I'm reading this book. On p. 70 (paperback ed., or Ch. 4, section titled,
"Waiting for Artificial Intelligence," first para.), Kurzweil writes:
"Unfortunately, many made the mistake of concentrating on a powerful but
inherently inefficient interpretive language called LISP, which had been
popular in academic AI circles. The commercial failure of LISP and the AI
companies that emphasized it created a backlash. The field of AI started
shedding its constituent disciplines, and companies in the natural-language
understanding, character and speech recongnition, robotics, machine vision,
and other areas originally considered part of the AI discipline now shunned
association with the field's label."
Well, assuming the author is right (I don't know) then what has taken Lisp's
place in AI? I've been looking around the newsgroups on AI, etc. and am
finding much conversation sprinkled with discussions on Lisp and many ref.
to AI in the Lisp discussions as well.
If anyone could lend clarification to this issue I'd love to read your
comments.
Thank you.
Richard Storey
"Richard Storey" <········@excelinternet.com> writes:
> I'm reading this book. On p. 70 (paperback ed., or Ch. 4, section titled,
> "Waiting for Artificial Intelligence," first para.), Kurzweil writes:
>
> "Unfortunately, many made the mistake of concentrating on a powerful but
> inherently inefficient interpretive language called LISP, which had been
> popular in academic AI circles. The commercial failure of LISP and the AI
> companies that emphasized it created a backlash. The field of AI started
> shedding its constituent disciplines, and companies in the natural-language
> understanding, character and speech recongnition, robotics, machine vision,
> and other areas originally considered part of the AI discipline now shunned
> association with the field's label."
>
> Well, assuming the author is right (I don't know) then what has taken Lisp's
> place in AI? I've been looking around the newsgroups on AI, etc. and am
Given that the author doesn't get basic facts right (most Lisp
implementations had compilers even in the 60s and 70s, and most
certainly at the time AI hit the "mainstream" in the early to
mid-80s), it is doubtful that he has any great insights to offer
on the relationship between Lisp and AI, and the relationship that
the AI companies and Lisp "enjoyed".
If you are interested in another perspective on the relationship
between AI companies and Lisp, get a copy of Richard Gabriel's
"Patterns of Software", and read the last two or three chapters.
Basically some AI companies had trouble working with both their
suppliers (Lisp companies), and their customers (over-promissing
(i.e. hyping) and under-delivering).
But that is largely of historical interest nowadays. We've left the
AI winter that ensued behind us, and interest is again growing in both
AI and Lisp. Also note that Gensym, a company that is both using
Common Lisp, and delivering large-scale "AI" business software since
1986 has recently landed a pretty large contact with a branch of
Nokia, which caused a rather largish increase in stock prices...
> finding much conversation sprinkled with discussions on Lisp and many ref.
> to AI in the Lisp discussions as well.
The technical relationship today between AI and (Common) Lisp is basically
that CL is a very good language for building complex software with changing
requirements and implementation strategies, and AI software is inherently
complex, changing and ladden with uncertainty. Today's promissing approach
may be tomorrow's dead-end, so you'd better not use something like C++
which basically means you'll have to decide nearly anything upfront, or get
into deep trouple rewriting nearly everything.
Also browse this newsgroups for earlier postings on this and other
topics, using e.g. Deja.com.
Regs, Pierre.
--
Pierre Mai <····@acm.org> PGP and GPG keys at your nearest Keyserver
"One smaller motivation which, in part, stems from altruism is Microsoft-
bashing." [Microsoft memo, see http://www.opensource.org/halloween1.html]
From: Robert Posey
Subject: Re: Ray Kurzweil: The Age of Spiritual Machines: remarks on Lisp
Date:
Message-ID: <38BFE1DD.BD056EDC@raytheon.com>
"Pierre R. Mai" wrote:
>
> But that is largely of historical interest nowadays. We've left the
> AI winter that ensued behind us, and interest is again growing in both
> AI and Lisp. Also note that Gensym, a company that is both using
> Common Lisp, and delivering large-scale "AI" business software since
> 1986 has recently landed a pretty large contact with a branch of
> Nokia, which caused a rather largish increase in stock prices...
However, I am beginning to see signs of the compulsive over promising in
the industry. I have seen a TV ad that is marketing Neural Net based
software as software that thinks. Unless the company in question has
a major breakthrough they have kept very quiet about, that claim is
extreme even for a marketing pitch.
Muddy
> Regs, Pierre.
>
> --
> Pierre Mai <····@acm.org> PGP and GPG keys at your nearest Keyserver
> "One smaller motivation which, in part, stems from altruism is Microsoft-
> bashing." [Microsoft memo, see http://www.opensource.org/halloween1.html]
Would you be referring to CA's recent advert? Marketing department thunder?
Robert Posey <·····@raytheon.com> wrote in message
······················@raytheon.com...
|
|
| "Pierre R. Mai" wrote:
| >
| > But that is largely of historical interest nowadays. We've left the
| > AI winter that ensued behind us, and interest is again growing in both
| > AI and Lisp. Also note that Gensym, a company that is both using
| > Common Lisp, and delivering large-scale "AI" business software since
| > 1986 has recently landed a pretty large contact with a branch of
| > Nokia, which caused a rather largish increase in stock prices...
|
| However, I am beginning to see signs of the compulsive over promising in
| the industry. I have seen a TV ad that is marketing Neural Net based
| software as software that thinks. Unless the company in question has
| a major breakthrough they have kept very quiet about, that claim is
| extreme even for a marketing pitch.
|
| Muddy
|
|
| > Regs, Pierre.
| >
| > --
| > Pierre Mai <····@acm.org> PGP and GPG keys at your nearest
Keyserver
| > "One smaller motivation which, in part, stems from altruism is
Microsoft-
| > bashing." [Microsoft memo, see
http://www.opensource.org/halloween1.html]
From: Robert Posey
Subject: Re: Ray Kurzweil: The Age of Spiritual Machines: remarks on Lisp
Date:
Message-ID: <38C3D9E4.7F75EE62@raytheon.com>
Richard Storey wrote:
>
> Would you be referring to CA's recent advert? Marketing department thunder?
Actually, I can't remember the company's name which is why I didn't trash
them directly. I hope it was just Marketing Department Thunder without
any of the highly unethical research "articles" that are too often accepted
in allegedly peer reviewed journals. If the claim is only in the pure
mass marketing stuff, then the damage won't be as bad. However, at my company
if you want to included any algorithm developed from AI research, its bests
not to mention where it came from. There are still plenty of people convinced
that AI is a complete and utter failure. Amazingly, even when they know that
A*, Fuzzy Logic and company came from AI research they still consider it
failed, and dead as a concept. Some otherwise intelligent people have concluded
it is impossible to create Strong AI at all, and all research in AI is a waste
of time. That's why I get nervous when hear obviously false claims. I also
fell that Engineers have a duty to the true, and it turns my stomach to here
a techie product marketed with lies.
Muddy
> Robert Posey <·····@raytheon.com> wrote in message
> ······················@raytheon.com...
> |
> |
> | "Pierre R. Mai" wrote:
> | >
> | > But that is largely of historical interest nowadays. We've left the
> | > AI winter that ensued behind us, and interest is again growing in both
> | > AI and Lisp. Also note that Gensym, a company that is both using
> | > Common Lisp, and delivering large-scale "AI" business software since
> | > 1986 has recently landed a pretty large contact with a branch of
> | > Nokia, which caused a rather largish increase in stock prices...
> |
> | However, I am beginning to see signs of the compulsive over promising in
> | the industry. I have seen a TV ad that is marketing Neural Net based
> | software as software that thinks. Unless the company in question has
> | a major breakthrough they have kept very quiet about, that claim is
> | extreme even for a marketing pitch.
> |
> | Muddy
> |
> |
> | > Regs, Pierre.
> | >
> | > --
> | > Pierre Mai <····@acm.org> PGP and GPG keys at your nearest
> Keyserver
> | > "One smaller motivation which, in part, stems from altruism is
> Microsoft-
> | > bashing." [Microsoft memo, see
> http://www.opensource.org/halloween1.html]
The only prime-time commercial I've seen (I don't watch a great deal of
television), within the last 2-3 weeks, that specifically metioned AI (or
that has ever metioned AI for that matter) was Computer Associates. I don't
have a quote, but it struck me as a rather bold claim and, quite
unashamedley, boastful of that fact that something so wonderful (marketing)
was the product of AI technologies.
Richard S.
From: Tim Bradshaw
Subject: Re: Ray Kurzweil: The Age of Spiritual Machines: remarks on Lisp
Date:
Message-ID: <ey3d7pcjhkr.fsf@cley.com>
* Richard Storey wrote:
> I'm reading this book. On p. 70 (paperback ed., or Ch. 4, section titled,
> "Waiting for Artificial Intelligence," first para.), Kurzweil writes:
> "Unfortunately, many made the mistake of concentrating on a powerful but
> inherently inefficient interpretive language called LISP, which had been
> popular in academic AI circles.
> Well, assuming the author is right (I don't know) then what has taken Lisp's
> place in AI? I've been looking around the newsgroups on AI, etc. and am
> finding much conversation sprinkled with discussions on Lisp and many ref.
> to AI in the Lisp discussions as well.
He's not right, obviously. He's just repeating myth and lore, you
should ignore him.
--tim
From: Reini Urban
Subject: Re: Ray Kurzweil: The Age of Spiritual Machines: remarks on Lisp
Date:
Message-ID: <38bfe438.14747085@judy>
Richard Storey wrote:
>"Unfortunately, many made the mistake of concentrating on a powerful but
>inherently inefficient interpretive language called LISP, which had been
>popular in academic AI circles. The commercial failure of LISP and the AI
>companies that emphasized it created a backlash.
...
oops!
Common Lisp - Myths and Legends
http://www.xanalys.com/software_tools/products/myths&legends.html
What is Lisp?
http://www.alu.org/table/lisp.htm
What is Lisp Good For?
http://www.alu.org/table/good.htm
--
C++ ARM: "C programmers think memory management is too important to be
left to the computer. Lisp programmers think memory management is too
important to be left to the user."
From: Christopher C Stacy
Subject: Re: Ray Kurzweil: The Age of Spiritual Machines: remarks on Lisp
Date:
Message-ID: <x8laekemx7m.fsf@world.std.com>
>>>>> On Fri, 03 Mar 2000 13:13:46 GMT, Richard Storey ("Richard") writes:
Richard> I'm reading this book. On p. 70 (paperback ed., or Ch. 4, section titled,
Richard> "Waiting for Artificial Intelligence," first para.), Kurzweil writes:
Richard> "Unfortunately, many made the mistake of concentrating on a powerful but
Richard> inherently inefficient interpretive language called LISP..."
Since that statement is just complete nonsense, I wouldn't bother
considering the rest of what he has to say there.