Most of my programming is done in Ruby and ObjC, very Smalltalky languages.
I'm trying to learn Lisp mostly to get a feel for something different. Is
there any real danger that if I start using CLOS I'll just be learning to
write Smalltalk in Lisp syntax and that I'll never 'get' Lisp?
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In article <······················@fastq.com>,
Chris Gehlker <·······@fastq.com> wrote:
>Most of my programming is done in Ruby and ObjC, very Smalltalky languages.
>I'm trying to learn Lisp mostly to get a feel for something different. Is
>there any real danger that if I start using CLOS I'll just be learning to
>write Smalltalk in Lisp syntax and that I'll never 'get' Lisp?
No. Generic functions don't have the same feel as Smalltalk. They're
really object extensions of the Lisp way of doing things rather than
something grafted on.
You could write smalltalk in lisp syntax if you really insisted on it,
but if so it won't be the existence of CLOS that's the issue.
paul
On 11/15/02 8:24 AM, in article ························@reader1.panix.com,
"Paul Wallich" <··@panix.com> wrote:
> In article <······················@fastq.com>,
> Chris Gehlker <·······@fastq.com> wrote:
>
>> Most of my programming is done in Ruby and ObjC, very Smalltalky languages.
>> I'm trying to learn Lisp mostly to get a feel for something different. Is
>> there any real danger that if I start using CLOS I'll just be learning to
>> write Smalltalk in Lisp syntax and that I'll never 'get' Lisp?
>
> No. Generic functions don't have the same feel as Smalltalk. They're
> really object extensions of the Lisp way of doing things rather than
> something grafted on.
>
> You could write smalltalk in lisp syntax if you really insisted on it,
> but if so it won't be the existence of CLOS that's the issue.
Thanks, Paul. You and Kenny are very encouraging.
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Chris Gehlker wrote:
> Most of my programming is done in Ruby and ObjC, very Smalltalky languages.
> I'm trying to learn Lisp mostly to get a feel for something different. Is
> there any real danger that if I start using CLOS I'll just be learning to
> write Smalltalk in Lisp syntax and that I'll never 'get' Lisp?
I think that CLOS works differently enough from Smalltalk's OO model
that you'll be OK. I am thinking of generic functions, especially, which
do not in principle belong to any one class but instead are specialized
optionally on any non-optional argument. (parse that!)
and if you like OO, lawdy, wait till you see CLOS. Come to think of it,
that might be the best way to start since you are here to get a feel for
something different. You know ST and OC object models, now see what CLOS
is like (only one new domain, with well-understood domains to compare
against). Once you see what CLOS is like you will be stoked to see what
else CL has.
--
kenny tilton
clinisys, inc
---------------------------------------------------------------
""Well, I've wrestled with reality for thirty-five years, Doctor,
and I'm happy to state I finally won out over it.""
Elwood P. Dowd
On 11/15/02 8:04 AM, in article ················@nyc.rr.com, "Kenny Tilton"
<·······@nyc.rr.com> wrote:
> Chris Gehlker wrote:
>> Most of my programming is done in Ruby and ObjC, very Smalltalky languages.
>> I'm trying to learn Lisp mostly to get a feel for something different. Is
>> there any real danger that if I start using CLOS I'll just be learning to
>> write Smalltalk in Lisp syntax and that I'll never 'get' Lisp?
>
> I think that CLOS works differently enough from Smalltalk's OO model
> that you'll be OK. I am thinking of generic functions, especially, which
> do not in principle belong to any one class but instead are specialized
> optionally on any non-optional argument. (parse that!)
>
> and if you like OO, lawdy, wait till you see CLOS. Come to think of it,
> that might be the best way to start since you are here to get a feel for
> something different. You know ST and OC object models, now see what CLOS
> is like (only one new domain, with well-understood domains to compare
> against). Once you see what CLOS is like you will be stoked to see what
> else CL has.
Great. Thanks for the encouragement.
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Chris Gehlker wrote:
>
> Most of my programming is done in Ruby and ObjC, very Smalltalky languages.
> I'm trying to learn Lisp mostly to get a feel for something different. Is
> there any real danger that if I start using CLOS I'll just be learning to
> write Smalltalk in Lisp syntax and that I'll never 'get' Lisp?
The biggest problem I had with CLOS was that it made me unable to learn
C++: every time I try, I end up totally frustrated that anyone could
come up with anything so unnecessarily complicated.
--
On 11/15/02 7:57 AM, in article ·················@kolumbus.fi, "Martti
Halminen" <···············@kolumbus.fi> wrote:
> Chris Gehlker wrote:
>>
>> Most of my programming is done in Ruby and ObjC, very Smalltalky languages.
>> I'm trying to learn Lisp mostly to get a feel for something different. Is
>> there any real danger that if I start using CLOS I'll just be learning to
>> write Smalltalk in Lisp syntax and that I'll never 'get' Lisp?
>
> The biggest problem I had with CLOS was that it made me unable to learn
> C++: every time I try, I end up totally frustrated that anyone could
> come up with anything so unnecessarily complicated.
>
> --
Don't feel bad. Knowing *anything* (except Java) makes it hard to learn C++.
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From: Christopher C. Stacy
Subject: Re: CLOS harmful to Lisp newbie?
Date:
Message-ID: <u7kfelo26.fsf@dtpq.com>
>>>>> On Fri, 15 Nov 2002 07:39:19 -0700, Chris Gehlker ("Chris") writes:
Chris> Most of my programming is done in Ruby and ObjC, very Smalltalky languages.
Chris> I'm trying to learn Lisp mostly to get a feel for something different. Is
Chris> there any real danger that if I start using CLOS I'll just be learning to
Chris> write Smalltalk in Lisp syntax and that I'll never 'get' Lisp?
First you will need to implement SEND.
Oh, no, wait, we already tried that.
Have fun!
:)