I am looking for work and hoping to continue my streak with Lisp job #4.
Are there any resources out there I am not aware of?
I have explored and continue to explore:
Flipdog.com
Dice.com
Franz.com/careers
A hundred other general job sites (are there any other particularily good
ones?)
I have applications in process with ITA and Dotcast. MDL is not looking
anymore. Anyone know another company besides these that is looking?
Any good resources I have missed? I will consider relocation globally.
http://resumes.dice.com/cobybeck
--
Coby Beck
(remove #\Space "coby 101 @ bigpond . com")
Coby Beck wrote:
>
> I am looking for work and hoping to continue my streak with Lisp job #4.
> Are there any resources out there I am not aware of?
>
> I have explored and continue to explore:
> Flipdog.com
> Dice.com
> Franz.com/careers
> Any good resources I have missed? I will consider relocation globally.
> http://resumes.dice.com/cobybeck
Well, yes, and I have one good tidbut of info to give you. But first I
need to recount a little story why I happen to know that tidbit.
Once long ago the marketing department at a certain unnamed company I
happen to work for arranged to have me assigned a little project. I
was to write a web spider that would screen scrape Lisp-related job
listings so that company's web site could have a centralized
repository of current jobs that would be useful to the community.
We didn't intend to short-circuit the several job-listing sites on
the internet -- we only intended to put all the lisp jobs in one place
that would link to the various listings on the major job sites.
The thing was a bit tedious to code since destructuring html into
useful information more than tedious, and significant changes to the
scraped web sites could break the scraping algorithms. Still, it
worked, and the problem was interesting in a number of ways. One of
the more interesting issues was evaluating the relevance of any
particular job listing. It is easy on any of the major job search
engines to search for "lisp" in job descriptions, but that leads to
lots of trash: Many descriptions include lisp in a shopping list of
exotic background technologies, but there is really no lisp
involvement in the position. There are also a lot of Autolisp and
CAD jobs which are probably uninteresting to the CL community.
Eventually I came up with a heuristic that assigned a numeric
relevance ranking that correlated reasonably well with my own
intuitive ranking of the listings. It is also the first time in 15
years of CL programming that I have needed a function like tanh.
Anyway, the thing eventually worked, producing a web page that would
be a boon to seekers of lisp jobs (but not providing anything they
couldn't get by themselves by spending 15 minutes visiting the same
job search sites themselves). I delivered this tool to said
marketing department. That was about 18 months ago. So far it
hasn't appeared, although I am reliably informed that they still
intend to put it into production, someday.
So, finally, here's the nugget of information. Of all the major jobs
sites that I scanned in this project, by far the most productive
was monster.com. I don't know why, but they seemed always to have a
larger number of "interesting" Lisp jobs than the competitors. It is
true that a year or two ago there were more jobs than now, but I
believe this is more due to general economic conditions than the
relevance of Lisp.
Best of luck in your search.
"Steven M. Haflich" <·······@pacbell.net> wrote:
>sites that I scanned in this project, by far the most productive
>was monster.com. I don't know why, but they seemed always to have a
>larger number of "interesting" Lisp jobs than the competitors. It is
>true that a year or two ago there were more jobs than now, but I
>believe this is more due to general economic conditions than the
>relevance of Lisp.
http://jobsearch.monster.com/jobsearch.asp?cy=US&brd=1&lid=&fn=6&q=lisp
Of the 6 jobs that a search for "lisp" threw up, not a single one was
actually for lisp.
Most were for Java or C++.
for example:
http://jobsearch.monster.com/getjob.asp?JobID=13747933&col=&cy=US&brd=1&lid=&fn=6&q=lisp&AVSDM=2002%2D01%2D16+11%3A37%3A00%2E000&CCD=my%2Emonster%2Ecom&JSD=jobsearch%2Emonster%2Ecom&HD=company%2Emonster%2Ecom&AD=http%3A%2F%2Fjobsearch%2Emonster%2Ecom%2Fjobsearch%2Easp%3Fcy%3DUS%26brd%3D1%26lid%3D%26fn%3D6%26q%3Dlisp&Logo=1
"US-CA-Redwood City-Senior Architect
6+ years of enterprise-class server software development.
2+ years working as an architect on an enterprise software development
product.
3+ years of Java development experience, and 3+ years of development
experience with some other object-oriented or systems language (C/C++
Smalltalk, Lisp, Eiffel, etc.)."
The sites you mentioned are ok (I use them, too), but I have found that
long before companies resort to, e.g. Dice, they look via word-of-mouth,
and then locally, and *then* through a local headhunter, and *then* Dice
and *then* through a headhunter that finally gives up and puts the same
ad on Dice a year later. It's pathetic to see this happen, but I did
with MDL and DotCast and so on.
Anyway, I sometimes use google to search for "Employment Opportunities
Lisp". Here's why. When the shops are first going to a public job
posting, they put in on their own website to hopefully attract people
who are interested in that particular company anyway, and who are
probably aware of them by being a local candidate. That way they
(naively) hope to find a local candidate who already wants to work
there.
Those internal URLs are often labeled "Employment Opportunities" or
"Careers" or similarly. It also helps screen out the generic websites.
It's still a crapshoot and requires tinkering with the search strings,
but it does (sometimes) get you one step deeper into the pile.
Good luck.
Eric
Eric Moss <········@alltel.net> writes:
> The sites you mentioned are ok (I use them, too), but I have found that
> long before companies resort to, e.g. Dice, they look via word-of-mouth,
> and then locally, and *then* through a local headhunter, and *then* Dice
> and *then* through a headhunter that finally gives up and puts the same
> ad on Dice a year later. It's pathetic to see this happen, but I did
> with MDL and DotCast and so on.
If any employer is reading this I'd recommend posting to c.l.l as a
straightforward and inexpensive recruitment method.
I've done this on a number of occassions and had success each time - 5
of the 6 developers we've recruited in the past three years came via
this route.
Mark
{{Date: 13 Feb 2002 09:27:12 +0000
From: Mark Dalgarno <·············@scientia.com>
If any employer is reading this I'd recommend posting to c.l.l as a
straightforward and inexpensive recruitment method.
I've done this on a number of occassions and had success each time -
5 of the 6 developers we've recruited in the past three years came
via this route.}}
Searched Groups for group:comp.lang.lisp
····················@scientia.com. Results 1 - 20 of about 23.
Search took 0.28 seconds.
Not a single one of those threads looks like a job announcement.
Perhaps you posted from some other address? If so, please tell me so
that I can find the job ads you claim you posted here.
On Mon, 11 Aug 2003 15:20:28 -0700, ··········@YahooGroups.Com wrote:
>Not a single one of those threads looks like a job announcement.
>Perhaps you posted from some other address? If so, please tell me so
>that I can find the job ads you claim you posted here.
Really...you aren't *still* complaining about how much posts don't
*look* like job postings to you are you?
Maybe if after ten years of trying and failing to get a single Lisp
job, you should give up on Lisp and go do something else.
Perhaps I'm just young and fresh, having been in the industry only 10
years or so, but your attitude is asinine (look it up at m-w.com,
that's the best definition).
I've only been watching this group for a couple of weeks now, but the
audience is much small enough that when your name pops up frequently,
it's easy to notice. I've noticed you popping up frequently and
complaining. Personally, I would never hire someone who has a persona
like you do.
Seriously, if you are so bitter about it, why have you only posted to
one newsgroup for the last 10 years? Haven't you heard of hitting the
pavement? I imagine a lot of Lisp jobs are given based on personal
recommendation.
I saw someone post 30+ jobs earlier, admittedly not all of them were
Lisp jobs, but there were several that were. Yet on every single job
you pre-emptively dismissed it. In my personal opinion, you don't
really want a Lisp job, you just want to bitch about not having one.
Some of us do Lisp simply because we are fascinated with it. I don't
have a Lisp job as of yet, rather I program in:
C# ;; ick
VB ;; dear god
Python ;; not too bad
The only reason I don't do Lisp at work is because I don't feel
comfortable enough trying to solve enterprise level problems with it.
When I started at this job, there were three other programmers, they
were using mostly Access and some VB / Sql Server. When I got hired I
convinced them to start using C# for some things (because it's an all
Microsoft shop) and later Python. Maybe one day when I'm comfortable
enough I can introduce Lisp.
The point of that little diatribe was that when you get hired for a
position, if you have a skillset that will allow the company to do
things better / faster / cheaper, they will usually let you implement
it. Sometimes it takes a little persistance and a lot of
presentation, ultimately it boils down to how much you really believe
in the technology and how much you can convince the company of the
benefits.
It's up to you man, the future is seriously in your hands, you can
make your job what you want it to be. I have never worked at any job
that I couldn't use free support tools in order to speed up my
production work, in fact every position I've had I've been able to get
whatever I needed to make me more profitable in my job. Just make a
good business case for it and any sane company will help you make them
more money.
Do it, but for god's sake, please stop complaining about it.
Doug Tolton
{{Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 02:37:34 GMT
From: Doug Tolton <·······@yahoo.com>
Maybe if after ten years of trying and failing to get a single Lisp
job, you should give up on Lisp and go do something else.}}
Like what?? What could I do that I've never done before that would be
worth somebody paying me? I've been looking for "entry level" jobs
during all the time I've been employed, but all the so-called entry
level jobs I saw required at least one year experience doing something
I've never done at all, so I don't qualify for even "entry level" jobs.
I haven't seen any true entry-level jobs, which don't require any
specific experience at all, in any kind of work I could do at all.
{{why have you only posted to one newsgroup for the last 10 years?}}
Your question is bogus because it has a false assumption.
I've posted to lots of newsgroups.
{{The only reason I don't do Lisp at work is because I don't feel
comfortable enough trying to solve enterprise level problems with it.}}
What does "enterprise level" mean? Do you personally believe LISP isn't
suitable for such programming, or just that you aren't good enough at
LISP to figure out how to do it? With my greater experience in LISP,
maybe I can help you apply LISP to some of your work.
{{when you get hired for a position, if you have a skillset that will
allow the company to do things better / faster / cheaper, they will
usually let you implement it.}}
But that's only after you get hired in the first place, which is only
after you get interviewed, which is only after they really look at your
resume instead of just tossing it in the trash because you don't have
3-5 years commercial experience using C++ or Java.
On Tue, 12 Aug 2003 19:11:55 -0700, ··········@YahooGroups.Com wrote:
> Like what?? What could I do that I've never done before that would be
> worth somebody paying me? I've been looking for "entry level" jobs
By the way, you should have a good look at, and think about, Mark Watson's
way of doing business:
http://www.markwatson.com
Since you aren't apparently willing to relocate, note that Mark lives in a
beautiful but remote place, yet he succeeds in using Lisp and whatever
tools he finds interesting or useful. By the way, Mark has just posted
about an opening for a small Lisp consulting job:
······················@news.esedona.net
> But that's only after you get hired in the first place, which is only
> after you get interviewed, which is only after they really look at your
> resume instead of just tossing it in the trash because you don't have
> 3-5 years commercial experience using C++ or Java.
Mark presumably had no need to do any interviews.
Paolo
--
Paolo Amoroso <·······@mclink.it>
In article <··································@4ax.com>,
Doug Tolton <·······@yahoo.com> wrote:
> The only reason I don't do Lisp at work is because I don't feel
> comfortable enough trying to solve enterprise level problems with it.
> When I started at this job, there were three other programmers, they
> were using mostly Access and some VB / Sql Server. When I got hired I
> convinced them to start using C# for some things (because it's an all
> Microsoft shop) and later Python. Maybe one day when I'm comfortable
> enough I can introduce Lisp.
>
> The point of that little diatribe was that when you get hired for a
> position, if you have a skillset that will allow the company to do
> things better / faster / cheaper, they will usually let you implement
> it. Sometimes it takes a little persistance and a lot of
> presentation, ultimately it boils down to how much you really believe
> in the technology and how much you can convince the company of the
> benefits.
That's true.
I've been in a new job for nearly ten months. I was hired as a
C/C++/Java programmer, in a field in which I have nearly zero previous
experience. What am I doing at the moment? Integrating a Lisp into the
company's core C++-based product, and using it to implement complex
logic for tens of thousands of pseudo threads in a (hopefully!) easier
to write and maintain but still high performance way. When it goes live
there will be on the order of half a million users, and within a year or
so as other customers upgrade it it likely to have several tens of
millions of users.
It can be done, but you don't start off by looking for "Lisp" jobs.
-- Bruce
On Mon, 11 Aug 2003 15:20:28 -0700, ··········@YahooGroups.Com wrote:
>{{Date: 13 Feb 2002 09:27:12 +0000
> From: Mark Dalgarno <·············@scientia.com>
> If any employer is reading this I'd recommend posting to c.l.l as a
> straightforward and inexpensive recruitment method.
> I've done this on a number of occassions and had success each time -
> 5 of the 6 developers we've recruited in the past three years came
> via this route.}}
>
> Searched Groups for group:comp.lang.lisp
> ····················@scientia.com. Results 1 - 20 of about 23.
> Search took 0.28 seconds.
>Not a single one of those threads looks like a job announcement.
>Perhaps you posted from some other address? If so, please tell me so
>that I can find the job ads you claim you posted here.
Try my alternate email address ····@scientia.com
Mark
{{Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 09:51:47 +0100
From: Mark Dalgarno <·············@scientia.com>
Try my alternate email address ····@scientia.com}}
Thanks, I found your job ads, most recently in late 2000, before that
in early 2000 and mid-1999, all in England. I presume none of these are
still open, and even if they were I doubt they'd allow me to
telecommute from California. But if I'm mistaken please let me know and
maybe I'll apply.
Jumping in for no particular reason at this point, if someone wants a
Lisp job the best thing they can do is help promote Lisp. The tide is
already turning, so it is not like it is going to be a long drawn-out
battle like some here have been fighting. If you are a newbie, add to:
http://www.cliki.net/The%20RtLS%20by%20Road
If you can afford it, come to:
http://www.international-lisp-conference.org/
If not, hang out at your local monthly Lispnik gathering. They draw a
lot of newbies.
If you are a good Lisp programmer, kick my butt at RoboCup. I am just
days away from releasing a starter Lisp client that will get you past
low-level crud and let you hit the ground running.
http://www.robocup2003.org/Default.jsp
Or do add to Cliki or help with the ALU web site or add to the CL
Cookbook, or do something like Erann with his dummy guides.
The networking could lead to an existing Lisp job even before your
efforts kick off a wave of Lisp hiring.
Now is the time for all good lispniks to....
--
kenny tilton
clinisys, inc
http://www.tilton-technology.com/
---------------------------------------------------------------
"Career highlights? I had two. I got an intentional walk from
Sandy Koufax and I got out of a rundown against the Mets."
-- Bob Uecker
{{Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 20:23:12 GMT
From: Kenny Tilton <·······@nyc.rr.com>
If you are a good Lisp programmer, kick my butt at RoboCup.}}
I don't believe your implication is valid. LISP is a general purpose
programming language, suitable for a wide variety of tasks. Different
LISP programmers use LISP for different kinds of tasks. You seem to be
implying that the only use for LISP is robotics, hence anybody good at
LISP must consequently be good at robotics. I have 15 years LISP
programming experience, but no experience at robotics, and no idea how
to get good at robotics to "kick your butt" at a robotics-programming
competition. Now perhaps as an assistant to a robotics expert, where
the expert tells me the algorithm and I implement it, I might be
useful. But I see no prospect of any such situation, so I see no
possible way I could participate in such a contest.
{{Or do add to Cliki or help with the ALU web site}}
I rather doubt some employer looking for C++/Java programmers is going
to see my work in Cliki or ALU and decide to scrap his plans for
C++/Java software and hire me to do the work in LISP instead.
{{or add to the CL Cookbook}}
I looked at that a bit. Some very basic things are overlooked in the
cookbooks I saw. The stuff that was present begged the question on
these really basic things. For example, how to create a string at run
time? Well, in LISP it's trivial, you can use READ on a stream that has
the print representation of a string such as "Hello", or you can use
READ-LINE on any text file, or you can use MAKE-STRING. In most other
languages, it's not quite so easy, or it's even impossible, to create a
string at runtime. Also, defining a string in source code, so it'll be
available at runtime, which is possible in most languages, should be
mentionned too. These sorts of basic tasks should be mentionned in the
cookbook *before* telling how to do various things once you already
have a string.
Here's a more advanced thing that should be defined in generic
mathematical terms: Given a set of data objects, as defined by some
grammar, such as all strings of text, or all objects of some particular
kind, and given an equivalence relation on that set, as defined by a
program function which takes two arguments from that set and returns a
true/false result as to whether the two objects are considered
equivalent, implement the following capability: A lookup table, whereby
key-value pairs can be entered into the table, and then given a new key
the table can be searched to find any existing entry equivalent to the
given key (per the equivalence function above), and if such an entry is
found then the associated value can be returned and/or changed to a new
value. In Common LISP, the ASSOC function, with the :TEST keyword
argument, does most of the work. In many other languages, there's no
easy way to do the task.
{{or do something like Erann with his dummy guides.}}
I've always been turned off by the idea of calling somebody a "dummy"
just because they don't happen to know something that you know.
I'd rather the whole fad of "Dummy" stuff go away.
What's wrong with just "beginner/introductory/GettingStarted tutorials"
like in the old days before the "Dummy" fad?
{{The networking could lead to an existing Lisp job even before your
efforts kick off a wave of Lisp hiring.}}
Would it be inappropriate for any work I do toward the cookbook to
contain a blatant notice that I've unemployed and deep in debt and on
the verge of becoming homeless in a few months and really need some
paying work? Otherwise, anybody who likes my contribution would think
"he's so good at LISP that he probably has a good job already and it'd
be a waste of our effort to offer him a job" and of course anybody who
doesn't think I'm good at LISP wouldn't want to hire me anyway.
Does the average employer look through contributions to the cookbook
checking each good contributor to see whether he's already employed and
if not then offering him a job?
In article <·················@Yahoo.Com>, ··········@YahooGroups.Com wrote:
> {{Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 20:23:12 GMT
> From: Kenny Tilton <·······@nyc.rr.com>
> If you are a good Lisp programmer, kick my butt at RoboCup.}}
>
> I don't believe your implication is valid. LISP is a general purpose
> programming language, suitable for a wide variety of tasks. Different
> LISP programmers use LISP for different kinds of tasks. You seem to be
> implying that the only use for LISP is robotics, hence anybody good at
> LISP must consequently be good at robotics. I have 15 years LISP
> programming experience, but no experience at robotics, and no idea how
> to get good at robotics to "kick your butt" at a robotics-programming
> competition. Now perhaps as an assistant to a robotics expert, where
> the expert tells me the algorithm and I implement it, I might be
> useful. But I see no prospect of any such situation, so I see no
> possible way I could participate in such a contest.
Ye gods! How do you think robotics experts get to be robotics experts?
Do you think they are born with the Robotics Expertise gene? Has the
thought of READING never entered your mind? Or approaching a robotics
expert and asking for their help?
Look, I know it sounds like we're just ragging on you for the fun of it,
but we're really not. We are trying to help you. But you are going to
have to come to grips with the fact that the world just doesn't work the
way you think it works. Just because you're a smart guy doesn't entitle
you to a job. There is no Brotherhood of Lispers who is going to arrange
for your employment simply because you are a fellow Lisper on the verge of
homelessness, and so simply advertsing on Usenet that you are a Lisper on
the verge of homelessness is not likely to be effective. If you don't
believe me, just look at the facts. You have been advertising your Lisp
experience and dire financial straights on c.l.l. for quite some time
now. I presume it hasn't resulted in any job offers or we would not be
having this conversation. How much time has to go by before you seriously
entertain the possibility that there might actually be some causal (or
acausal as the case may be) relationship here?
> {{or do something like Erann with his dummy guides.}}
>
> I've always been turned off by the idea of calling somebody a "dummy"
> just because they don't happen to know something that you know.
They're "idiot's guides", not dummy guides, and the titles are intended to
be ironically humourous because it is ambiguous whether the titles refer
to the author or the intended audience. (For the record, Erik Naggum is
the one who originally suggested the title, not me.) In any case...
> I'd rather the whole fad of "Dummy" stuff go away.
> What's wrong with just "beginner/introductory/GettingStarted tutorials"
> like in the old days before the "Dummy" fad?
When you write yours you can call them whatever you want.
> {{The networking could lead to an existing Lisp job even before your
> efforts kick off a wave of Lisp hiring.}}
>
> Would it be inappropriate for any work I do toward the cookbook to
> contain a blatant notice that I've unemployed and deep in debt and on
> the verge of becoming homeless in a few months and really need some
> paying work? Otherwise, anybody who likes my contribution would think
> "he's so good at LISP that he probably has a good job already and it'd
> be a waste of our effort to offer him a job" and of course anybody who
> doesn't think I'm good at LISP wouldn't want to hire me anyway.
> Does the average employer look through contributions to the cookbook
> checking each good contributor to see whether he's already employed and
> if not then offering him a job?
This will no doubt come as a great shock to you, but you have this exactly
backwards. You actually improve your chances of getting job offers
dramatically if people think you already have a job.
Imagine you're going to a restaurant. (I know, I know, you're poor, you
can't afford restaurants. Just imagine, OK?) Before you are two
restaurants that you've never been to, outwardly identical in all
respects, except that one is empty and the other one has a line of people
waiting to get in. Which would you choose?
E.
On Wed, 27 Aug 2003, Erann Gat wrote:
[snip]
> Imagine you're going to a restaurant. (I know, I know, you're poor, you
> can't afford restaurants. Just imagine, OK?) Before you are two
> restaurants that you've never been to, outwardly identical in all
> respects, except that one is empty and the other one has a line of people
> waiting to get in. Which would you choose?
Just happened to catch my eye....
I'd skip the long lines since I generally hate them. I'd check the empty
one just in case it was ok, or had some overlooked acceptibilty (after
all, the other place might just be trendy, but the food equally good), and
then probably go somewhere else altogether.
Cheers,
Bijan Parsia.
This is an old Microeconomics problem
Now Imagine that the only reason the full restaurant has a line was
because the first few people chose at random and everybody else followed
along.
Imagine that the emptier restaurant had better food (but evidently a
poor marketing budget for countering this perception problem:-) but a
risk-averse and unthinking public began to be scared of it?
In actuality, the emptier restaurant would lower its prices,changing the
'identical in all respects' aspect of the problem until people became
indifferent between the two.
Hopefully the lesson here is obvious.
These seem to be difficult times, and perhaps nobody is interested in
doing work more adventurous than writing fancy web servers. I don't
think you should knock Robert so easily. It may indeed be hard to find
a suitable project and get one's skills up to speed at the same time.
Since the dot com bust ,there may indeed be fewer 'nifty cool stuff that
needs lisp' programs being written. Can anybody verify? Unfortunately,
I myself had to make a career change and no longer keep track of the
commercial applications of LISP.
Robocup seems like a neat idea, but perhaps we need to organize other
similar projects for those for whom robotics is just not their 'cup of tea'.
Why does there seem to be less GO programming done in lisp than
yesteryear?
And what happened to the old AI-LISP-JOBS mailing list?
>
> Imagine you're going to a restaurant. (I know, I know, you're poor, you
> can't afford restaurants. Just imagine, OK?) Before you are two
> restaurants that you've never been to, outwardly identical in all
> respects, except that one is empty and the other one has a line of people
> waiting to get in. Which would you choose?
>
> E.
From: Kenny Tilton
Subject: AI Job on Dice [was Re: The LISP economy (was Re: Lisp employment resources..)
Date:
Message-ID: <3F4DD1BE.9010605@nyc.rr.com>
Michael Tuchman wrote:
> These seem to be difficult times, and perhaps nobody is interested in
> doing work more adventurous than writing fancy web servers.
Found this bad boy on Dice. Location preferred is Boston, but see below:
"Candidates should have experience in diagnostic applications and/or
expert systems, especially experience developing systems using a
production-rule, LISP, or PROLOG-type environment. They should ideally
have experience with data or knowledge modeling; knowledge of various
other AI techniques such as planning and uncertainty management would be
a plus. They should have good object-oriented design skills, UNIX
experience, be comfortable developing large systems, be self-directed,
and have a good range of general programming experience. The diagnostic
knowledge is programmed in ART-Enterprise, a rule-based language with a
LISP-like syntax; Java and HTML would be helpful; we also use C, C++,
Tcl, Perl, SQL, XML, and SNMP for supporting code and to communicate
with other systems. Experience with layer 2 or layer 3 services,
routers, VPNs, PVCs, other components of typical user network
configurations, and commercial or freeware tools for network design and
debugging, would be a big plus.
SHORT DESCRIPTION:
1) developers with hands-on expert systems experience preferably in
ART-Enterprise but could be in any knowledge based production-rule based
environment
2) ATM Frame Relay experience
3) developers with Java, XML and other software technologies to develop
user interfaces
4) layer 2 and 3 experience"
>>>>> Below (the upside of working the fringe): <<<<<<<
"Please Note:Ideally consultants will work out of Boston but they will
also entertain candidates that are not local since this is not an easy
fill."
> I don't
> think you should knock Robert so easily. It may indeed be hard to find
> a suitable project and get one's skills up to speed at the same time.
The problem seems to be depression. The tough economy is a given, and
requires an energetic, upbeat attack. Not "whoa is me", and certainly
not advertising on Usenet that one has a defeatist, miserable, Eeyore
outlook on life. And it is not even winter yet.
> Robocup seems like a neat idea, but perhaps we need to organize other
> similar projects for those for whom robotics is just not their 'cup of
> tea'.
RoboCup has a lot of visibility and a big community, so in terms of
networking/job-hunting it would be hard to beat. A new project starts at
size sero with years to go before it builds interest. A new project
would also just be us lispniks, whereas Robocup takes one out into a
larger community of Java/C++ types. And then one stands out: "Hey, this
nut is using Lisp! Let's check it out!!" Only downside is that I get the
feeling it's mostly academia/research--but networking is networking.
Now back to my frikkin sockets... <g>
--
kenny tilton
clinisys, inc
http://www.tilton-technology.com/
---------------------------------------------------------------
"Career highlights? I had two. I got an intentional walk from
Sandy Koufax and I got out of a rundown against the Mets."
-- Bob Uecker
Yeah- I saw this one too. Thanks for the tip. I myself am not looking
for LISP employment at the moment.
I wasn't knocking robocup, though. Ironically, 'advertising on usenet'
which you disparage (with some justification, I might add) is how I
found out about robocup in the first place :-)
And the attitude here is good, compared to some other newsgroups I've
seen :-)
Kenny Tilton wrote:
>
>
> Michael Tuchman wrote:
>
>> These seem to be difficult times, and perhaps nobody is interested in
>> doing work more adventurous than writing fancy web servers.
>
>
> Found this bad boy on Dice. Location preferred is Boston, but see below:
>
> "Candidates should have experience in diagnostic applications and/or
> expert systems, especially experience developing systems using a
> production-rule, LISP, or PROLOG-type environment. They should ideally
> have experience with data or knowledge modeling; knowledge of various
> other AI techniques such as planning and uncertainty management would be
> a plus. They should have good object-oriented design skills, UNIX
> experience, be comfortable developing large systems, be self-directed,
> and have a good range of general programming experience. The diagnostic
> knowledge is programmed in ART-Enterprise, a rule-based language with a
> LISP-like syntax; Java and HTML would be helpful; we also use C, C++,
> Tcl, Perl, SQL, XML, and SNMP for supporting code and to communicate
> with other systems. Experience with layer 2 or layer 3 services,
> routers, VPNs, PVCs, other components of typical user network
> configurations, and commercial or freeware tools for network design and
> debugging, would be a big plus.
>
> SHORT DESCRIPTION:
> 1) developers with hands-on expert systems experience preferably in
> ART-Enterprise but could be in any knowledge based production-rule based
> environment
> 2) ATM Frame Relay experience
> 3) developers with Java, XML and other software technologies to develop
> user interfaces
> 4) layer 2 and 3 experience"
>
> >>>>> Below (the upside of working the fringe): <<<<<<<
>
> "Please Note:Ideally consultants will work out of Boston but they will
> also entertain candidates that are not local since this is not an easy
> fill."
>
>
>> I don't think you should knock Robert so easily. It may indeed be
>> hard to find a suitable project and get one's skills up to speed at
>> the same time.
>
>
> The problem seems to be depression. The tough economy is a given, and
> requires an energetic, upbeat attack. Not "whoa is me", and certainly
> not advertising on Usenet that one has a defeatist, miserable, Eeyore
> outlook on life. And it is not even winter yet.
>
>
>> Robocup seems like a neat idea, but perhaps we need to organize other
>> similar projects for those for whom robotics is just not their 'cup of
>> tea'.
>
>
> RoboCup has a lot of visibility and a big community, so in terms of
> networking/job-hunting it would be hard to beat. A new project starts at
> size sero with years to go before it builds interest. A new project
> would also just be us lispniks, whereas Robocup takes one out into a
> larger community of Java/C++ types. And then one stands out: "Hey, this
> nut is using Lisp! Let's check it out!!" Only downside is that I get the
> feeling it's mostly academia/research--but networking is networking.
>
> Now back to my frikkin sockets... <g>
>
>
>
On Thu, 28 Aug 2003 14:15:25 GMT, Michael Tuchman <···@mindspring.com>
wrote:
I believe he is specifically referring to Robert's attitude. I don't
know how the attitudes are on other Lists, but I personally wouldn't
hire someone with that type of an attitude. To me, attitude is
perhaps the single largest factor in how well someone does on the job.
If someone consistently asks the question, "what can *I* do to make
this situation better" and follows that up with real action, I have
yet to find the situation they cannot master. When you spend all your
time blaming external causes (economy, shrinking lisp programmer job
base etc) for the fact that you don't have *any* job, then I think you
will stay without a job. Now I'm not referring to you, but rather to
people who have a defeatist "it's someone else's fault" attitude
versus an optimistic "I can change my stars" attitude.
Just my opinion
>Yeah- I saw this one too. Thanks for the tip. I myself am not looking
>for LISP employment at the moment.
>
>I wasn't knocking robocup, though. Ironically, 'advertising on usenet'
>which you disparage (with some justification, I might add) is how I
>found out about robocup in the first place :-)
>
>And the attitude here is good, compared to some other newsgroups I've
>seen :-)
>
>Kenny Tilton wrote:
>>
>>
>> Michael Tuchman wrote:
>>
>>> These seem to be difficult times, and perhaps nobody is interested in
>>> doing work more adventurous than writing fancy web servers.
>>
>>
>> Found this bad boy on Dice. Location preferred is Boston, but see below:
>>
>> "Candidates should have experience in diagnostic applications and/or
>> expert systems, especially experience developing systems using a
>> production-rule, LISP, or PROLOG-type environment. They should ideally
>> have experience with data or knowledge modeling; knowledge of various
>> other AI techniques such as planning and uncertainty management would be
>> a plus. They should have good object-oriented design skills, UNIX
>> experience, be comfortable developing large systems, be self-directed,
>> and have a good range of general programming experience. The diagnostic
>> knowledge is programmed in ART-Enterprise, a rule-based language with a
>> LISP-like syntax; Java and HTML would be helpful; we also use C, C++,
>> Tcl, Perl, SQL, XML, and SNMP for supporting code and to communicate
>> with other systems. Experience with layer 2 or layer 3 services,
>> routers, VPNs, PVCs, other components of typical user network
>> configurations, and commercial or freeware tools for network design and
>> debugging, would be a big plus.
>>
>> SHORT DESCRIPTION:
>> 1) developers with hands-on expert systems experience preferably in
>> ART-Enterprise but could be in any knowledge based production-rule based
>> environment
>> 2) ATM Frame Relay experience
>> 3) developers with Java, XML and other software technologies to develop
>> user interfaces
>> 4) layer 2 and 3 experience"
>>
>> >>>>> Below (the upside of working the fringe): <<<<<<<
>>
>> "Please Note:Ideally consultants will work out of Boston but they will
>> also entertain candidates that are not local since this is not an easy
>> fill."
>>
>>
>>> I don't think you should knock Robert so easily. It may indeed be
>>> hard to find a suitable project and get one's skills up to speed at
>>> the same time.
>>
>>
>> The problem seems to be depression. The tough economy is a given, and
>> requires an energetic, upbeat attack. Not "whoa is me", and certainly
>> not advertising on Usenet that one has a defeatist, miserable, Eeyore
>> outlook on life. And it is not even winter yet.
>>
>>
>>> Robocup seems like a neat idea, but perhaps we need to organize other
>>> similar projects for those for whom robotics is just not their 'cup of
>>> tea'.
>>
>>
>> RoboCup has a lot of visibility and a big community, so in terms of
>> networking/job-hunting it would be hard to beat. A new project starts at
>> size sero with years to go before it builds interest. A new project
>> would also just be us lispniks, whereas Robocup takes one out into a
>> larger community of Java/C++ types. And then one stands out: "Hey, this
>> nut is using Lisp! Let's check it out!!" Only downside is that I get the
>> feeling it's mostly academia/research--but networking is networking.
>>
>> Now back to my frikkin sockets... <g>
>>
>>
>>
Doug Tolton
(format t ···@~a~a.~a" "dtolton" "ya" "hoo" "com")
{{Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 13:12:23 -0700
From: ···@jpl.nasa.gov (Erann Gat)
How do you think robotics experts get to be robotics experts?}}
By getting access to robotics equipment including both the physical
components and the computer controllers, with all his time paid so he
will be able to pay the rent and buy food etc. instead of become
homeless, and with some expert(s) to guide him toward developing
robotics software for running the robotics equipment.
{{Has the thought of READING never entered your mind?}}
Do you honestly believe somebody can become an expert at the practice
of making functional robots just by reading what others have done and
never doing anything himself, not once ever having a robot to practice
programming? If so, you're an idiot.
{{Or approaching a robotics expert and asking for their help?}}
If you know any robotics expert willing to pay me full wages for my
time working with them on robotics equipment they provide for me to
use, please refer me. If not, stop harassing me with stupid ideas.
The only robotics expert I ever met in person on friendly terms was my
buddy Hans P. Moravec when he was a student at Stanford. He told me
about his algorithms for vision tracking for guiding a robot with only
monoscopic non-distance-ranging camera, but he never invited me to do
any work with him. Then he moved to CMU and I never heard from him
again, and I never met any other robotics expert after him. Who exactly
am I supposed to approach here and now in California?
{{How much time has to go by before you seriously entertain the
possibility that there might actually be some causal (or acausal as
the case may be) relationship here?}}
I've never met you nor any other members of this newsgroup in person,
nor have any of you been willing to chat with me by e-mail, so I don't
consider that I yet have any individual relationship with any of you
despite being an occasional participant of this newsgroup for a while.
I don't recall anybody ever giving me a compliment for what I posted
here, when I tried to help newbies at LISP, when I tried to answer
questions, when I offered to teach people how to program using LISP for
CGI applications, so I don't consider that I have any valuable
relationship with this newsgroup. All I get here is impartial responses
such as answers to my technical questions, and nasty rebukes, and some
attempts at helpful advice that so-far hasn't been of any value to me
except for clarifying some misunderstandings I had such as Java vs.
Javascript which I mistakenly thought were variations of the same idea
instead of totally unrelated languages.
Regarding tutorials etc.:
{{When you write yours you can call them whatever you want.}}
When I find anyone willing to actually try reading anything like that
which I write, or more likely using any interactive tutorial Web-based
software that I write, then maybe I'll do some more work on what I
already started but nobody would ever look at because I've never found
anyone who actually wants to learn programming from me.
{{You actually improve your chances of getting job offers
dramatically if people think you already have a job.}}
So you're saying I should lie on my resume, claim I have been employed
at various well-known companies (Oracle, Sun, IBM, MicroSoft) for the
past twelve years, and hope the person planning to interview me doesn't
bother to check my references before hiring me?
{{Before you are two restaurants that you've never been to, outwardly
identical in all respects, except that one is empty and the other one
has a line of people waiting to get in. Which would you choose?}}
I hate crowds and lines. I'm physically disabled with flattened spinal
disk and would suffer terrible pain if I had to stand in line for a
long time, and I'd hate to "make a scene" by lying down on the floor
and having the ambulance company come and force me to get out of line
and come with them. (That actually happened to me once in 1996, not at
a restaurant but the same basic idea or me needing to lie down for a
few minutes and the ambulance people abducting me, and when I tried to
file a complaint against them abducting me my complaint was refused. A
year later they tried it again, and I drove away from them, and got
arrested for driving away from them, and put in jail, and held without
being allowed to make any bail for eight days until arraignment, and
then offered either getting out that same day by pleading guilty, or
staying up to 30 additional days in jail awaiting trial and not being
allowed to make bail the whole time.) So I'd choose the empty
restaurant where I wouldn't have to stand in line and I wouldn't have
to suffer being in a horribly upsetting crowd of strangers.
Once long ago I had a date with Debra at Stanford-AI, to meet at a
popular restaurant in downtown Palo Alto on University AV., for lunch,
but when I got there it was so crowded I couldn't even go in the door
to look for her, so I waited outside (she was probably already inside
waiting for me) for a while, and never saw her, and had to give up.
One time I got trapped in traffic going up to Coit Tower in San
Francisco, because I made a wrong turn, and was trapped for an hour and
freaked out and was ready to abandon the car in the middle of the
street to escape the trapped situation.
I have to avoid traveling on freeways during commute hour when there's
a horrible traffic jam, because I feel so trapped and helpless there,
and I freak out and want to ram all the other cars around me.
I really can't stand overcrowded situations with strangers.
I'll choose the empty restaurant.
Which one would you choose? The horrible crowded one?
In article <·················@Yahoo.Com>, ··········@YahooGroups.Com wrote:
> I've never met you nor any other members of this newsgroup in person,
> nor have any of you been willing to chat with me by e-mail
How would you know? I can't speak for anyone else, but I've never gotten
an email from you.
Though I must say you haven't improved your chances of getting a response
from me if you ever did decide to approach me via email by writing:
>... you're an idiot.
and
> ... stop harassing me with stupid ideas.
Very well, I will comply with that request. See, sometimes to get what
you want all you have to do is ask.
Good bye, and good luck.
E.
{{Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 22:27:48 -0700
From: ···@jpl.nasa.gov (Erann Gat)
In article <·················@Yahoo.Com>, ··········@YahooGroups.Com wrote:
> I've never met you nor any other members of this newsgroup in person,
> nor have any of you been willing to chat with me by e-mail
I've never gotten an email from you.}}
You've never invited me to send you e-mail, and I don't like to send
unsolicited e-mail to people who have expressed no interest in talking
individually with me. I've been fighting spam for so many years...
On Sat, 16 Aug 2003 12:24:40 -0700, ··········@YahooGroups.Com wrote:
>{{Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 09:51:47 +0100
> From: Mark Dalgarno <·············@scientia.com>
> Try my alternate email address ····@scientia.com}}
>
>Thanks, I found your job ads, most recently in late 2000, before that
>in early 2000 and mid-1999, all in England. I presume none of these are
>still open, and even if they were I doubt they'd allow me to
>telecommute from California. But if I'm mistaken please let me know and
>maybe I'll apply.
Sorry, all positions are filled at the present time. We didn't
advertise the last one (January 2003) on c.l.l I'm afraid as someone
who used to work for the company approached us to see if he could
return.
In any case all Lisp positions are based in Cambridge, UK at the
present time although that could change in the future as we do have
some non-Lisp people developing for us in Toronto (but not in the US
yet).
Mark
Is it just me or is this a bug in Google groups
where of the 11 (at this time) messages in this
thread, only messages 6-10 have a
"Post a follow-up to this message" link at
their respective bottoms? Aren't all messages
supposed to have such a link?
Anyway, I wanted to but couldn't reply to the
top-level message, as follows:
> I will consider relocation globally.
> http://resumes.dice.com/cobybeck
That link seems to produce a blank page.
What salary are "experienced Lisp people"
generally looking for, and how low are they
generally willing to accept (especially if
it involved relocating to a Third World
where the standard of living and living costs
are significantly less than in First World)?
"c hore" <·······@yahoo.com> wrote in message
································@posting.google.com...
> Is it just me or is this a bug in Google groups
> where of the 11 (at this time) messages in this
> thread, only messages 6-10 have a
> "Post a follow-up to this message" link at
> their respective bottoms? Aren't all messages
> supposed to have such a link?
I don't know what the timeframe is, but you generally can't reply to very
old posts.
> Anyway, I wanted to but couldn't reply to the
> top-level message, as follows:
>
> > I will consider relocation globally.
> > http://resumes.dice.com/cobybeck
>
> That link seems to produce a blank page.
That is a very old message of mine! As well as a blank page, it produces
disturbing memories of the stress that goes along with being out of work...
> What salary are "experienced Lisp people"
> generally looking for, and how low are they
> generally willing to accept (especially if
> it involved relocating to a Third World
> where the standard of living and living costs
> are significantly less than in First World)?
I usually use currency, salary and cost of living converters to arrive at
what seems to be a fair expectation. I doubt any third world country would
be able to compete with a N.Am. salary even after cost of living
adjustments, but I would assume if you were considering it, the adventure
would be a factor as well! It is always a whole package assessment, US
dollar value, local currency, local standard of living, personal lifestyle
choices, local culture.
--
Coby Beck
(remove #\Space "coby 101 @ big pond . com")
"Must be a Lisp guru with tremendous coding experience (cite specific
projects completed)
Must be able to understand and substantially improve algorithmically
complex Lisp code"
http://www.itasoftware.com/careers/job2.php