all Lisp had those same merits??? So the question again:
> why perl??
>
> =-)
It may have required a barrel-load of /someone else's/ time and
effort.
It required minimial amounts of /my/ time.
--
(concatenate 'string "cbbrowne" ·@cbbrowne.com")
http://cbbrowne.com/info/
"Being really good at C++ is like being really good at using rocks to
sharpen sticks." -- Thant Tessman
In article <··············@ID-125932.news.dfncis.de>,
Greg Bacon <······@cs.uah.edu> wrote:
>Following is a summary of articles spanning a 7 day period,
Unfortunately, these statistics don't really show the important stuff,
which is who's responsible for the recent steep decline in the signal:noise
ratio here. We need a script that can tell the trolling and flaming from
the technical posts.
I've given up on reading any thread after its third or fourth day of
existence, because they've all degraded into flames by then.
--
Barry Margolin, ······@genuity.net
Genuity, Woburn, MA
*** DON'T SEND TECHNICAL QUESTIONS DIRECTLY TO ME, post them to newsgroups.
Please DON'T copy followups to me -- I'll assume it wasn't posted to the group.
Greg Bacon <······@cs.uah.edu> writes:
[ ... ]
This was a very interesting set of numbers; they mostly ring true.
Thanks for doing this.
In order to account for statistical abberations, I would suggest
looking at this result:
> Top 10 Threads by Number of Posts
> =================================
>
> Posts Subject
> ----- -------
>
> 118 Re: becoming a better programmer
> 104 Use Java! Was: becoming a better programmer
> 52 Re: LISP - 2 exponent 0 = 1
> 48 Re: Is there a useful distinction between "programming" and "scripting" languages?
> 37 is it ok if I quote?
> 34 ZetaLisp top level environment
> 31 LISP - [SPECS ERR] - Backquote - please confirm.
> 28 Re: read-sequence
> 19 intentional programming
> 18 sqrt and speed and fp Was Re: Numbers in Lisp
And finding out what would happen to the results in these
categories:
> Top 10 Targets for Crossposts
> =============================
> Top 10 Crossposters
> ===================
if you were to remove the top two threads (which are, in reality,
only one thread, since even if the subject changed, the cross-posting
from the first continued on to the second). I suspect that you
would find that we normally do much less cross-posting than the
current numbers suggest, and that this statistic is an abnormal blip
instead of being the norm.
--
Duane Rettig ·····@franz.com Franz Inc. http://www.franz.com/
555 12th St., Suite 1450 http://www.555citycenter.com/
Oakland, Ca. 94607 Phone: (510) 452-2000; Fax: (510) 452-0182
* Greg Bacon
| - A line in the body of a post is considered to be original if it
| does *not* match the regular expression /^\s{0,3}(?:>|:|\S+>|\+\+)/.
I cannot make sense of that regexp, but it fails to capture my quoting
convention while allowing for a number of others. It should be tuned for
this newsgroup. Since I appear to produce more original content than I do,
the numbers are more than slightly off mark for the "OCR" bit.
| - The scanner prefers the Reply-To: header over the From: header
| in determining the "real" e-mail address and name.
Why? This seems completely bogus to me and might indicate that it has been
tuned for a different newsgroup.
| Excluded Posters
| ================
|
| ····················@mox\.perl\.com
And if this is not a dead giveaway of the dangers of Perl reuse, nothing is.
--
Erik Naggum, Oslo, Norway
Act from reason, and failure makes you rethink and study harder.
Act from faith, and failure makes you blame someone and push harder.
In article <················@naggum.no>, Erik Naggum <····@naggum.no> wrote:
>| - The scanner prefers the Reply-To: header over the From: header
>| in determining the "real" e-mail address and name.
>
> Why? This seems completely bogus to me and might indicate that it has been
> tuned for a different newsgroup.
Unless we have lots of posters using Reply-to, it probably doesn't make a
difference.
--
Barry Margolin, ······@genuity.net
Genuity, Woburn, MA
*** DON'T SEND TECHNICAL QUESTIONS DIRECTLY TO ME, post them to newsgroups.
Please DON'T copy followups to me -- I'll assume it wasn't posted to the group.