Since this community clearly has very strong feelings about
line wrapping in e-mail/news messages I'd like to take a
quick poll. I realize the respondents will be self-selected,
but what the heck. Please reply only to me, if your news
reader will allow it. No need for Kaz Kylheku or Erik Naggum
to answer the first question.
(1) Does your newsreader automatically wrap long lines
to the width of the screen, or does it force you to
scroll horizontally to read them?
(2) Does your newsreader wrap long lines (like this one) ON SEND, or does it leave them alone? This is actually a rhetorical question. I'll see the answer when you reply.
(3) If the answer to (1) was "no", which do you dislike
more (a) having to scroll horizontally, or (b) having to
> >read
> text like this
> > > with some long lines and some short
> lines, intermixed with > characters?
(4) What newsreader do you use?
In article <·················@mediaone.net>, Carl Gay wrote:
>Since this community clearly has very strong feelings about
>line wrapping in e-mail/news messages I'd like to take a
>quick poll.
Note that you are making a request for a discussion that is not related
to Lisp in any way.
>(1) Does your newsreader automatically wrap long lines
>to the width of the screen, or does it force you to
>scroll horizontally to read them?
I encourage you to take this discussion to news.software.newsreaders,
where discussions about the behavior of newsreaders is topical.
The rules for formatting Usenet messages did not originate in
comp.lang.lisp. If you write long lines, you will annoy people all
over Usenet.
Kaz Kylheku wrote:
>
> In article <·················@mediaone.net>, Carl Gay wrote:
> >Since this community clearly has very strong feelings about
> >line wrapping in e-mail/news messages I'd like to take a
> >quick poll.
>
> Note that you are making a request for a discussion that is not related
> to Lisp in any way.
That is correct. Much as your response to my previous message
had nothing to do with Lisp.
>
> >(1) Does your newsreader automatically wrap long lines
> >to the width of the screen, or does it force you to
> >scroll horizontally to read them?
>
> I encourage you to take this discussion to news.software.newsreaders,
> where discussions about the behavior of newsreaders is topical.
>
> The rules for formatting Usenet messages did not originate in
> comp.lang.lisp. If you write long lines, you will annoy people all
> over Usenet.
Thanks Kaz, I'll add your comments to the responses.
Here are the responses I got in private mail. One person mentioned RFC2646,
which looks like a ray of hope, though I doubt MS will ever implement it. One
person mentioned the IETF USEFOR working group, which I haven't followed up
yet.
In general there was an unhealthy dose of disdain for anyone using HTML in
their correspondence. I think having more functionality than plain text
is a Good Thing, in general, and I hope we can eventually have such a
system that works for everyone.
The vast majority of the respondents use Gnus. Not much surprise there,
I guess, though the venom is a bit surprising given that it does wrap
text to the window width and if not, there's a good chance W w will do
the trick for them.
The upshot, for me at least, is that I will switch back to manually wrapping my
messages when I post to newsgroups. I have to deal with HTML in my e-mail and
with e-mail from Outlook users (I don't have the luxury many respondents
apparently have of just deleting it) and I think my mistake was to not
distinguish between e-mail and news when I switched to accommodate the
Outlook users.
The original questions are numbered and respondents are lettered...
(1) Does your newsreader automatically wrap long lines to the width of the
screen, or does it force you to scroll horizontally to read them?
(a) No and yes.
(b) No, not automatically, but I get it with W w, which runs the function
gnus-article-fill-cited-article. This function has a large number of
serious drawbacks -- such as also reformatting quoted text, code, etc.
(c) It can if I tell it to, but I don't because the technical articles
I read sometimes contains code where the linewrapping is significant.
(d) It automatically wraps them to the width of the window. However this
is eighty columns (or whatever I resize my window to) and this still
looks worse than the usual 70 (more or less) columns.
(e) No, and no. Lines wrap when the margin of the window is reached, and if
that's in the middle of a word, than it wraps there. I can use "W w" to
wrap it readable, but the drawbacks are as Erik Naggum described them.
You /could/ use something like "X-Format: flowed" or whatever it is
called in your headers (seen it on messages sent with Netscape) which
would cause my newsreader to automatically wrap lines according to my
settings. This, on the other hand, lets my newsreader load the package
"flow-fill", which makes me wait till the load process is finished and
the message finally displayed.
(f) My Gnus wraps them but not on word boundarys and leaves a backslash behind
the end of wrapped lines (and this is on of the few right ways to do).
Google does not wrap lines. Try it and you'll see the pain
<·······························································@mediaone.net>
(g) It breaks them at the edge of the screen, drawing a little arrow to
indicate wrappage, but doesn't "word wrap" (nor would I want it to;
breaking lines is Evil). Long lines are a royal pain. [NB. it could
word wrap, etc., if I asked it to, but I won't because that's evil and
non-standard]
(h) No answer.
(i) Wraps lines, but also in middle of words.
(j) Forces me to scroll.
(k) Can be made to wrap automatically..
(l) Message Wrapping Incoming=Yes.
(m) It automatically wraps them, but not in a pleasing way. It simply
shows the lines all the way to the end of the window, injects a small
arrow showing that it goes on to the next line (sometimes in the
middle of a word).
(n) It wraps at character 80.
-----------
(2) Does your newsreader wrap long lines (like this one) ON SEND, or does it leave them alone? This is actually a rhetorical question. I'll see the answer when you reply.
(a) As you said.
(b) If I did not use W w to re-fill the article when I read it, M-q would
re-fill the paragraph you left on a single line into what you see above.
(c) I format paragraphs to a given linewidth (65) by pressing Alt-q
as I'm typing. If my message contains lines wider than 80
characters, it prompts me and asks if I really want to send it.
If I do, it sends it, otherwise I go back to edit my article.
(d) My newsreader leaves to long lines that it quoted alone, but it wraps
the lines I write while typing them. I usually reformat quoted long
lines with the press of one key like this:
It also adds the quotation marks at the beginning of the line, so it
really is one keypress to get the above example. (Assuming your
newsreader doesn't glue them together again.)
(e) See above.
(f) It does not modify them, but ask me if I really want to post such an
unfirendly message.
(g) It leaves them alone, but it inserts line breaks as I type, so you'll
see standard length lines.
(h) Yes it does. I feel sorry for this idiots in usegroups which are
complaining about usenet-rules (e.g. this clown Naggum).
(i) No answer. [The line wasn't wrapped on send.]
(j) No answer. [The line wasn't wrapped on send.]
(k) Can be made to wrap automatically..
(l) Message Wrapping Outgoing=Yes (@ 72 chars/line).
[Though I notice it didn't wrap the long line in the survey. -clg]
(m) No, not while sending. My News client wraps the lines _while writing_,
of course. If I force a line to be longer than a user settable
treshold, it warns me about with if I try to send the article.
[Of course? Heh. -clg]
(n) I hope it sends the text without mangling it. This is Unix software!
[It did, but what does that have to do with being Unix software? -clg]
-----------
(3) If the answer to (1) was "no", which do you dislike
more (a) having to scroll horizontally, or (b) having to
> >read
> text like this
> > > with some long lines and some short
> lines, intermixed with > characters?
(a) None of the above. I like well formatted 80 column text. Something that
people using "smart" message composer can usually control by setting them to
send messages in "Plain Text".
(b) I prefer to skip such articles entirely. Outlokk Express victims who
refuse to clean up their act and stop using that disgusting misfeature
probably have nothing of value to add to society in other ways, either.
(c) If the author didn't have time to edit his article, it probably
isn't worth reading, so I just give them a lower score to save
time.
(d) I did say "yes" to (1), but why present it like these are the only two
options?
(e) I tend to ignore badly formatted messages (on stuff like the above, "W
w" wouldn't help anymore) because they are a pain to read and a pain to
reply to. And more often than not, the pain of reading those messages is
not only due to the formatting.
(f) I don't see the point. If somebody writes badly formatted messages I
expect it to be badly formatted. But writing badly formatted message
in the (false) hope that it will produce properly formatted message is
gross.
Anyway the point is that my or even your liking or disliking has
nothing with how we should follow Usenet rules when playing on Usenet
ground. You should be *very* carefull when breaking those rules as
you are mostly insulting people who care about them.
(g) The latter is only a problem with horribly broken newsreaders. In the
event that I was using such a broken piece of trash, I'd rather see
the latter, because that would motivate me to replace it with a less
broken newsreader which at least tries to comply with expected
standard behaviour.
[In other words: wrap your lines, and to hell with Outlook Express
users; tell 'em to get a real newsreader (and preferably a real OS) if
they don't like it]
(h) No answer.
(i) No answer.
(j) I'd rather read garbage than have to scroll, however, if text is
manually formatted to be less than 80 characters or so, I don't
have to do either.
(k) No answer.
(l) I don't have to scroll horizontally, and I hate (b). Once damaged,
messages with hosed up indents propagate line-wrap errors so everyone
feels the pain. I find viewing them repugnant. OTOH, it is often much
easier to respond to messages that are actually broken into different
lines up front if you have intra-paragraph issues that need
highlighting.
(m) Oh, that would be (b), I think. I try to edit any quotes I include
when I post (although I left this untouched to give context).
(n) n/a
-------------
(4) What newsreader do you use?
trn - 1 person
Gnus - 9 people
Netscape - 2 people
One person said s/he uses at least five different newsreaders,
including Gnus and Netscape. God have mercy on his/her soul.
* Carl Gay <·······@mediaone.net>
> No need for Kaz Kylheku or Erik Naggum to answer the first question.
Huh?
> (1) Does your newsreader automatically wrap long lines
> to the width of the screen, or does it force you to
> scroll horizontally to read them?
No, not automatically, but I get it with W w, which runs the function
gnus-article-fill-cited-article. This function has a large number of
serious drawbacks -- such as also reformatting quoted text, code, etc.
> (2) Does your newsreader wrap long lines (like this one) ON SEND, or does
> it leave them alone? This is actually a rhetorical question. I'll see
> the answer when you reply.
If I did not use W w to re-fill the article when I read it, M-q would
re-fill the paragraph you left on a single line into what you see above.
> (3) If the answer to (1) was "no", which do you dislike
> more (a) having to scroll horizontally, or (b) having to
> > >read
> > text like this
> > > > with some long lines and some short
> > lines, intermixed with > characters?
I prefer to skip such articles entirely. Outlokk Express victims who
refuse to clean up their act and stop using that disgusting misfeature
probably have nothing of value to add to society in other ways, either.
> (4) What newsreader do you use?
User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/20.7
///
Carl Gay wrote:
>
> Since this community clearly has very strong feelings about
(most everything :)
> line wrapping in e-mail/news messages I'd like to take a
> quick poll. I realize the respondents will be self-selected,
> but what the heck. Please reply only to me, if your news
> reader will allow it. No need for Kaz Kylheku or Erik Naggum
> to answer the first question.
>
> (1) Does your newsreader automatically wrap long lines
> to the width of the screen, or does it force you to
> scroll horizontally to read them?
>
> (2) Does your newsreader wrap long lines (like this one) ON SEND, or does it leave them alone? This is actually a rhetorical question. I'll see the answer when you reply.
Netscape: Can configure to wrap incoming to window width, and wrap outgoing to
XX char. I use 79 and set my window the same width.
Gnus: Does not wrap w/o adding special functionality. Can select a block and
M-q it to clean up, including cleaning up quoted text.
>
> (3) If the answer to (1) was "no", which do you dislike
> more (a) having to scroll horizontally, or (b) having to
> > >read
> > text like this
> > > > with some long lines and some short
> > lines, intermixed with > characters?
> \
That's easy. Scrolling horizontally is an abomination. And that makes your
posts essentially unreadable by the traditional Unix crowd. Probably no problem
on alt.sex.bondage, though, you might try over there.
> (4) What newsreader do you use?
Gnus on Linux, and Netscape on Windows, for now. This was Netscape.
Referring to your earlier post, you are not breaking lines to accomodate a
"losing" newsreader?? Outstanding. Why would you care if those lusers have a
little trouble reading some posts because they can't figure out how to
configure their software??
I suggest you follow convention and break outgoing lines at 79. If you're
looking for a challenge, try Gnus, vertical learning curve, but worth it!
--
K u r t B. K a i s e r
k b k @@ s h o r e .. n e t
------------------------------
"Kurt B. Kaiser" wrote:
> > (2) Does your newsreader wrap long lines (like this one) ON SEND, or does it leave them alone? This is actually a rhetorical question. I'll see the answer when you reply.
That's interesting, NS set lines at 79 for my response, but not the quote of
your article!
123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890
--
K u r t B. K a i s e r
k b k @@ s h o r e .. n e t
------------------------------
Thanks for your response. I'll add it to the list.
"Kurt B. Kaiser" wrote:
>
> Carl Gay wrote:
> >
> > Since this community clearly has very strong feelings about
>
> (most everything :)
>
> > line wrapping in e-mail/news messages I'd like to take a
> > quick poll. I realize the respondents will be self-selected,
> > but what the heck. Please reply only to me, if your news
> > reader will allow it. No need for Kaz Kylheku or Erik Naggum
> > to answer the first question.
> >
> > (1) Does your newsreader automatically wrap long lines
> > to the width of the screen, or does it force you to
> > scroll horizontally to read them?
> >
> > (2) Does your newsreader wrap long lines (like this one) ON SEND, or does it leave them alone? This is actually a rhetorical question. I'll see the answer when you reply.
>
> Netscape: Can configure to wrap incoming to window width, and wrap outgoing to
> XX char. I use 79 and set my window the same width.
This "wrap outgoing" is the problem.
>
> Gnus: Does not wrap w/o adding special functionality. Can select a block and
> M-q it to clean up, including cleaning up quoted text.
>
> >
> > (3) If the answer to (1) was "no", which do you dislike
> > more (a) having to scroll horizontally, or (b) having to
> > > >read
> > > text like this
> > > > > with some long lines and some short
> > > lines, intermixed with > characters?
> > \
>
> That's easy. Scrolling horizontally is an abomination. And that makes your
> posts essentially unreadable by the traditional Unix crowd. Probably no problem
> on alt.sex.bondage, though, you might try over there.
I don't understand why they would like it better, but then I don't
hang out in those circles. ;-)
> > (4) What newsreader do you use?
>
> Gnus on Linux, and Netscape on Windows, for now. This was Netscape.
I used to use gnus but changed because I found I had to deal with
HTML e-mail. How do you deal with HTML messages in gnus? Has it
improved?
>
> Referring to your earlier post, you are not breaking lines to accomodate a
> "losing" newsreader?? Outstanding. Why would you care if those lusers have a
> little trouble reading some posts because they can't figure out how to
> configure their software??
It's not because THEY couldn't read it. It's because I couldn't
read the included text (context) in their replies. Not wrapping
my text makes it slightly better, and makes things perfect if
they also don't wrap anything.
> I suggest you follow convention and break outgoing lines at 79. If you're
> looking for a challenge, try Gnus, vertical learning curve, but worth it!
I didn't find it played well with modern e-mail messages. (Attachments,
HTML, etc.)
So far all the people who have self-selected use gnus. Plain Text Forever!
Gnus does appear to work in emacs for Windows, so maybe I'll see if it's
improved lately.
Carl Gay wrote:
> I used to use gnus but changed because I found I had to deal with
> HTML e-mail. How do you deal with HTML messages in gnus? Has it
> improved?
filter it to an expiring group.
More seriously, I don't deal with it. I either scroll down to osmose the
content, kill it, or leave it on the IMAP server and deal with it in Netscape.
Sigh.
<snip>
> So far all the people who have self-selected use gnus. Plain Text Forever!
> Gnus does appear to work in emacs for Windows, so maybe I'll see if it's
> improved lately.
They keep trying, but it's two different worlds, I'm afraid. (Resistance is
futile. The latest version of hotmail has html on by default and good luck to
the average person trying to turn it off.)
--
K u r t B. K a i s e r
k b k @@ s h o r e .. n e t
------------------------------
"Kurt B. Kaiser" <···@shore.net> writes:
> Carl Gay wrote:
> > I used to use gnus but changed because I found I had to deal with
> > HTML e-mail. How do you deal with HTML messages in gnus? Has it
> > improved?
>
> filter it to an expiring group.
>
> More seriously, I don't deal with it. I either scroll down to osmose
> the content, kill it, or leave it on the IMAP server and deal with
> it in Netscape. Sigh.
If you install w3, gnus will also render HTML mail and news articles
but, well, they are rarely worth it.
Regards,
--
Nils Goesche
"Don't ask for whom the <CTRL-G> tolls."
PGP key ID 0x42B32FC9
Carl Gay <·······@mediaone.net> writes:
> I used to use gnus but changed because I found I had to deal with
> HTML e-mail. How do you deal with HTML messages in gnus? Has it
> improved?
Both Gnus and VM (the other good MUA for Emacs -- it acts like a mail
reader, not a news reader) both now do MIME just fine, which includes
farming HTML out to W3.
In article <·················@mediaone.net>, Carl Gay wrote:
>I used to use gnus but changed because I found I had to deal with
>HTML e-mail. How do you deal with HTML messages in gnus? Has it
>improved?
I deal with HTML messages the same way I would deal with a stinking pile
of dung left at my doorstep.
HTML is inappropriate in discussion newsgroups. It is a mark of
ridicule which distinguishes newbies who haven't yet managed to locate
and disable the ``post HTML'' checkbox in their preferences of their
pseudo-newsreader.
In the newsgroups carrying multimedia binaries, HTML appears mostly
in spam; the topical stuff is properly uuencoded and split.
That covers all of the useful newsgroups.
As far as HTML e-mail, you can simply ask people not to send you any,
with a polite reminder that HTML is intended for constructing web pages.
I can't remember the last time someone sent me HTML mail that wasn't
spam. I could implement a pattern match for HTML in message bodies as
an anti-spam filter, and it would hardly yield any false positives at all.
On Mon, 10 Sep 2001 21:35:59 GMT, Carl Gay <·······@mediaone.net> wrote:
> HTML e-mail. How do you deal with HTML messages in gnus? Has it
What's the problem? With my email application I just delete them :) Gnus'
mileage might vary...
Paolo
--
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