From: Oliver Vecernik
Subject: searching recommendations
Date:
Message-ID: <3C68ED41.6030404@aon.at>
Hi Lispers,
I'm evaluating some programming languages for use of my new project. I
started with Java, Perl, Python, Scheme and now CL.
I'd like to do extensive database queries (PostgreSQL, Oracle, MS-SQL)
and need to have a GUI on Windows as well as on Linux. I also need the
possibility for text displays and dynamic web page generation. The
generated code should be compiled to native code (for Windows and Linux
respectively) at the end.
Of course this could be achived using C, but personally I don't like C
and I think I'm faster using "a modern language".
Would you recommend CL for my project? Where should I start? Are there
libraries for database support, report generating and GUI design?
Any hints are highly appreciated.
Best Regards,
Oliver
Oliver Vecernik <········@aon.at> writes:
> I'd like to do extensive database queries (PostgreSQL, Oracle,
> MS-SQL) and need to have a GUI on Windows as well as on Linux. I
> also need the possibility for text displays and dynamic web page
> generation. The generated code should be compiled to native code
> (for Windows and Linux respectively) at the end.
Sounds like you should evaluate the commercial offerings from Xanalys
and Franz. They also have free trial versions available. See
<http://www-jcsu.jesus.cam.ac.uk/~csr21/lispfaq.html#AEN105> for
pointers.
Edi.
--
Dr. Edmund Weitz
Hamburg
Germany
The Common Lisp Cookbook
<http://agharta.de/cookbook/>
Hi, Oliver!
> I'm evaluating some programming languages for use of my new project. I
> started with Java, Perl, Python, Scheme and now CL.
>
> I'd like to do extensive database queries (PostgreSQL, Oracle, MS-SQL)
> and need to have a GUI on Windows as well as on Linux.
GUI is a weak point with CL. If you have experience with windowing on
"standard" languages and systems, you probably won't like LISP's
cross-platform toolkit CLIM.
> I also need the
> possibility for text displays and dynamic web page generation.
LISP is used for web servers quite often nowadays. And what about doing
the GUI by means of web pages?
> The
> generated code should be compiled to native code (for Windows and Linux
> respectively) at the end.
>
> Of course this could be achived using C, but personally I don't like C
> and I think I'm faster using "a modern language".
I agree. Although LISP isn't exactly a "modern language", as it was
invented back in 1958, AFAIK.
> Would you recommend CL for my project? Where should I start?
By hiring an experienced LISP programmer to get you started ;-).
Last year, we formed a project team with 2 experienced LISPers and
4 experienced C/C++ programmers. It took some time to get them
used to the LISP way of programming.
> Are there
> libraries for database support, report generating and GUI design?
To be honest, I'd do it in Java. There, the chances are better to get
all
the interfacing libraries you need (most of them already in the free
SDK).
--- Ralf
Ralf Kleberhoff <····@kleberhoff.de> writes:
> Hi, Oliver!
>
> > I'm evaluating some programming languages for use of my new project. I
> > started with Java, Perl, Python, Scheme and now CL.
> >
> > I'd like to do extensive database queries (PostgreSQL, Oracle, MS-SQL)
> > and need to have a GUI on Windows as well as on Linux.
>
> GUI is a weak point with CL. If you have experience with windowing on
> "standard" languages and systems, you probably won't like LISP's
> cross-platform toolkit CLIM.
I just don't get this. How is GUI a weak point? What other language
besides Java has good cross-platform toolkits? Cross-platform GUIs
are a strong point for Java, but I don't think it's reasonable to call
them a weak point for everything else!
> > Of course this could be achived using C, but personally I don't like C
> > and I think I'm faster using "a modern language".
>
> I agree. Although LISP isn't exactly a "modern language", as it was
> invented back in 1958, AFAIK.
You're right, LISP was. Common Lisp wasn't. It's an early-90s
product.
--
/|_ .-----------------------.
,' .\ / | No to Imperialist war |
,--' _,' | Wage class war! |
/ / `-----------------------'
( -. |
| ) |
(`-. '--.)
`. )----'
>>>>> "TFB" == Thomas F Burdick <···@apocalypse.OCF.Berkeley.EDU> writes:
Ralf Kleberhoff <····@kleberhoff.de> writes:
>> GUI is a weak point with CL. If you have experience with
>> windowing on "standard" languages and systems, you probably
>> won't like LISP's cross-platform toolkit CLIM.
TFB> I just don't get this. How is GUI a weak point? What other
TFB> language besides Java has good cross-platform toolkits? [...]
You are partly right. Tk and its bindings to Tcl/Python (perl?) is
the obvious exception. Tk/Tcl set-up is cross-platform (WinXX and
various unixes on verious CPU's), Python/Tkinter seems to be the
same. Of course these are from a 'single vendor' but this is glossed
over because they are free. CLIM comes close, and if you want CLIM
and Win/Unix compatibility your choices are, Allegro and LispWorks.
McCLIM is CLX-based (ruling out Windows) and Corman does not have
CLIM. Only LispWorks bundles CLIM with their base "for money"
product. Based on their list prices, you can get an ASI CL + CLIM for
$900 for Windows or x86 Linux (ie $1800 gets you both, with the
ability to use Allogro+CLIM or LW on any other Unix they support for
more money doen the line). For the Mac, MCL does have CLIM.
RK's point, I believe, was that CLIM, while satisfying the
'cross-platform' criterion, is too unusual for people who are used to
other toolkits. That is a fair remark, but I guess the same can be
said about CL itself!
cheers,
BM
Bulent Murtezaoglu wrote:
> You are partly right. Tk and its bindings to Tcl/Python (perl?) is
> the obvious exception. Tk/Tcl set-up is cross-platform (WinXX and
> various unixes on verious CPU's), Python/Tkinter seems to be the
> same. Of course these are from a 'single vendor' but this is glossed
> over because they are free. CLIM comes close, and if you want CLIM
> and Win/Unix compatibility your choices are, Allegro and LispWorks.
> McCLIM is CLX-based (ruling out Windows) and Corman does not have
> CLIM. Only LispWorks bundles CLIM with their base "for money"
> product. Based on their list prices, you can get an ASI CL + CLIM for
> $900 for Windows or x86 Linux (ie $1800 gets you both, with the
> ability to use Allogro+CLIM or LW on any other Unix they support for
> more money doen the line). For the Mac, MCL does have CLIM.
There are X-Servers (even free) for Windows. So Windows is strictly spoken
not ruled out in regard to McCLIM. Furthermore McCLIM seems to be written
in a rather portable way - CLX is only a backend (OpenGL another). It
should be possible to provide a native Win32 backend. The CLX backend is
particularily interesting because it enables gfx access without hacking FFI
code to C libraries. All you need is a socket interface.
AFAICT the developers of McCLIM concentrated more on getting the CLIM
infrastructure running than on providing a wide range of backend code which
is IMHO a good idea.
But I think your description of the overall situation is correct.
ciao,
Jochen
--
http://www.dataheaven.de
On 14 Feb 2002 13:10:42 -0800, ···@apocalypse.OCF.Berkeley.EDU (Thomas F.
Burdick) wrote:
>> > I'm evaluating some programming languages for use of my new project. I
>> > started with Java, Perl, Python, Scheme and now CL.
>> >
>> > I'd like to do extensive database queries (PostgreSQL, Oracle, MS-SQL)
>> > and need to have a GUI on Windows as well as on Linux.
>>
>> GUI is a weak point with CL. If you have experience with windowing on
>> "standard" languages and systems, you probably won't like LISP's
>> cross-platform toolkit CLIM.
>
>I just don't get this. How is GUI a weak point? What other language
>besides Java has good cross-platform toolkits?
Common Lisp for example. ;-) CLIM, CAPI and garnet.
----
Fernando Rodr�guez
frr at wanadoo dot es
-------
On 14 Feb 2002, Thomas F. Burdick wrote:
[snip]
> I just don't get this. How is GUI a weak point? What other language
> besides Java has good cross-platform toolkits?
Smalltalk! :) Actually, if you limit yourself to Windows and Linux there
are quite a few, including Common Lisp (e.g., LispWorks CAPI, I
believe). SWI-Prolog has a nice library (XPCE, which has CL bindings, or
did at one point)>
> Cross-platform GUIs
> are a strong point for Java, but I don't think it's reasonable to call
> them a weak point for everything else!
[snip]
Yep.
Cheers,
Bijan Parsia.