Hello all,
I am looking for a Common Lisp book which goes far enough in detail to make
me understand the true advantages of Lisp over other languages. Comming from
C++, python, ruby, C and some smalltalk I do see advantages using Lisp, but
am not fully convinced yet. What for example are the benefits of Common Lisp
over Smalltalk, which also features dynamic and interactive development.
Of course scientific articles might be more appropriate for my interests.
Any pointers are highly appreciated.
Regards,
Frank
"Frank Sonnemans" <···············@euronet.be> writes:
> Hello all,
>
> I am looking for a Common Lisp book which goes far enough in detail to make
> me understand the true advantages of Lisp over other languages. Comming from
> C++, python, ruby, C and some smalltalk I do see advantages using Lisp, but
> am not fully convinced yet. What for example are the benefits of Common Lisp
> over Smalltalk, which also features dynamic and interactive development.
>
> Of course scientific articles might be more appropriate for my interests.
>
> Any pointers are highly appreciated.
Not a comparative analysis, but you might try "Basic Lisp Techniques",
by David Cooper, Jr. which is available in pdf form:
http://www.franz.com/resources/educational_resources/cooper.book.pdf
--
Duane Rettig Franz Inc. http://www.franz.com/ (www)
1995 University Ave Suite 275 Berkeley, CA 94704
Phone: (510) 548-3600; FAX: (510) 548-8253 ·····@Franz.COM (internet)
Frank Sonnemans wrote:
>
> Hello all,
>
> I am looking for a Common Lisp book which goes far enough in detail to make
> me understand the true advantages of Lisp over other languages. Comming from
> C++, python, ruby, C and some smalltalk I do see advantages using Lisp, but
> am not fully convinced yet. What for example are the benefits of Common Lisp
> over Smalltalk, which also features dynamic and interactive development.
>
> Of course scientific articles might be more appropriate for my interests.
>
> Any pointers are highly appreciated.
>
> Regards,
>
> Frank
I can't offer anything speaking specifically to Smalltalk, but you might
be interested in Richard Fateman's paper "Software Fault Prevention by
Language Choice: Why C is Not my Favorite Language"
<URL:http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~fateman/papers/software.pdf>.
Also, as I am a relative newbie myself, I would be interested in hearing
the comments of experienced Lispers on this paper. (I notice from google
that the URL has been posted here a couple of times, but with no
response to the paper.)
Also, there is Erann Gat's paper "Lisp as an Alternative to Java"
<URL:http://www-aig.jpl.nasa.gov/public/home/gat/lisp-study.html>.
HTH,
Joe Dale
One of my favorites for this would be Peter Norvig's book. Although not
a direct comparison study, the case studies illustrate ways of
programming in Common Lisp which can give you insight into a lot of the
convenience and power of using the language:
Paradigms of Artificial Intelligence Programming: Case Studies
in Common Lisp by Peter Norvig 1992
Morgan Kaufmann Publishers
ISBN: 1558601910
There is also Erann Gat's paper, although it doesn't address SmallTalk:
http://www-aig.jpl.nasa.gov/public/home/gat/lisp-study.html
--
Thomas A. Russ, USC/Information Sciences Institute ···@isi.edu
On Wed, 19 Sep 2001, Frank Sonnemans wrote:
> Hello all,
>
> I am looking for a Common Lisp book which goes far enough in detail to make
> me understand the true advantages of Lisp over other languages. Comming from
> C++, python, ruby, C and some smalltalk I do see advantages using Lisp, but
> am not fully convinced yet. What for example are the benefits of Common Lisp
> over Smalltalk, which also features dynamic and interactive development.
Let me speak as a big time Smalltalker: CLOS is just cool.
I recommend Keene's book, which really doesn't require *much* prior Lisp
knowledge, though I'm not the best person to judge.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0201175894/qid=1000914907/sr=2-1/ref=sr_8_3_1/107-2750661-0899702
CLOS uses a very different object model, one that trades certain types of
simplicity for certain type of flexibility (and attendant simplicities).
For example, multiple dispatch is just better for some things. If you're
implementing generic, mixed-type arithmetic it's both conceptually and
pragmatically clearer (just one example).
There's also a more standardize MOP (with less standardized bits).
It has a sane model of multiple inheritence. When you want multiple
inheritence, it's really nice not to have to substitute composition.
And there's loads of other stuff. Get the Keene.
Note that this is just the object stuff. There's tons of other interesting
stuff in Common Lisp.
One place that CL also generally wins over smalltalk is numerics. Both are
miles ahead of most other languages, but CL definitely wins on the
standard optimization front. (I.e., you can use type declarations to,
given a compiler that takes advantage of them, speed up (among other
things) numeric code. In Smalltalk, given current systems, you generally
have to decend to C or use specialized classes.)
My limitied Common Lisp experience suggests that Smalltalk systems may
tend to be more "tactical". It's really the only way I can describe
it. And it's a hard call to make without having had comperable CL
experience.
CL is a multi-paradigm language. Smalltalk is a single-paradigm
langauge. Some folks work better with one, some with the other. In
Smalltalk, when you want to do stuff like logic programming, you tend to
do it either in an OOPy way, or to implement, e.g., prolog. In Common
Lisp, it seems that you do it in a Lispy way. And doing things in a Lispy
way tends to be more "accepting" of the other paradigm. Ah, these last
remarks are kinda vague, but I hope I convey something useful by them.
Smalltalk seems to rely more on Tools that are implemented in the
language. Common Lisp more on Tools that are part of the language. This is
more a reflection on the communities than on the langauges per se.
Cheers,
Bijan Parsia.
In article <·············@scavenger.euro.net>,
···············@euronet.be says...
> Hello all,
>
> I am looking for a Common Lisp book which goes far enough in detail to make
> me understand the true advantages of Lisp over other languages. Comming from
> C++, python, ruby, C and some smalltalk I do see advantages using Lisp, but
> am not fully convinced yet. What for example are the benefits of Common Lisp
> over Smalltalk, which also features dynamic and interactive development.
>
> Of course scientific articles might be more appropriate for my interests.
>
> Any pointers are highly appreciated.
>
> Regards,
>
>
> Frank
>
>
>
Hi Frank,
my favorite books on this topic are:
On Lisp from Paul Graham
and
Kiczales, Gregor, Jim des Rivieres, and Daniel G. Bobrow.
The Art of the Metaobject Protocol. MIT Press
Those books are advanced books, taking some time to read and understand,
but they show a lot of the power of Common Lisp.
More info about those books at
www.lisp.org
A small white paper with a comparison of languages can be found at:
http://www.franz.com/resources/educational_resources/white_papers/
Samir