Since I've just begun some initial feelings into Common Lisp, and
because I've read several comments in this list to the effect that "lisp
takes awhile to learn", I'll ask an obvious newbie question:
How much dedicated time does it take someone to learn lisp?
Of course, this depends on desire, skill, experience etc. So let's
narrow the question some. Assume desire & just raw ability are constant.
Now, how long does it take a beginning programmer to learn lisp vs. a
more seasoned programmer?
Further narrowing:
What kind of programming backgrounds fit better when learning lisp: OO,
procedural, functional, scientific, business? Does it matter much?
Just kind of wondering, as I know I've had to kind of shift my own OO
paradigm some as I look at lisp functions...
Eric
--
This guy has got to get a better signature
FWIW, many people feel that already knowing another (non-Lispish)
programming language increases the time required to learn Lisp.
--
Thomas A. Russ, USC/Information Sciences Institute ···@isi.edu
From: Tim Bradshaw
Subject: Re: lisp ramp-up time (newbie question)
Date:
Message-ID: <ey3vgpnoe6b.fsf@cley.com>
* Eric Winger wrote:
> How much dedicated time does it take someone to learn lisp?
I think it takes the rest of your life! Seriously, it's very hard to
know what this question means. This doesn't mean it's not a question
that is worth asking, it just means that it needs a lot of
qualification. I've been writing in CL for > 10 years and I'm still
learning...
I think the most important attributes are open-mindedness, an interest
in learning, and a willingness to be pragmatic -- you need to be
willing to think about the language on its terms, and not instantly
assume that it's bust because it does things differently from whatever
is fashionable this year, be willing to take the time to understand
things, and understand that some of the `impurity' is because the
world is just a bit like that and CL is too.
I think the language also is really very rewarding to experienced
programmers, because it's so much about finding workable solutions to
hard problems, *if* that experience hasn't left them frozen into some
particular mindset.
--tim
Eric Winger <·······@keyww.com> writes:
> Since I've just begun some initial feelings into Common Lisp, and
> because I've read several comments in this list to the effect that "lisp
> takes awhile to learn", I'll ask an obvious newbie question:
>
> How much dedicated time does it take someone to learn lisp?
>
Just one data point: I learned Lisp during a summer job some years
ago. Within one and a half months, I had learned enough of the
language and the problem domain to write a simple proof-of-concept
demo to "sell" the project in question to management, which was all
that was required from me. Some time later, I took a course in
artificial intelligence and realized, to my surprise, that I had
apparently written a "rule-based reactive goal-driven expert system"
(or something). But at the time, it was just the easiest way to solve
what I was supposed to do...
>
> What kind of programming backgrounds fit better when learning lisp: OO,
> procedural, functional, scientific, business? Does it matter much?
>
I had learned a little bit of ML. This helped because I was already
familiar with higher-order functions (map &c), so did not have to wrap
my head around that part of the language.
Rudi
>>>>> In article <·················@keyww.com>, Eric Winger wrote:
Eric> How much dedicated time does it take someone to learn lisp?
An interesting question. But will learning "lisp", all by itself, be
of any use to you? I think you'll also need to learn how to _program_.
Norvig's got this great diatribe about "learning to program in 10 years"
at http://www.norvig.com/21-days.html. Great fun.
The point is that learning a language is one thing, but in the
occupation which is "programming" (or "software engineering", as they
pretentiously like to call it nowadays) the language part is but a small
bit.
Think of it this way -- you can learn how to steer a car, and get it
to go places in an afternoon. How many years of rush-hour traffic do
you need to become an _excellent_ driver? Three years? Five? Ten?
--
It would be difficult to construe Larry Wall, in article
this as a feature. <·····················@netlabs.com>
All good answers, and thx.
Alain Picard wrote:
> I think you'll also need to learn how to _program_.
>
All too true.. In my experience with Smalltalk and other languages I've found
that solving the problem in your head is 90% of the battle. Coding is another
10%. Language is less relevant than programming skills.
When I made a move several years ago from writing business apps in COBOL to
Smalltalk, I had a huge paradigm shift to Object oriented programming. It took
me forever (at least it seemed) to start thinking of the problem in terms of
objects. Another jump I made was from doing ST business apps to real-time
processing, I made another leap. Now, I have this hankering to try on lisp for
size. But as I started, I had to shift out of OO mode and into lisp-mode. But, I
haven't figured out what lisp mode is.
Now add that experience to rumblings from people that say it takes a good STer
about 3 months to ramp up on Java. So I got to thinking (dangerous), what makes
a good lisper? How long does it take to really understand CL? In Smalltalk,
before I ever started my boss told me that you don't get good for at least a
couple years. And about 3-6 months to kind of get it. So that's where my
question came from.
However, in hind sight, maybe better questions would have been .... what kinds
of experience helps one to grasp lisp better? what mind-sets and domains? what
problems does lisp solve better than other languages? (If anyone has a take on
these, I'd happily listen)
Or maybe these are just ramblings of a madman...
Eric
--
This guy has got to get a better signature
>>>>> Eric Winger writes:
> But, I haven't figured out what lisp mode is.
Well, for me, it's the "Lisp is a programmable programming language" bit.
Bending the language to your problem. Not that I'm any good at it
(yet) but that's certainly what fascinates me and what I want to get
better at.
> Now add that experience to rumblings from people that say it takes a
> good STer about 3 months to ramp up on Java.
Yes, but that's because when moving from smalltalk to Java, you're
downgrading. :-)
> However, in hind sight, maybe better questions would have been
> .... what kinds of experience helps one to grasp lisp better? what
> mind-sets and domains? what problems does lisp solve better than
> other languages? (If anyone has a take on these, I'd happily listen)
Now *those* are good questions! :-)
I think you can program from most any domain, but those which benefit
the most are those in which the problems to solve are difficult, or
where the solutions are unknown and require a lot of `exploration'.
There the dynamic nature of lisp, and interactivity of the
environment, really shine.
When you've finished your first macro which does serious computation
to decide what to expand into, you'll be "thinking lisp".
You're entering a wonderful world! Happy Lisping!
--
It would be difficult to construe Larry Wall, in article
this as a feature. <·····················@netlabs.com>
[ Eric Winger ]
> Since I've just begun some initial feelings into Common Lisp, and
> because I've read several comments in this list to the effect that "lisp
> takes awhile to learn", I'll ask an obvious newbie question:
>
> How much dedicated time does it take someone to learn lisp?
As a mere data point, I've learned Common Lisp in a part-time job I
have in addition to studies. I had 3-4 years of studies behind me when
I started, and knew Simula, C and some Java, ML, Haskell, Perl and
bits of other stuff. A figure I've heard before is six months to have
a reasonably good grasp of the language, and I didn't feel that was
terribly far from the truth for me.
Martin
--
"An ideal world is left as an exercise to the reader."
-Paul Graham, On Lisp