I am finishing a masters module in LISP for AI etc., and I was just
wondering if anybody has any good suggestions about possible job
prospects in which Lisp and AI may be involved?
m.j.short BSc (hons)
On Wed, 20 Sep 2000 22:12:45 +0100, Michael J Short
<·········@tothemoon.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
> I am finishing a masters module in LISP for AI etc., and I was just
> wondering if anybody has any good suggestions about possible job
> prospects in which Lisp and AI may be involved?
As suggested in the FAQ of this newsgroup, you may subscribe to the
ai+lisp-jobs mailing list by sending a message to:
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with the following command in the body:
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Paolo
--
EncyCMUCLopedia * Extensive collection of CMU Common Lisp documentation
http://cvs2.cons.org:8000/cmucl/doc/EncyCMUCLopedia/
Michael J Short wrote:
> I am finishing a masters module in LISP for AI etc., and I was just
> wondering if anybody has any good suggestions about possible job
> prospects in which Lisp and AI may be involved?
For finding a job that is, almost exactly, the wrong
qualification.
I'd be very surprised if any AI/Lisp job vacancies exist in
the UK, or if they does whether the job's worth having. If
you have a green card you'll have better luck on the other
side of the pond, though even there opportunities are rare compared
with the 1980s. Alternatively you might try continental
Europe if you have the appropriate language skills and don't
mind the high taxes.
Perhaps you could emphasize any other experience you gained --
Java, C++, Visual Basic, PERL are all far more marketable even
if less satisfying to program in -- and just program in Lisp
for fun, particularly if you want to stay in Blighty.
Sorry to sound so negative, but that's commercial reality.
> m.j.short BSc (hons)
--
Le Hibou
With regard to Mr Blair's "gut British instinct" --
would that be the same British gut, with "pussy-
hunter" tattooed on it, we saw being repatriated
from Charleroi recently? -- Peter Kenvyn Jones
On Tue, 26 Sep 2000 01:08:13 +0100, Donald Fisk
<················@enterprise.net> wrote:
> with the 1980s. Alternatively you might try continental
> Europe if you have the appropriate language skills and don't
> mind the high taxes.
Last time I checked, the Italian company Quinary, located in Milan, has job
openings for Lisp programmers:
http://www.quinary.it/
I am a bit embarrassed to admit that, although I live in Milan and I have
been interested in Lisp for almost a decade, I discovered Quinary by chance
just a few weeks ago :) So, if you need a Lisp job, be sure to look hard in
your own city or country first: there might be companies using Lisp that
you are not ware of.
Paolo
--
EncyCMUCLopedia * Extensive collection of CMU Common Lisp documentation
http://cvs2.cons.org:8000/cmucl/doc/EncyCMUCLopedia/
Paolo Amoroso <·······@mclink.it> writes:
> On Tue, 26 Sep 2000 01:08:13 +0100, Donald Fisk
> <················@enterprise.net> wrote:
>
> > with the 1980s. Alternatively you might try continental
> > Europe if you have the appropriate language skills and don't
> > mind the high taxes.
>
> Last time I checked, the Italian company Quinary, located in Milan, has job
> openings for Lisp programmers:
>
> http://www.quinary.it/
>
> I am a bit embarrassed to admit that, although I live in Milan and I have
> been interested in Lisp for almost a decade, I discovered Quinary by chance
> just a few weeks ago :) So, if you need a Lisp job, be sure to look hard in
> your own city or country first: there might be companies using Lisp that
> you are not ware of.
Not only that. In Quinary there is still the one and only "true Lisp
programmer": the mythical LG! He does not write in this public forums
because he writes code. :)
Also, in the late 80's Quinary produced a nice
frame-based-OO-with-meta-layer system called QSL (Quinary Simple
Language). I ran on MCL, IBCL, and then Lucid. The core was also
ported to CMUCL.
Then came CLOS... :|
Cheers
--
Marco Antoniotti =============================================================
NYU Bioinformatics Group tel. +1 - 212 - 998 3488
719 Broadway 12th Floor fax +1 - 212 - 995 4122
New York, NY 10003, USA http://galt.mrl.nyu.edu/valis
Like DNA, such a language [Lisp] does not go out of style.
Paul Graham, ANSI Common Lisp
Donald Fisk <················@enterprise.net> writes:
>Michael J Short wrote:
>> I am finishing a masters module in LISP for AI etc., and I was just
>> wondering if anybody has any good suggestions about possible job
>> prospects in which Lisp and AI may be involved?
>For finding a job that is, almost exactly, the wrong
>qualification.
>I'd be very surprised if any AI/Lisp job vacancies exist in
>the UK, or if they does whether the job's worth having.
Hey, don't be overly pessimistic. Especially in the Web business,
there is quite some new interest in Lisp.
I'd recommend beating on cl-http, building some cool things, maybe
contributing good code back to cl-http. Seems to be like the shortest
path to get something to show to potential employers. Focus on
the internal workings of your project, not on HTTP or HTML tricks.
And, of course, the usual recommendation for job searches with very
specific expectations (in this case "Lisp"):
- be a professional first
- then be a professional programmer
- then be a professional Lisp programmer
In that order - to get nice jobs, you've got to show project
orientation, not tool advocacy.
Martin
--
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
Martin Cracauer <········@bik-gmbh.de> http://www.bik-gmbh.de/~cracauer/
FreeBSD - where you want to go. Today. http://www.freebsd.org/
In article <·············@counter.bik-gmbh.de>,
········@counter.bik-gmbh.de (Martin Cracauer) wrote:
> Hey, don't be overly pessimistic. Especially in the Web business,
> there is quite some new interest in Lisp.
There are a lot areas where you can write cool applications
in Lisp. Almost all of them require that you know more
than "just" Lisp - Lisp is the tool to deliver your
dreams. Since Lisp is possibly given an edge on productivity,
one *could* possibly compete successfully with much
larger efforts. A small team of dedicated Lisp hackers
can do wonders.
> I'd recommend beating on cl-http, building some cool things, maybe
> contributing good code back to cl-http.
Well, contributing back (code and bug-fixes) is always good.
CL-HTTP is widely available and provides a
large portable (and ported) library, so you can develop/deliver
on a wide range of machines/OS/Lisp combinations. It has
been available for several years (since 1995).
Make sure you are listed in th CL-HTTP "hall of fame"
of contributors:
http://wilson.ai.mit.edu/cl-http/acknowledgments.html
Using some free Unix variant, XEmacs/Emacs,
CMUCL and CL-HTTP - one has a powerful and cost saving
development platform. The feeling is that CMUCL
gets more interest lately and it would be cool if
more people would/could use it in combination with
CL-HTTP.
CL-HTTP has been and is being used in a wide area of
applications. Knowledge of full Common Lisp
and the various relevant web protocols is a big plus.
Some CL-HTTP applications that are showing a range
of possibilities:
http://agentsheets.cs.colorado.edu/Behavior-Exchange/Home
http://www.franz.com/success/customer_apps/business_apps/msi.php3
http://apsymac33.uni-trier.de:8080/incops
http://Shuttle-Upgrade.ARC.NASA.gov
http://www.ai.mit.edu/people/cvince/date/
http://ictg.cosc.canterbury.ac.nz:8000/sql-tutor/
--
Rainer Joswig, Hamburg, Germany
Email: ·············@corporate-world.lisp.de
Web: http://corporate-world.lisp.de/
"Donald Fisk" <················@enterprise.net> wrote in message
······················@enterprise.net...
> Michael J Short wrote:
> > I am finishing a masters module in LISP for AI etc., and I was just
> > wondering if anybody has any good suggestions about possible job
> > prospects in which Lisp and AI may be involved?
>
> For finding a job that is, almost exactly, the wrong
> qualification.
>
> I'd be very surprised if any AI/Lisp job vacancies exist in
> the UK, or if they does whether the job's worth having. If
> you have a green card you'll have better luck on the other
> side of the pond, though even there opportunities are rare compared
> with the 1980s. Alternatively you might try continental
> Europe if you have the appropriate language skills and don't
> mind the high taxes.
>
> Perhaps you could emphasize any other experience you gained --
> Java, C++, Visual Basic, PERL are all far more marketable even
> if less satisfying to program in -- and just program in Lisp
> for fun, particularly if you want to stay in Blighty.
>
> Sorry to sound so negative, but that's commercial reality.
I partially disagree. Granted Lisp+AI jobs are rather rare but Lisp can be
used for almost every kind of software and there are lots of possibilities
for this. The numerous advantages of Lisp vs any other programmation
language make it a powerfull alternative.
I've been doing industrial (real time 24x7 ATE software) and general
software in lisp for 3 years now. Just be creative in the ways you use Lisp.
For instance if you have to write C++ then write Lisp that will write the
C++ code for you.
Do web applications. Lisp shines when it comes to web programming. (and the
lisp code stays on the server so nobody can see that it's not asp/com+
except that it works and is reliable.
Contact some start-ups and tell them you can write reliable scalable
evolutive and maintenable software 5 times faster than in perl and I'm sure
they will listen to you.
Good Luck!
Marc Battyani
On Tue, 26 Sep 2000 01:08:13 +0100, Donald Fisk
<················@enterprise.net> wrote:
>Michael J Short wrote:
>> I am finishing a masters module in LISP for AI etc., and I was just
>> wondering if anybody has any good suggestions about possible job
>> prospects in which Lisp and AI may be involved?
>
>For finding a job that is, almost exactly, the wrong
>qualification.
>I'd be very surprised if any AI/Lisp job vacancies exist in
>the UK, or if they does whether the job's worth having.
I'm not quite so pessimistic although based on personal experience I agree with
the view that there are fewer of these vacancies around in the UK than say 5 or
10 years ago.
If you are in the UK and want to stay there I think you have a few options:
1) Regularly use one of the UK-based job search engines to find a position with
the handful of organisations using Lisp and AI in the UK.
2) Try for a position in academia.
3) Start your own company.
Mark
> Michael J Short wrote:
> > I am finishing a masters module in LISP for AI etc., and I was just
> > wondering if anybody has any good suggestions about possible job
> > prospects in which Lisp and AI may be involved?
>
you might also contact the sales people of the commercial lisp vendors.
They have intensive contact with companies running Lisp projects and
often looking for new people.
Good luck...
Samir Sekkat
Donald Fisk <················@enterprise.net> writes:
> Michael J Short wrote:
> > I am finishing a masters module in LISP for AI etc., and I was just
> > wondering if anybody has any good suggestions about possible job
> > prospects in which Lisp and AI may be involved?
> For finding a job that is, almost exactly, the wrong
> qualification.
Depends. I recently turned down a very attractive offer for a job in
which the major focus would have been programming in Lisp. (Didn't
want to immigrate after all.) My motto is: I only need one job. Let
others do what they feel they "have to".
> Perhaps you could emphasize any other experience you gained --
> Java, C++, Visual Basic, PERL
That's assuming he wants to work with any of those.
> Sorry to sound so negative, but that's commercial reality.
No, it isn't. It is for you, though, if you want it to be.
--
Some people just prove that human procreation is too cheap.
-- Erik Naggum
Ola Rinta-Koski <···@iki.fi.REMOVE.THIS> writes:
>Donald Fisk <················@enterprise.net> writes:
>> Perhaps you could emphasize any other experience you gained --
>> Java, C++, Visual Basic, PERL
>
> That's assuming he wants to work with any of those.
Not mention that it will damage a potential empolyers impression on
his ability to stick to something and/or his seriousness to tangle
with complicated stuff when obstacles need to be overcome.
Not that I say C knowledge is bad. But the key to an AI (not
neccessarily Lisp) job seems to me that you build something that is
internally complex. That doesn't leave much room for interfacing with
"grown" industry stuff anyway, so no need to bother with languages
that are easier to integrate.
Martin
--
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
Martin Cracauer <········@bik-gmbh.de> http://www.bik-gmbh.de/~cracauer/
FreeBSD - where you want to go. Today. http://www.freebsd.org/
Some replies which are visible on dejanews have not turned up
on my ISP's newsserver, so I'm responding to them as well.
Ola Rinta-Koski wrote:
>
> Donald Fisk <················@enterprise.net> writes:
> > Michael J Short wrote:
> > > I am finishing a masters module in LISP for AI etc., and I was just
> > > wondering if anybody has any good suggestions about possible job
> > > prospects in which Lisp and AI may be involved?
>
> > For finding a job that is, almost exactly, the wrong
> > qualification.
>
> Depends. I recently turned down a very attractive offer for a job in
> which the major focus would have been programming in Lisp. (Didn't
> want to immigrate after all.) My motto is: I only need one job. Let
> others do what they feel they "have to".
>
> > Perhaps you could emphasize any other experience you gained --
> > Java, C++, Visual Basic, PERL
>
> That's assuming he wants to work with any of those.
It's assuming he wants a job in the UK.
> > Sorry to sound so negative, but that's commercial reality.
>
> No, it isn't. It is for you, though, if you want it to be.
It is for me because I have chosen, for various reasons, to
live in the UK. From your email address, I presume you live in
Finland, where commercial realities may be different.
It gets worse. After many months of being turned down for
job after job (usually no replies, except for American employers
who were very interested in my experience but unwilling to go
through the immigration paperwork), I confronted a job agency
who told me that my Lisp experience actually counted against
me -- i.e. it would have been better if I had been unemployed
instead -- and that most of my Java experience didn't count
as it was gained in my spare time. Not surprisingly, I felt
pretty depressed, much more so than my usual "I think I'll
pack it all in and open a restaurant" sort of depressed.
There may have been other reasons, such as my age (I'm in my early
forties, so am considered over the hill by most employers) and the
fact that I may have been competing with Y2K consultants who were
just made redundant. I got my present job because I was able to
convince my employer that I had *programming experience* (i.e. the
ability to write algorithms well) which was more important than
knowledge of any specific language, that Lisp has heavily influenced
Java (more of which later), that programming in it in my spare time
shows I'm keen, and because I know something about the business in
which the company operates.
I'm afraid Lisp will never be very popular, though it has been/will
continue to be influencial in the same way as Xerox has been influencial
in computing (by developing and licensing to Apple its WIMP OS
interface, which was in turn copied by Microsoft (Windows) and
Linux (various windows managers, e.g. KDE)) without selling many
machines, and the British Liberal Party has been influencial in
politics (by influencing the direction of Labour policy towards
Scottish and Welsh devolution, alternatives to first past the post
electoral systems, and being warmer towards the EU) despite not having
won any general elections in living memory.
Thanks largely to Lisp, Java has garbage collection, previously
frowned upon but now its value is appreciated, a stream tokenizer
(ratom), bignums, classes and methods as first class objects (well,
if you insist 'business class objects' might be a better way of
describing them), the ability to determine an object's class at
runtime, etc. They screwed up on the various collection classes,
which suck compared to Lisp's lists, but then no language is perfect
and Lisp's packages and format strings aren't exactly ideal either
(and linked lists like Lisp offers are a breeze to implement).
I know a few Lispers working for a previous employer, where Lisp
is banned (people should "use a higher productivity tool instead").
Prolog is banned too, for the same stupid reason. One of them
thought that the best that could be hoped for is that more Lisp-
like ideas find their way into Java.
Someone else pointed out that you can write in Lisp and deliver
in C++ (or in Kawa and deliver in Java). That, however, depends
on you keeping the source code. If you work as part of a larger
organization where programming is done in one of those languages,
or if you have to deliver in source code, Lisp won't be acceptable.
Lisp has other barriers -- the cost of adopting something
unfamiliar is high (most programmers have diffulty grasping
recursion never mind higher order functions or series, and the
syntax is strange), the Ratner effect (most people actually
*prefer* crap) and the various misconceptions (that Lisp is of
necessity interpreted, that its only data type is the list,
that it's slow, that it's too large).
Please don't reply that Lisp is the best language currently
available. I *know* that. But if you believe that if
you invent a better mousetrap, the world will beat a
path to your door, I have a dome to sell you.
--
Le Hibou
With regard to Mr Blair's "gut British instinct" --
would that be the same British gut, with "pussy-
hunter" tattooed on it, we saw being repatriated
from Charleroi recently? -- Peter Kenvyn Jones
Donald Fisk <················@enterprise.net> writes:
> > Michael J Short wrote:
> > I am finishing a masters module in LISP for AI etc., and I was just
> > wondering if anybody has any good suggestions about possible job
> > prospects in which Lisp and AI may be involved?
>
> For finding a job that is, almost exactly, the wrong
> qualification.
>
This statement is extreme, and from the rest of Mr. Fisk's postings it
appears to be based on a poor fund of knowledge and some bitter
emotions. It looks like Mr. Fisk is taking his own rather unfortunate
personal experience and projecting it onto everyone else.
To give just one example, KTI (www.ktiworld.com) has a long list of
job vacancies, many of them CL-related, and KTI's main headquarters is
based right smack in the middle of the UK, in Leamington Spa (near
Coventry). Any inability to land a job with them most certainly would
_not_ have to do with having experience and abilities in CL (it may
have to do with being underqualified in other areas, however).
I urge anyone currently considering or actively studying or working in
CL not to be adversely affected by Mr. Fisk's misguided statement and
emotionally draining attitude.
> > > Sorry to sound so negative, but that's commercial reality.
> >
> > No, it isn't. It is for you, though, if you want it to be.
>
> It is for me because I have chosen, for various reasons, to
> live in the UK. From your email address, I presume you live in
> Finland, where commercial realities may be different.
>
That sounds like a mighty good cop-out: "CL is commercially accepted
everywhere in the world except on the island where I happen to live."
>
> It gets worse. After many months of being turned down for
> job after job (usually no replies, except for American employers
> who were very interested in my experience but unwilling to go
> through the immigration paperwork)
>
I can identify with them.
>
> I confronted a job agency who told me that my Lisp experience
> actually counted against me -- i.e. it would have been better
> if I had been unemployed instead
>
You "confronted" them? Wouldn't it have been more productive to engage
them in a positive manner rather than "confronting" them?
In any case, this is preposterous. I can only imagine how you must
have stated your CL experience to elicit such a negative response --
focusing on the perceived "obscure tool" rather than your actual
problem-solving abilities, perhaps? The agency robot you "confronted"
probably had a checklist of mainstream languages/skills, on which
"Lisp" did not appear, and simply followed a knee-jerk, scripted
response. He is paid his commisions simply to "connect the dots" and
doesn't know a thing beyond what is on his sheet -- if he doesn't come
up with an easy match, you are just wasting his time (and yours).
>
> and that most of my Java experience didn't count
> as it was gained in my spare time. Not surprisingly, I felt
> pretty depressed, much more so than my usual "I think I'll
> pack it all in and open a restaurant" sort of depressed.
>
Maybe you are missing your calling. Most people don't open restaurants
out of depression. Maybe your true subconscious desires are coming
out!
>
> There may have been other reasons, such as my age (I'm in my early
> forties, so am considered over the hill by most employers) and the
> fact that I may have been competing with Y2K consultants who were
> just made redundant.
>
Could it possibly have had anything to do with your dysfunctional
attitude?
>
> I'm afraid Lisp will never be very popular
>
Saying things like this is like trying to predict the weather or the
stock market.
>
> I know a few Lispers working for a previous employer, where Lisp
> is banned (people should "use a higher productivity tool instead").
>
Who gave this employer the impression that CL is a low-productivity
tool??
-dave
--
David J. Cooper Jr, Chief Engineer Genworks International
·······@genworks.com 5777 West Maple, Suite 130
(248) 932-2512 (Genworks HQ/voicemail) West Bloomfield, MI 48322-2268
(248) 407-0633 (pager) http://www.genworks.com
"David J. Cooper" wrote:
>
> Donald Fisk <················@enterprise.net> writes:
> > > Michael J Short wrote:
> > > I am finishing a masters module in LISP for AI etc., and I was just
> > > wondering if anybody has any good suggestions about possible job
> > > prospects in which Lisp and AI may be involved?
> >
> > For finding a job that is, almost exactly, the wrong
> > qualification.
> >
>
> This statement is extreme, and from the rest of Mr. Fisk's postings it
> appears to be based on a poor fund of knowledge and some bitter
> emotions. It looks like Mr. Fisk is taking his own rather unfortunate
> personal experience and projecting it onto everyone else.
No, I don't particularly want to see the original poster painting
himself into a corner with his career, as I almost did. He's free
to ignore my advice. He might, though, realize that universities
are not just sausage factories for industry -- they're places where
you learn to think -- and a good employer will value his knowledge
even if it's unrelated to the work he ends up doing. I'm not working
as
an astronomer or a telecommunications engineer (my degree subjects).
I didn't seriously expect to get a job as an astronomer. Perhaps
attitudes have changed now that students have to pay their own fees,
though.
> To give just one example, KTI (www.ktiworld.com) has a long list of
> job vacancies, many of them CL-related,
Couldn't find jobs on their web site. You just have to flick through
the job ads to see what's wanted -- C, C++, Java, VB, PERL.
> and KTI's main headquarters is
> based right smack in the middle of the UK, in Leamington Spa (near
> Coventry).
It's based in the USA, and the research and development is done in
the USA. They have an subsidiary in the UK which in the absence
of any information to the contrary could be just a sales office, for
all I know.
> Any inability to land a job with them most certainly would
> _not_ have to do with having experience and abilities in CL (it may
> have to do with being underqualified in other areas, however).
>
> I urge anyone currently considering or actively studying or working in
> CL not to be adversely affected by Mr. Fisk's misguided statement and
> emotionally draining attitude.
It's called realism.
> > > > Sorry to sound so negative, but that's commercial reality.
> > >
> > > No, it isn't. It is for you, though, if you want it to be.
> >
> > It is for me because I have chosen, for various reasons, to
> > live in the UK. From your email address, I presume you live in
> > Finland, where commercial realities may be different.
> >
>
> That sounds like a mighty good cop-out: "CL is commercially accepted
> everywhere in the world except on the island where I happen to live."
I happen to live here. You happen to live in the USA and so
may be out of touch with what's going on here, particularly employer's
attitudes. Lisp has never been big over here. Prolog was the
main AI language when AI was still hot.
I've never been to Finland. Attitudes to Lisp there might be
more positive, as they appear to be in Norway and Sweden.
> > It gets worse. After many months of being turned down for
> > job after job (usually no replies, except for American employers
> > who were very interested in my experience but unwilling to go
> > through the immigration paperwork)
> >
>
> I can identify with them.
>
> >
> > I confronted a job agency who told me that my Lisp experience
> > actually counted against me -- i.e. it would have been better
> > if I had been unemployed instead
> >
>
> You "confronted" them? Wouldn't it have been more productive to engage
> them in a positive manner rather than "confronting" them?
I did -- they said they'd put my name forward for various Java/C
openings (they didn't have any Lisp ones). I heard nothing, so I
discussed it with them. Perhaps confronting was too strong a word.
I like reasons for rejections, so that I can modify job searching
strategies heuristically.
> In any case, this is preposterous. I can only imagine how you must
> have stated your CL experience to elicit such a negative response --
> focusing on the perceived "obscure tool" rather than your actual
> problem-solving abilities, perhaps? The agency robot you "confronted"
> probably had a checklist of mainstream languages/skills, on which
> "Lisp" did not appear, and simply followed a knee-jerk, scripted
> response. He
She. I'd never assume anyone was any particular sex. One of my
ex-colleagues (then a Prolog developer) went ballistic, and quite right
too, when someone dropped by at our office and assumed she was the
secretary.
> is paid his commisions simply to "connect the dots" and
> doesn't know a thing beyond what is on his sheet -- if he doesn't come
> up with an easy match, you are just wasting his time (and yours).
The last one that went out of her way to help -- around five years ago
-- used to hire people for AI/KBS type work and the last I'd heard of
her
she had abandoned this and was recruiting people with OO experience.
> > and that most of my Java experience didn't count
> > as it was gained in my spare time. Not surprisingly, I felt
> > pretty depressed, much more so than my usual "I think I'll
> > pack it all in and open a restaurant" sort of depressed.
> >
>
> Maybe you are missing your calling. Most people don't open restaurants
> out of depression. Maybe your true subconscious desires are coming
> out!
Most people aren't any good at cooking. Then again that never stopped
Colonel Sanders -- the Ratner effect again.
> > There may have been other reasons, such as my age (I'm in my early
> > forties, so am considered over the hill by most employers) and the
> > fact that I may have been competing with Y2K consultants who were
> > just made redundant.
> >
>
> Could it possibly have had anything to do with your dysfunctional
> attitude?
Subconscious desires? Dysfunctional? You're trying to sound like
a psychiatrist. Treating someone you disagree with as mentally
ill was the done thing in the Soviet Union.
Maybe I'm not a "good team player", or an "Organization Man".
However, my technical skills have never been in doubt, and the
little people management I've done (supervision of three people,
including recruitment of two of them) got me nothing but praise.
Perhaps if you vented your spleen on the people responsible for
the state of things instead of me -- those who predicted phenomenal
progress for AI before anything was working reliably, and those
journalists who fed around AI's corpse, and those PHBs who never
gave AI the time to prove itself and those PHBs who consider the
means, rather than the end, as important.
> > I'm afraid Lisp will never be very popular
> >
>
> Saying things like this is like trying to predict the weather or the
> stock market.
No, it's accurate. I *am* afraid Lisp will never be very popular.
My fear might, of course be unjustified, but I'm not holding my
breath. It's true to say that in the 1980s there were five Lisp
machine manufacturers. Two went bust, two got out of AI and I
don't know the fate of the other one. There were several companies
selling Lisp, now only one, and you won't find the word "Lisp"
anywhere on the front of the pack its product comes in (It's rumoured,
perhaps maliciously, that a few people bought it thinking it was C++.)
And there were dozens of companies selling expert system shells, and
knowledge engineering expertise. Now there are hardly any. I
can't see the situation reversing and the only reason it prevailed
in the 1980s was because of a perceived economic threat from Japan.
There are of course successes, but the press aren't interested in
them. The day Deep Space One (controlled almost entirely by Lisp
code) was launched, the news was full of John Glen, the oldest man
in space. Ion drives and distributed AI just don't have any
human interest.
> > I know a few Lispers working for a previous employer, where Lisp
> > is banned (people should "use a higher productivity tool instead").
> >
>
> Who gave this employer the impression that CL is a low-productivity
> tool??
Certainly not me.
I don't know the particular eejit, as they didn't sign their name
to the dirty deed. I raised the issue with my boss, who told me I
shouldn't make a fuss about it, as I could use Lisp as long as it
was just for research purposes and never destined for a real customer.
> -dave
--
Le Hibou
With regard to Mr Blair's "gut British instinct" --
would that be the same British gut, with "pussy-
hunter" tattooed on it, we saw being repatriated
from Charleroi recently? -- Peter Kenvyn Jones
Donald Fisk <················@enterprise.net> writes:
>
> No, I don't particularly want to see the original poster painting
> himself into a corner with his career, as I almost did. He's free
> to ignore my advice.
>
By saying your statement was "extreme," I am requesting that you use a
more balanced tone. Realize that everything posted here goes out to
the entire planet and, in a subtle way, can influence the very things
you are trying to describe. Yes, your statement and the aggregate of
statements like it can act as self-fulfilling prophesies of sorts.
You could have given the original poster a simple "heads-up," telling
him that finding a job in pure CL and AI may prove elusive, he may
have to be a bit creative, persistent, etc. if he is really
enthusiastic about working in CL in the UK. But a statement which
carries the tone of "You have just completed studying exactly the
wrong thing if you ever want to find a job" is just plain
irresponsible.
>
> Couldn't find jobs on their web site. You just have to flick through
> the job ads to see what's wanted -- C, C++, Java, VB, PERL.
>
Their jobs link is near the lower right corner of their main page.
> > and KTI's main headquarters is
> > based right smack in the middle of the UK, in Leamington Spa (near
> > Coventry).
>
> It's based in the USA...
>
Incorrect.
> They have an subsidiary in the UK which in the absence of any
> information to the contrary could be just a sales office, for all I
> know.
>
And "for all you know" they could be looking for 15 CL developers to
staff a huge new project at British Aerospace. But you've already made
clear that you are not actually interested in finding out things like
this.
>
> Subconscious desires? Dysfunctional? You're trying to sound like a
> psychiatrist. Treating someone you disagree with as mentally ill
> was the done thing in the Soviet Union.
>
Sorry. I didn't mean to try to treat you as mentally ill. Hyperbole on
my part.
>
> Perhaps if you vented your spleen on the people responsible for
> the state of things instead of me --
>
Sorry, I'm really not doing this to vent. I'm doing it because some of
your statements were simply screaming out to be tempered.
> > > I'm afraid Lisp will never be very popular
> > >
> >
> > Saying things like this is like trying to predict the weather or the
> > stock market.
>
> No, it's accurate. I *am* afraid Lisp will never be very popular.
>
Ok ok. I meant, "saying 'Lisp will never be popular' is like trying to
predict the weather or the stock market. Your fear of something is a
different matter indeed.
>
> There were several companies selling Lisp, now only one
>
Franz Inc.?
Xanalys? (in your country, and apparently still ticking...)
Corman?
Digitool?
Symbolics?
Have these all secretly merged into one company? At least one of the
free implementations seems to be picking up steam lately too.
>
> and you won't find the word "Lisp" anywhere on the front of the pack
> its product comes in
>
Good. I prefer the name "CL" or "ANSI CL" anyway. Saying just "Lisp"
has connotations of some kind of impediment or handicap. For marketing
purposes, that name should have been jettisoned ages ago.
-dave
--
David J. Cooper Jr, Chief Engineer Genworks International
·······@genworks.com 5777 West Maple, Suite 130
(248) 932-2512 (Genworks HQ/voicemail) West Bloomfield, MI 48322-2268
(248) 407-0633 (pager) http://www.genworks.com
·······@genworks.com (David J. Cooper) writes:
> Donald Fisk <················@enterprise.net> writes:
<snip>
> >
> > Couldn't find jobs on their web site. You just have to flick through
> > the job ads to see what's wanted -- C, C++, Java, VB, PERL.
> >
>
> Their jobs link is near the lower right corner of their main page.
A lisp job link is:
http://www.ktiworld.com/about_kti/job_opportunities.cgi?code=DEV-LIS-M-11
Unlike say the software engineer posting which they explictly state is
in Amherst MA (with probably a USA stuck on the end there) the lisp
job has no location specified.
And they want you to know flavors :-)
cheers
bruce
--
Reality is 80m polygons - Alvy Ray Smith
Bruce O'Neel - ·······@mindspring.com
http://homepage.iprolink.ch/~bioneel/beo/beo.html - daily stuff
From: Peter Vaneynde
Subject: How to find Lisp jobs. Was: Re: jobs using lisp and AI???
Date:
Message-ID: <6x66nggad5.fsf_-_@lant.be>
·······@genworks.com (David J. Cooper) writes:
> Donald Fisk <················@enterprise.net> writes:
...
> > Couldn't find jobs on their web site. You just have to flick through
> > the job ads to see what's wanted -- C, C++, Java, VB, PERL.
Find Lisp jobs can be hard. Not because there aren't any 'out there',
but because there is little demand for Lisp skill compared to VB
skills.
'little' is relative of couse. I know quite a few companies that _are_
looking for people doing Lisp. The problem is that those companies
are not very public about this information, for a variety of reasons,
some trivial, some more complex. And because the number of lispers is
limited they seem to think that asking normal companies, or doing
job-ads is just not an efficient solution. Most of the time they seem to
search for people with related experience and train them
themselves... So _high_ and _urgent_ is the need for lisp hackers!
The problem you, as Lisp hacker, wanting a job, is finding those
companies. This is where the small number of lisp hackers are an
advantage: email them and ask if they or their companies have a need
for a lisper, or they know people who do. Go to the websites of
lisp-related companies. Franz for instance has (hidden deep inside
their web-page, without references to it in the 'what's new' section)
a list of open lisp positions. I know of at least 5 people in the
Benelux I could ask for a job. And I know of at least 3 open
positions...
Last but not least: try the online job markets. I went to one, tried
the usual keywords 'unix', 'C++' and then just for fun 'Lisp'. I was
stunned there were hits... Also try related keywords, like 'Clos',
'functional programming' etc.
IMHO lisp.org and lisp.de should be used to create more of a community
of lisp hackers and the companies that employ them...
Now I just need to find out how to become a consultant doing
interesting lisp hacking like Erik...
> And "for all you know" they could be looking for 15 CL developers to
> staff a huge new project at British Aerospace. But you've already made
> clear that you are not actually interested in finding out things like
> this.
Actively emailing and calling is the best way to get a job IMHO...
> > and you won't find the word "Lisp" anywhere on the front of the pack
> > its product comes in
> >
>
> Good. I prefer the name "CL" or "ANSI CL" anyway. Saying just "Lisp"
> has connotations of some kind of impediment or handicap. For marketing
> purposes, that name should have been jettisoned ages ago.
For an example see the most recent linux-journal, page 16. Now if the
people across the pond would just say [klos] instead of [see-los]... :-)
Groetjes, Peter
Note that I'm not speaking for or about Lant in any way or form.
--
LANT nv/sa, Research Park Haasrode, Interleuvenlaan 15H, B-3001 Leuven
·····················@lant.be Phone: ++32 16 405140
http://www.lant.be/ Fax: ++32 16 404961
From: Fernando Rodr�guez
Subject: Will be: The Lisp Programming journal Was: Re: How to find Lisp jobs. Was: Re: jobs using lisp and AI???
Date:
Message-ID: <bdk6tsojaiebofjsi5bqjq8088tqmc9cue@4ax.com>
On Thu, 28 Sep 2000 09:07:26 GMT, Peter Vaneynde
<··············@lant.be> wrote:
>IMHO lisp.org and lisp.de should be used to create more of a community
>of lisp hackers and the companies that employ them...
The problem with lisp.org and and lisp.de is that they seem to be a
good resource to first time newbies, but I think that most lisp
hackers don't visit it often. The info there is usually too basic.
Perhaps it would be a good idea (considering that there's no
publication devoted to Lisp (AFAIK)) to start an ezine; something like
the Perl Programming Journal (damn, even the Perl laborers have a
magazine! ;-)
A practical, down on Earth magazine could probably be much more useful
to create a community. I might be a worthless newbie ;-), but there's
people here that could provide quality content, showing examples of
Lisp solutions to real world problems. The web applications market,
for example, looks like a great niche for CL, and many posters of this
NG have experience in it.
>Now I just need to find out how to become a consultant doing
>interesting lisp hacking like Erik...
This could make a good article too. :-)
//-----------------------------------------------
// Fernando Rodriguez Romero
//
// frr at mindless dot com
//------------------------------------------------
From: Peter Vaneynde
Subject: Re: Will be: The Lisp Programming journal Was: Re: How to find Lisp jobs. Was: Re: jobs using lisp and AI???
Date:
Message-ID: <6xya0bd137.fsf@lant.be>
Fernando Rodr�guez <·······@must.die> writes:
> On Thu, 28 Sep 2000 09:07:26 GMT, Peter Vaneynde
> The problem with lisp.org and and lisp.de is that they seem to be a
> good resource to first time newbies, but I think that most lisp
> hackers don't visit it often. The info there is usually too basic.
And a little static. Cliki seems better suited as a bag-of-info.
> Perhaps it would be a good idea (considering that there's no
> publication devoted to Lisp (AFAIK)) to start an ezine; something like
> the Perl Programming Journal (damn, even the Perl laborers have a
> magazine! ;-)
You're proposing yourself as editor? :-)
> >Now I just need to find out how to become a consultant doing
> >interesting lisp hacking like Erik...
>
> This could make a good article too. :-)
Am I the only one who _really_ enjoyed reading his "A Long, Painful
history of time" @ http://www.naggum.no/lugm-time.html ?
Groetjes, Peter
--
LANT nv/sa, Research Park Haasrode, Interleuvenlaan 15H, B-3001 Leuven
·····················@lant.be Phone: ++32 16 405140
http://www.lant.be/ Fax: ++32 16 404961
From: Daniel Barlow
Subject: Re: Will be: The Lisp Programming journal Was: Re: How to find Lisp jobs. Was: Re: jobs using lisp and AI???
Date:
Message-ID: <87snqig8kg.fsf@tninkpad.telent.net>
Peter Vaneynde <··············@lant.be> writes:
> And a little static. Cliki seems better suited as a bag-of-info.
I'm glad that people actually found CLiki useful. The good news is
that it should be back on the net - with luck - sometime this weekend.
The machine which used to host it is presently sitting by my foot
having ext3 installed on it, and will be back in service imminentlyish.
I'm wondering if "distributed cliki" would be a fun project. Multiple
editable sites and <wave limb=hand>some kind of conflict resolution
mechanism</wave> for when people make updates on more than one
simultaneously ...
-dan
--
http://ww.telent.net/cliki/ - CLiki: be right back
From: Pierre R. Mai
Subject: Re: Will be: The Lisp Programming journal Was: Re: How to find Lisp jobs. Was: Re: jobs using lisp and AI???
Date:
Message-ID: <877l7u13m7.fsf@orion.bln.pmsf.de>
Daniel Barlow <···@telent.net> writes:
> Peter Vaneynde <··············@lant.be> writes:
>
> > And a little static. Cliki seems better suited as a bag-of-info.
>
> I'm glad that people actually found CLiki useful. The good news is
Indeed it is. Currently CLiki seems to be the best source of
up-to-date information on available CL packages and libraries, an area
where CL is otherwise sorely lacking compared to some other
languages. While I've found the quality of CL packages to be
generally higher than those of certain other languages, it is often
difficult to find out about their existence. CLiki has filled an
important void in this area, and I'd like to take this opportunity to
thank you for your efforts in creating and maintaining CLiki...
> I'm wondering if "distributed cliki" would be a fun project. Multiple
> editable sites and <wave limb=hand>some kind of conflict resolution
> mechanism</wave> for when people make updates on more than one
> simultaneously ...
I'm sure it would be an interesting project, but given my experience
with trying to keep distributed data sources in sync, I wouldn't call
it "fun" ;)
Regs, Pierre.
--
Pierre R. Mai <····@acm.org> http://www.pmsf.de/pmai/
The most likely way for the world to be destroyed, most experts agree,
is by accident. That's where we come in; we're computer professionals.
We cause accidents. -- Nathaniel Borenstein
From: Gareth McCaughan
Subject: Re: Will be: The Lisp Programming journal Was: Re: How to find Lisp jobs. Was: Re: jobs using lisp and AI???
Date:
Message-ID: <slrn8t90ov.e0j.Gareth.McCaughan@g.local>
Peter Vaneynde wrote:
> Am I the only one who _really_ enjoyed reading his "A Long, Painful
> history of time" @ http://www.naggum.no/lugm-time.html ?
No.
--
Gareth McCaughan ················@pobox.com
sig under construc
From: Duane Rettig
Subject: Re: How to find Lisp jobs. Was: Re: jobs using lisp and AI???
Date:
Message-ID: <43dikmvej.fsf@beta.franz.com>
Peter Vaneynde <··············@lant.be> writes:
> Franz for instance has (hidden deep inside
> their web-page, without references to it in the 'what's new' section)
> a list of open lisp positions.
It's not at all true that it's hidden (at least, that's certainly not the
intention). It's possible that your browser doesn't show the buttons
down the left side, but the one labelled "Careers" is the one to look
at. Though it is the last of 7 similar buttons, our intention has been
to get you to any major portion of our site in only a couple of clicks.
Or perhaps it is the name "Careers" that is misleading? Just like
Linus (the Peanuts one) says: "I love mankind, it's people I can't stand",
perhaps the phrase here should be "I'm not looking for a career, I just
want a job".
--
Duane Rettig Franz Inc. http://www.franz.com/ (www)
1995 University Ave Suite 275 Berkeley, CA 94704
Phone: (510) 548-3600; FAX: (510) 548-8253 ·····@Franz.COM (internet)
From: Thomas A. Russ
Subject: Re: How to find Lisp jobs. Was: Re: jobs using lisp and AI???
Date:
Message-ID: <ymi3dik5tmw.fsf@sevak.isi.edu>
Duane Rettig <·····@franz.com> writes:
> Or perhaps it is the name "Careers" that is misleading?
I suppose that it could be misinterpreted as meaning
"Careers at Franz, Inc."
rather than
"Careers using Lisp programming"
maybe "Lisp Careers" or "Lisp Jobs" would be clearer.
--
Thomas A. Russ, USC/Information Sciences Institute ···@isi.edu
From: Duane Rettig
Subject: Re: How to find Lisp jobs. Was: Re: jobs using lisp and AI???
Date:
Message-ID: <41yy4m5xd.fsf@beta.franz.com>
···@sevak.isi.edu (Thomas A. Russ) writes:
> Duane Rettig <·····@franz.com> writes:
>
> > Or perhaps it is the name "Careers" that is misleading?
>
> I suppose that it could be misinterpreted as meaning
>
> "Careers at Franz, Inc."
>
> rather than
>
> "Careers using Lisp programming"
>
> maybe "Lisp Careers" or "Lisp Jobs" would be clearer.
>
> --
> Thomas A. Russ, USC/Information Sciences Institute ···@isi.edu
Good point; I've passed the word along internally ...
--
Duane Rettig Franz Inc. http://www.franz.com/ (www)
1995 University Ave Suite 275 Berkeley, CA 94704
Phone: (510) 548-3600; FAX: (510) 548-8253 ·····@Franz.COM (internet)
In article <·················@enterprise.net>, Donald Fisk
<················@enterprise.net> wrote:
> I happen to live here. You happen to live in the USA and so
> may be out of touch with what's going on here, particularly employer's
> attitudes. Lisp has never been big over here. Prolog was the
> main AI language when AI was still hot.
Well, a GB had their share in Lisp Implementations:
Procyon Common Lisp (which later became ACL on Windows)
LispWorks
EuLisp
and some others I'm too lazy to look up. I still have
some flyers from "EuroPAL" (Practical Applications of Lisp),
etc.
--
Rainer Joswig, Hamburg, Germany
Email: ·············@corporate-world.lisp.de
Web: http://corporate-world.lisp.de/
Rainer Joswig <······@corporate-world.lisp.de> writes:
> and some others I'm too lazy to look up. I still have
Don't forget poplog!
I've met a lot of UK lisp hackers and must say I'm puzzled by the
picture that was drawn of lisp in UK. The prolog/lisp ratio is of
course quite different from the US one, but I think this is generally
the fact in Europe. Edinburgh is famous for its prolog, but so is
swedish SICS...
--
(espen)
In article <··············@wallace.ws.nextra.no>,
Espen Vestre <·····@*do-not-spam-me*.vestre.net> wrote:
> I've met a lot of UK lisp hackers and must say I'm puzzled by the
> picture that was drawn of lisp in UK.
http://www.jobstats.co.uk
explains a lot of the problems to me. There are too few lisp jobs
that pay too little. Look at the contract rates for Java.
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
A handful of misperceptions need clearing up here:
In article <·················@enterprise.net>,
Donald Fisk <················@enterprise.net> wrote:
>[...] There were several companies
>selling Lisp, now only one, and you won't find the word "Lisp"
>anywhere on the front of the pack its product comes in (It's rumoured,
>perhaps maliciously, that a few people bought it thinking it was C++.)
I know of at least three companies selling Lisp: Franz, Xanalys (sp?),
and Digitool. (Is Venue still active?) So far as I know, all of them
are quite forthright about selling Lisp.
>And there were dozens of companies selling expert system shells, and
>knowledge engineering expertise. Now there are hardly any. [...]
Intellicorp and Inference are still around, as far as I know. Expert
systems don't seem to be very popular these days, this is true, and I
think it's largely because they are damned difficult to implement
correctly.
>There are of course successes, but the press aren't interested in
>them. The day Deep Space One (controlled almost entirely by Lisp
>code) was launched, the news was full of John Glen, the oldest man
>in space. [...]
There are two mistakes in this paragraph. First, it's John *Glenn*.
Second, Deep Space One was *not* "controlled almost entirely by Lisp
code" -- the Remote Agent software only ran for a couple of days, as an
experiment, because NASA project managers (even for a "technology
validation" mission) are extremely conservative and "success-oriented",
and because quite frankly we weren't ready to run the whole mission. It
takes more than AI to successfully fly a spacecraft, it takes a deep
knowledge of space flight; and as a bunch of computer science
researchers, we lacked that deep domain knowledge.
-- Chuck, definitely speaking only for himself
--
Chuck Fry -- Jack of all trades, master of none
······@chucko.com (text only please) ········@home.com (MIME enabled)
Lisp bigot, car nut, photographer, sometime guitarist and mountain biker
The addresses above are real. All spammers will be reported to their ISPs.
······@best.com (Chuck Fry) writes:
> I know of at least three companies selling Lisp: Franz, Xanalys (sp?),
> and Digitool. (Is Venue still active?) So far as I know, all of them
> are quite forthright about selling Lisp.
They have a web page still:
http://Top2bottom.net/venue.html
--
T. Kurt Bond, ···@tkb.mpl.com
Donald Fisk <················@enterprise.net> writes:
> I've never been to Finland. Attitudes to Lisp there might be
> more positive, as they appear to be in Norway and Sweden.
The attitude here is that if something needs to be done, it should.
The most recent Lisp program I wrote for production use was born out
of necessity. It had been assigned to a Perl programmer for months,
with no result. We were in a hurry to have it working, so I wrote it
in Common Lisp, despite the fact that there wasn't any tradition of
CL programming at the company. It is still running at the company
day in, day out.
--
Some people just prove that human procreation is too cheap.
-- Erik Naggum
Donald Fisk <················@enterprise.net> writes:
[...]
>> > Perhaps you could emphasize any other experience you gained --
>> > Java, C++, Visual Basic, PERL
>>
>> That's assuming he wants to work with any of those.
>It's assuming he wants a job in the UK.
That may in fact be a problem. I gained the impression that the
U.S. are *way* ahead in effective IT recruitment in this age of too
few programmers. In my case, German management is rather helpless and
takes excetly the wrong steps, making the problem worse. Narrowing
down to "proven techniques" is such a step: It raises the rate of
employer change, it doesn't offer enough for the developers to be
proud of and it further raises prices. In the U.S., there seem to be
a number of companie who are creative in dealing with the problem.
[...]
>It gets worse. After many months of being turned down for
>job after job (usually no replies, except for American employers
>who were very interested in my experience but unwilling to go
>through the immigration paperwork),
You could do the paperwork almost yourself. It costs about $1400 to a
lawyer that gets your H1B with few few assitance of the company
required. The drawback of course is that a H1B is for one job only
and that's the reason that the company pays for it in the ussual case,
but if that's really the only problem, you can solve it.
>I confronted a job agency
>who told me that my Lisp experience actually counted against
>me -- i.e. it would have been better if I had been unemployed
>instead -- and that most of my Java experience didn't count
>as it was gained in my spare time.
Most competent headhunters (besides the >90% that are complete idiots)
have no business dealing with *any* special skills. They are part of
the circle of fleeing to "proved" techniques and then get into a
circle of raises and stealing employees. I've yet to see a Lisp/AI
company calling a normal headhunter. Even the Unix/OpenSource
companies avoid them like the plague. I received a few Unix-based
OpenSource-related job offering and the first or the last sentense of
*each* of them was "I'm not a professional recruitment company" or "I
just work for this company, not others".
By no means I say that recruitment companies have to be bad and I
personally met some that a serious. But most the kind of jobs we
discuss here are as far removed from their skills as hiring the room
cleaners is.
People, the strength of the Lisp community is that it actually *is* a
fine-graded networked community. Speak to other Lisp people,
participiate in Lisp projects (OpenSource Software, Websites,
Documentation), go to Lisp meetings, take part in discussions that
define Lisp APIs. Just keep in touch and don't loose your focus.
It's useless to meet someone three times and every time you have a new
pet.
> Not surprisingly, I felt
>pretty depressed, much more so than my usual "I think I'll
>pack it all in and open a restaurant" sort of depressed.
From time to time, I also regretted not having enough guitar practice
in my youth, for sure :-) But on the other hand, musicians (and
restaurant owners) are constantly screwed by unfriendly powerful being
as well, so what...
I'd like to summarize my answer to the rest of your paragraphs as
follows:
- Some comapnies you enountered are just stupid. 90% of people may be
stupid, but the percentage in comapanies is even higher, so that's
no surprise.
- Java didn't fail when people realized that Java will never deliver
performing applications. But Sun nontheless managed to kill it with
their "interesting" licensing and standardization issues.
- Lisp will keep it niche, thanks to The Web and Sun's Java policy.
Martin
--
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
Martin Cracauer <········@bik-gmbh.de> http://www.bik-gmbh.de/~cracauer/
FreeBSD - where you want to go. Today. http://www.freebsd.org/
········@counter.bik-gmbh.de (Martin Cracauer) writes:
on the dange of going off-topic
> Donald Fisk <················@enterprise.net> writes:
> [...]
> >> > Perhaps you could emphasize any other experience you gained --
> >> > Java, C++, Visual Basic, PERL
> >>
> >> That's assuming he wants to work with any of those.
>
> >It's assuming he wants a job in the UK.
>
> That may in fact be a problem. I gained the impression that the
> U.S. are *way* ahead in effective IT recruitment in this age of too
> few programmers. In my case, German management is rather helpless and
> takes excetly the wrong steps, making the problem worse.
What do you mean by this? Why is German managment more helpless than
others. I got the impression that the problems are equal, the
advantage of US is to some extend just that "it's the promised land"
for programmers and that they are paying extremly much.
Regards
Friedrich
--
for e-mail reply remove all after .com
Friedrich Dominicus <·····@q-software-solutions.com> writes:
>········@counter.bik-gmbh.de (Martin Cracauer) writes:
>on the dange of going off-topic
>> Donald Fisk <················@enterprise.net> writes:
>> [...]
>> >> > Perhaps you could emphasize any other experience you gained --
>> >> > Java, C++, Visual Basic, PERL
>> >>
>> >> That's assuming he wants to work with any of those.
>>
>> >It's assuming he wants a job in the UK.
>>
>> That may in fact be a problem. I gained the impression that the
>> U.S. are *way* ahead in effective IT recruitment in this age of too
>> few programmers. In my case, German management is rather helpless and
>> takes excetly the wrong steps, making the problem worse.
>What do you mean by this? Why is German managment more helpless than
>others. I got the impression that the problems are equal, the
>advantage of US is to some extend just that "it's the promised land"
>for programmers and that they are paying extremly much.
It is my impression that in Germany, a larger percentage of companies
follows this scheme:
- Use "standard" tools exclusivly, so that many people know these
tools.
- pay high and use many headhunters.
- grab all the people claiming to be confident with these tool, no
matter what. Testing of candidates does not happen. "They will
learn".
- Any means to grant job satisfaction are considered not the be the
business of the employer.
The result is that the few capable programmers in such companies are
faced with a bunch of idiots in their teams, get nowhere with the
project and take the next opportunity to leave.
The few companies who invest some brain into this process seem all to
be in the U.S. (and I mean all):
- Employ after testing. Smaller teams are easily more productive.
- Try to "bid" something more than money: Capable colleques and other
"job satisfaction" gems. May include using special tools and/or
give more freedom in choice of tools.
- Using the tools that most people know doesn't neccessarily raise the
number of needed/available people for this tool. Simple math.
I would easily believe that the rate of such companies in the US is
below 0.1% or whatever, but in Germany it is virtually nil.
The money bids of German companies I have seen were not clearly below
that of US companies I have seen. Comparision is difficult since some
things are cheaper in Europe (and in some regions of the US more
expensive than in other regions of the US) and the value of the stock
options in the US bids is hard to tell. Playing games with the
normally high European taxes in combination with buying buildings
etc. adds more variation. Heck, I even know people investing more
brain in (successfully) saving taxes than in earning the moeny.
Many programmer friends of mine left Germany towards the US, but most
of them for the job, not the country.
Martin
--
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
Martin Cracauer <········@bik-gmbh.de> http://www.bik-gmbh.de/~cracauer/
FreeBSD - where you want to go. Today. http://www.freebsd.org/
Donald Fisk wrote:
> But if you believe that if you invent a better mousetrap, the world will beat a
> path to your door, I have a dome to sell you.
How much? I have a leaky porch that requires some teflon coated fabric
to protect it from North Sea winter gales.
;) will
On Wed, 27 Sep 2000 00:22:13 +0100, Donald Fisk
<················@enterprise.net> wrote:
> It gets worse. After many months of being turned down for
> job after job (usually no replies, except for American employers
[...]
> There may have been other reasons, such as my age (I'm in my early
> forties, so am considered over the hill by most employers) and the
If you would like to use Lisp, you might consider self-employement, i.e.
starting your own consulting/contract programming business. Identify small
companies in your area that might benefit from applications you are able to
develop, then offer your services to those companies. Start spreading the
voice among friends and relatives.
It's amazing how many people outside of the computer business don't know
about Lisp--or Java, for that matter--and don't care what tool you use, as
long as the software you offer to deliver solves an important problem.
Paolo
--
EncyCMUCLopedia * Extensive collection of CMU Common Lisp documentation
http://cvs2.cons.org:8000/cmucl/doc/EncyCMUCLopedia/
Paolo Amoroso wrote:
> Identify small companies in your area that might benefit from applications you
> are able to develop, then offer your services to those companies.
Why small companies? There are medium and large companies in the UK,
even, that use cl -- such as the burgeoning telecoms industries -- its
just that they are a touch shy about discussing the technologies they
use.
On Thu, 28 Sep 2000 15:45:56 GMT, William Deakin <········@pindar.com>
wrote:
> Why small companies? There are medium and large companies in the UK,
To start a consulting business, I think that dealing with small companies
is easier because:
- there are plenty to choose from, everywhere
- this might be an untapped niche (everybody wants Fortune 500 customers :)
- you get more chances to skip several layers of management and talk with
the owner(s) himself(themselves), discuss your ideas and establish trust
Paolo
--
EncyCMUCLopedia * Extensive collection of CMU Common Lisp documentation
http://cvs2.cons.org:8000/cmucl/doc/EncyCMUCLopedia/
Paolo wrote:
> To start a consulting business, I think that dealing with small companies
> is easier because:
>
> - there are plenty to choose from, everywhere
> - this might be an untapped niche (everybody wants Fortune 500 customers :)
> - you get more chances to skip several layers of management and talk with
> the owner(s) himself(themselves), discuss your ideas and establish trust
Sure. No argument there. I suppose all I was trying to say was to not
rule out medium sized or large out of hand. For example, a medium size
(500+) flange building company may have a support/development department
of only 10, and who are crying out for somebody to developing an optimal
flange layout tool, say.
Also, this can then comes down to stuff like networking...for it is not
always what you know, but who you know...
;)will
William Deakin wrote:
>
> Paolo Amoroso wrote:
> > Identify small companies in your area that might benefit from applications you
> > are able to develop, then offer your services to those companies.
>
> Why small companies? There are medium and large companies in the UK,
> even, that use cl -- such as the burgeoning telecoms industries -- its
> just that they are a touch shy about discussing the technologies they
> use.
The largest UK telecomms employer has banned the use of Lisp
(despite a successful project which used CLOS), and the
others aren't large enough to support sizeable R&D efforts.
I'd try some other industry sector instead.
--
Le Hibou
With regard to Mr Blair's "gut British instinct" --
would that be the same British gut, with "pussy-
hunter" tattooed on it, we saw being repatriated
from Charleroi recently? -- Peter Kenvyn Jones
Donald Fisk wrote:
> The largest UK telecomms employer has banned the use of Lisp
> (despite a successful project which used CLOS),
Something they may come to regret given time.
> and the others aren't large enough to support sizeable R&D efforts.
This presupposes that lisp can only be used for r&d...
:)will
Paolo Amoroso <·······@mclink.it> writes:
> On Wed, 27 Sep 2000 00:22:13 +0100, Donald Fisk
> <················@enterprise.net> wrote:
>
> > It gets worse. After many months of being turned down for
> > job after job (usually no replies, except for American employers
> [...]
> > There may have been other reasons, such as my age (I'm in my early
> > forties, so am considered over the hill by most employers) and the
>
> If you would like to use Lisp, you might consider self-employement, i.e.
> starting your own consulting/contract programming business. Identify small
> companies in your area that might benefit from applications you are able to
> develop, then offer your services to those companies. Start spreading the
> voice among friends and relatives.
>
> It's amazing how many people outside of the computer business don't know
> about Lisp--or Java, for that matter--and don't care what tool you use, as
> long as the software you offer to deliver solves an important problem.
^^^^^^
This is the crux of the problem. A lot of time the meaning of "solve"
is very fuzzy. :)
Cheers
--
Marco Antoniotti =============================================================
NYU Bioinformatics Group tel. +1 - 212 - 998 3488
719 Broadway 12th Floor fax +1 - 212 - 995 4122
New York, NY 10003, USA http://galt.mrl.nyu.edu/valis
Like DNA, such a language [Lisp] does not go out of style.
Paul Graham, ANSI Common Lisp