I'm getting started learning lisp and have set myself up with Emacs, clisp
and ilisp using the instructions from the Common Lisp Cookbook
(http://cl-cookbook.sourceforge.net/windows.html). I've rummaged around a
bit in the faqs and the online tutorials but so far have not located
something that describes a typical programming session at the console.
I don't think what I'm grasping for is that difficult. I suppose I want to
enter a bunch of forms into a scratch text file and evaluate bits of it as I
go along. I guess I'm looking for the Lisp equivalent to the edit, compile,
link, run, debug cycle of a Java or C programmer, particularly from in an
Emacs environment.
Thanks in advance for any help.
John
From: Kenny Tilton
Subject: Re: Getting started: what is a typical programming session?
Date:
Message-ID: <3DFB8FE4.4040006@nyc.rr.com>
I'll tell you, this was the first thing I ran into moving from
CodeWarrior/Symantec project-based IDEs to Lisp, in my case originally
MCL. ACL from Franz /does/ offer project-oriented ide in which a single
keychord saves, compiles, and runs (no link necessary, and no debug mode
or window necessary).
I have yet to become a True Lisper and learn Emacs, but I wager that
what you do is:
1. use defsystem once you have more than one source file.
2. bind a snippet of "run project" code to some key chord. the snippet
would first do defsystem stuff to pick up any changed files, then
actually invoke the function you are developing/testing. how to get open
/changed files saved first I do not know, hopefully others will jump in
soon who actually know what they are talking about.
:)
--
kenny tilton
clinisys, inc
http://www.tilton-technology.com/
---------------------------------------------------------------
"Cells let us walk, talk, think, make love and realize
the bath water is cold." -- Lorraine Lee Cudmore
I am not sure if this suits your needs, but perhaps
http://www.markwatson.com/opencontent/lisp_lic.htm is worthwhile.
John Poplett wrote:
> I'm getting started learning lisp and have set myself up with Emacs, clisp
> and ilisp using the instructions from the Common Lisp Cookbook
> (http://cl-cookbook.sourceforge.net/windows.html). I've rummaged around a
> bit in the faqs and the online tutorials but so far have not located
> something that describes a typical programming session at the console.
>
> I don't think what I'm grasping for is that difficult. I suppose I want to
> enter a bunch of forms into a scratch text file and evaluate bits of it as I
> go along. I guess I'm looking for the Lisp equivalent to the edit, compile,
> link, run, debug cycle of a Java or C programmer, particularly from in an
> Emacs environment.
>
> Thanks in advance for any help.
>
> John
>
>
--
Given any rule, however �fundamental� or �necessary� for science, there
are always circumstances when it is advisable not only to ignore the
rule, but to adopt its opposite. - Paul Feyerabend
From: Martin Thornquist
Subject: Re: Getting started: what is a typical programming session?
Date:
Message-ID: <lcwumaw46z.fsf@teleute.netfonds.no>
[ John Poplett ]
> I don't think what I'm grasping for is that difficult. I suppose I want to
> enter a bunch of forms into a scratch text file and evaluate bits of it as I
> go along. I guess I'm looking for the Lisp equivalent to the edit, compile,
> link, run, debug cycle of a Java or C programmer, particularly from in an
> Emacs environment.
1) Discover you need some function.
2) Write the function in an editing buffer.
3) eval-defun-lisp (in my Emacs I have this bound to M-C-x).
4) Test the function in the listener.
5) If the function didn't work as expected, go back to the editing
buffer and change it, then reevaluate.
6) When the function works as expected, reiterate with the next
function you need.
Furthermore I often use the listener to test smaller expressions --
loops, maps, hairy format directives -- to see if they do what I think
they should. Once my expectations and what the expression actually do
match, I go back to the editing buffer and use the expression in
whatever code I'm writing.
There's also functions to evaluate regions and the whole buffer. And
eval-defun-lisp is somewhat misleadingly named -- AFAIK it evaluates
any top-level expression.
As you see, you get a far more dynamic work cycle compared to
development with languages lacking a listener. I think this helps me
make far less "simple" mistakes (which can nevertheless be hard to
find later).
Martin
--
"An ideal world is left as an exercise to the reader."
-Paul Graham, On Lisp
Martin Thornquist wrote:
> I think this helps me make far less "simple" mistakes (which
^^^^
"This expression has type float but is here used with type int" ;)
> can nevertheless be hard to find later).
Oleg
On Thu, Dec 19, 2002 at 06:51:55AM -0500, Oleg wrote:
> Martin Thornquist wrote:
> > I think this helps me make far less "simple" mistakes (which
> ^^^^
> "This expression has type float but is here used with type int" ;)
Fortunately, people are smarter than type-checkers.
I am curious how `less' has been deduced to have type `float' in this
message, and why `int' was expected? :-P
--
; Matthew Danish <·······@andrew.cmu.edu>
; OpenPGP public key: C24B6010 on keyring.debian.org
; Signed or encrypted mail welcome.
; "There is no dark side of the moon really; matter of fact, it's all dark."
From: Kenny Tilton
Subject: Re: Getting started: what is a typical programming session?
Date:
Message-ID: <3E022953.8030901@nyc.rr.com>
Matthew Danish wrote:
> On Thu, Dec 19, 2002 at 06:51:55AM -0500, Oleg wrote:
>
>>Martin Thornquist wrote:
>>
>>>I think this helps me make far less "simple" mistakes (which
>>
>> ^^^^
>>"This expression has type float but is here used with type int" ;)
>
>
> Fortunately, people are smarter than type-checkers.
>
> I am curious how `less' has been deduced to have type `float' in this
> message, and why `int' was expected? :-P
>
would "fewer" be restricted to things counted, ie measured only in
integral amounts?
--
kenny tilton
clinisys, inc
http://www.tilton-technology.com/
---------------------------------------------------------------
"Cells let us walk, talk, think, make love and realize
the bath water is cold." -- Lorraine Lee Cudmore
From: Duane Rettig
Subject: Re: Getting started: what is a typical programming session?
Date:
Message-ID: <44r994vfu.fsf@beta.franz.com>
Matthew Danish <·······@andrew.cmu.edu> writes:
> On Thu, Dec 19, 2002 at 06:51:55AM -0500, Oleg wrote:
> > Martin Thornquist wrote:
> > > I think this helps me make far less "simple" mistakes (which
> > ^^^^
> > "This expression has type float but is here used with type int" ;)
>
> Fortunately, people are smarter than type-checkers.
Not always.
> I am curious how `less' has been deduced to have type `float' in this
> message, and why `int' was expected? :-P
I think he was (incorrectly) viewing the word "less" in its analog
sense, where it means not as much of an analog amount of something,
where he might have preferred "fewer" instead. Of course, my
dictionary gives a second meaning to "less" which in fact does
indeed mean "fewer".
--
Duane Rettig ·····@franz.com Franz Inc. http://www.franz.com/
555 12th St., Suite 1450 http://www.555citycenter.com/
Oakland, Ca. 94607 Phone: (510) 452-2000; Fax: (510) 452-0182
Duane Rettig wrote:
> Matthew Danish <·······@andrew.cmu.edu> writes:
>
>> On Thu, Dec 19, 2002 at 06:51:55AM -0500, Oleg wrote:
>> > Martin Thornquist wrote:
>> > > I think this helps me make far less "simple" mistakes (which
>> > ^^^^
>> > "This expression has type float but is here used with type int" ;)
>>
>> Fortunately, people are smarter than type-checkers.
>
> Not always.
>
>> I am curious how `less' has been deduced to have type `float' in this
>> message, and why `int' was expected? :-P
>
> I think he was (incorrectly) viewing the word "less" in its analog
> sense, where it means not as much of an analog amount of something,
> where he might have preferred "fewer" instead. Of course, my
> dictionary gives a second meaning to "less" which in fact does
> indeed mean "fewer".
http://www.askoxford.com/betterwriting/classicerrors/grammartips/lessorfewer
Oleg
From: Kenny Tilton
Subject: Re: Getting started: what is a typical programming session?
Date:
Message-ID: <3E02392D.4070508@nyc.rr.com>
Duane Rettig wrote:
> Matthew Danish <·······@andrew.cmu.edu> writes:
>
>
>>On Thu, Dec 19, 2002 at 06:51:55AM -0500, Oleg wrote:
>>
>>>Martin Thornquist wrote:
>>>
>>>>I think this helps me make far less "simple" mistakes (which
>>>
>>> ^^^^
>>>"This expression has type float but is here used with type int" ;)
>>
...
>>I am curious how `less' has been deduced to have type `float' in this
>>message, and why `int' was expected? :-P
>
>
> I think he was (incorrectly) viewing the word "less" in its analog
> sense, where it means not as much of an analog amount of something,
> where he might have preferred "fewer" instead. Of course, my
> dictionary gives a second meaning to "less" which in fact does
> indeed mean "fewer".
Mine lists "fewer" third, and flags it as disputed.
--
kenny tilton
clinisys, inc
http://www.tilton-technology.com/
---------------------------------------------------------------
"Cells let us walk, talk, think, make love and realize
the bath water is cold." -- Lorraine Lee Cudmore
From: Martin Thornquist
Subject: Re: Getting started: what is a typical programming session?
Date:
Message-ID: <lcsmwthw8d.fsf@teleute.netfonds.no>
[ Duane Rettig ]
>> On Thu, Dec 19, 2002 at 06:51:55AM -0500, Oleg wrote:
>> > Martin Thornquist wrote:
>> > > I think this helps me make far less "simple" mistakes (which
> I think he was (incorrectly) viewing the word "less" in its analog
> sense, where it means not as much of an analog amount of something,
> where he might have preferred "fewer" instead. Of course, my
> dictionary gives a second meaning to "less" which in fact does
> indeed mean "fewer".
In hindsight I do see "fewer" would be clearer and (possibly) more
correct. Oh well, time for invoking Excuse #13, Not A Native English
Speaker. :-)
Martin
--
"An ideal world is left as an exercise to the reader."
-Paul Graham, On Lisp
Martin Thornquist wrote:
> [ Duane Rettig ]
>
>>> On Thu, Dec 19, 2002 at 06:51:55AM -0500, Oleg wrote:
>>> > Martin Thornquist wrote:
>>> > > I think this helps me make far less "simple" mistakes (which
>
>> I think he was (incorrectly) viewing the word "less" in its analog
>> sense, where it means not as much of an analog amount of something,
>> where he might have preferred "fewer" instead. Of course, my
>> dictionary gives a second meaning to "less" which in fact does
>> indeed mean "fewer".
>
> In hindsight I do see "fewer" would be clearer and (possibly) more
> correct. Oh well, time for invoking Excuse #13, Not A Native English
> Speaker. :-)
>
Neither am I! In fact, if this sub-thread shows anything, it's that failing
to grasp the difference "between water and cups" appears to be a trait of
some seemingly educated Americans [1].
Anyway, I wasn't criticizing you or your English. I hoped this was clear. If
you didn't get all (three ?) levels of the joke, you may need to put the
whole quote (probably by Dr. X. Leroy) into a search engine and remember
the context.
Cheers
Oleg
[1] The real illiterate is the one who claims he's not.
From: Larry Clapp
Subject: Re: Getting started: what is a typical programming session?
Date:
Message-ID: <vj8vta.1td.ln@127.0.0.1>
In article <············@newsmaster.cc.columbia.edu>, Oleg wrote:
> [1] The real illiterate is the one who claims he's not.
Hay! Aye can reed! Why wood yew call me illiterate?
-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
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From: Tim Bradshaw
Subject: Re: Getting started: what is a typical programming session?
Date:
Message-ID: <ey3y96kev7q.fsf@cley.com>
* oleg inconnu wrote:
> Neither am I! In fact, if this sub-thread shows anything, it's that failing
> to grasp the difference "between water and cups" appears to be a trait of
> some seemingly educated Americans [1].
This is way off-topic, but the whole mass/quantity issue is very
interesting in English, I think. Water is a good one: `waters' means
something quite strange (possibly `Oceans'?) and is probably archaic.
Except that you can say `three waters' which really means `three
glasses of water' I guess, and is an American-english thing I am
almost sure (because, say `three beers' definitely is). So, maybe,
American English is inventing quantity-noun meanings of mass nouns (`a
beer', `a water', are there any which aren't things you drink?), which
leads to adjectival confusion?
--tim
Tim Bradshaw wrote:
>
> ... So, maybe,
> American English is inventing quantity-noun meanings of mass nouns (`a
> beer', `a water', are there any which aren't things you drink?),
Consider the fairly common, but probably not American, phrase:
"So that's three pillau rice, a plain nan, and some poppadums"
An uncountable noun taking an integral specifier, a countable
noun with an indefinite article, and a countable noun used
with an existential quantifier.
("Oh - and lots more lager")
From: Tim Bradshaw
Subject: Re: Getting started: what is a typical programming session?
Date:
Message-ID: <ey3u1h8erjz.fsf@cley.com>
* Ian Wild wrote:
> "So that's three pillau rice, a plain nan, and some poppadums"
I'd say `three pillau rices', and I'd argue that `rices' is then
countable. Actually, I might say (and my father would say, I think):
`three portions of ...'.
I think the other two are uncontroversial, aren't they? indefinite
article and `some' are OK for countable things: a telephone, some
cats. `Some poppadum' sounds like some sort of quasi-cool slang `I
need to get me some poppadum, man'...
--tim
Tim Bradshaw wrote:
> So, maybe,
> American English is inventing quantity-noun meanings of mass nouns (`a
> beer', `a water', are there any which aren't things you drink?), which
> leads to adjectival confusion?
We have the same in German: "ein Wasser", "zwei Bier", "drei Kaffe und
drei Kaesekuchen, bitte"
The last one is interesting - when you order "three chocolate cake", you
don't want to have three whole cakes, but just three slices...
Pascal
--
Pascal Costanza University of Bonn
···············@web.de Institute of Computer Science III
http://www.pascalcostanza.de R�merstr. 164, D-53117 Bonn (Germany)
In article <············@f1node01.rhrz.uni-bonn.de>,
Pascal Costanza <········@web.de> wrote:
>Tim Bradshaw wrote:
>
>> So, maybe,
>> American English is inventing quantity-noun meanings of mass nouns (`a
>> beer', `a water', are there any which aren't things you drink?), which
>> leads to adjectival confusion?
>
>We have the same in German: "ein Wasser", "zwei Bier", "drei Kaffe und
>drei Kaesekuchen, bitte"
>
>The last one is interesting - when you order "three chocolate cake", you
>don't want to have three whole cakes, but just three slices...
That's because your local restaurant uses coercion in its parsing
routines. Anything you ask for gets converted into the units of food
that will be used to calculate the bill. Of course, in a pretentious
place that serves tasting flights of beer (or water) you're still going
to have ambiguities, because the quantity names (Three Beers) may have
been overloaded as the name of a single unit.
paul nuts is our business
From: Tim Bradshaw
Subject: Re: Getting started: what is a typical programming session?
Date:
Message-ID: <ey3ptrwercr.fsf@cley.com>
* Pascal Costanza wrote:
> We have the same in German: "ein Wasser", "zwei Bier", "drei Kaffe und
> drei Kaesekuchen, bitte"
I remember that. Is that unambiguously OK German, or is it something
(like `a water') that some people might object to? (I'm just curious,
to see if it's the same as English, because German presumably doesn't
have such direct influence on it by seething hordes of Americans - can
things sound `american' in German, like `a beer' does in English for
instance?).
--tim
Tim Bradshaw <···@cley.com> writes:
> can things sound `american' in German, like `a beer' does in English
> for instance?).
Okay, so I thought I knew English pretty well. What's British English
for 'a beer'? 'A pint'?
-Peter
--
Peter Seibel
·····@javamonkey.com
Peter Seibel <·····@javamonkey.com> writes:
> Tim Bradshaw <···@cley.com> writes:
>
> > can things sound `american' in German, like `a beer' does in English
> > for instance?).
>
> Okay, so I thought I knew English pretty well. What's British English
> for 'a beer'? 'A pint'?
A `half' :-)
As in "fancy popping out to the Hedgehog for a swift half?".
Of, course, `beer' isn't specific enough. A typical order might be
"Two Stellas, one Guinness, a Piddle in the Snow,
two-and-a-half Bass, half a Boddie's and a Woodpecker."
`Beer' sounds almost as weird as "A pint of your finest ale, please,
barman".
Jacek Generowicz <················@cern.ch> writes:
> Peter Seibel <·····@javamonkey.com> writes:
>
>> Okay, so I thought I knew English pretty well. What's British English
>> for 'a beer'? 'A pint'?
>
> A `half' :-)
Pansy
-dan
--
http://www.cliki.net/ - Link farm for free CL-on-Unix resources
From: Tim Bradshaw
Subject: Re: Getting started: what is a typical programming session?
Date:
Message-ID: <ey3lm2keh3m.fsf@cley.com>
* Peter Seibel wrote:
> Okay, so I thought I knew English pretty well. What's British English
> for 'a beer'? 'A pint'?
`a pint of x' (or `a half of x') where x is the beer in question. I
think `an x' is OK as well (and would mean a pint).
--tim
From: Nils Goesche
Subject: Re: Getting started: what is a typical programming session?
Date:
Message-ID: <87adj0iqar.fsf@darkstar.cartan>
Tim Bradshaw <···@cley.com> writes:
> * Pascal Costanza wrote:
>
> > We have the same in German: "ein Wasser", "zwei Bier", "drei
> > Kaffe und drei Kaesekuchen, bitte"
Everybody except lowly proletarians says ``Kaffee��, not
``Kaffe�� ;-)
> I remember that. Is that unambiguously OK German, or is it
> something (like `a water') that some people might object to?
I think it is perfectly ok.
> (I'm just curious, to see if it's the same as English, because
> German presumably doesn't have such direct influence on it by
> seething hordes of Americans - can things sound `american' in
> German, like `a beer' does in English for instance?).
Well, things can sound horribly /English/ :-) For instance, when
somebody (wrongly) says ``In 1984, ...�� instead of just omitting
``in��. Or when somebody (wrongly) says ``Das macht (keinen)
Sinn�� instead of ``Das hat (keinen) Sinn�� or ``Das ergibt
(keinen) Sinn��. Or when people (wrongly) say ``In Englisch��
instead of ``Auf Englisch�� (but ``In englischer Sprache�� is
correct).
Or when companies, even socialist tax-money burners like our
railroads, call a ``Fahrkartenschalter�� a ``Service-Point��, or
a ``Schnellzug�� an ``Intercity Express�� or whatever. And what
the hell is a ``Bahncard��?
Sometimes it gets slightly ludicrous, like when Germans call a
``cell phone�� a ``Handy��. Or when German movie distributors
fear that Germans might not understand the English title of a
movie and replace it by /another/ English title! (Can't think of
an example, now, but they do that quite often)
Regards,
--
Nils G�sche
Ask not for whom the <CONTROL-G> tolls.
PGP key ID #xD26EF2A0
From: Tim Bradshaw
Subject: Re: Getting started: what is a typical programming session?
Date:
Message-ID: <ey3hed8egwf.fsf@cley.com>
* Nils Goesche wrote:
> Sometimes it gets slightly ludicrous, like when Germans call a
> ``cell phone�� a ``Handy��. Or when German movie distributors
> fear that Germans might not understand the English title of a
> movie and replace it by /another/ English title! (Can't think of
> an example, now, but they do that quite often)
This happens for americans too. the film called `The Madness of
George III' was renamed `The Madness of King George' for the US, which
I always liked, because it's completely useless - *which* King George,
there were hundreds of them, many of them mad.
--tim
From: Nils Goesche
Subject: Re: Getting started: what is a typical programming session?
Date:
Message-ID: <871y4cinm7.fsf@darkstar.cartan>
Tim Bradshaw <···@cley.com> writes:
> * Nils Goesche wrote:
>
> > Sometimes it gets slightly ludicrous, like when Germans call a
> > ``cell phone�� a ``Handy��. Or when German movie distributors
> > fear that Germans might not understand the English title of a
> > movie and replace it by /another/ English title! (Can't think of
> > an example, now, but they do that quite often)
>
> This happens for americans too. the film called `The Madness
> of George III' was renamed `The Madness of King George' for the
> US, which I always liked, because it's completely useless -
> *which* King George, there were hundreds of them, many of them
> mad.
Ok, but in this case the original title was clearly stupid. I
bet there were thousands of people who didn't want to see the
movie before they've seen ``The Madness of George�� part I and
II.
Regards,
--
Nils G�sche
Ask not for whom the <CONTROL-G> tolls.
PGP key ID #xD26EF2A0
Tim Bradshaw <···@cley.com> writes:
> * Nils Goesche wrote:
>
> > Sometimes it gets slightly ludicrous, like when Germans call a
> > ``cell phone�� a ``Handy��. Or when German movie distributors
> > fear that Germans might not understand the English title of a
> > movie and replace it by /another/ English title! (Can't think of
> > an example, now, but they do that quite often)
>
> This happens for americans too. the film called `The Madness of
> George III' was renamed `The Madness of King George' for the US, which
> I always liked, because it's completely useless - *which* King George,
> there were hundreds of them, many of them mad.
In the US, we only know one King George, that'd be George III (I had
to look this up to make sure). If you say "King George" to an
American, you'll most likely get the following in response:
- "Who?"
or maybe:
- "Oh, the one who was King during the Revolution?"
but only the most annoying Anglophile would reply:
- "Which King George? There were many of them."
Of course, I would expect the English to have a better handle on
English kings that Americans.
--
/|_ .-----------------------.
,' .\ / | No to Imperialist war |
,--' _,' | Wage class war! |
/ / `-----------------------'
( -. |
| ) |
(`-. '--.)
`. )----'
From: Wolfgang Mederle
Subject: Re: Getting started: what is a typical programming session?
Date:
Message-ID: <9fovta.9m.ln@DS9.mederle.de>
Nils Goesche wrote:
> Or when German movie distributors fear that Germans might not
> understand the English title of a movie and replace it by /another/
> English title! (Can't think of an example, now, but they do that quite
> often)
"Kick it like Beckham".
--
Wolfgang Mederle
From: Espen Vestre
Subject: Re: Getting started: what is a typical programming session?
Date:
Message-ID: <kwadj0byjd.fsf@merced.netfonds.no>
Pascal Costanza <········@web.de> writes:
> The last one is interesting - when you order "three chocolate cake",
> you don't want to have three whole cakes, but just three slices...
yes, but I guess "K�sekuchen" is an indefinite singular (which
indicates mass term use), but that you can't spot it, because
that word spells the same way in definite plural and indefinite
singular?
--
(espen)
From: Joe Marshall
Subject: Re: Getting started: what is a typical programming session?
Date:
Message-ID: <n0n0xvkv.fsf@ccs.neu.edu>
Tim Bradshaw <···@cley.com> writes:
> This is way off-topic, but the whole mass/quantity issue is very
> interesting in English, I think. Water is a good one: `waters' means
> something quite strange (possibly `Oceans'?) and is probably archaic.
> Except that you can say `three waters' which really means `three
> glasses of water' I guess, and is an American-english thing I am
> almost sure (because, say `three beers' definitely is). So, maybe,
> American English is inventing quantity-noun meanings of mass nouns (`a
> beer', `a water', are there any which aren't things you drink?), which
> leads to adjectival confusion?
So if you go to the southern states, how do you order the singular
form of `grits'?
Joe Marshall <···@ccs.neu.edu> wrote:
+---------------
| So if you go to the southern states, how do you order the singular
| form of `grits'?
+---------------
Simply: "Some grits, please." Or, "A side (order) of grits."
[However, note that during the breakfast hours this is often
a default, and in many places need not be mentioned explicitly!]
Or: "Two scrambled, bacon, & grits. And no toast or biscuits today, please."
Note: "A mess of grits" *might* get you a larger-than-normal serving,
but then again it might not (the normal serving already being rather
large as it is).
Another way to think of it: "Grits" is of the same number as "pants"
or "coffee grounds". In fact, it's quite close to the latter, since
the full term is "hominy grits", or rough-ground hominy corn. That is,
"grits" == "hominy corn grounds".
-Rob
-----
Rob Warnock, PP-ASEL-IA <····@rpw3.org>
627 26th Avenue <URL:http://www.rpw3.org/>
San Mateo, CA 94403 (650)572-2607
Tim Bradshaw <···@cley.com> writes:
> * oleg inconnu wrote:
>
> > Neither am I! In fact, if this sub-thread shows anything, it's that failing
> > to grasp the difference "between water and cups" appears to be a trait of
> > some seemingly educated Americans [1].
>
> This is way off-topic, but the whole mass/quantity issue is very
> interesting in English, I think. Water is a good one: `waters' means
> something quite strange (possibly `Oceans'?) and is probably archaic.
> Except that you can say `three waters' which really means `three
> glasses of water' I guess, and is an American-english thing I am
> almost sure (because, say `three beers' definitely is). So, maybe,
> American English is inventing quantity-noun meanings of mass nouns (`a
> beer', `a water', are there any which aren't things you drink?), which
> leads to adjectival confusion?
I'm not sure if I'm right, but I always figured that American English
borrowed this from latin languages -- "un caff�", for example.
Remember, in the late-19th/early-20th Century, the US had French
speakers to the north, Spanish speakers to the South, and a
mind-bogglingly huge influx of Southern Europeans. We might speak
English, but most of us don't trace our family history back to England :)
--
/|_ .-----------------------.
,' .\ / | No to Imperialist war |
,--' _,' | Wage class war! |
/ / `-----------------------'
( -. |
| ) |
(`-. '--.)
`. )----'
From: Harald Hanche-Olsen
Subject: Re: Getting started: what is a typical programming session?
Date:
Message-ID: <pcofzsswhx6.fsf@thoth.math.ntnu.no>
+ Tim Bradshaw <···@cley.com>:
| This is way off-topic, but the whole mass/quantity issue is very
| interesting in English, I think. Water is a good one: `waters' means
| something quite strange (possibly `Oceans'?) and is probably archaic.
You can go sailing in Norwegian waters. Nothing archaic about it.
(Look it up.)
--
* Harald Hanche-Olsen <URL:http://www.math.ntnu.no/~hanche/>
- Yes it works in practice - but does it work in theory?
From: Tim Bradshaw
Subject: Re: Getting started: what is a typical programming session?
Date:
Message-ID: <ey38yykdt6j.fsf@cley.com>
* Harald Hanche-Olsen wrote:
> You can go sailing in Norwegian waters. Nothing archaic about it.
> (Look it up.)
I don't need to coming from a sailing background & being obsessed
about things naval (:-). Yes, you are right, it's not archaic in that
usage at all.
--tim
"Tim Bradshaw" <···@cley.com> wrote in message
····················@cley.com...
> * oleg inconnu wrote:
>
> > Neither am I! In fact, if this sub-thread shows anything, it's that
failing
> > to grasp the difference "between water and cups" appears to be a trait
of
> > some seemingly educated Americans [1].
>
> This is way off-topic, but the whole mass/quantity issue is very
> interesting in English, I think. Water is a good one: `waters' means
> something quite strange (possibly `Oceans'?) and is probably archaic.
> Except that you can say `three waters' which really means `three
> glasses of water' I guess, and is an American-english thing I am
> almost sure (because, say `three beers' definitely is). So, maybe,
> American English is inventing quantity-noun meanings of mass nouns (`a
> beer', `a water', are there any which aren't things you drink?),
Tofu burger and two large fries...? Though I can see objections to that
example (ie it is really "two large [orders of] fries") Same for "four
[bags of] chips" Guess i can't think of anything else.
--
Coby Beck
(remove #\Space "coby 101 @ bigpond . com")
From: Kenny Tilton
Subject: Re: Getting started: what is a typical programming session?
Date:
Message-ID: <3E034509.1040207@nyc.rr.com>
Oleg wrote:
> Neither am I! In fact, if this sub-thread shows anything, it's that ...
... a great bit of wit such as connecting less vs fewer with a type
error confusing floats and integers will get smothered in an avalanche
of typical newsgroupian nits.
{| |} {| |}
--
kenny tilton
clinisys, inc
http://www.tilton-technology.com/
---------------------------------------------------------------
"Cells let us walk, talk, think, make love and realize
the bath water is cold." -- Lorraine Lee Cudmore
On Fri, Dec 20, 2002 at 04:23:08PM +0000, Kenny Tilton wrote:
> Oleg wrote:
>
> > Neither am I! In fact, if this sub-thread shows anything, it's that ...
>
> ... a great bit of wit such as connecting less vs fewer with a type
> error confusing floats and integers will get smothered in an avalanche
> of typical newsgroupian nits.
Wit? Since when is a mismatched metaphor considered wit?
I'm still waiting to hear the floating-point value of `less', by the
inversion lemma.
Certainly, we understand his intention. But I don't see his so-called
wit as being any better than the original mistake.
--
; Matthew Danish <·······@andrew.cmu.edu>
; OpenPGP public key: C24B6010 on keyring.debian.org
; Signed or encrypted mail welcome.
; "There is no dark side of the moon really; matter of fact, it's all dark."
"Matthew Danish" <·······@andrew.cmu.edu> wrote in message
··························@lain.cheme.cmu.edu...
> On Thu, Dec 19, 2002 at 06:51:55AM -0500, Oleg wrote:
> > Martin Thornquist wrote:
> > > I think this helps me make far less "simple" mistakes (which
> > ^^^^
> > "This expression has type float but is here used with type int" ;)
>
> Fortunately, people are smarter than type-checkers.
>
> I am curious how `less' has been deduced to have type `float' in this
> message, and why `int' was expected? :-P
Less operates on continuous quantites, whereas "mistakes" are counted one by
one...less water, fewer cups.
But I agree, humans are more flexible (is that really the same as smarter?
More forgiving anyway..)
--
Coby Beck
(remove #\Space "coby 101 @ bigpond . com")
On Fri, Dec 20, 2002 at 07:41:41AM +1100, Coby Beck wrote:
>
> "Matthew Danish" <·······@andrew.cmu.edu> wrote in message
> ··························@lain.cheme.cmu.edu...
> > On Thu, Dec 19, 2002 at 06:51:55AM -0500, Oleg wrote:
> > > Martin Thornquist wrote:
> > > > I think this helps me make far less "simple" mistakes (which
> > > ^^^^
> > > "This expression has type float but is here used with type int" ;)
> >
> > Fortunately, people are smarter than type-checkers.
> >
> > I am curious how `less' has been deduced to have type `float' in this
> > message, and why `int' was expected? :-P
>
> Less operates on continuous quantites, whereas "mistakes" are counted one by
> one...less water, fewer cups.
Well, which member of the `float' type does `less' correspond to, is what
I was wondering. `less' is a relation, as in (less x y) ``Is x less
than y?''
And `float' isn't very continuous either... in English we aren't
restricted to machine-representable terms such as `int' (which I've
always seen to be machine-word-sized) or `float'.
> But I agree, humans are more flexible (is that really the same as smarter?
> More forgiving anyway..)
They can construct the proper meaning from a superficially ambiguous
statement. I'm sure Oleg had figured it out, despite his ``smart''
comment =)
--
; Matthew Danish <·······@andrew.cmu.edu>
; OpenPGP public key: C24B6010 on keyring.debian.org
; Signed or encrypted mail welcome.
; "There is no dark side of the moon really; matter of fact, it's all dark."
Matthew Danish <·······@andrew.cmu.edu> wrote in message news:<·····················@lain.cheme.cmu.edu>...
> On Fri, Dec 20, 2002 at 07:41:41AM +1100, Coby Beck wrote:
> >
> > "Matthew Danish" <·······@andrew.cmu.edu> wrote in message
> > ··························@lain.cheme.cmu.edu...
> > > On Thu, Dec 19, 2002 at 06:51:55AM -0500, Oleg wrote:
> > > > Martin Thornquist wrote:
> > > > > I think this helps me make far less "simple" mistakes (which
> > > > ^^^^
> > > > "This expression has type float but is here used with type int" ;)
> > >
> > > Fortunately, people are smarter than type-checkers.
Perhaps the most important thing to get clear here is that no one
including Oleg is putting down Martin (for what turns out to be
acceptable or at worst disputed usage), it was just an opportunity for
a funny remark, and those should never be passed over.
> > >
> > > I am curious how `less' has been deduced to have type `float' in this
> > > message, and why `int' was expected? :-P
> >
> > Less operates on continuous quantites, whereas "mistakes" are counted one by
> > one...less water, fewer cups.
>
> Well, which member of the `float' type does `less' correspond to, is what
> I was wondering. `less' is a relation, as in (less x y) ``Is x less
> than y?''
>
> And `float' isn't very continuous either... in English we aren't
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
isn't that another type error? or do mathematicians have a metric for
continuosity? anyway, you don't need floats to count mistakes, and
floats not being continuous does not compromise the wit of Oleg's
remark.
I've had many a joke made at my expense, over which I had a good laugh
before correcting its underlying flaw. Humor depends on its accuracy,
but sometimes the humor itself justifies a little leeway (about
.000000001?) from the audience.
kt
Oleg wrote:
> Martin Thornquist wrote:
>
> > I think this helps me make far less "simple" mistakes (which
> ^^^^
> "This expression has type float but is here used with type int" ;)
Nah. He just means that he makes more complicated mistakes.
--
Gareth McCaughan ················@pobox.com
.sig under construc