Around one month ago i visit comp.lang.smalltalk to learn about smalltalk.
·····················································@pontos.net
Then it happens: i hear the term LISP. I think simply 'what's that
bullsh.t again' and i go to the c.l.l. to ask for information.
My initial posting was:
················@pontos.net
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Since one month i'm reading and playing around with LISP. Mostly reader,
syntax, macros.
I was in this group in my modest form. Simply to make it easier to
assimilate the information. To allow people to follow the essence of my
thoughts, without beeing influenced by ironic statements, jokes etc.!
Everything i wrote was the truth to my best knowledge. I was not kidding
at any point.
I had no respect. And i have still no respect. Yes, you are maybe
experts. But the only experts i accept, are experts in thinking.
This has nothing to do with analytical strength. More with calm,
context, wisdom, limits. I think you understand.
Part of the 'game': no email contact.
I've not replied to any email, exept to one where i had to validate a
critical information.
I've sent one message to one person, to be sure that the person is ok.
Now i ask everyone to send me an email.
- Do you think that c.l.l. is populated by 'savages' and 'idiots'?
- Do you think that people in c.l.l. defend new interessents?
- Do you think that The Spirit of Lisp is ignored by the vendors?
- Do you want that LISP became the status which it deserves?
- Do you want an industrial-strength Lisp-Implementation for free?
or
- Do you want to tell me with *very* bad words your opinion?
- Do you want to tell me with *very* good words your opinion?
- Do you want to offer me a job/task?
or
- something i've forgotten?
Private email is *private*. So i will of course *not* publish any
contents of your messages to the newsgroup or anywhere else. (I think it
is anyway forbidden by law).
The last step of the process is not finished. I lost to much time with
'fights'. So some topics are not closed yet. But i think you got enouth
information.
ilias <·······@pontos.net> writes:
> Now i ask everyone to send me an email.
>
> - Do you think that c.l.l. is populated by 'savages' and 'idiots'?
> - Do you think that people in c.l.l. defend new interessents?
> - Do you think that The Spirit of Lisp is ignored by the vendors?
> - Do you want that LISP became the status which it deserves?
> - Do you want an industrial-strength Lisp-Implementation for free?
>
> or
>
> - Do you want to tell me with *very* bad words your opinion?
> - Do you want to tell me with *very* good words your opinion?
> - Do you want to offer me a job/task?
>
> or
>
> - something i've forgotten?
>
>
> Private email is *private*. So i will of course *not* publish any
> contents of your messages to the newsgroup or anywhere else. (I think it
> is anyway forbidden by law).
>
> The last step of the process is not finished. I lost to much time with
> 'fights'. So some topics are not closed yet. But i think you got enouth
> information.
I wish you would try writing a substantial program. Do something you
are interested in with Lisp, then share it with the group.
The stuff that you are writing to the newsgroup is useless. It is
like the definition of an expert as someone who knows more and more
about less and less, eventually coming to know everything about
nothing. Is your goal to become an expert on the smallest token
possible, the "."?
You will only be taken seriously if you do something that convinces
people you are worthy of being taken seriously. The Internet is a
meritocracy.
I think your postings are at least polite, and for that reason I am
willing to read them (when I have time), as opposed to putting you in
a kill file. That doesn't mean I will always take them seriously,
though, as you might have noticed.
I should say that your postings are HARD to read for purely visual
reasons.
--
Fred Gilham ······@csl.sri.com
I can see you're going to do just *fine* here in comp.lang.lisp. I'm
rather looking forward to the ritual disembowelling, in particular,
although the bit were we chop your arms and legs off and feed them to
crocodiles is also good. --- Tim Bradshaw
Fred Gilham wrote:
> ilias <·······@pontos.net> writes:
>
>>Now i ask everyone to send me an email.
...
>>information.
>
> I wish you would try writing a substantial program. Do something you
Substantial.
Must be build on substantial fundament.
> are interested in with Lisp, then share it with the group.
Don't know yet, if Common Lisp is a substantial fundament.
> The stuff that you are writing to the newsgroup is useless. It is
> like the definition of an expert as someone who knows more and more
> about less and less, eventually coming to know everything about
> nothing. Is your goal to become an expert on the smallest token
> possible, the "."?
Know Everything about Nothing.
The falling rain does that.
> You will only be taken seriously if you do something that convinces
> people you are worthy of being taken seriously. The Internet is a
> meritocracy.
i understand.
definition of serously: something the folks want to hear.
> I think your postings are at least polite, and for that reason I am
> willing to read them (when I have time), as opposed to putting you in
> a kill file. That doesn't mean I will always take them seriously,
> though, as you might have noticed.
this is all ok.
> I should say that your postings are HARD to read for purely visual
> reasons.
for this i apoligize.
my english lacks.
> > I wish you would try writing a substantial program. Do something
> > you
>
> Substantial.
>
> Must be build on substantial fundament.
>
> > are interested in with Lisp, then share it with the group.
>
> Don't know yet, if Common Lisp is a substantial fundament.
Well, I think there is a leap of faith necessary here. You won't KNOW
if Lisp is a substantial foundation unless you make the assumption
that it is and then try to do something substantial with it.
It's like when I was first learning to read poetry, I became sensitive
to the sound before I could figure out the meaning. I used to walk
around with poems in my head that I couldn't understand, but that I
thought SOUNDED as though they must mean something worthwhile.
Eventually I'd spend some concentrated time trying to figure them out
and often I'd be pleased by the result. But it took a kind of faith
to be willing to make the effort.
Anyway there are a whole bunch of us that think Lisp is a GREAT
PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE. Today I talked to a co-worker. She was looking
at CLTL-2. I asked her if she was using Lisp. She said, ``I always
like to fool around once in a while programming.'' I said, ``Do you
like Lisp?'' She said, ``I wouldn't consider trying to program in
anything else.''
For that matter, my wife programmed in Lisp for a living for several
years. One of the experiences that led to us getting more involved
was me trying to get her emacs to work on a terminal in her apartment
so she could do her Lisp programming homework (lo these 17 years
ago...). :-)
--
Fred Gilham ······@csl.sri.com
And then [Clinton] turned to Hunter Thompson, of all people, and said
with wholehearted fervor, "We're going to put one hundred thousand new
police officers on the street."
I was up all night persuading Hunter that this was not a personal
threat. -- P. J. O'Rourke
Fred Gilham wrote:
>>>I wish you would try writing a substantial program. Do something
>>>you
>>
>>Substantial.
>>
>>Must be build on substantial fundament.
>>
>>
>>>are interested in with Lisp, then share it with the group.
>>
>>Don't know yet, if Common Lisp is a substantial fundament.
>
> Well, I think there is a leap of faith necessary here. You won't KNOW
...
> ago...). :-)
mostly you describe feelings.
love for C++ was one reason i don't look around.
but i never start to use C++ indeep.
Lisp i wan't to use indeep.
Thus i have to find the entry-point.
CommonLisp?
Or
The Spirit of Lisp?
i'll see.
ilias <·······@pontos.net> writes:
> Around one month ago i visit comp.lang.smalltalk to learn about smalltalk.
>
> ·····················································@pontos.net
>
> Then it happens: i hear the term LISP. I think simply 'what's that
> bullsh.t again' and i go to the c.l.l. to ask for information.
>
> My initial posting was:
>
> ················@pontos.net
> ·····················································@pontos.net
>
> Since one month i'm reading and playing around with LISP. Mostly
> reader, syntax, macros.
>
> I was in this group in my modest form. Simply to make it easier to
> assimilate the information. To allow people to follow the essence of
> my thoughts, without beeing influenced by ironic statements, jokes
> etc.!
>
> Everything i wrote was the truth to my best knowledge. I was not kidding
> at any point.
>
> I had no respect. And i have still no respect. Yes, you are maybe
> experts. But the only experts i accept, are experts in thinking.
You are an expert in the haiku of self-absorption: 'I want this'
and 'I'm irony free' and 'I wrote truth' and 'I offered' ....
BLAH BLAH BLAH.
LISP isn't here to salve your neuroses and C.L.L isn't here to
validate your 'playing around' antics. Get over yourself.
Petr
Petr Swedock wrote:
> ilias <·······@pontos.net> writes:
...
>>I had no respect. And i have still no respect. Yes, you are maybe
>>experts. But the only experts i accept, are experts in thinking.
>
>
> You are an expert in the haiku of self-absorption: 'I want this'
> and 'I'm irony free' and 'I wrote truth' and 'I offered' ....
>
> BLAH BLAH BLAH.
>
> LISP isn't here to salve your neuroses
why?
> and C.L.L isn't here to
> validate your 'playing around' antics.
why?
> Get over yourself.
why?
>
> Petr
I feel agression.
Reflect to detect.
Finishj.
And then suggest.
ilias wrote:
> Petr Swedock wrote:
>
>> ilias <·······@pontos.net> writes:
>
> ...
>
>>> I had no respect. And i have still no respect. Yes, you are maybe
>>> experts. But the only experts i accept, are experts in thinking.
>>
>>
>>
>> You are an expert in the haiku of self-absorption: 'I want this'
>> and 'I'm irony free' and 'I wrote truth' and 'I offered' ....
>>
>> BLAH BLAH BLAH.
>>
>> LISP isn't here to salve your neuroses
>
>
> why?
Because it is not. Lisp is (still) here because it is
a useful programming language.
>
>> and C.L.L isn't here to validate your 'playing around' antics.
>
>
> why?
Because the world does not revolve around you. Mine, at least,
does not. C.L.L is here to discuss Lisp not anything else.
The regulars decide the rules.
>
>> Get over yourself.
>
> why?
>
Because it would be an improvement.
>>
>> Petr
>
>
> I feel agression.
>
> Reflect to detect.
>
> Finishj.
>
> And then suggest.
>
Sorry, but this makes no sense
--
Thomas Stegen
Thomas Stegen wrote:
> ilias wrote:
>
>> Petr Swedock wrote:
>>
>>> ilias <·······@pontos.net> writes:
>>
>> ...
>>
>>>> I had no respect. And i have still no respect. Yes, you are maybe
>>>> experts. But the only experts i accept, are experts in thinking.
>>>
>>> You are an expert in the haiku of self-absorption: 'I want this'
>>> and 'I'm irony free' and 'I wrote truth' and 'I offered' ....
>>>
>>> BLAH BLAH BLAH.
>>>
>>> LISP isn't here to salve your neuroses
>> why?
>
> Because it is not. Lisp is (still) here because it is
> a useful programming language.
>
>>> and C.L.L isn't here to validate your 'playing around' antics.
>> why?
>
> Because the world does not revolve around you. Mine, at least,
> does not. C.L.L is here to discuss Lisp not anything else.
i'm discussing Lisp.
you discuss me.
you revolve the world around me.
> The regulars decide the rules.
decide.
who follows?
>
>>> Get over yourself.
>> why?
>
> Because it would be an improvement.
sounds ok.
>
>>> Petr
>>
>> I feel agression.
>>
>> Reflect to detect.
>>
>> Finishj.
>>
>> And then suggest.
>>
>
> Sorry, but this makes no sense
translate:
I think that i feel aggression in your words.
Reflect all whats happen, to detect the real reasons of your doing.
Finish with this process.
And then came back and give me suggestions (i you still think you have to).
ilias wrote:
> Thomas Stegen wrote:
>
>> ilias wrote:
>>>> and C.L.L isn't here to validate your 'playing around' antics.
>>>
>>> why?
>>
>>
>> Because the world does not revolve around you. Mine, at least,
>> does not. C.L.L is here to discuss Lisp not anything else.
>
>
> i'm discussing Lisp.
>
> you discuss me.
>
> you revolve the world around me.
No, right now I am discussing cll (,or similar communities).
>
>> The regulars decide the rules.
>
>
> decide.
>
> who follows?
>
Anyone polite and decent understands that when seeking
acceptance in a community, then one follows the rules
of that community. To change the rules you first need
to be accepted into the community and gain a thourough
understanding of why the rules are formed the way they
are. Remember, the unwritten rules are just as important
as the written rules. In the case of unchartered
newsgroups unwritten rules are the most important.
>>
>>>> Get over yourself.
>>>
>>> why?
>>
>>
>> Because it would be an improvement.
>
>
> sounds ok.
>
A very good reply.
>>
>>>> Petr
>>>
>>>
>>> I feel agression.
>>>
>>> Reflect to detect.
>>>
>>> Finishj.
>>>
>>> And then suggest.
>>>
>>
>> Sorry, but this makes no sense
>
>
> translate:
> I think that i feel aggression in your words.
>
> Reflect all whats happen, to detect the real reasons of your doing.
>
> Finish with this process.
>
> And then came back and give me suggestions (i you still think you have to).
>
This makes more sense, and you should have written it like
this the first time :)
--
Thomas Stegen
Thomas Stegen wrote:
> ilias wrote:
>
>> Thomas Stegen wrote:
>>
>>> ilias wrote:
>
>>>>> and C.L.L isn't here to validate your 'playing around' antics.
>>>>
>>>> why?
>>>
>>> Because the world does not revolve around you. Mine, at least,
>>> does not. C.L.L is here to discuss Lisp not anything else.
>>
>> i'm discussing Lisp.
>>
>> you discuss me.
>>
>> you revolve the world around me.
>
> No, right now I am discussing cll (,or similar communities).
lets agree that you discuss my behaviour in context of cll and/or usenet.
>>> The regulars decide the rules.
>>
>> decide.
>>
>> who follows?
>
> Anyone polite and decent understands that when seeking
> acceptance in a community, then one follows the rules
i don't seek acceptance in cll.
and i don't follow rules of regulars.
not in usenet.
this is a public newsgroup, and not a club of insiders.
> of that community. To change the rules you first need
i don't want to change rules
> to be accepted into the community and gain a thourough
> understanding of why the rules are formed the way they
> are. Remember, the unwritten rules are just as important
cll rules are superseded through usenet rules.
rest is politics.
digital politics.
not for me.
> as the written rules. In the case of unchartered
> newsgroups unwritten rules are the most important.
Knowing The Rule - Detecting The Case.
Sensing The Rule - Sensing The Case.
The detection of the case where you can apply the rule.
Do you detect, that we're violating rules just now?
My initial post does not violate rules.
>>>>> Get over yourself.
>>>>
>>>> why?
>>>
>>> Because it would be an improvement.
>>
>> sounds ok.
>
> A very good reply.
ok
>>>> I feel agression.
>>>>
>>>> Reflect to detect.
>>>>
>>>> Finishj.
>>>>
>>>> And then suggest.
>>>
>>> Sorry, but this makes no sense
>>
>> translate:
>> I think that i feel aggression in your words.
>>
>> Reflect all whats happen, to detect the real reasons of your doing.
>>
>> Finish with this process.
>>
>> And then came back and give me suggestions (i you still think you have
>> to).
>
> This makes more sense, and you should have written it like
> this the first time :)
i don't like to write to much, especially when things get off-topic.
"ilias" <·······@pontos.net> wrote in message
·················@usenet.otenet.gr...
Honestly, you have no clue.
I will not bother you again as you seem unable to understand
certain fundamentals of human interaction.
--
Thomas.
Thomas Stegen CES2000 wrote:
> "ilias" <·······@pontos.net> wrote in message
> ·················@usenet.otenet.gr...
>
> Honestly, you have no clue.
>
> I will not bother you again as you seem unable to understand
> certain fundamentals of human interaction.
words.
emtyness.
From: Peter Lewerin
Subject: Re: LISP - The Month is Past
Date:
Message-ID: <3D8B0713.604@swipnet.se>
>> I will not bother you again as you seem unable to understand
>> certain fundamentals of human interaction.
> words.
> emtyness.
As 'words' and 'emotions' are indeed fundamentals of human interaction
this raises the question if your biggest problem is with spelling or
with understanding.
Peter Lewerin wrote:
>>> I will not bother you again as you seem unable to understand
>>> certain fundamentals of human interaction.
>
>> words.
>> emtyness.
>
> As 'words' and 'emotions' are indeed fundamentals of human interaction
> this raises the question if your biggest problem is with spelling or
> with understanding.
words.
emptiness.
be happy.
sensitive linguistic human.
ilias wrote:
a few clarifications after replies i got.
> ·····················································@pontos.net
it looks like google does not archive all the thread-content.
does anybody know why?
> I had no respect. And i have still no respect. Yes, you are maybe
clarification:
I had nor respect => for people in cll.
And i still have still no respect => for people in cll.
> experts. But the only experts i accept, are experts in thinking.
>
> This has nothing to do with analytical strength. More with calm,
> context, wisdom, limits. I think you understand.
ilias wrote:
> clarification:
>
> I had nor respect => for people in cll.
> And i still have still no respect => for people in cll.
Hmmm. After this I am now more confused than before. Excellent. Keep
fighting the good fight: and remember "I have the strength of ten, for
my heart is pure!"
:)w
Will Deakin wrote:
> ilias wrote:
>
>> clarification:
>>
>> I had nor respect => for people in cll.
>> And i still have still no respect => for people in cll.
>
> Hmmm. After this I am now more confused than before. Excellent. Keep
I'm sorry.
I do not feel respect for the people in cll in the past.
I do not feel respect for the people in cll at this moment.
>>Yes, you are maybe experts.
>>But the only experts i accept, are experts in thinking.
translates:
even if you are experts in LISP, the only experts is accept (an have
respect for) are experts in thinking.
>> This has nothing to do with analytical strength.
This [expert in thinking] has nothing to do with analytical strength.
>>More with calm, context, wisdom, limits. I think you understand.
translates:
A person with calm, the ability to switch the context whilst viewing
things, with some wisdom and the awareness of his limits...
has my respect.
this is independent of the analytical strength the person has.
and of course independent of the knowledge the person has.
Thus, *any* expert can have my respect.
But the basic 'requirements' have nothing to do with his expertise and
knowledge.
> fighting the good fight: and remember "I have the strength of ten, for
> my heart is pure!"
>
> :)w
>
Braveheart?
Robin Hood?
ilias wrote:
>> fighting the good fight: and remember "I have the strength of ten, for
>> my heart is pure!"
>
> Braveheart?
>
> Robin Hood?
Salvation Army?
Alfred, Lord Tennyson?
;)w
Will Deakin <···········@hotmail.com> writes:
> ilias wrote:
> >> fighting the good fight: and remember "I have the strength of ten,
> >> for my heart is pure!"
> > Braveheart?
> > Robin Hood?
> Salvation Army?
>
> Alfred, Lord Tennyson?
"And then the true meaning of Christmas came through, and the Grinch
found the strength of ten Grinches plus two." [Dr. Seuss]
--
Rob St. Amant
http://www4.ncsu.edu/~stamant
ilias <·······@pontos.net> writes:
>
> I do not feel respect for the people in cll in the past.
> I do not feel respect for the people in cll at this moment.
So why are you wasting your time posting to a news group populated
by those you do not respect?
--
Thomas A. Russ, USC/Information Sciences Institute ···@isi.edu
Thomas A. Russ wrote:
> ilias <·······@pontos.net> writes:
>
>
>>I do not feel respect for the people in cll in the past.
>>I do not feel respect for the people in cll at this moment.
>
>
> So why are you wasting your time posting to a news group populated
> by those you do not respect?
hope.