I'd just like to let everyone in the newsgroup know that it's
actually even more poor character to assume that someone is trying to
cheat when they merely ask for help.
Yes, i should have been more specific as to what my questions were,
but it would have been appropriate to just inform me of that.. which i
appreciate some of you doing, but to blatantly say that i'm asking
others to do my homework for me directly or indirectly, is offensive. I
didn't come on the newsgroup posting a message asking someone to program
for me or give me answers.
I just felt that I had to defend my position in this matter. And
I've already e-mailed Prof. Harvey about this. I'll try to be more
specific about my questions next time, but I'd also really appreciate it
if people would only reply if they were willing to have constructive
feedback, instead of accusations.
thanks,
sowmya
Sowmya <·······@uclink4.berkeley.edu> writes:
> I'd just like to let everyone in the newsgroup know that it's
> actually even more poor character to assume that someone is trying to
> cheat when they merely ask for help.
In my personal opinion, and in all spirit of constructive suggestion, I
might suggest you do further digging on the issue of what makes for good
and bad character.
No one outright accused you of having bad character, but people did
insinuate that absent further information, you might be started down the
wrong track with dealing with your homework. When you identify yourself
as a student, expect to be treated as one. That means first and foremost
that you are expected to go first to your professor and only here as a last
resort, that you are expected to make a decent try before asking questions,
and that you are expected to speak to people here with some manner of
respect and not lecture them about their morals or ethics. No one here is
paid and many of us contribute here only as long as it is pleasant to do so.
I do not find it pleasant or appropriate to be lectured by a student
about my morals or ethics, and following this message, I will take a
voluntary leave of absence of one month from this forum in protest of
the idea that a student should be allowed to lecture me on my
character without fear of consequence.
As I age, the whole democratization of the net and the sense of "anyone's
opinion is as valid as anyone else's" just wears on me. If people want the
respect and help of your elders, they can offer them respect in return.
If this newsgroup can get along fine without me posting here, then indeed
it should.
> Yes, i should have been more specific as to what my questions were,
> but it would have been appropriate to just inform me of that..
Here's a math problem for you. Consider the number of people in the world
taking Lisp or Scheme courses. Calculate the volume of newsgroup posts that
would be generated if each student merely sent a URL to a homework problem
they wanted help with and ask yourself whether anyone would ever have even
FOUND your request for help if everyone were as free to "post first and
offer information later" as you were. For extra credit, consider the social
consequences of such frequent postings by students, and compound that effect
by having the students lecture the 10-year or 20-year veterans of this group
on their moral character. Do you suppose there would be anyone left still
posting to this group to answer all those questions? Bonus extra credit:
is this really something anyone should have had to tell you?
Shame is a tool that is largely lost in the modern world. People consume
others' time and energy freely, confusing "I can" with "I should". Yes, you
can post to comp.lang.lisp any time you want, but that doesn't imply you
(or anyone) should. There are costs that go beyond money.
> I just felt that I had to defend my position in this matter. And
> I've already e-mailed Prof. Harvey about this. I'll try to be more
> specific about my questions next time, but I'd also really appreciate it
> if people would only reply if they were willing to have constructive
> feedback, instead of accusations.
Constructive feedback follows constructive questioning, not the other
way around. This newsgroup is not yours to dictate terms. If it is,
I will extend my absence from temporary to permanent.
"Kent M Pitman" <······@world.std.com> escribi� en el mensaje
····················@world.std.com...
> I do not find it pleasant or appropriate to be lectured by a student
> about my morals or ethics, and following this message, I will take a
> voluntary leave of absence of one month from this forum in protest of
> the idea that a student should be allowed to lecture me on my
> character without fear of consequence.
"without fear of consequence"... =:-O This is my favorite part of your post.
The original poster might be a moron but don't you think you're over
reacting a bit?
PS: No, I'm not a student.
Kent M Pitman <······@world.std.com> writes:
> I do not find it pleasant or appropriate to be lectured by a student
> about my morals or ethics, and following this message, I will take a
> voluntary leave of absence of one month from this forum in protest of
> the idea that a student should be allowed to lecture me on my
> character without fear of consequence.
I would certainly miss your informed posts. This newsgroup is usually
spared from most of the student invasion by the popularity of Scheme
in education. In comp.lang.scheme you'll find a lot more homework
problems. If this persists, doing a RFD to moderate the group could be
a solution.
--
Lieven Marchand <···@bewoner.dma.be>
Lambda calculus - Call us a mad club
Lieven Marchand wrote in message ...
>... This newsgroup is usually
>spared from most of the student invasion by the popularity of Scheme
>in education. In comp.lang.scheme you'll find a lot more homework
>problems.
I wouldn't say comp.lang.scheme is "invaded" by homework questions.
Anyway, I think the odd newbie question does no harm. This is a public
forum, and students should actually be enouraged to ask for help.
These questions may sound a little bit boring to the one or the other
LISP wizard, but he (the wizard) can always ignore it.
comp.lang.lisp should not end up as an elitist club of language lawyers.
> If this persists, doing a RFD to moderate the group could be
>a solution.
Great idea! I propose Erik Naggum for the job ;-)
cheers,
felix
* felix wrote:
> I wouldn't say comp.lang.scheme is "invaded" by homework questions.
> Anyway, I think the odd newbie question does no harm. This is a public
> forum, and students should actually be enouraged to ask for help.
> These questions may sound a little bit boring to the one or the other
> LISP wizard, but he (the wizard) can always ignore it.
This isn't the issue. If a student posts a question showing that they
have obviously tried hard but not managed to get it quite right,
people are generally helpful, especially if they're clear that it is a
homework question. But many of the questions look like `I
can't be bothered to do this, please do it for me': that's a
completely different case.
There have been a number of instances of the former case in recent
months, deja might have them (if it still bothers archiving news &
hasn't just devoted itself entirely to adverts by now).
--tim
In article <···············@cley.com>, Tim Bradshaw <···@cley.com> wrote:
> ...
>This isn't the issue. If a student posts a question showing that they
>have obviously tried hard but not managed to get it quite right,
>people are generally helpful, especially if they're clear that it is a
>homework question. But many of the questions look like `I
>can't be bothered to do this, please do it for me': that's a
>completely different case.
>
>There have been a number of instances of the former case in recent
>months, deja might have them (if it still bothers archiving news &
>hasn't just devoted itself entirely to adverts by now).
this seems to repeat every september and go (mostly) away after about
6 weeks. otherwise there aren't too many of these posts.
hs
··@paradise.nirvananet (Hartmann Schaffer) writes:
> this seems to repeat every september and go (mostly) away after about
> 6 weeks. otherwise there aren't too many of these posts.
Don't you know the current date is September 2575th, 1993 ;-)?
--
(espen)
"felix" <·····@anu.ie> writes:
> Anyway, I think the odd newbie question does no harm.
I agree.
> This is a public forum, and students should actually be enouraged to
> ask for help.
Asking for help is one thing, simply posting the homework question, or
in some cases, the URL to the homework, is another.
--
Lieven Marchand <···@bewoner.dma.be>
Lambda calculus - Call us a mad club
Lieven Marchand <···@bewoner.dma.be> wrote:
+---------------
| "felix" <·····@anu.ie> writes:
| > This is a public forum, and students should actually be enouraged to
| > ask for help.
|
| Asking for help is one thing, simply posting the homework question, or
| in some cases, the URL to the homework, is another.
+---------------
In some offline discussions on this issue, the following idea was brought up:
What if we added[*] another note after the "What is a Newsgroup?" paragraph
at <URL:http://www.lisp.org/table/newsgroups.htm#what> saying the usual
chiding stuff we see here written by the more patient ones, you know,
"make a serious effort at doing it yourself first", "show your work so
far, including program code/input/output", "be specific about what has
you stumped", etc., then we could reflexively reply to "clueless newbies"
with some boilerplate such as the following:
Even if others choose to reply to your question, you should realize
that it is completely inappropriate to ask people in this group
to do your homework for you. Those who make the effort to answer
questions here do so voluntarily, on their own time, and it is
only fair that you make an equally serious effort to solve your
own problems before imposing on others.
This doesn't mean people here aren't willing to help, but it *does*
mean that there is an etiquette to asking that must be followed if
you are not to expose yourself to sarcastic replies or even ridicule.
Read <URL:http://www.lisp.org/table/newsgroups.htm#student-questions>
and come back when you've gone through the steps listed there. You'll
probably find the reception distinctly warmer...
Comments? Additions/deletions/edits? Flames, even?
-Rob
[*] By "of we added", I mean if we asked the owners of the page very
politely to add some content that we've already done the work of
writing and of coming to a consensus on. I do not wish to imply
imposing anything on anyone.
-----
Rob Warnock, 41L-955 ····@sgi.com
Network Engineering http://reality.sgi.com/rpw3/
Silicon Graphics, Inc. Phone: 650-933-1673
1600 Amphitheatre Pkwy. PP-ASEL-IA
Mountain View, CA 94043
····@rigden.engr.sgi.com (Rob Warnock) writes:
> What if we added[*] another note after the "What is a Newsgroup?" paragraph
> at <URL:http://www.lisp.org/table/newsgroups.htm#what> saying the usual
> chiding stuff we see here written by the more patient ones, you know,
> "make a serious effort at doing it yourself first", "show your work so
> far, including program code/input/output", "be specific about what has
> you stumped", etc., then we could reflexively reply to "clueless newbies"
> with some boilerplate such as the following:
I'd be happy to add something to that page. If anyone has any
particular suggestions on what to say, just mail them to me, and I'll
have something up on the web site tonight.
-matt
--
Matt Emerson <···@grc.nasa.gov>
aerospace errand boy
In our last episode (Mon, 18 Sep 2000 19:33:09 +0100),
the artist formerly known as felix said:
>Lieven Marchand wrote in message ...
>
>>... This newsgroup is usually
>>spared from most of the student invasion by the popularity of Scheme
>>in education. In comp.lang.scheme you'll find a lot more homework
>>problems.
>
>I wouldn't say comp.lang.scheme is "invaded" by homework questions.
>Anyway, I think the odd newbie question does no harm. This is a public
>forum, and students should actually be enouraged to ask for help.
>These questions may sound a little bit boring to the one or the other
>LISP wizard, but he (the wizard) can always ignore it.
>
>comp.lang.lisp should not end up as an elitist club of language lawyers.
The problem is _not_ in there being a combination of people of varying
levels of expertise.
The problem comes when students do silly things like saying:
"I've got an assignment due Friday. Who's going to provide me with a
definition for a function to reverse a list? By the way, my
instructor told me to use recursion to do this, but I'm not quite sure
what recursion is."
If they have some questions displaying that they've tried to solve the
problem, and are encountering some difficulties, then it's perfectly
reasonable to provide some guidance to help deal with those
difficulties.
Unfortunately, the perhaps-benign "I need to get a blackjack program
done by Monday; here's a URL to the assignment" was not readily
distinguishable from the typical "My professor says I need to write a
recursive REVERSE, and I'd like you to do it for me" scenario.
--
(concatenate 'string "cbbrowne" ·@" "hex.net")
<http://www.ntlug.org/~cbbrowne/lisp.html>
"Ah, fall - when leaves turn to burnished colors upon darkling
branches, collars are turned up against a wind which murmurs of
winter, and homework assignments appear on Usenet. <sigh>"
-- Bob Jarvis
Kent M Pitman <······@world.std.com> writes:
> I do not find it pleasant or appropriate to be lectured by a student
> about my morals or ethics, and following this message, I will take a
> voluntary leave of absence of one month from this forum in protest
> of the idea that a student should be allowed to lecture me on my
> character without fear of consequence.
I think this would be a great loss to this newsgroup.
Instead, I think it would be better if posters that are basically
asking the newsgroup to do their homework were ignored. Especially
ones that think they know more than the people they're asking for help
from.
By the way, Kent, since you're using Gnus, why not just do a quick
'L A' on the poster?
In article <··························@meta.verbum.org>, Colin Walters
<·······@cis.ohio-state.edu> wrote:
> Kent M Pitman <······@world.std.com> writes:
>
> > I do not find it pleasant or appropriate to be lectured by a student
> > about my morals or ethics, and following this message, I will take a
> > voluntary leave of absence of one month from this forum in protest
> > of the idea that a student should be allowed to lecture me on my
> > character without fear of consequence.
>
> I think this would be a great loss to this newsgroup.
>
> Instead, I think it would be better if posters that are basically
> asking the newsgroup to do their homework were ignored. Especially
> ones that think they know more than the people they're asking for help
> from.
If the student has a good question, shows effort and really
learns from it, I have nothing against answering some questions.
Most of these students are new to Usenet (and netiquette), Lisp and
computer science (or even to computers ;-) ). In
general most of us agree that we should not post solutions
to homework - well, if these problems were solved a thousand
times before (a lot Scheme homework you can solve by using
m-. in a good Common Lisp system ;-) )....
I guess one could define a "guideline" how to deal with these
questions, but *sometimes* the unexpected is be more interesting.
The newsgroup is defined by the people that are using it -
I guess Kent should just forget his anger and keep on participating.
I was expecting that the student better be silent - since the
questions were really begging for such an answer. ;-)
--
Rainer Joswig, Hamburg, Germany
Email: ·············@corporate-world.lisp.de
Web: http://corporate-world.lisp.de/
In article <···············@world.std.com>, ······@world.std.com says...
> I do not find it pleasant or appropriate to be lectured by a student
> about my morals or ethics, and following this message, I will take a
> voluntary leave of absence of one month from this forum in protest of
> the idea that a student should be allowed to lecture me on my
> character without fear of consequence.
Dear Kent,
I would be happy if you stay in this newsgroup. Your contributions were
always very interesting and valuable.
Samir
P.S: I agree that one should post only questions to the group if he is
_really_ blocked. Each posting is expensive in terms of the valuable time
of all the readers.
Kent M Pitman <······@world.std.com> writes:
> Sowmya <·······@uclink4.berkeley.edu> writes:
[something he should be ashamed of but isn't]
> No one outright accused you of having bad character, but people did
> insinuate that absent further information, you might be started down the
> wrong track with dealing with your homework. When you identify yourself
> as a student, expect to be treated as one. That means first and foremost
> that you are expected to go first to your professor and only here as a last
> resort, that you are expected to make a decent try before asking questions,
> and that you are expected to speak to people here with some manner of
> respect and not lecture them about their morals or ethics. No one here is
> paid and many of us contribute here only as long as it is pleasant to do so.
>
> I do not find it pleasant or appropriate to be lectured by a student
> about my morals or ethics, and following this message, I will take a
> voluntary leave of absence of one month from this forum in protest of
> the idea that a student should be allowed to lecture me on my
> character without fear of consequence.
Easier to do what I did and just killfile him. Besides, he wouldn't
even know what he was missing.
--
Tom Breton, http://world.std.com/~tob
Not using "gh" 1997-2000. http://world.std.com/~tob/ugh-free.html
Some vocal people in cll make frequent, hasty personal attacks, but if
you killfile them cll becomes usable.
Sowmya <·······@uclink4.berkeley.edu> writes:
> I'd just like to let everyone in the newsgroup know that it's
> actually even more poor character to assume that someone is trying to
> cheat when they merely ask for help.
> Yes, i should have been more specific as to what my questions were,
> but it would have been appropriate to just inform me of that.. which i
> appreciate some of you doing, but to blatantly say that i'm asking
> others to do my homework for me directly or indirectly, is offensive. I
> didn't come on the newsgroup posting a message asking someone to program
> for me or give me answers.
> I just felt that I had to defend my position in this matter. And
> I've already e-mailed Prof. Harvey about this. I'll try to be more
> specific about my questions next time, but I'd also really appreciate it
> if people would only reply if they were willing to have constructive
> feedback, instead of accusations.
Just so you're aware of how inappropriate that all is, I'm letting you
know you're now in my killfile.
--
Tom Breton, http://world.std.com/~tob
Not using "gh" 1997-2000. http://world.std.com/~tob/ugh-free.html
Some vocal people in cll make frequent, hasty personal attacks, but if
you killfile them cll becomes usable.
In article <·················@uclink4.berkeley.edu>, Sowmya
<·······@uclink4.berkeley.edu> wrote:
>I'll try to be more
>specific about my questions next time, but I'd also really appreciate it
>if people would only reply if they were willing to have constructive
>feedback, instead of accusations.
Constructive suggestions:
1. Show that you've really tried your best and you are well and truly
stuck. Show what you've managed to work out so far. Then others will
give you hints, or suggest ways to proceed you may have overlooked. This
way you learn by doing, instead of having answers you can't understand
handed to you.
2. Don't alientate Kent Pitman. He is one of the most knowlegabe posters
on c.l.l, ( he *wrote* the ANSI Common Lisp standard, fercrissake!),
and an extremely valuable resource to be able to call on in need.
--
Raffael Cavallaro, Ph.D.
·······@mediaone.net
Sowmya <·······@uclink4.berkeley.edu> writes:
Probably effort spend which will be lost immediatly.
> I'd just like to let everyone in the newsgroup know that it's
> actually even more poor character to assume that someone is trying to
> cheat when they merely ask for help.
Ask yourself how you question has looked.
> Yes, i should have been more specific as to what my questions were,
> but it would have been appropriate to just inform me of that.. which i
> appreciate some of you doing, but to blatantly say that i'm asking
> others to do my homework for me directly or indirectly, is
>offensive.
It wasn't all you wrote just were tasks one usually does while
learning and even worse not the slightest hint that you tried on you
own. So you get the right answers on you offensive behavior.
> I
> didn't come on the newsgroup posting a message asking someone to program
> for me or give me answers.
Oh yes, you did.
> I just felt that I had to defend my position in this matter. And
> I've already e-mailed Prof. Harvey about this. I'll try to be more
> specific about my questions next time, but I'd also really appreciate it
> if people would only reply if they were willing to have constructive
> feedback, instead of accusations.
Now, at least you learned a bit.
Friedrich
--
for e-mail reply remove all after .com
Sowmya <·······@uclink4.berkeley.edu> writes:
> I just felt that I had to defend my position in this matter.
This is where you went wrong. It is very hard to learn things when
you are busy defending yourself.
Stig Hemmer,
Jack of a Few Trades.