I'm just starting to learn CL, and as a first project want do
something web-based, in the hope that what I learn can be applied to
'real' websites in the future. Ideally, I'd like to forget about
Perl/cgi and Java servlets at some point, since theoretically I should
be able to do everything (server-side) I need to do with LISP, but at
a higher level.
I've read Paul Graham's paper on how he implemented Viaweb/Yahoo!
Stores in LISP, but it's short on the nitty-gritty details i.e. code,
and I'm still a little lost as to how to proceed in a practical way.
Also, I'm not sure whether this is really a reasonable thing to want
to do - other than the Viaweb site, I can't really find any examples
of real-world websites implemented in LISP, so while it may be an
interesting learning exercise, will it only be just that?
Can anyone point to some sites implemented solely or at least mainly
in CL? How about some good code?
Oh, and using only free CL implementations, please.
From: Richard Fateman
Subject: Re: Examples of/code examples for websites run on CL?
Date:
Message-ID: <3CAA237B.9020103@cs.berkeley.edu>
http://torte.cs.berkeley.edu:8010
is written entirely in lisp.
It is running in Allegro CL, but it could be
running in any of several other lisps. It is currently
running on a Sun Solaris system, but the same code
runs on HP-UX. Also, I expect, on windows.
However, your idea that you should start to learn CL
by writing a web site is, in my opinion, fairly misguided.
Why not buy Graham's book and do some of the exercises
there, first?
You don't learn to fly by noodling around in the cockpit
of a 747.
RJF
Pat Perkins wrote:
> I'm just starting to learn CL, and as a first project want do
> something web-based, in the hope that what I learn can be applied to
> 'real' websites in the future. Ideally, I'd like to forget about
> Perl/cgi and Java servlets at some point, since theoretically I should
> be able to do everything (server-side) I need to do with LISP, but at
> a higher level.
>
> I've read Paul Graham's paper on how he implemented Viaweb/Yahoo!
> Stores in LISP, but it's short on the nitty-gritty details i.e. code,
> and I'm still a little lost as to how to proceed in a practical way.
>
> Also, I'm not sure whether this is really a reasonable thing to want
> to do - other than the Viaweb site, I can't really find any examples
> of real-world websites implemented in LISP, so while it may be an
> interesting learning exercise, will it only be just that?
>
> Can anyone point to some sites implemented solely or at least mainly
> in CL? How about some good code?
>
> Oh, and using only free CL implementations, please.
>
From: Richard Fateman
Subject: Re: Examples of/code examples for websites run on CL? ooops
Date:
Message-ID: <3CAA23E8.2040706@cs.berkeley.edu>
Richard Fateman wrote:
make that ...
http://torte.cs.berkeley.edu:8010/tilu
Richard Fateman <·······@cs.berkeley.edu> writes:
> However, your idea that you should start to learn CL
> by writing a web site is, in my opinion, fairly misguided.
> Why not buy Graham's book and do some of the exercises
> there, first?
Different people learn best in different ways. I can quite believe
that some people will be more motivated to continue with Lisp if they
can produce directly useful software as they learn, and an HTML
interface is one of the easiest ways to get started - especially if
you're using one of the free-as-in-libre setups which tend not to have
much support for traditional GUIs.
The list at http://ww.telent.net/cliki/Web includes several projects
which do or otherwise help with HTTP serving. And the server it's
hosted on is running one of them.
-dan
--
http://ww.telent.net/cliki/ - Link farm for free CL-on-Unix resources
Richard Fateman <·······@cs.berkeley.edu> wrote in message news:<················@cs.berkeley.edu>...
> http://torte.cs.berkeley.edu:8010
> is written entirely in lisp.
> It is running in Allegro CL, but it could be
> running in any of several other lisps. It is currently
> running on a Sun Solaris system, but the same code
> runs on HP-UX. Also, I expect, on windows.
>
> However, your idea that you should start to learn CL
> by writing a web site is, in my opinion, fairly misguided.
> Why not buy Graham's book and do some of the exercises
> there, first?
>
> You don't learn to fly by noodling around in the cockpit
> of a 747.
>
Well, my hope was that the mechanical details of generating web pages
would be nicely separated from the code that actually generates the
content, which might indeed be examples from a book. It's also a
question of motivation - like most students, doing the exercises in a
book is a lot less interesting than doing something perceived as
useful, however that might be.
I hope this isn't at the same level as flying a 747 (though from what
I understand flying a 747 isn't all that hard actually ;-)
> RJF
>
> Pat Perkins wrote:
>
> > I'm just starting to learn CL, and as a first project want do
> > something web-based, in the hope that what I learn can be applied to
> > 'real' websites in the future. Ideally, I'd like to forget about
> > Perl/cgi and Java servlets at some point, since theoretically I should
> > be able to do everything (server-side) I need to do with LISP, but at
> > a higher level.
> >
> > I've read Paul Graham's paper on how he implemented Viaweb/Yahoo!
> > Stores in LISP, but it's short on the nitty-gritty details i.e. code,
> > and I'm still a little lost as to how to proceed in a practical way.
> >
> > Also, I'm not sure whether this is really a reasonable thing to want
> > to do - other than the Viaweb site, I can't really find any examples
> > of real-world websites implemented in LISP, so while it may be an
> > interesting learning exercise, will it only be just that?
> >
> > Can anyone point to some sites implemented solely or at least mainly
> > in CL? How about some good code?
> >
> > Oh, and using only free CL implementations, please.
> >
From: Nils Goesche
Subject: Re: Examples of/code examples for websites run on CL?
Date:
Message-ID: <87elhxx2qc.fsf@darkstar.cartan>
···········@yahoo.com (Pat Perkins) writes:
> I'm just starting to learn CL, and as a first project want do
> something web-based, in the hope that what I learn can be applied to
> 'real' websites in the future. Ideally, I'd like to forget about
> Perl/cgi and Java servlets at some point, since theoretically I should
> be able to do everything (server-side) I need to do with LISP, but at
> a higher level.
Make sure to have a look at CL-HTTP:
http://www.ai.mit.edu/projects/iiip/doc/cl-http/home-page.html
> I've read Paul Graham's paper on how he implemented Viaweb/Yahoo!
> Stores in LISP, but it's short on the nitty-gritty details i.e. code,
> and I'm still a little lost as to how to proceed in a practical
> way.
I think some of the code is contained in one of his books, either
ANSI Common Lisp or On Lisp. Doesn't matter which one, you
should get both, anyway. I think On Lisp is available online
now, but you should already know some Common Lisp before reading
it, its subtitle is ``Advanced Techniques in Common Lisp'' or so.
> Also, I'm not sure whether this is really a reasonable thing to want
> to do - other than the Viaweb site, I can't really find any examples
> of real-world websites implemented in LISP, so while it may be an
> interesting learning exercise, will it only be just that?
If you really learn Lisp, it will be a very valuable tool for all
kinds of things. You can write pretty much everything in it. It
takes some time, though. I think you should better focus on
learning the language first, before attacking particular
problems, but YMMV, maybe it works fine for you that way.
> Can anyone point to some sites implemented solely or at least mainly
> in CL? How about some good code?
Don't know about that, sorry. Typically, people don't make a big
fuzz when they do anything in Lisp; there is not exactly any
``hype'' around it :-)
> Oh, and using only free CL implementations, please.
Why is that? Never mind, CMUCL or CLISP should work fine for
that, I guess.
Regards,
--
Nils Goesche
Ask not for whom the <CONTROL-G> tolls.
PGP key ID #xC66D6E6F
From: Nils Goesche
Subject: Re: Examples of/code examples for websites run on CL?
Date:
Message-ID: <87adslx29t.fsf@darkstar.cartan>
Nils Goesche <···@cartan.de> writes:
> > I've read Paul Graham's paper on how he implemented Viaweb/Yahoo!
> > Stores in LISP, but it's short on the nitty-gritty details i.e. code,
> > and I'm still a little lost as to how to proceed in a practical
> > way.
>
> I think some of the code is contained in one of his books, either
> ANSI Common Lisp or On Lisp. Doesn't matter which one, you
> should get both, anyway. I think On Lisp is available online
> now, but you should already know some Common Lisp before reading
> it, its subtitle is ``Advanced Techniques in Common Lisp'' or
> so.
Maybe I should add that although both books, especially On Lisp,
are great, some of his views are not shared by everyone; for
instance, he scares the reader away from both LOOP and CLOS. His
emphasis on functional programming is, on one side, good because
readers who have never done any functional programming will only
learn it by doing, but on the other side it's bad, because it
might plant an inadequate prejudice against other techniques into
the reader's mind. Be aware that he is not telling the whole
story, but there is no book I am aware of that does. Except the
HyperSpec, of course :-)
> > Also, I'm not sure whether this is really a reasonable thing to want
> > to do - other than the Viaweb site, I can't really find any examples
> > of real-world websites implemented in LISP, so while it may be an
> > interesting learning exercise, will it only be just that?
>
> If you really learn Lisp, it will be a very valuable tool for all
> kinds of things. You can write pretty much everything in it. It
> takes some time, though.
I meant to learn, not to write, hehe :-)
Regards,
--
Nils Goesche
Ask not for whom the <CONTROL-G> tolls.
PGP key ID #xC66D6E6F
Nils Goesche <···@cartan.de> wrote in message news:<··············@darkstar.cartan>...
> ···········@yahoo.com (Pat Perkins) writes:
>
> > I'm just starting to learn CL, and as a first project want do
> > something web-based, in the hope that what I learn can be applied to
> > 'real' websites in the future. Ideally, I'd like to forget about
> > Perl/cgi and Java servlets at some point, since theoretically I should
> > be able to do everything (server-side) I need to do with LISP, but at
> > a higher level.
>
> Make sure to have a look at CL-HTTP:
>
> http://www.ai.mit.edu/projects/iiip/doc/cl-http/home-page.html
>
> > I've read Paul Graham's paper on how he implemented Viaweb/Yahoo!
> > Stores in LISP, but it's short on the nitty-gritty details i.e. code,
> > and I'm still a little lost as to how to proceed in a practical
> > way.
>
> I think some of the code is contained in one of his books, either
> ANSI Common Lisp or On Lisp. Doesn't matter which one, you
> should get both, anyway. I think On Lisp is available online
> now, but you should already know some Common Lisp before reading
> it, its subtitle is ``Advanced Techniques in Common Lisp'' or so.
>
> > Also, I'm not sure whether this is really a reasonable thing to want
> > to do - other than the Viaweb site, I can't really find any examples
> > of real-world websites implemented in LISP, so while it may be an
> > interesting learning exercise, will it only be just that?
>
> If you really learn Lisp, it will be a very valuable tool for all
> kinds of things. You can write pretty much everything in it. It
> takes some time, though. I think you should better focus on
> learning the language first, before attacking particular
> problems, but YMMV, maybe it works fine for you that way.
>
Exactly my reason for wanting to learn Lisp.
> > Can anyone point to some sites implemented solely or at least mainly
> > in CL? How about some good code?
>
> Don't know about that, sorry. Typically, people don't make a big
> fuzz when they do anything in Lisp; there is not exactly any
> ``hype'' around it :-)
>
> > Oh, and using only free CL implementations, please.
>
> Why is that? Never mind, CMUCL or CLISP should work fine for
> that, I guess.
>
Simple. I'm a cheapskate. Really, though, at this point I'm strictly
a hobbyist and don't have the need or funds for a commercial version.
I want to see how far I can go with what's freely available. Also, I
guess I've been spoiled by the availability of pretty good free
compilers for other languages (C/Python/Perl). From what I've seen so
far, CMUCL and CLISP may be in that category (I'm using CLISP because
it has to fit on my old 80Meg 486/25 laptop, which it does nicely).
> Regards,
From: Duane Rettig
Subject: Re: Examples of/code examples for websites run on CL?
Date:
Message-ID: <4r8lw3ijw.fsf@beta.franz.com>
···········@yahoo.com (Pat Perkins) writes:
> > > Oh, and using only free CL implementations, please.
> >
> > Why is that? Never mind, CMUCL or CLISP should work fine for
> > that, I guess.
> >
>
> Simple. I'm a cheapskate. Really, though, at this point I'm strictly
> a hobbyist and don't have the need or funds for a commercial version.
> I want to see how far I can go with what's freely available. Also, I
> guess I've been spoiled by the availability of pretty good free
> compilers for other languages (C/Python/Perl). From what I've seen so
> far, CMUCL and CLISP may be in that category (I'm using CLISP because
> it has to fit on my old 80Meg 486/25 laptop, which it does nicely).
For the purpose you've stated, you have many other options.
See http://www.franz.com/downloads/ for example.
--
Duane Rettig Franz Inc. http://www.franz.com/ (www)
1995 University Ave Suite 275 Berkeley, CA 94704
Phone: (510) 548-3600; FAX: (510) 548-8253 ·····@Franz.COM (internet)
"Duane Rettig" <·····@franz.com> ha scritto nel messaggio ··················@beta.franz.com...
> ···········@yahoo.com (Pat Perkins) writes:
> > From what I've seen so
> > far, CMUCL and CLISP may be in that category (I'm using CLISP because
> > it has to fit on my old 80Meg 486/25 laptop, which it does nicely).
>
> For the purpose you've stated, you have many other options.
> See http://www.franz.com/downloads/ for example.
I think "80Meg" refers to the hard disk, not the RAM.
8-)
P.
"Pat Perkins" <···········@yahoo.com> wrote in message
·································@posting.google.com...
> Can anyone point to some sites implemented solely or at least mainly
> in CL? How about some good code?
www.hotdispatch.com is implemented entirely in Lisp.
beta.itasoftware.com has all the important bits implemented in Lisp.
> Oh, and using only free CL implementations, please.
Yadda, yadda, yadda.
···········@yahoo.com (Pat Perkins) writes:
> Also, I'm not sure whether this is really a reasonable thing to want
> to do - other than the Viaweb site, I can't really find any examples
> of real-world websites implemented in LISP, so while it may be an
> interesting learning exercise, will it only be just that?
http://demo.webcheckout.net is a demo of an all CL web application in
production at over a dozen universities.
http://alpha.onshored.com/lisp-software is the Free Software upon
which it is built.
http://www.red-bean.com/lispweb is a mailing list for people doing
lisp based web development.
http://ww.telent.net/cliki/Web is a good starting point as well.
--
Craig Brozefsky <·····@red-bean.com>
Free Software Sociopath(tm) http://www.red-bean.com/~craig
Ask me about Common Lisp Enterprise Eggplants at Red Bean!
From: Duane Rettig
Subject: Re: Examples of/code examples for websites run on CL?
Date:
Message-ID: <4hemra2yd.fsf@beta.franz.com>
Craig Brozefsky <·····@red-bean.com> writes:
> ···········@yahoo.com (Pat Perkins) writes:
>
> > Also, I'm not sure whether this is really a reasonable thing to want
> > to do - other than the Viaweb site, I can't really find any examples
> > of real-world websites implemented in LISP, so while it may be an
> > interesting learning exercise, will it only be just that?
>
> http://demo.webcheckout.net is a demo of an all CL web application in
> production at over a dozen universities.
>
> http://alpha.onshored.com/lisp-software is the Free Software upon
> which it is built.
>
> http://www.red-bean.com/lispweb is a mailing list for people doing
> lisp based web development.
>
> http://ww.telent.net/cliki/Web is a good starting point as well.
Also, don't forget http://www.franz.com/ which is powered by
AllegroServe. Click on the icon at the bottom of the left-hand
column for details.
--
Duane Rettig Franz Inc. http://www.franz.com/ (www)
1995 University Ave Suite 275 Berkeley, CA 94704
Phone: (510) 548-3600; FAX: (510) 548-8253 ·····@Franz.COM (internet)