Hi everybody,
I am relatively new to the Lisp world. Because of my involvement with
Richard Gabriel's Feyerabend project I have been confronted with Common
Lisp and digged deeply into it for the last few months. I have written a
summary of what I have found out and made it available recently at
http://www.pascalcostanza.de/lisp/guide.html. Please let me know what
you think.
All the best,
Pascal
--
Pascal Costanza University of Bonn
···············@web.de Institute of Computer Science III
http://www.pascalcostanza.de R�merstr. 164, D-53117 Bonn (Germany)
Pascal Costanza <········@cs.uni-bonn.de> wrote in message news:<·················@cs.uni-bonn.de>...
> Hi everybody,
>
> I am relatively new to the Lisp world. Because of my involvement with
> Richard Gabriel's Feyerabend project I have been confronted with Common
> Lisp and digged deeply into it for the last few months. I have written a
> summary of what I have found out and made it available recently at
> http://www.pascalcostanza.de/lisp/guide.html. Please let me know what
> you think.
Great article!
Could you also please summarize the Feyerabend project in a few lines?
Thank you,
TheLifter
thelifter wrote:
>
> Pascal Costanza <········@cs.uni-bonn.de> wrote in message news:<·················@cs.uni-bonn.de>...
[...]
> > http://www.pascalcostanza.de/lisp/guide.html. Please let me know what
> > you think.
>
> Great article!
> Could you also please summarize the Feyerabend project in a few lines?
Noone can do it better like Richard Gabriel ;-) So here is a link
http://www.dreamsongs.com/Feyerabend/Feyerabend.html
Pascal
--
Pascal Costanza University of Bonn
···············@web.de Institute of Computer Science III
http://www.pascalcostanza.de R�merstr. 164, D-53117 Bonn (Germany)
In article <·················@cs.uni-bonn.de>,
Pascal Costanza <········@web.de> wrote:
>thelifter wrote:
>>
>> Pascal Costanza <········@cs.uni-bonn.de> wrote in message
>news:<·················@cs.uni-bonn.de>...
>
>[...]
>
>> > http://www.pascalcostanza.de/lisp/guide.html. Please let me know what
>> > you think.
>>
>> Great article!
>> Could you also please summarize the Feyerabend project in a few lines?
>
>Noone can do it better like Richard Gabriel ;-) So here is a link
>http://www.dreamsongs.com/Feyerabend/Feyerabend.html
Well, if no one can do it better, I guess it's just impossible to do well.
I read that page when I first saw it in your guide, and I'm still just as
much in the dark about what they're doing. It just seems to be a vague,
idealistic "let's go back to square one and figure out how to program
computers the right way" thing. Unless I missed them, there were no links
to any specific techniques they've come up with. And given the momentum of
the current programming paradigms, I wish them good luck with a major
paradigm shift of this nature.
--
Barry Margolin, ······@genuity.net
Genuity, Woburn, MA
*** DON'T SEND TECHNICAL QUESTIONS DIRECTLY TO ME, post them to newsgroups.
Please DON'T copy followups to me -- I'll assume it wasn't posted to the group.
Barry Margolin wrote:
>
> In article <·················@cs.uni-bonn.de>,
> Pascal Costanza <········@web.de> wrote:
> >thelifter wrote:
[...]
> >> Could you also please summarize the Feyerabend project in a few lines?
> >
> >Noone can do it better like Richard Gabriel ;-) So here is a link
> >http://www.dreamsongs.com/Feyerabend/Feyerabend.html
>
> Well, if no one can do it better, I guess it's just impossible to do well.
> I read that page when I first saw it in your guide, and I'm still just as
> much in the dark about what they're doing. It just seems to be a vague,
> idealistic "let's go back to square one and figure out how to program
> computers the right way" thing. Unless I missed them, there were no links
> to any specific techniques they've come up with. And given the momentum of
> the current programming paradigms, I wish them good luck with a major
> paradigm shift of this nature.
OK, here is a little bit meta-information about the Feyerabend project:
as I understand it, it is mainly about having wild new ideas about what
could be done differently in computer science than it is done right now.
So it's more a brainstorm thing and there are no specific goals set (so,
of course, they cannot be reached ;).
There are projects that emerged from the Feyerabend project, like the
"Biological Framings of Problems in Computing"
(http://www.dreamsongs.com/Feyerabend/BiologicalFramings.html) or the
Extravegaria Workshop at this year's OOPSLA
(http://www.dreamsongs.com/Feyerabend/Extravagaria.html).
If you click around on rpg's website you will find many more intersting
topics.
Pascal
--
Pascal Costanza University of Bonn
···············@web.de Institute of Computer Science III
http://www.pascalcostanza.de R�merstr. 164, D-53117 Bonn (Germany)
Oops! Pascal Costanza <········@cs.uni-bonn.de> was seen spray-painting on a wall:
> OK, here is a little bit meta-information about the Feyerabend
> project: as I understand it, it is mainly about having wild new
> ideas about what could be done differently in computer science than
> it is done right now. So it's more a brainstorm thing and there are
> no specific goals set (so, of course, they cannot be reached ;).
It seems to amount to "we think there are some problems in computer
science, and we'd like to solve them."
That doesn't forcibly imply terribly much of anything about the
answers.
It's sort of like the (out of print) "Unix Hater's Guide;" that was a
book written about the evils of Unix by some people that hated Unix.
There were some legitimate points, but unfortunately it doesn't lead
the reader towards any sort of _useful_ resolution.
A facile reading of the authors' bios indicates that a bunch of them
work for Microsoft: is that to imply that Microsoft's products are the
answer? I hardly think so, as their products have flaws even more
gaping than the ones that Unix gets flogged for. A more careful look
at the bios shows that a number of the authors were ex-"Lisp Machine"
guys, and that _that_ may be more like their "Holy Grail." But the
book never suggests _any_ form of answer.
I think that until the "Feyerabend project" actually has some
_concrete_ techniques/theories/answers/solutions, it's just going to
amount to vague wishful thinking. If they are merely at the "asking
questions" or "criticizing the mainstream" point, there's not much
meaningful about it.
--
(concatenate 'string "cbbrowne" ·@ntlug.org")
http://www3.sympatico.ca/cbbrowne/unixhaters.html
Why does the word "lisp" have an "s" in it?
Christopher Browne wrote:
> If they are merely at the "asking questions"
> or "criticizing the mainstream" point,
> there's not much meaningful about it.
Hmm. Isn't that the step most people forget before coming up with an (in
hindsight) evil solution?
I wish people spent more time coming up with the right questions before
getting involved in finding answers..
--
Biep
Reply via any name whatsoever at the main domain corresponding to
http://www.biep.org
From: Greg Menke
Subject: Re: Feyerabend project, was Re: My guide to Lisp
Date:
Message-ID: <m34rdl1kf4.fsf@europa.pienet>
"Biep @ http://www.biep.org/" <·········@my-web-site.com> writes:
> Christopher Browne wrote:
> > If they are merely at the "asking questions"
> > or "criticizing the mainstream" point,
> > there's not much meaningful about it.
>
> Hmm. Isn't that the step most people forget before coming up with an (in
> hindsight) evil solution?
>
> I wish people spent more time coming up with the right questions before
> getting involved in finding answers..
>
> --
> Biep
> Reply via any name whatsoever at the main domain corresponding to
> http://www.biep.org
Perhaps there should be something like an "Adams 42nd Principle" which
states "The usefulness of an answer is proportional to the
meaningfulness of the problem statement."
Gregm
> It seems to amount to "we think there are some problems in computer
> science, and we'd like to solve them."
Actually it seems they are on to something more radical than that.
Here's a quote from the workshop announcement for 2003:
http://www.dreamsongs.com/Feyerabend/ETAPS03/index.html
Fifty years into the First Computing Era some of us in the
computing arena have come to realize we have made a false start
that cannnot be fixed, and for us to finally be able to produce
lasting, correct, beautiful, usable, scalable, enjoyable software
that stands the tests of time and moral human endeaveor, we need
to start over. Perhaps we will be able to salvage some of what we
have learned from the First Era, but we expect almost everything
except the most mathematical and philosophical fundamentals to be
brushed aside.
So they want to start over.
--
Fred Gilham ······@csl.sri.com
I think it's pretty obvious that the worship of that false idol known
as the State has, in the 20th Century, had some very bad effects. The
historians I'm familiar with have settled on the number of dead as 177
million, although I?ve seen estimates of up to 200 million.
-Bob Wallace
Pascal Costanza <········@cs.uni-bonn.de> wrote in message news:<·················@cs.uni-bonn.de>...
> Noone can do it better like Richard Gabriel ;-) So here is a link
> http://www.dreamsongs.com/Feyerabend/Feyerabend.html
>
> Pascal
Ok,
one thing I was always thinking about since I'm very interested in AI
is the following:
1. Are there "processes" done by natural neural networks(Brains) that
CANNOT be simulated by conventional computers?
I think the answer to this question is terribly important. Because if
the answer is YES, possibly there will be no way to achieve human like
intelligence with computers. And then we must start thinking about how
to build a machine that can simulate a Brain?
OTOH if the answer is NO, it means that we can simulate a brain trough
software and we can focus more on software and forget the underlying
hardware.
Has this question already been answered by someone?
Thx...
PS: Just some additional food for thought: Are there electric circuits
that can not be simulated by software?
I know at least one answer: You can build a random number generating
circuit(measuring radioactive decay). But you cannot make the same
with software. If you do it by software it will generate a total
predictable sequence of numbers.
In article <····························@posting.google.com>,
·········@gmx.net (thelifter) wrote:
> PS: Just some additional food for thought: Are there electric circuits
> that can not be simulated by software?
>
> I know at least one answer: You can build a random number generating
> circuit(measuring radioactive decay). But you cannot make the same
> with software. If you do it by software it will generate a total
> predictable sequence of numbers.
This is commonly believed, but it turns out not to be true. See
http://mathpages.com/rr/s9-08/9-08.htm
E.
On Thu, 22 Aug 2002 16:18:54 +0200, Pascal Costanza
<········@cs.uni-bonn.de> wrote:
> Lisp and digged deeply into it for the last few months. I have written a
> summary of what I have found out and made it available recently at
> http://www.pascalcostanza.de/lisp/guide.html. Please let me know what
> you think.
I share the positive feedback expressed by others in this thread. I include
below some specific comments. They refer to version 1.01, 21/8/2002 of the
document.
> This document is in the public domain. You can freely copy and redistribute
> it and even reuse parts of it in your own work as long as you acknowledge
> my authorship.
If the document is in the public domain, I think you can't require that
users acknowledge your authorship. You can only ask this and hope users
comply.
> 7. Available implementations
[...]
> Allegro Common Lisp
There is a version of ACL free for personal use.
> CormanLisp
Ditto.
> PowerLisp
The PowerLisp code was released as open source. A new project has been set
up to maintain and further develop the system:
http://sourceforge.net/projects/powerlisp
Another good Lisp system for the Mac is OpenMCL, which is based on MCL:
http://openmcl.clozure.net
> 10. More advanced basics
[...]
> Strings are a little bit complicated in Common Lisp for the following
> reasons.
The sequence forms also apply to strings.
> 12. Object-oriented features (CLOS)
[...]
> CLOS offers full object-orientation with classes, subclassing, multiple
> inheritance, multi-methods and before-, after- and around advices.
Your intended audience may not be familiar with method combination issues,
so it may be worth briefly introducing such concepts.
> 17. What is missing?
[...]
> Many things are not included in ANSI Common Lisp that are by now taken
> for granted in other, more fashionable programming languages. Among
> these features are: a proper module ("system construction") facility,
> Unicode support, a platform-independent GUI library, sockets and TCP/IP,
> XML, WebServices, and so on (add your favorite feature here).
For some thoughts about Lisp libraries you may read the comp.lang.lisp
article by Erik Naggum with Message-ID: <················@naggum.no>.
I almost forgot: welcome to Lisp!
Paolo
--
EncyCMUCLopedia * Extensive collection of CMU Common Lisp documentation
http://www.paoloamoroso.it/ency/README
In the last exciting episode, Paolo Amoroso <·······@mclink.it> wrote::
>> PowerLisp
>
> The PowerLisp code was released as open source. A new project has been set
> up to maintain and further develop the system:
>
> http://sourceforge.net/projects/powerlisp
This URL reports that it is an "Invalid Project."
Are you thinking of:
http://www-2.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/project/ai-repository/ai/lang/lisp/impl/powerlsp/0.html
http://www.cormanlisp.com/PowerLisp.html
http://ww.telent.net/cliki/PowerLisp
--
(concatenate 'string "chris" ·@cbbrowne.com")
http://cbbrowne.com/info/oses.html
What would the world be like with no hypothetical situations?
On 24 Aug 2002 18:31:48 GMT, Christopher Browne <········@acm.org> wrote:
> In the last exciting episode, Paolo Amoroso <·······@mclink.it> wrote::
> >> PowerLisp
> >
> > The PowerLisp code was released as open source. A new project has been set
> > up to maintain and further develop the system:
> >
> > http://sourceforge.net/projects/powerlisp
>
> This URL reports that it is an "Invalid Project."
I last checked this URL in September 2001, and assumed it still worked.
Apologies.
> Are you thinking of:
> http://www-2.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/project/ai-repository/ai/lang/lisp/impl/powerlsp/0.html
> http://www.cormanlisp.com/PowerLisp.html
> http://ww.telent.net/cliki/PowerLisp
Yes.
Paolo
--
EncyCMUCLopedia * Extensive collection of CMU Common Lisp documentation
http://www.paoloamoroso.it/ency/README
Paolo Amoroso wrote:
>
> On Thu, 22 Aug 2002 16:18:54 +0200, Pascal Costanza
> <········@cs.uni-bonn.de> wrote:
> > http://www.pascalcostanza.de/lisp/guide.html. Please let me know what
> > you think.
>
> I share the positive feedback expressed by others in this thread. I include
> below some specific comments. They refer to version 1.01, 21/8/2002 of the
> document.
> > PowerLisp
>
> The PowerLisp code was released as open source. A new project has been set
> up to maintain and further develop the system:
>
> http://sourceforge.net/projects/powerlisp
Except for announcements, I haven't seen any real sign of life for this
project. Where (in the net) is this happening?
> For some thoughts about Lisp libraries you may read the comp.lang.lisp
> article by Erik Naggum with Message-ID: <················@naggum.no>.
I don't find this message - could you perhaps forward this to me?
> I almost forgot: welcome to Lisp!
Thanks a lot! ;-)
Pascal
--
Pascal Costanza University of Bonn
···············@web.de Institute of Computer Science III
http://www.pascalcostanza.de R�merstr. 164, D-53117 Bonn (Germany)
Pascal Costanza <········@cs.uni-bonn.de> writes:
> Paolo Amoroso wrote:
>
> > For some thoughts about Lisp libraries you may read the
> > comp.lang.lisp article by Erik Naggum with Message-ID:
> > <················@naggum.no>.
>
> I don't find this message - could you perhaps forward this to me?
'groups.google.com/groups?selm=' and then add the Message ID, i.e
<·····················································@naggum.no>
Edi.
On Mon, 26 Aug 2002 12:01:31 +0200, Pascal Costanza
<········@cs.uni-bonn.de> wrote:
> Paolo Amoroso wrote:
[...]
> > http://sourceforge.net/projects/powerlisp
>
> Except for announcements, I haven't seen any real sign of life for this
> project. Where (in the net) is this happening?
I suggest that you ask Roger Corman.
> > For some thoughts about Lisp libraries you may read the comp.lang.lisp
> > article by Erik Naggum with Message-ID: <················@naggum.no>.
>
> I don't find this message - could you perhaps forward this to me?
I forward it separately.
Paolo
--
EncyCMUCLopedia * Extensive collection of CMU Common Lisp documentation
http://www.paoloamoroso.it/ency/README