Just started looking at c.l.lisp so my apologies if this is the 536th
time this question has been asked.
Seems like there are a lot of Scandinavian folks in this community.
Any particular reason why Lisp is so popular in that region?
···················@hotmail.com" wrote:
>
> Just started looking at c.l.lisp so my apologies if this is the 536th
> time this question has been asked.
>
> Seems like there are a lot of Scandinavian folks in this community.
> Any particular reason why Lisp is so popular in that region?
Let's see:
Martin Thornquist
Alexander Kjeldaas
Frode Vatvedt Fjeld
Erik Naggum
Raymond Wiker
Harald Hanche Olsen
And I remember also Erik Haugan, who hasn't posted recently.
This doesn't count Swedes or Finns.
A long, long time ago (about 20 years) I expressed an interest
in Lisp to someone, who asked me, "It's a Norwegian language, isn't
it?"
"Actually, it's American", I replied.
But I thought he thought it was Norwegian because of a news item
that Norsk Data had released a version of Lisp on one of their
machines, and he'd noticed this and assumed that they invented
it, and left it at that.
I too have been baffled by this, but too reticent to mention.
Perhaps Norwegians have taste, or the result of Norsk Data's
influence (legacy systems?) or it could just be a random cluster
-- I too would like to know the answer.
Le Hibou
--
Dalinian: Lisp. Java. Which one sounds sexier?
RevAaron: Definitely Lisp. Lisp conjures up images of hippy coders,
drugs, sex, and rock & roll. Late nights at Berkeley, coding in
Lisp fueled by LSD. Java evokes a vision of a stereotypical nerd,
with no life or social skills.
Donald Fisk <················@enterprise.net> writes:
> ···················@hotmail.com" wrote:
> >
> > Just started looking at c.l.lisp so my apologies if this is the 536th
> > time this question has been asked.
> >
> > Seems like there are a lot of Scandinavian folks in this community.
> > Any particular reason why Lisp is so popular in that region?
>
> Let's see:
>
> Martin Thornquist
> Alexander Kjeldaas
> Frode Vatvedt Fjeld
> Erik Naggum
> Raymond Wiker
> Harald Hanche Olsen
6 out 4.5 million, that's probably the largest number of cll posters
per capita in the world :-)
> I too have been baffled by this, but too reticent to mention.
> Perhaps Norwegians have taste, or the result of Norsk Data's
> influence (legacy systems?) or it could just be a random cluster
> -- I too would like to know the answer.
I work in a spin-off of Norsk Data (all hardware development of ND was
branched off in a new company in the late 80's), but I haven't met any
Lisp bigots yet. Planc was a language which was popular at ND.
Petter
--
________________________________________________________________________
Petter Gustad 8'h2B | ~8'h2B http://www.gustad.com/petter
+ Donald Fisk <················@enterprise.net>:
| Perhaps Norwegians have taste,
Definitely. Though there are exceptions. If someone tries to feed
you lutefisk, run for your life. I have never understood why most
Norwegians love this vile stuff. Even my wife, though she's American.
| or the result of Norsk Data's influence
Nah. I've done my share of work on those systems, but never saw a
Lisp until much later (though I had /heard/ of it much earlier).
Petter Gustad mentioned Planc, which was the system programming
language on these machines. Myself, I wrote in FORTRAN (because I had
to, not my choice) and as soon as I got out of that job and into
academia, vowed never to write a line of FORTRAN again. (I suppose
someone will tell me that FORTRAN, like Lisp, should no longer be
written in all capitals, but I /refuse/ to listen.)
- Harald
Harald Hanche-Olsen <······@math.ntnu.no> writes:
> Myself, I wrote in FORTRAN (because I had to, not my choice) and as
> soon as I got out of that job and into academia, vowed never to
> write a line of FORTRAN again. (I suppose someone will tell me that
> FORTRAN, like Lisp, should no longer be written in all capitals, but
> I /refuse/ to listen.)
It depends on what dialect you're talking about ... I'm sure no one
would raise an objection to someone talking about MACLISP or
INTERLISP, just like I doubt any one would raise an objection to you
obviously referring to FORTRAN 77 or maybe FORTRAN IV. Fortran 90
(note the capitalization) is a fairly different language now, far more
Algol-like. So it's kind of nice for Fortran people now, you can
bitch about FORTRAN all you want, and you're putting a rough timestamp
on your experiences. (Although I'm not anything like an advocate of
Fortran. In fact, I prefer FORTRAN, which at least has a perverse
sort of charm to it, unlike its Algolated bastard offspring).
--
/|_ .-----------------------.
,' .\ / | No to Imperialist war |
,--' _,' | Wage class war! |
/ / `-----------------------'
( -. |
| ) |
(`-. '--.)
`. )----'
Harald Hanche-Olsen wrote:
> + Donald Fisk <················@enterprise.net>:
>
> | Perhaps Norwegians have taste,
>
> Definitely. Though there are exceptions. If someone tries to feed
> you lutefisk, run for your life. I have never understood why most
> Norwegians love this vile stuff. Even my wife, though she's American.
Lutefisk is not that bad! (Mainly due to the fact that there is
almost no taste). We could a nice little flamewar over this.
How someone came up with the idea of lutefisk is the first place
is beyond me though. (It is fish in acid more or less :p )
> (I suppose
> someone will tell me that FORTRAN, like Lisp, should no longer be
> written in all capitals, but I /refuse/ to listen.)
Fortran, like Lisp, should no longer be written in all capitals.
--
Thomas.
"Thomas Stegen" <·······@cis.strath.ac.uk> wrote in message
···············@nntphost.cis.strath.ac.uk...
> Harald Hanche-Olsen wrote:
> > + Donald Fisk <················@enterprise.net>:
> >
> > | Perhaps Norwegians have taste,
> >
> > Definitely. Though there are exceptions. If someone tries to feed
> > you lutefisk, run for your life. I have never understood why most
> > Norwegians love this vile stuff. Even my wife, though she's American.
>
> Lutefisk is not that bad! (Mainly due to the fact that there is
> almost no taste). We could a nice little flamewar over this.
>
(defun lutefisk-good-p nil)
lutefisk-good-p
;;;; Let's try this out in ACL 5.0
> (lutefisk-good-p)
nil
> (not (lutefisk-good-p))
t
;;;; Yep, works correctly !!!!!
This is a wonderful example of how fast you can develop efficient, accurate
code in CL.
Alan
+ Thomas Stegen <·······@cis.strath.ac.uk>:
| Lutefisk is not that bad! (Mainly due to the fact that there is
| almost no taste).
But the stink, man! The stink!
| We could a nice little flamewar over this.
Nah, I don't have the energy for that.
| How someone came up with the idea of lutefisk is the first place
| is beyond me though. (It is fish in acid more or less :p )
More less than more, methinks. You have the wrong end of the pH scale.
--
* Harald Hanche-Olsen <URL:http://www.math.ntnu.no/~hanche/>
- Yes it works in practice - but does it work in theory?
From: Björn Lindberg
Subject: Re: Did McCarthy change his name and move to Oslo?
Date:
Message-ID: <3E064138.4D7C84C4@nada.kth.se>
Thomas Stegen wrote:
> Lutefisk is not that bad! (Mainly due to the fact that there is
> almost no taste). We could a nice little flamewar over this.
If the Norwegian lutefisk is the same thing as Swedish lutfisk, it is
really good!
> How someone came up with the idea of lutefisk is the first place
> is beyond me though. (It is fish in acid more or less :p )
It was a method for preservation, before there were freezers. The fish
is dried and stored. When it is time for consumption, it is soaked in
some kind of high-pH solution, then cooked.
Bj�rn
From: Johan Kullstam
Subject: Re: Did McCarthy change his name and move to Oslo?
Date:
Message-ID: <878yyfh51d.fsf@attbi.com>
Bj�rn Lindberg <·······@nada.kth.se> writes:
> Thomas Stegen wrote:
>
> > Lutefisk is not that bad! (Mainly due to the fact that there is
> > almost no taste). We could a nice little flamewar over this.
>
> If the Norwegian lutefisk is the same thing as Swedish lutfisk, it is
> really good!
>
> > How someone came up with the idea of lutefisk is the first place
> > is beyond me though. (It is fish in acid more or less :p )
>
> It was a method for preservation, before there were freezers. The fish
> is dried and stored. When it is time for consumption, it is soaked in
> some kind of high-pH solution, then cooked.
Yes, but along with barkbread and other non-nutritious foodsubstitutes
invented during starvation periods, lutfisk deserves to die.
--
Johan KULLSTAM
From: Erik Naggum
Subject: Re: Did McCarthy change his name and move to Oslo?
Date:
Message-ID: <3249762895525109@naggum.no>
* Johan Kullstam
| Yes, but along with barkbread and other non-nutritious food substi-
| tutes invented during starvation periods, lutfisk deserves to die.
I honestly believe lutefisk is the absolute deadest a fish can get.
If I did not know better, I could have assumed that "lute-" is the
Nordic equivalent of the Latin and English prefix "ex-".
--
Erik Naggum, Oslo, Norway
Act from reason, and failure makes you rethink and study harder.
Act from faith, and failure makes you blame someone and push harder.
Harald Hanche-Olsen <······@math.ntnu.no> writes:
> | or the result of Norsk Data's influence
>
> Nah. I've done my share of work on those systems, but never saw a
> Lisp until much later (though I had /heard/ of it much earlier).
But they actually released a Lisp machine! But from what I've heard
it was just a Nord 500 with a sticker on it ;-) (and far less useful
than the German lisp machine from Siemens, which was an Xerox 1109
with a sticker on it!).
--
(espen)
Harald Hanche-Olsen <······@math.ntnu.no> wrote in message news:<···············@thoth.math.ntnu.no>...
> + Donald Fisk <················@enterprise.net>:
>
> | Perhaps Norwegians have taste,
>
> Definitely. Though there are exceptions. If someone tries to feed
> you lutefisk, run for your life.
Whenever someone mentions lutefisk, I think of the classical guitar
player Eliott Fisk, because that's the word that popped into my head
when I first became aware of this artist. ;)
Kaz Kylheku wrote:
>
> Harald Hanche-Olsen <······@math.ntnu.no> wrote in message news:<···············@thoth.math.ntnu.no>...
> > + Donald Fisk <················@enterprise.net>:
> >
> > | Perhaps Norwegians have taste,
> >
> > Definitely. Though there are exceptions. If someone tries to feed
> > you lutefisk, run for your life.
>
> Whenever someone mentions lutefisk, I think of the classical guitar
> player Eliott Fisk, because that's the word that popped into my head
> when I first became aware of this artist. ;)
Does he play the lute as well as the guitar?
Le Hibou
--
Dalinian: Lisp. Java. Which one sounds sexier?
RevAaron: Definitely Lisp. Lisp conjures up images of hippy coders,
drugs, sex, and rock & roll. Late nights at Berkeley, coding in
Lisp fueled by LSD. Java evokes a vision of a stereotypical nerd,
with no life or social skills.
In article <···············@thoth.math.ntnu.no>,
Harald Hanche-Olsen <······@math.ntnu.no> wrote:
> + Donald Fisk <················@enterprise.net>:
>
> | Perhaps Norwegians have taste,
>
> Definitely. Though there are exceptions. If someone tries to feed
> you lutefisk, run for your life. I have never understood why most
> Norwegians love this vile stuff. Even my wife, though she's American.
I think "most Norwegians" is a great exaggeration in the case of lutefisk,
but for my case it certainly is correct :)
Back to lurking...
Lars J
--
This is your life and it's ending one minute at a time.
From: Christian Lynbech
Subject: Re: Did McCarthy change his name and move to Oslo?
Date:
Message-ID: <87vg1korcl.fsf@baguette.defun.dk>
>>>>> "Donald" == Donald Fisk <················@enterprise.net> writes:
Donald> ···················@hotmail.com" wrote:
>>
>> Just started looking at c.l.lisp so my apologies if this is the 536th
>> time this question has been asked.
>>
>> Seems like there are a lot of Scandinavian folks in this community.
>> Any particular reason why Lisp is so popular in that region?
Donald> Let's see:
Donald> Martin Thornquist
Donald> Alexander Kjeldaas
Donald> Frode Vatvedt Fjeld
Donald> Erik Naggum
Donald> Raymond Wiker
Donald> Harald Hanche Olsen
and Espen Vestre.
Donald> And I remember also Erik Haugan, who hasn't posted recently.
Donald> This doesn't count Swedes or Finns.
What happened to Denmark? We are part of Scandinavia too.
Donald> I too have been baffled by this, but too reticent to mention.
Donald> Perhaps Norwegians have taste, or the result of Norsk Data's
Donald> influence (legacy systems?) or it could just be a random cluster
Donald> -- I too would like to know the answer.
It could be that being small countries, more cleverness is required to
succeed which would make scandinavians more sensitive to something as
powerfull as Lisp :-)
------------------------+-----------------------------------------------------
Christian Lynbech |
------------------------+-----------------------------------------------------
Hit the philistines three times over the head with the Elisp reference manual.
- ·······@hal.com (Michael A. Petonic)
Christian Lynbech <·······@get2net.dk> writes:
> >>>>> "Donald" == Donald Fisk <················@enterprise.net> writes:
>
> Donald> ···················@hotmail.com" wrote:
> >>
> >> Just started looking at c.l.lisp so my apologies if this is the 536th
> >> time this question has been asked.
> >>
> >> Seems like there are a lot of Scandinavian folks in this community.
> >> Any particular reason why Lisp is so popular in that region?
>
> Donald> Let's see:
>
> Donald> Martin Thornquist
> Donald> Alexander Kjeldaas
> Donald> Frode Vatvedt Fjeld
> Donald> Erik Naggum
> Donald> Raymond Wiker
> Donald> Harald Hanche Olsen
>
> and Espen Vestre.
>
> Donald> And I remember also Erik Haugan, who hasn't posted recently.
> Donald> This doesn't count Swedes or Finns.
>
> What happened to Denmark? We are part of Scandinavia too.
I could be nit-picky and claim that you are part of the "Nordic
countries", but that only Sweden and Norway are Scandinavia per se
(having the Scandic mountain range within their borders).
But, seeing as how the English word "Scandinavia" seems to be (mostly)
used to mean "Norden", I shall only take this opportunity to muse on
how different p[rint-names can be from actual symbol names, as it were.
//Ingvar
--
When C++ is your hammer, everything looks like a thumb
Latest seen from Steven M. Haflich, in c.l.l
[ Donald Fisk ]
> Martin Thornquist
> Alexander Kjeldaas
> Frode Vatvedt Fjeld
> Erik Naggum
> Raymond Wiker
> Harald Hanche Olsen
Espen Vestre
Lars Ingebrigtsen
Petter Gustad
Rolf Marvin B�e Lindgren
Thomas Stegen? (Posts from UK, but I have some recollection that he's
Norwegian)
> I too have been baffled by this, but too reticent to mention.
> Perhaps Norwegians have taste, or the result of Norsk Data's
> influence (legacy systems?) or it could just be a random cluster
> -- I too would like to know the answer.
I'm too young to have worked with Norsk Data machines, I didn't even
know they had a Lisp.
Lisp is generally viewed positively among my (computer science
student) friends at the University of Oslo, although the curriculum at
the Dept. of Informatics doesn't teach any Lisp apart for a non-credit
afternoon lecture series held by an enthusiast (Asle Olufsen). It's
something of an Emacs bastion, though, so many students there get some
Lisp exposure from hacking their .emacs.
As for myself, it's a combination of interest and luck that led me to
learn and work with Lisp.
Erik Naggum might have something to do with the (apparent) popularity
of Lisp in Norway, he's had a rather high profile in the Norwegian
news hierarchy for many years. He's certainly one of the reasons I
became interested in Lisp -- I've long recognized Erik as a very good
programmer, hence I give what he says about both computer languages
and other programming matters quite some weight.
Martin
--
"An ideal world is left as an exercise to the reader."
-Paul Graham, On Lisp
From: Tord Kallqvist Romstad
Subject: Re: Did McCarthy change his name and move to Oslo?
Date:
Message-ID: <gqkk7i0n5fh.fsf@europa.uio.no>
Martin Thornquist <············@ifi.uio.no> writes:
> [ Donald Fisk ]
>
> > Martin Thornquist
> > Alexander Kjeldaas
> > Frode Vatvedt Fjeld
> > Erik Naggum
> > Raymond Wiker
> > Harald Hanche Olsen
>
> Espen Vestre
> Lars Ingebrigtsen
> Petter Gustad
> Rolf Marvin B�e Lindgren
> Thomas Stegen? (Posts from UK, but I have some recollection that he's
> Norwegian)
Asle Olufsen
Stig Hemmer
Christian Nyb�
Vebj�rn Ljosa
My name could also be added to the list, but I don't read this
newsgroup very often, and post even more rarely.
> I'm too young to have worked with Norsk Data machines, I didn't even
> know they had a Lisp.
Neither did I.
> Lisp is generally viewed positively among my (computer science
> student) friends at the University of Oslo, although the curriculum at
> the Dept. of Informatics doesn't teach any Lisp apart for a non-credit
> afternoon lecture series held by an enthusiast (Asle Olufsen). It's
> something of an Emacs bastion, though, so many students there get some
> Lisp exposure from hacking their .emacs.
There are still some Lisp courses at the department of cognitive
science, I think.
> As for myself, it's a combination of interest and luck that led me to
> learn and work with Lisp.
For me, it was a combination of .emacs hacking and a recommendation
from a fellow math student (Ivar Rummelhoff, who has not been posting
here the last two years).
It also appears to me that the commercial use of Lisp is somewhat more
widespread in Norway than in most other countries, but I could be
wrong.
--
Tord Romstad
Martin Thornquist wrote:
> Thomas Stegen? (Posts from UK, but I have some recollection that he's
> Norwegian)
>
I am Norwegian, but I study in Scotland so your recollection is quite
correct :)
--
Thomas.
From: Rolf Marvin B�e Lindgren
Subject: Re: Did McCarthy change his name and move to Oslo?
Date:
Message-ID: <lbzd6nugv4t.fsf@aqualene.uio.no>
[··················@hotmail.com]
| Seems like there are a lot of Scandinavian folks in this community.
| Any particular reason why Lisp is so popular in that region?
we're small, usually (but not always!) quite insignificant and used to
being treated parenthetically.
seriously though, I don't know. I certainly cannot speak for anybody
else. as a citizen of a small country and being used to having to go
outside my boundaries for goods and information, maybe my threshold for
experimentation and novelty has been conditioned appropriately.
--
Rolf Lindgren http://www.roffe.com/
·····@tag.uio.no
···········@hotmail.com (··················@hotmail.com) writes:
> Seems like there are a lot of Scandinavian folks in this community.
> Any particular reason why Lisp is so popular in that region?
I don't think lisp has (or ever had) a very strong position in Norway:
it was almost unheard of at the large CS department in Oslo when I was
a student, but we were a small group of math students that were
happily playing along with Xeroxen and (later) macintosh common lisp.
Maybe we tend to hang out here on c.l.l. simply because there are so
few of us IRL? (norwegians tend to live hundreds of kilometers apart
anyway, so imagine actually finding a lisp programmer in your
neighborhood....)
Nowadays I actually earn my living from a small norwegian company
which employs several lisp programmers, but that's _not_ common up
here.
(so I don't need c.l.l anymore to meet lisp programmers, but if you
wear asbestos clothing and use a threaded newsreader, it's still a
pretty good n.g.)
merry christmas!
--
(espen)
[··················@hotmail.com]
:
: Seems like there are a lot of Scandinavian folks in this community.
: Any particular reason why Lisp is so popular in that region?
There has been some Lisp advocacy on Norwegian programming newsgroups.
This was part of the reason why I started looking at Common Lisp, and it
probably had some sort of impact on Lisp popularity among Norwegian
newsers. Don't take this as a sign that Lisp is popular in Norway; it's
not. We live in the same Java/C++/Perl/Microsoft world as everyone else
(almost).
--
Knut Arild Erstad
Don't try to solve serious matters in the middle of the night.
-- Philip K. Dick
··················@hotmail.com wrote:
> Just started looking at c.l.lisp so my apologies if this is the 536th
> time this question has been asked.
>
> Seems like there are a lot of Scandinavian folks in this community.
> Any particular reason why Lisp is so popular in that region?
He might have also moved to Berlin. Wherever he moved, it wasn't Rome or
Paris! I haven't noticed a single person posting to CLL from France or
Italy! (Even if Pascal Costansa is Italian, he doesn't count, since his
language taste has been affected by living in *.de)
Oleg
Oleg wrote:
> ··················@hotmail.com wrote:
>
>
>>Just started looking at c.l.lisp so my apologies if this is the 536th
>>time this question has been asked.
>>
>>Seems like there are a lot of Scandinavian folks in this community.
>>Any particular reason why Lisp is so popular in that region?
>
>
> He might have also moved to Berlin. Wherever he moved, it wasn't Rome or
> Paris! I haven't noticed a single person posting to CLL from France or
> Italy! (Even if Pascal Costansa is Italian, he doesn't count, since his
> language taste has been affected by living in *.de)
Well, I am German but I just happen to have an Italian surname.
Pascal
--
Pascal Costanza University of Bonn
···············@web.de Institute of Computer Science III
http://www.pascalcostanza.de R�merstr. 164, D-53117 Bonn (Germany)
Pascal Costanza wrote:
> Well, I am German but I just happen to have an Italian surname.
There's a small but finite possibility that my surname is of
Norwegian, or at least Norse origin -- its usual derivation
from Old English "fisc" is in some doubt. Maybe that's why
I like Lisp.
> Pascal
Le Hibou
--
Dalinian: Lisp. Java. Which one sounds sexier?
RevAaron: Definitely Lisp. Lisp conjures up images of hippy coders,
drugs, sex, and rock & roll. Late nights at Berkeley, coding in
Lisp fueled by LSD. Java evokes a vision of a stereotypical nerd,
with no life or social skills.
Oleg <············@myrealbox.com> writes:
> I haven't noticed a single person posting to CLL from France or
> Italy!
You have not been looking very closely. Also, not all people posting
from a country have email addresses with the code for that country as
a suffix. Some use ".com", ".org", or ".net" addresses. Or, did you
verify poster origin in some more sophisticated way?
--
Robert Strandh
On Thu, 02 Jan 2003 08:33:10 -0500, Oleg <············@myrealbox.com>
wrote:
> He might have also moved to Berlin. Wherever he moved, it wasn't Rome or
> Paris! I haven't noticed a single person posting to CLL from France or
> Italy! (Even if Pascal Costansa is Italian, he doesn't count, since his
I have been accessing comp.lang.lisp from Milano, Italy, since the early
nineties. See the "From:" and "Organization:" fields of my articles.
Paolo
--
EncyCMUCLopedia * Extensive collection of CMU Common Lisp documentation
http://www.paoloamoroso.it/ency/README