MANY OF TODAYS SOFTWARE-TECHNOLOGY IS IN FACT USELESS.
SO I THINK TO REWRITE IT - MAY LISP HELPS ???
#V0.1
some facts about me:
- i like the freedom & flexibility of low-level-hardware-languages (e.g.
DATA-I/O ABEL, VHDL), where you can define the instructions of the
micro-processor-core that you design.
[but this languages have annoying redundancies, irrationales that i
cannot workaround]
- i like the freedom & flexibility of RISC-asseblers, combined with the
ease of MAKRO-Assembler, wher i can build my own Complex-Instructions.
- i like "C"
- i love "C++"
what are common to all those different languages?
redundancies, inconsistencies, inperfection, limitation [...]
So i look only a little at JAVA, as it would disapoint me, too.
Disapointment starts with VisualBasic, 10 years ago, tuching its limits
after a few weeks. Cannot make this, cannot get this, take this
assembler-module so you can modify you arrays like that.
Same thing for C++. I cannot work like i want to work. Inconsistent
desing of the language drives me crazy when analyzing indeep.
Why?
An analytical brain with high tendencies to "normalize" works like a
machine, detecting the "wrong" trying to move it to the status "right".
That brain uses something to encode its output. In software-developement
this is usually a programming-language & some tools.
"wrong" is annoying, and so brain thinks all the time about "how i can
modify the "wrong" (of the language/tools) to make it "right" ".
So, many workarounds. But no access to the compiler-cores, to the
language-cores. disapointing conditions.
Someone says: "Take GNU C++ and modify"
Another says: "Write your own"
Yes, seems a solution.
But! May LISP helps ???
I need (language, tools, vendor):
LANGUAGE
- Object-orientation
- consistent straight-through design of the language
- A language-core, that can be extended & modified
- those extensions must be supported by the debuggers & other tools
- easy interoperability with other languages (C++, JAVA)
- easy to modify, if possible on runtime
- easy binding to OODBs
TOOLS
- easy interoperability with other tools
- highly extensible, configurable
- Graphical Modeling, based on standards (UML)
- Graphical Modeling, based on own rules
- compileable to Executable file for major machine/OS types
- Some kind of copy-protection, if code is interpreted
- easy OO GUI
- available for different operating-systems
- transparent and changable bindinds to todays technologies (CORBA etc.)
VENDOR
- fixed rate commercial licence (not binded to no. of end-product licences)
- quick & easy service-system (especially for providing bug-fixes)
- if possilbe, open-source (partially or fully).
So.
MAY LISP HELPS ???
ilias <·······@pontos.net> writes:
> I need (language, tools, vendor):
> LANGUAGE
> - Object-orientation
> - consistent straight-through design of the language
> - A language-core, that can be extended & modified
> - those extensions must be supported by the debuggers & other tools
These ar some of Common Lisp's strong points.
> - easy interoperability with other languages (C++, JAVA)
Common Lisp is an ANSI-standardized language, that is meant to be very
portable, and that has many implementations. One of the consequences
of this is that there is no standard FFI (foreign function interface).
However, each implementation does have its own. But they tend to be
C-based. In fact, it would be very difficult [*] to have a C++ FFI
because every C++ platform (combination of OS, processor, and compiler
version) uses an ad-hoc, often poorly specified (if at all) interface.
That said, at least on Unix, things tend to come with a C interface,
and it's easy to interface to C using the major CL's. As for Java, I
think only Allegro CL has a java FFI.
> - easy to modify, if possible on runtime
Naturally.
> - easy binding to OODBs
You have some options here.
> TOOLS
> - easy interoperability with other tools
This goal is very conflicting with your other goals, assuming you mean
development tools. Most people use Emacs to interact with their Lisp
system (sometimes GNU or X Emacs, sometimes a system-provided one),
but since most tools explicitly *don't* support the features you want
above, this isn't reasonable or possible.
> - highly extensible, configurable
of course.
> - Graphical Modeling, based on standards (UML)
UML is too restrictive to describe CLOS (the Common Lisp Object
System). On the one hand, if you try CL, you'll get an powerful
object system that makes the ones you've used before look like toys.
On the other hand, you need to leave the toys behind.
> - Graphical Modeling, based on own rules
I'm not sure. I wouldn't be surprised if there were tools for this,
but I don't use them. Certainly they'd be easy to write.
> - compileable to Executable file for major machine/OS types
There are very good native-code compilers for Common Lisp. Rest
assured that you *can* deliver an end product in a form that doesn't
require that the user have any idea you used Lisp. Don't worry about
specifics until you get close to the point of needing this.
> - Some kind of copy-protection, if code is interpreted
> - easy OO GUI
Do you mean an OO toolkit for building GUIs? If so, there are several.
> - available for different operating-systems
The language has had implementations on operating systems more
disparate than Java could dream of.
> - transparent and changable bindinds to todays technologies (CORBA etc.)
There are CORBA bindings. You can quite easily construct such
bindings, and if done properly, they'll be transparent to the extent
that the technology doesn't make restrictive assumptions about the language.
> VENDOR
> - fixed rate commercial licence (not binded to no. of end-product licences)
> - quick & easy service-system (especially for providing bug-fixes)
These two are awfully different than the next one:
> - if possilbe, open-source (partially or fully).
There are both high-quality commercial and open-source (public domain,
and GPL) implementations. The major commercial implementations are:
- Allegro CL (Windows, Unix, I think Mac soon)
- LispWorks (Windows, Unix)
- Corman Lisp (Windows)
- Macintosh Common Lisp (Mac)
All of these compile to native code. The major open-source implementations are:
- CMUCL (Unix)
- SBCL (Unix)
- CLISP (Unix, Windows, Mac, others)
CMUCL and SBCL are different forks of the same code base. Both have a
very good native-code compiler. CMUCL has more features, SBCL is
easier to maintain. CLISP compiles to bytecodes, and its bytecode
interpreter is very very portable.
> So.
>
> MAY LISP HELPS ???
I think the answer is "yes".
--
/|_ .-----------------------.
,' .\ / | No to Imperialist war |
,--' _,' | Wage class war! |
/ / `-----------------------'
( -. |
| ) |
(`-. '--.)
`. )----'
Thomas F. Burdick wrote:
> ilias <·······@pontos.net> writes:
>
>
>>I need (language, tools, vendor):
>>LANGUAGE
...
> There are both high-quality commercial and open-source (public domain,
> and GPL) implementations. The major commercial implementations are:
>
> - Allegro CL (Windows, Unix, I think Mac soon)
> - LispWorks (Windows, Unix)
> - Corman Lisp (Windows)
> - Macintosh Common Lisp (Mac)
>
> All of these compile to native code. The major open-source implementations are:
>
> - CMUCL (Unix)
> - SBCL (Unix)
> - CLISP (Unix, Windows, Mac, others)
...
is there a graphical (some kind of table) overview of those tools?
ilias <·······@pontos.net> writes:
> is there a graphical (some kind of table) overview of those tools?
No. You have all the information you need to make one if you're stuck
on graphics.
--
/|_ .-----------------------.
,' .\ / | No to Imperialist war |
,--' _,' | Wage class war! |
/ / `-----------------------'
( -. |
| ) |
(`-. '--.)
`. )----'
Thomas F. Burdick wrote:
> ilias <·······@pontos.net> writes:
>
>
>>is there a graphical (some kind of table) overview of those tools?
>
>
> No.
i'm sure you mean: 'i don't know'
> You have all the information you need to make one if you're stuck
> on graphics.
>
i'm not stuck on graphics.
i simply recongnise information easier and quicker in that form.
many, many humans i know have the same problems (or 'problem).
"ilias" <·······@pontos.net> wrote in message
·····················@pontos.net...
> Thomas F. Burdick wrote:
> > ilias <·······@pontos.net> writes:
> >
...
> > There are both high-quality commercial and open-source (public domain,
> > and GPL) implementations. The major commercial implementations are:
> >
> > - Allegro CL (Windows, Unix, I think Mac soon)
> > - LispWorks (Windows, Unix)
> > - Corman Lisp (Windows)
> > - Macintosh Common Lisp (Mac)
> >
> > All of these compile to native code. The major open-source
implementations are:
> >
> > - CMUCL (Unix)
> > - SBCL (Unix)
> > - CLISP (Unix, Windows, Mac, others)
> ...
>
> is there a graphical (some kind of table) overview of those tools?
Try www.alu.org for list like that, don't know if it is a table or not...
--
Coby Beck
(remove #\Space "coby 101 @ bigpond . com")
Coby Beck wrote:
> "ilias" <·······@pontos.net> wrote in message
> ·····················@pontos.net...
...
>>is there a graphical (some kind of table) overview of those tools?
>
>
> Try www.alu.org for list like that, don't know if it is a table or not...
>
http://www.alu.org/table/systems.htm
may out of date
(last update: $Date: 2001/08/21 20:13:24 $ )
"ilias" <·······@pontos.net> wrote in message
·····················@pontos.net...
> Coby Beck wrote:
> > "ilias" <·······@pontos.net> wrote in message
> > ·····················@pontos.net...
> ...
>
> >>is there a graphical (some kind of table) overview of those tools?
> > Try www.alu.org for list like that, don't know if it is a table or
not...
>
> http://www.alu.org/table/systems.htm
>
> may out of date
> (last update: $Date: 2001/08/21 20:13:24 $ )
I'm sure the information is still quite current. It is a very mature
language and things don't move as fast as Java for example.
--
Coby Beck
(remove #\Space "coby 101 @ bigpond . com")
Thomas F. Burdick wrote:
> ilias <·······@pontos.net> writes:
>
>
>>I need (language, tools, vendor):
>>LANGUAGE
>>- Object-orientation
>>- consistent straight-through design of the language
>>- A language-core, that can be extended & modified
>>- those extensions must be supported by the debuggers & other tools
>
>
> These ar some of Common Lisp's strong points.
i need something like a graphical overwiew, starting with
- a *graphical* 'this is LISP' that raises interest.
- a graphical explanations of basic concepts (++interest).
- charts with tools-comparision, technology-binding-overwiew and so on.
decision-makers must be attracted by *simple* material.
going deeper & deeper (but with much graphics & diagrams)
can someone point me to such a material?
(when going deeper into the language details, the materials can be of
course more complex)
Centuries ago, Nostradamus foresaw when ilias <·······@pontos.net> would write:
> Thomas F. Burdick wrote:
>> ilias <·······@pontos.net> writes:
>>
>>>I need (language, tools, vendor):
>>>LANGUAGE
>>>- Object-orientation
>>>- consistent straight-through design of the language
>>>- A language-core, that can be extended & modified
>>>- those extensions must be supported by the debuggers & other tools
> >
> >
> > These ar some of Common Lisp's strong points.
>
> i need something like a graphical overwiew, starting with
> - a *graphical* 'this is LISP' that raises interest.
> - a graphical explanations of basic concepts (++interest).
> - charts with tools-comparision, technology-binding-overwiew and so on.
>
> decision-makers must be attracted by *simple* material.
>
> going deeper & deeper (but with much graphics & diagrams)
>
> can someone point me to such a material?
>
> (when going deeper into the language details, the materials can be of
> course more complex)
Are you prepared to pay for it?
"If you want to talk with some experts about something, go to the bar
where they hang out, buy a round of beers, and they'll surely talk
your ear off, leaving you wiser than before.
If you, a stranger, show up at the bar, walk up to the table, and ask
them to fax you a position paper, they'll tell you to call their
office in the morning and ask for a rate sheet." -- Miguel Cruz
If you're interested in a "white paper," you might look to download
whatever is available at <http://www.franz.com/>. Or if you don't
find something adequate, feel free to pay a retainer, and someone will
doubtless be willing to write something up.
But if you, a stranger, show up at the bar, and demand position
papers, don't be surprised if you get told that you should ask for a
rate sheet for some consulting work.
--
(reverse (concatenate 'string ··········@" "enworbbc"))
http://www.ntlug.org/~cbbrowne/emacs.html
linux: the choice of a GNU generation
(···@cis.ufl.edu put this on Tshirts in '93)
From: ilias
Subject: Re: LISP sounds interesting! Where can i read-in??
Date:
Message-ID: <3D557B38.8090202@pontos.net>
Christopher Browne wrote:
> Centuries ago, Nostradamus foresaw when ilias <·······@pontos.net> would write:
>
>>Thomas F. Burdick wrote:
>>
>>>ilias <·······@pontos.net> writes:
>>>
>>>
>>>>I need (language, tools, vendor):
>>>>LANGUAGE
>>>>- Object-orientation
>>>>- consistent straight-through design of the language
>>>>- A language-core, that can be extended & modified
>>>>- those extensions must be supported by the debuggers & other tools
>>>
>> >
>> >
>> > These ar some of Common Lisp's strong points.
>>
>>i need something like a graphical overwiew, starting with
>>- a *graphical* 'this is LISP' that raises interest.
>>- a graphical explanations of basic concepts (++interest).
>>- charts with tools-comparision, technology-binding-overwiew and so on.
>>
>>decision-makers must be attracted by *simple* material.
>>
>>going deeper & deeper (but with much graphics & diagrams)
>>
>>can someone point me to such a material?
>>
>>(when going deeper into the language details, the materials can be of
>>course more complex)
>
>
> Are you prepared to pay for it?
no.
> "If you want to talk with some experts about something, go to the bar
> where they hang out, buy a round of beers, and they'll surely talk
> your ear off, leaving you wiser than before.
>
> If you, a stranger, show up at the bar, walk up to the table, and ask
> them to fax you a position paper, they'll tell you to call their
> office in the morning and ask for a rate sheet." -- Miguel Cruz
i don't know who is "Miguel Cruz"
what he says, does not 'fit' to me.
i don't drink beer.
> If you're interested in a "white paper," you might look to download
> whatever is available at <http://www.franz.com/>.
www.franz.com, i'll take a look on that.
> Or if you don't
> find something adequate, feel free to pay a retainer, and someone will
> doubtless be willing to write something up.
so, you tell me the only information-source for LISP is "www.franz.com" ?
i think you are wrong.
> But if you, a stranger, show up at the bar, and demand position
> papers, don't be surprised if you get told that you should ask for a
> rate sheet for some consulting work.
no product of a human brain surprises me.
ilias wrote:
>> "If you want to talk with some experts about something, go to the bar
>> where they hang out, buy a round of beers, and they'll surely talk
>> your ear off, leaving you wiser than before.
>>
>> If you, a stranger, show up at the bar, walk up to the table, and ask
>> them to fax you a position paper, they'll tell you to call their
>> office in the morning and ask for a rate sheet." -- Miguel Cruz
>
> i don't know who is "Miguel Cruz"
>
> what he says, does not 'fit' to me.
>
> i don't drink beer.
...
What? This has nothing to do with beer.
--
bd has lost all his data - donate your bits to the bd_'s harddrive
restoration drive! One free campaign pin per bit bucket!
bd wrote:
> ilias wrote:
>
>
>>>"If you want to talk with some experts about something, go to the bar
>>>where they hang out, buy a round of beers, and they'll surely talk
>>>your ear off, leaving you wiser than before.
>>>
>>>If you, a stranger, show up at the bar, walk up to the table, and ask
>>>them to fax you a position paper, they'll tell you to call their
>>>office in the morning and ask for a rate sheet." -- Miguel Cruz
>>
>>i don't know who is "Miguel Cruz"
>>
>>what he says, does not 'fit' to me.
>>
>>i don't drink beer.
>
>
> ...
>
> What? This has nothing to do with beer.
>
context switch.
or (if you prefere)
switch context.
me, as an expert, would not be influenced by beer.
as i don't drink beer.
replace 'beer' by 'gifts'.
replace 'drink' by 'accepct'.
(clarification: gifts in the pricing region of beer)
ilias <·······@pontos.net> wrote:
> Christopher Browne wrote:
>> Centuries ago, Nostradamus foresaw when ilias <·······@pontos.net> would write:
>>
>>>Thomas F. Burdick wrote:
>>>
>>>>ilias <·······@pontos.net> writes:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>I need (language, tools, vendor):
>>>>>LANGUAGE
>>>>>- Object-orientation
>>>>>- consistent straight-through design of the language
>>>>>- A language-core, that can be extended & modified
>>>>>- those extensions must be supported by the debuggers & other tools
>>>>
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > These ar some of Common Lisp's strong points.
>>>
>>>i need something like a graphical overwiew, starting with
>>>- a *graphical* 'this is LISP' that raises interest.
>>>- a graphical explanations of basic concepts (++interest).
>>>- charts with tools-comparision, technology-binding-overwiew and so on.
>>>
>>>decision-makers must be attracted by *simple* material.
>>>
>>>going deeper & deeper (but with much graphics & diagrams)
>>>
>>>can someone point me to such a material?
>>>
>>>(when going deeper into the language details, the materials can be of
>>>course more complex)
>> Are you prepared to pay for it?
>
> no.
Then be satisfied with what you get.
>> "If you want to talk with some experts about something, go to the bar
>> where they hang out, buy a round of beers, and they'll surely talk
>> your ear off, leaving you wiser than before.
>> If you, a stranger, show up at the bar, walk up to the table, and ask
>> them to fax you a position paper, they'll tell you to call their
>> office in the morning and ask for a rate sheet." -- Miguel Cruz
>
> i don't know who is "Miguel Cruz"
>
> what he says, does not 'fit' to me.
>
> i don't drink beer.
Nor do I.
If all you noticed there was the beer, you didn't even _notice_ the
point.
>> If you're interested in a "white paper," you might look to download
>> whatever is available at <http://www.franz.com/>.
>
> www.franz.com, i'll take a look on that.
>
>> Or if you don't find something adequate, feel free to pay a
>> retainer, and someone will doubtless be willing to write something
>> up.
>
> so, you tell me the only information-source for LISP is "www.franz.com" ?
>
> i think you are wrong.
Franz has employees that are likely paid to do things like generating
"position papers," so they are a plausible source for the sort of
marketing material that you seem to be asking for.
If they haven't anything satisfactory, then you'll either have to pay
someone to produce what you want, or do without.
--
(concatenate 'string "cbbrowne" ·@cbbrowne.com")
http://www3.sympatico.ca/cbbrowne/languages.html
"Who needs perl when you can write dc and sokoban in sed?"
-- Peter S Tillier
From: ilias
Subject: Re: LISP sounds interesting! Where can i read-in??
Date:
Message-ID: <3D5664C0.3050206@pontos.net>
Christopher Browne wrote:
> ilias <·······@pontos.net> wrote:
...
>>>>(when going deeper into the language details, the materials can be of
>>>>course more complex)
>>>
>>>Are you prepared to pay for it?
>>
>>no.
>
> Then be satisfied with what you get.
'be'
imperative.
source: 'Christopher Browne' (*one* of the *n* possible sources for
information).
'Then be satisfied with what you get'
rejected.
>>>"If you want to talk with some experts about something, go to the bar
>>>where they hang out, buy a round of beers, and they'll surely talk
>>>your ear off, leaving you wiser than before.
>>>If you, a stranger, show up at the bar, walk up to the table, and ask
>>>them to fax you a position paper, they'll tell you to call their
>>>office in the morning and ask for a rate sheet." -- Miguel Cruz
>>
>>i don't know who is "Miguel Cruz"
>>
>>what he says, does not 'fit' to me.
>>
>>i don't drink beer.
>
> Nor do I.
>
> If all you noticed there was the beer, you didn't even _notice_ the
> point.
"i don't drink beer" - analisys (already written to 'bd' )
context switch.
or (if you prefere)
switch context.
me, as an expert, would not be influenced by beer.
as i don't drink beer.
replace 'beer' by 'gifts'.
replace 'drink' by 'accepct'.
(clarification: gifts in the pricing region of beer)
>>>If you're interested in a "white paper," you might look to download
>>>whatever is available at <http://www.franz.com/>.
>>
>>www.franz.com, i'll take a look on that.
>>
>>
>>>Or if you don't find something adequate, feel free to pay a
>>>retainer, and someone will doubtless be willing to write something
>>>up.
>>
>>so, you tell me the only information-source for LISP is "www.franz.com" ?
>>
>>i think you are wrong.
>
> Franz has employees that are likely paid to do things like generating
> "position papers," so they are a plausible source for the sort of
> marketing material that you seem to be asking for.
"plausible source" / "only source".
multiple vendors / multiple "positions papers".
vendor-dependecy / precision of information
"sort of material" / interpretation.
i'm now sure that you are wrong.
> If they haven't anything satisfactory, then you'll either have to pay
> someone to produce what you want, or do without.
wrong conclusion.
but i will not analyze it to you...
except... you pay me.
A long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away, ilias <·······@pontos.net> wrote:
> (clarification: gifts in the pricing region of beer)
If you think it was about beer, or "receiving gifts," then you are
sorely mistaken.
As for the rest of it, you seem to be misunderstanding the rest of it
in about the same way.
Plonk!
--
(reverse (concatenate 'string ····················@" "454aa"))
http://cbbrowne.com/info/advocacy.html
"Besides, I think [Slackware] sounds better than 'Microsoft,' don't
you?" -- Patrick Volkerding
but i know that your behaiviour is not very friendly.
Christopher Browne wrote:
> A long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away, ilias <·······@pontos.net> wrote:
please be so kindly to avoid phrases like this when quoting messages.
It can be misleading (and irritating) to readers and thus it is not
friendly.
>
>>(clarification: gifts in the pricing region of beer)
> If you think it was about beer, or "receiving gifts," then you are
> sorely mistaken.
>
> As for the rest of it, you seem to be misunderstanding the rest of it
> in about the same way.
>
> Plonk!
i understand you.
i understand me.
simply different philosophies.
go your way as i go my.
On Sun, 11 Aug 2002 17:16:11 +0300, ilias <·······@pontos.net> wrote:
>but i know that your behaiviour is not very friendly.
As I told you how you would be received here.
Prepare for more.
>Christopher Browne wrote:
>>
>> Plonk!
>
You do not understand what Plonk means. It means that
he has added you to his killfile. That means he will
see another of your posts unless:
1) He lets the killfile expire.
2) He reads a quote of your post in another post.
3) You change enough of your address send-from header or
whatever to get past his filter. Sometimes people do this sort
of thing for "one last" message, but to do it often is considered
not only bad manners but is considered so by ISPs which may
cancel your account ( a fair warning ).
Thaddeus L Olczyk <······@interaccess.com> writes:
What on earth are you still doing here? If you've menat what you've
said here and in other groups (at least c.l.smalltalk), you're no
longer interested in Lisp and consider this a hostile, useless forum.
So why are you still here?
(Oh wait, I know this one, you're trolling so as to guarantee a low
signal-noise ratio)
--
/|_ .-----------------------.
,' .\ / | No to Imperialist war |
,--' _,' | Wage class war! |
/ / `-----------------------'
( -. |
| ) |
(`-. '--.)
`. )----'
On 11 Aug 2002 09:44:12 -0700, ···@conquest.OCF.Berkeley.EDU (Thomas
F. Burdick) wrote:
>Thaddeus L Olczyk <······@interaccess.com> writes:
>
>What on earth are you still doing here? If you've menat what you've
>said here and in other groups (at least c.l.smalltalk), you're no
>longer interested in Lisp and consider this a hostile, useless forum.
>So why are you still here?
>
>(Oh wait, I know this one, you're trolling so as to guarantee a low
>signal-noise ratio)
Ilias is here because of Lisp trolls in cls. He is a relative newbie
who went asking for information in cls. While there was some friction
I believe he basically got his answers.
Since I was in part involved with these trolls, I feel some
responsibility for this newbie. Like explaining what a killfile is.
That way he doesn't get overwhelmed by the nastiness that is cll.
In article <··································@4ax.com>, Thaddeus L
Olczyk wrote:
> On Sun, 11 Aug 2002 17:16:11 +0300, ilias <·······@pontos.net> wrote:
>
>>but i know that your behaiviour is not very friendly.
> As I told you how you would be received here.
> Prepare for more.
Ah, birds of a feather.
"Kaz Kylheku" <···@ashi.footprints.net> wrote in message
·················@luna.vcn.bc.ca...
> In article <··································@4ax.com>, Thaddeus L
> Olczyk wrote:
> > On Sun, 11 Aug 2002 17:16:11 +0300, ilias <·······@pontos.net> wrote:
> >
> >>but i know that your behaiviour is not very friendly.
> > As I told you how you would be received here.
> > Prepare for more.
>
> Ah, birds of a feather.
Thaddeus L Olczyk is a hostile trouble maker and a hypocrite for reading and
posting in a forum he claims to have only contempt for. ilias is just
asking questions and handling the ridiculously nasty responses in a very
calm and entertaining way.
If the questions or attitudes a newcomer displays rub you (editorial you,
not Kaz you) the wrong way just butt out of the thread. All of this
self-righteous hand-slapping is really a pain to witness.
Thadeus and ilias have nothing in common in style or content.
--
Coby Beck
(remove #\Space "coby 101 @ bigpond . com")
Thaddeus L Olczyk wrote:
> On Sun, 11 Aug 2002 17:16:11 +0300, ilias <·······@pontos.net> wrote:
>
>
>>but i know that your behaiviour is not very friendly.
>
> As I told you how you would be received here.
> Prepare for more.
>
>
>
>>Christopher Browne wrote:
>>
>>>Plonk!
>>
> You do not understand what Plonk means. It means that
> he has added you to his killfile. That means he will
> see another of your posts unless:
> 1) He lets the killfile expire.
> 2) He reads a quote of your post in another post.
> 3) You change enough of your address send-from header or
> whatever to get past his filter. Sometimes people do this sort
> of thing for "one last" message, but to do it often is considered
> not only bad manners but is considered so by ISPs which may
> cancel your account ( a fair warning ).
thank you for the information.
'Plonk' is a sign o weakness.
I don't know 'Christopher Browne', but surely his egoism is stronger
than his logic.
I'm not interested to pass his filters.
ilias wrote:
> Thaddeus L Olczyk wrote:
>> On Sun, 11 Aug 2002 17:16:11 +0300, ilias <·······@pontos.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>but i know that your behaiviour is not very friendly.
>>
>> As I told you how you would be received here.
>> Prepare for more.
>>
>>
>>
>>>Christopher Browne wrote:
>>>
>>>>Plonk!
>>>
>> You do not understand what Plonk means. It means that
>> he has added you to his killfile. That means he will
>> see another of your posts unless:
>> 1) He lets the killfile expire.
>> 2) He reads a quote of your post in another post.
>> 3) You change enough of your address send-from header or
>> whatever to get past his filter. Sometimes people do this sort
>> of thing for "one last" message, but to do it often is considered
>> not only bad manners but is considered so by ISPs which may
>> cancel your account ( a fair warning ).
>
> thank you for the information.
>
> 'Plonk' is a sign o weakness.
Not quite.
From Jargon File (4.2.3, 23 NOV 2000) [jargon]:
plonk excl.,vt. The sound a newbie makes as he falls to the bottom of a
kill file. While it originated in the newsgroup talk.bizarre, this term
(usually written "*plonk*") is now widespread on Usenet as a form of
public ridicule.
--
bd has lost all his data - donate your bits to the bd_'s harddrive
restoration drive! One free campaign pin per bit bucket!
bd wrote:
> ilias wrote:
>
>
>>Thaddeus L Olczyk wrote:
>>
>>>On Sun, 11 Aug 2002 17:16:11 +0300, ilias <·······@pontos.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>but i know that your behaiviour is not very friendly.
>>>
>>>As I told you how you would be received here.
>>>Prepare for more.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Christopher Browne wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Plonk!
>>>>
>>>You do not understand what Plonk means. It means that
>>>he has added you to his killfile. That means he will
>>>see another of your posts unless:
>>>1) He lets the killfile expire.
>>>2) He reads a quote of your post in another post.
>>>3) You change enough of your address send-from header or
>>> whatever to get past his filter. Sometimes people do this sort
>>> of thing for "one last" message, but to do it often is considered
>>> not only bad manners but is considered so by ISPs which may
>>> cancel your account ( a fair warning ).
>>
>>thank you for the information.
>>
>>'Plonk' is a sign o weakness.
>
>
> Not quite.
>
> From Jargon File (4.2.3, 23 NOV 2000) [jargon]:
>
> plonk excl.,vt. The sound a newbie makes as he falls to the bottom of a
> kill file. While it originated in the newsgroup talk.bizarre, this term
> (usually written "*plonk*") is now widespread on Usenet as a form of
> public ridicule.
>
From ···@xahlee.org (just arrived in another thread
###################################################################
--- cut --- (^_^) --- here --- (^_^) --- cut --- (^_^) --- here ---
Killfile Considered Harmful
2000-02, by Xah Lee with acknowledgement to Edsger W. Dijkstra
[1930-2002]
In newsgroups, killfile is a playful word meaning that the poster has
placed someone in a blacklist of authors, where their postings will be
automatically hidden from view in their newsreader. Such functionality
of newsreaders originated in unix. In the early 90s or before, it used
to be referred to as "sending someone into /dev/null", because
'/dev/null' can be used as a way for deleting email program outputs.
The killfile behavior, is simply put: "sweep-under-the-rug",
"bury-head-in-sand" kind of behavior. Imagine that in a gathering
where if everyone totally ignores other's voices except their own
kind, then what cacophony would result? Similarly, if we ignore the
problem of crime by simply using larger locks for our own doors, what
consequence would result?
We are all human beings. Our surroundings are our organs and affects
us dearly. In newsgroups, inevitably there will be certain individuals
with foul breath at times. Killfile mechanism is a very good feature
to battle such annoyances. This is not a reason for falling for the
convenience of blocking your ears from dissenting voices or the
nonconformists.
The worst thing i hate about it, is the broadcasting of someone being
killfiled. Oftentimes the sole content of a message is "You've been
killfiled". WHAT GOOD DOES IT DO TO THE COMMUNITY BY SUCH
ANNOUNCEMENT? Is it a warning system for fellow readers to prepare to
follow suit? Or is it a stupid self-righteous act? In the course of an
unpleasant encountering, the killfilers feel the other party being
unworthy of further response but they don't want to be seen as
chickening out so they had to announce it as if saying: "Hello world:
you don't see a returning 'fuck you' from me because _I_ am _smarter_
and took a step ahead of my antagonist and covered my ears, not
because he is correct or anything like that.". Pride is a human
nature, but unqualified conceit is despicable.
A second motivation for announcing killfile is more explicitly
juvenile. Killfile has several variant names:
"You've been killfiled." (etymology anyone?)
"plonk" (sound of falling object)
"I've send you to /dev/null" (unixism)
and creativity does not seems to cease there, e.g. in comp.lang.lisp:
> (plonk 'xah)
or signatures that reads
"in /dev/null, they can't hear you scream."
The reason of these playful variations is precisely literary
folly. The utterer delights in its use since most are wanting of
genuine literary artistry. This adds to the fashion of killfile and
its broadcasting.
Killfile behavior and broadcasting have another curious trait: No
burden of commitment. One cannot really tell if the person really did
the killfile. The decision to make a killfile cry in public does not
carry any weight of responsibility as compared to making a claim,
stating a "fact", or expression an opinion. It is simply a variation
of "fuck you". This too, contributed to its uncontrolled popularity.
#
(in the smalltalk newsgroup, i got this info)
Thomas F. Burdick wrote:
...
"A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation"
<http://www-2.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/>, or
or
"Basic Lisp Techniques"
<http://www.franz.com/resources/educational_resources/cooper.book.pdf>
...
On Sun, 11 Aug 2002 16:29:56 +0300, ilias <·······@pontos.net> wrote:
>(in the smalltalk newsgroup, i got this info)
>
>Thomas F. Burdick wrote:
>...
>"A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation"
> <http://www-2.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/>, or
>or
>
>"Basic Lisp Techniques"
> <http://www.franz.com/resources/educational_resources/cooper.book.pdf>
>
>...
I wish you had included a part ot my reply where I point out that what
these books teach as Lisp programming is not likely what you will use.
Thaddeus L Olczyk wrote:
> On Sun, 11 Aug 2002 16:29:56 +0300, ilias <·······@pontos.net> wrote:
>
>
>>(in the smalltalk newsgroup, i got this info)
>>
>>Thomas F. Burdick wrote:
>>...
>>"A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation"
>> <http://www-2.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/>, or
>>or
>>
>>"Basic Lisp Techniques"
>> <http://www.franz.com/resources/educational_resources/cooper.book.pdf>
>>
>>...
>
> I wish you had included a part ot my reply where I point out that what
> these books teach as Lisp programming is not likely what you will use.
i don't know what i will use.
i quickly overviewed "Basic Lisp Techniques", an the start with
graphical representations.
during reading i'll find out if and how i can use this language for
creating the systems i've in my mind.
but so little time.
From: Kaz Kylheku
Subject: Re: LISP sounds interesting! Where can i read-in??
Date:
Message-ID: <aj649d$avq$2@luna.vcn.bc.ca>
In article <················@pontos.net>, ilias wrote:
> > These ar some of Common Lisp's strong points.
>
> i need something like a graphical overwiew, starting with
Why, do you have to create a presentation for idiots, or are you
illiterate?
On Sun, 11 Aug 2002 16:44:30 +0000 (UTC), Kaz Kylheku
<···@ashi.footprints.net> wrote:
>In article <················@pontos.net>, ilias wrote:
>> > These ar some of Common Lisp's strong points.
>>
>> i need something like a graphical overwiew, starting with
>
>Why, do you have to create a presentation for idiots, or are you
>illiterate?
And so begins round two...
From: ilias
Subject: Re: LISP sounds interesting! Where can i read-in??
Date:
Message-ID: <3D56C085.1020101@pontos.net>
Kaz Kylheku wrote:
> In article <················@pontos.net>, ilias wrote:
>
>>>These ar some of Common Lisp's strong points.
>>
>>i need something like a graphical overwiew, starting with
>
>
> Why, do you have to create a presentation for idiots, or are you
> illiterate?
an idiot (low ability to process complex information) would not be able
to excract the essence of any representation about LISP.
know, i wrote this sentence fully myself and without assistance.
i let you decide if i'm illiterate or not.
as i've decided, if you're u are unfriendly or not.
ilias wrote:
> Kaz Kylheku wrote:
>> In article <················@pontos.net>, ilias wrote:
>>
>>>>These ar some of Common Lisp's strong points.
>>>
>>>i need something like a graphical overwiew, starting with
>>
>>
>> Why, do you have to create a presentation for idiots, or are you
>> illiterate?
>
> an idiot (low ability to process complex information) would not be able
> to excract the essence of any representation about LISP.
>
> know, i wrote this sentence fully myself and without assistance.
>
> i let you decide if i'm illiterate or not.
You may want to reconsider that. You may not be illiterate, but it is
obvious you do not speak English as a first language. Or you're using
Babelfish.
--
bd has lost all his data - donate your bits to the bd_'s harddrive
restoration drive! One free campaign pin per bit bucket!
From: ilias
Subject: Re: LISP sounds interesting! Where can i read-in??
Date:
Message-ID: <3D56ED18.4060002@pontos.net>
bd wrote:
> ilias wrote:
>
>
>>Kaz Kylheku wrote:
>>
>>>In article <················@pontos.net>, ilias wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>>These ar some of Common Lisp's strong points.
>>>>
>>>>i need something like a graphical overwiew, starting with
>>>
>>>
>>>Why, do you have to create a presentation for idiots, or are you
>>>illiterate?
>>
>>an idiot (low ability to process complex information) would not be able
>>to excract the essence of any representation about LISP.
>>
>>know, i wrote this sentence fully myself and without assistance.
>>
>>i let you decide if i'm illiterate or not.
>
>
> You may want to reconsider that. You may not be illiterate, but it is
> obvious you do not speak English as a first language. Or you're using
> Babelfish.
>
Not Babelfish.
Fuzzlish.
ilias wrote:
> bd wrote:
>> ilias wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Kaz Kylheku wrote:
>>>
>>>>In article <················@pontos.net>, ilias wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>These ar some of Common Lisp's strong points.
>>>>>
>>>>>i need something like a graphical overwiew, starting with
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Why, do you have to create a presentation for idiots, or are you
>>>>illiterate?
>>>
>>>an idiot (low ability to process complex information) would not be able
>>>to excract the essence of any representation about LISP.
>>>
>>>know, i wrote this sentence fully myself and without assistance.
>>>
>>>i let you decide if i'm illiterate or not.
>>
>>
>> You may want to reconsider that. You may not be illiterate, but it is
>> obvious you do not speak English as a first language. Or you're using
>> Babelfish.
>>
>
> Not Babelfish.
>
> Fuzzlish.
What?
--
bd has lost all his data - donate your bits to the bd_'s harddrive
restoration drive! One free campaign pin per bit bucket!
bd wrote:
> ilias wrote:
>
>>bd wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>You may want to reconsider that. You may not be illiterate, but it is
>>>obvious you do not speak English as a first language. Or you're using
>>>Babelfish.
>>>
>>
>>Not Babelfish.
>>
>>Fuzzlish.
>
>
> What?
Babelfish - explain me the word, please!
ilias graced us by uttering:
[ snip ]
> Babelfish - explain me the word, please!
I believe its a reference to a creature from the Douglas Adams novel
"The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy", where the characters merely
placed babelfish in their ears and the fish automatically converted
whatever language it heard into brainwaves compatible with the host,
thsu making the Babelfish the single most useful translating tool in
existence.
The use of the word "Babel" is a reference to the story of
the Tower of Babel in the Old Testament of the Christian Bible where
people built a high tower with the ambitious goal of reaching Heaven.
God/Yahweh/Jehovah/G-d didn't like this very much and caused the men to
speak in different languages, splintering the project due to no
communication.
In Adams' book, mankind uses the Babelfish to disprove the existence of
God. I'd try to explain, but you'd be much better off reading it for
yourself.
(Douglas Adams' books are meant to be humorous! Any objections should
be forwarded to the late author's copyright holder. ;)
HTH
Tim Hammerquist
--
$ echo espresso > /dev/coffee
ilias wrote:
> bd wrote:
>> ilias wrote:
>>
>>>bd wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>You may want to reconsider that. You may not be illiterate, but it is
>>>>obvious you do not speak English as a first language. Or you're using
>>>>Babelfish.
>>>>
>>>
>>>Not Babelfish.
>>>
>>>Fuzzlish.
>>
>>
>> What?
>
> Babelfish - explain me the word, please!
http://babelfish.altavista.com
Notorious for making near-unreadable translations.
What's fuzzlish?
--
bd has lost all his data - donate your bits to the bd_'s harddrive
restoration drive! One free campaign pin per bit bucket!
bd wrote:
> ilias wrote:
>
>
>>bd wrote:
>>
>>>ilias wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>bd wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>You may want to reconsider that. You may not be illiterate, but it is
>>>>>obvious you do not speak English as a first language. Or you're using
>>>>>Babelfish.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Not Babelfish.
>>>>
>>>>Fuzzlish.
>>>
>>>
>>>What?
>>
>>Babelfish - explain me the word, please!
>
>
> http://babelfish.altavista.com
>
> Notorious for making near-unreadable translations.
>
> What's fuzzlish?
>
FUZZY ENGLISH. affected by my native language "Greek" and my secondary
language "German". I hunted this here through BABELFISH.
it's really funny!!! but be honest: my Fuzzlish is better!!!
i go to get some sleep.
people make me crazy today in c.l.l & c.l.s !
have a good night/day!
In article <················@pontos.net>, ilias wrote:
> Babelfish - explain me the word, please!
Spoonfeed me again, and then burp me and change my diapers!
I don't know how to use a search engine!
ilias wrote:
> But! May LISP helps ???
Probably not. You seem to have many preconceptions about how perfect a
language can be and how proper programming is to be done. Why, for
instance, would you insist on UML models for a system whose object models
are much more powerful than that used by UML? Why do you insist on
graphical modeling at all as, in most cases, it tends to just become more
dead trees - inconsistent with the final system - in the end?
As for inconsistencies, there are many in all languages. If you really
believe that there are "perfect languages", to quote John Lenon, "You
better free your mind instead..."
Now all that having been said, Lisp tends to answer the other feature issues
you asked for, more or less. It's not so "simple" to interface with other
languages (though it does a pretty good job) and UML is off the radar
screen because UML doesn't model a very wide set of OO concepts (e.g.,
multi-methods, meta-object operations, etc.). Other than that, Lisp and
its vendors has what you want.
But I do warn you - it's not an easy language to wrap your head around. You
need to change your way of thinking about programs and data and control and
the way they all interact to really use Lisp to its full advantage. This
is especially true for those who come from the C/C++/Java school of
programming with the languages extraordianrily limited capabilities in
these areas having limited their view of programming.
So, consider carefully. If you ware willing to change your way of thinking
about programming, Lisp can be a very useful too for you. Otherwise, as I
said in the beginning, "probably not".
faa
Frank A. Adrian wrote:
> ilias wrote:
>
>>But! May LISP helps ???
>
> Probably not. You seem to have many preconceptions about how perfect a
...
> As for inconsistencies, there are many in all languages. If you really
> believe that there are "perfect languages", to quote John Lenon, "You
> better free your mind instead..."
John Lenon. Singer. Beetles. His mind was 'freed' by someone who shoot him.
universe was build by "perfect language".
i believe so.
don't know.
may 'freeing my mind' will let me know.
> Now all that having been said, Lisp tends to answer the other feature issues
...