Hi all.
Is the currently raging debate on "Why Scheme is not a Lisp?" an indication
that:
1) Scheme, Common Lisp and Lisp programmers in general have a lot of time on
their hands because:
1.1) as a result of s-expressions, they are more productive than other
programmers?
1.2) they are all unemployed?
1.3) either of possiblilities 1.1 and 1.2 applies separately to each of
the three population categories referred to in 1)?
1.4) they don't use Haskell or ML?
1.5) some other distribution of these possibilites?
2) Scheme, Common Lisp and Lisp programmers in general drink too much
coffee?
3) Nobody else will talk to Scheme, Common Lisp and Lisp programmers in
general, anymore.
Kindest (and warm) regards
Mike Thomas.
"Mike Thomas" <······@brisbane.paradigmgeo.com> writes:
> Is the currently raging debate on "Why Scheme is not a Lisp?" an indication
> that:
>
> 1) Scheme, Common Lisp and Lisp programmers in general have a lot of time on
> their hands because:
>
> 1.1) as a result of s-expressions, they are more productive than other
> programmers?
> 1.2) they are all unemployed?
> 1.3) either of possiblilities 1.1 and 1.2 applies separately to each of
> the three population categories referred to in 1)?
> 1.4) they don't use Haskell or ML?
> 1.5) some other distribution of these possibilites?
>
> 2) Scheme, Common Lisp and Lisp programmers in general drink too much
> coffee?
>
> 3) Nobody else will talk to Scheme, Common Lisp and Lisp programmers in
> general, anymore.
All of the above.
Specifically for qn 1, definitely 1.3 and 1.5.
At least nowadays Lisp and Scheme hackers don't smell bad. They used
to when they could only get their work done in the lab and hence would
spend days at a time flaming each other about how their languages
sucked. Nowadays they can flame each other from home and have
convenient access to a shower. Not that this matters, since none of
them have any friends who would care how they smell.
>:^)
'james
--
James A. Crippen <·····@unlambda.com> ,-./-. Anchorage, Alaska,
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·····@unlambda.com (James A. Crippen) writes:
> At least nowadays Lisp and Scheme hackers don't smell bad. They used
> to when they could only get their work done in the lab and hence would
> spend days at a time flaming each other about how their languages
> sucked. Nowadays they can flame each other from home and have
> convenient access to a shower. Not that this matters, since none of
> them have any friends who would care how they smell.
>
> >:^)
This smells like add-home-in-'em reasoning.
> All of the above.
>
> Specifically for qn 1, definitely 1.3 and 1.5.
>
> At least nowadays Lisp and Scheme hackers don't smell bad. They used
> to when they could only get their work done in the lab and hence would
> spend days at a time flaming each other about how their languages
> sucked. Nowadays they can flame each other from home and have
> convenient access to a shower. Not that this matters, since none of
> them have any friends who would care how they smell.
>
> >:^)
I assure you that here at CMU the tradition of spending days at a time
in the lab without showering is carried on by a good percentage of the
CS students. The "normal" people steer clear of the danger zones ;)
I wouldn't be surprised if some other universities are similar, though.
--
; Matthew Danish <·······@andrew.cmu.edu>
; OpenPGP public key: C24B6010 on keyring.debian.org
; Signed or encrypted mail welcome.
; "There is no dark side of the moon really; matter of fact, it's all dark."
·······@andrew.cmu.edu writes:
> > All of the above.
> >
> > Specifically for qn 1, definitely 1.3 and 1.5.
> >
> > At least nowadays Lisp and Scheme hackers don't smell bad. They used
> > to when they could only get their work done in the lab and hence would
> > spend days at a time flaming each other about how their languages
> > sucked. Nowadays they can flame each other from home and have
> > convenient access to a shower. Not that this matters, since none of
> > them have any friends who would care how they smell.
> >
> > >:^)
>
> I assure you that here at CMU the tradition of spending days at a time
> in the lab without showering is carried on by a good percentage of the
> CS students. The "normal" people steer clear of the danger zones ;)
>
> I wouldn't be surprised if some other universities are similar, though.
As someone who lives near the large CS buildings, I can assure you
that, at least on days when the wind blows westward, that is also the
case at UCB.
[ On the other hand, the people most knowledgeable about matters
related to hygene -- microbiologists -- are so obsessed with
showering regularly that they keep showers in the halls outside
their labs! ]
--
/|_ .-----------------------.
,' .\ / | No to Imperialist war |
,--' _,' | Wage class war! |
/ / `-----------------------'
( -. |
| ) |
(`-. '--.)
`. )----'
> At least nowadays Lisp and Scheme hackers don't smell bad. They used
> to when they could only get their work done in the lab and hence would
> spend days at a time flaming each other about how their languages
> sucked. Nowadays they can flame each other from home and have
> convenient access to a shower. Not that this matters, since none of
> them have any friends who would care how they smell.
>
> >:^)
I imagined people like the programmer in "Jurassic Park" sitting around in
the pub doing email with palm pilots running pocket scheme.
Cheers
Mike Thomas.
"Mike Thomas" <······@brisbane.paradigmgeo.com> writes:
> Hi all.
>
> Is the currently raging debate on "Why Scheme is not a Lisp?" an indication
> that:
>
> 1) Scheme, Common Lisp and Lisp programmers in general have a lot of time on
> their hands because:
Absolutely. There is no better place to go than Usenet if you want to
draw conclusions about communities in general. :-)
All joking aside, it's simply an indication that some people feel
strongly that it's important to emphasize common ground between the two
communities, while others feel strongly that it's important to establish
distance between the communities. Still others go back and forth
between those first two positions depending on what they're trying to
accomplish.
--
<·······@[(if (brl-related? message) ; Bruce R. Lewis
"users.sourceforge.net" ; http://brl.sourceforge.net/
"alum.mit.edu")]>
* Bruce Lewis <·······@yahoo.com>
| All joking aside, it's simply an indication that some people feel
| strongly that it's important to emphasize common ground between the two
| communities, while others feel strongly that it's important to establish
| distance between the communities. Still others go back and forth between
| those first two positions depending on what they're trying to accomplish.
That does not rhyme with any of the Scheme vs Common Lisp discussions I
have ever seen _anywhere_. What kinds of communities have you observed
and now think you see again? Scheme people come here with a "we're right
and you're wrong" attitude. There is certainly no "common ground" they
seek, probabl because Common Lisp _is_ the very definition of common
ground in the Lisp community, and Scheme is not it. What most Common
Lispers do in return is ask these people to consider the possibility that
more than one thing can be right -- but still not inviting them into the
fold until they do accept that Common Lisp got something right. There is
no common ground between people who think the other party cannot be right
and people who want to be respected for their choices. The ability to
listen appears to be unusually concentrated on the Common Lisp side,
while the Scheme side is unusually strong on talking, and when they are
asked to please listen before they talk, they get hostile. That is why
we have the same goddamn discussions over and over and over with the
Scheme freaks, who either completely fail to learn, as a community, or
who _breed_ people of such arrogance that they repeat this obnoxious
attitude problem and think they have finally figured out this Lisp thing,
and then Common Lisp stands there in the way and says "Bzzzt! Wrong!".
Maybe that offends them or something, but what it seems the Scheme freaks
are trying to do is to say "We're the Lisp, and you're not!". That is
neither a desire for a common ground nor a desire to distance the two, it
is a hostile takeover attempt.
///
--
In a fight against something, the fight has value, victory has none.
In a fight for something, the fight is a loss, victory merely relief.