From: Frederick C. Gibson, Architect
Subject: Programming tools for Lisp?
Date: 
Message-ID: <CyD15.250$LF1.97861@news.pacbell.net>
Can anyone recommend tools for helping organize and diagram Lisp programs
that aren't really expensive such as Rational Rose?

Thanks!

Fred Gibson, Architect

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From: Paolo Amoroso
Subject: Re: Programming tools for Lisp?
Date: 
Message-ID: <lJxHOch4xkLzgV5mgzsiIZ1uOMuC@4ax.com>
On Tue, 13 Jun 2000 21:06:06 -0700, "Frederick C. Gibson, Architect"
<·········@gibson-design.com> wrote:

> Can anyone recommend tools for helping organize and diagram Lisp programs
> that aren't really expensive such as Rational Rose?

Those tools may not be necessary or useful for Lisp programs, at least in
some contexts. Here is a possibly relevant quote from a recent paper (taken
from section "Design process"):

"Our attempt to use UML - recommended to us by our C++ colleagues for its
CORBA support (it can generate IDL) - proved pointless. It shed no light on
networked objects."
[...]
"Documenting the design - again we dropped the UML approach as being
extremely time-consuming. Instead, we are documenting approximately as in
the CORBA services standards descriptions - textually, with tables,
illustrations and commented IDL."

The paper is:

  "Using Lisp in a Distributed Document Management and Preparation Project"
  Greger Lindell (Intelligent Handbook Belgium)
  Proceedings of the European Lisp User Group Meeting '99 (ELUGM '99)


Paolo
-- 
EncyCMUCLopedia * Extensive collection of CMU Common Lisp documentation
http://cvs2.cons.org:8000/cmucl/doc/EncyCMUCLopedia/
From: Fernando
Subject: Re: Programming tools for Lisp?
Date: 
Message-ID: <nR925.238$aw1.7436@m2newsread.uni2.es>
"Paolo Amoroso" <·······@mclink.it> escribi� en el mensaje

> "Documenting the design - again we dropped the UML approach as being
> extremely time-consuming. Instead, we are documenting approximately as in
> the CORBA services standards descriptions - textually, with tables,
> illustrations and commented IDL."
>
> The paper is:
>
>   "Using Lisp in a Distributed Document Management and Preparation
Project"
>   Greger Lindell (Intelligent Handbook Belgium)
>   Proceedings of the European Lisp User Group Meeting '99 (ELUGM '99)

Do you know if it's available online womewhere? O:-)
TIA
From: Tim Bradshaw
Subject: Re: Programming tools for Lisp?
Date: 
Message-ID: <ey3snugbg43.fsf@cley.com>
* Frederick C Gibson, Architect wrote:
> Can anyone recommend tools for helping organize and diagram Lisp programs
> that aren't really expensive such as Rational Rose?

What I do is to use the MOP to provide an interface to information
about classes, and some kind of who-calls/who-uses package to provide
information about that kind of thing, and then write (small, often
disposable) tools in CLIM, using the grapher, to draw various
pictures.

I guess this is not the kind of thing that rational rose does, and
serious SW engineering people would be disturbed at the casualness of
it all, but it's fairly cheap.

--tim
From: see.signature
Subject: Re: Programming tools for Lisp?
Date: 
Message-ID: <slrn8kf3dv.7c7.anyone@Flex111.dNWL.WAU.NL>
>* Frederick C Gibson, Architect wrote:
>> Can anyone recommend tools for helping organize and diagram Lisp programs
>> that aren't really expensive such as Rational Rose?
>

try oo-browser for emacs from
www.beopen.com

it has a graphical class hierarchy browser


Marc

-- 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
email: marc dot hoffmann at users dot whh dot wau dot nl
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Rainer Joswig
Subject: Re: Programming tools for Lisp?
Date: 
Message-ID: <rainer.joswig-1BB6AE.01024215062000@news.is-europe.net>
In article <···················@news.pacbell.net>, "Frederick C. 
Gibson, Architect" <·········@gibson-design.com> wrote:

> Can anyone recommend tools for helping organize and diagram Lisp programs
> that aren't really expensive such as Rational Rose?

This is a difficult question. Since Common Lisp is a multi-paradigm
language it is not easy to cover it with one methodology
or one modelling language.

If you focus on the CLOS part of the language, even then
it is not easy to provide general and domain independent tools. Mostly one
would use domain specific tools (even self developed like, say,
petri net editors). Usually the development environment provides browsers
for information that the Lisp image contains - the Lisp image
is seen as a collection of objects and those can be inspected.
The programs itself are Lisp objects and the various development
tools are recording informations about the Lisp programs
(functions -> arglists, definitions, documentations , compilation
warnings, who calls, call graphs, usage metering, versions, ... 
 classes -> slots, metaclass, definition, subclasses, superclasses, ...).
Commercial Lisp systems like ACL, Genera, LispWorks and MCL
are providing a multitude of tools for that - still you
often work through a text editor interface to enter
your programs - you are not drawing programs - with the
exception of the interface builders.

It would be interesting to see what the current state
of the art of graphical programming and modelling tools is.
There was (is?) a lot of research - but I don't know
what commercial Lisp-based tools are being used and how
they are related to "Lisp programming". For MCL-based
examples of visual programming tools I would for example
mention SK8 (multimedia), PatchWork (Music), Apple Dylan
(Dylan programming environment), Agentsheets (Simulations), ...

Well, in brighter days we had tools like KEE (Knowledge
Engineering Environment from Intellicorp), where you
created/edited/visualized your objects/classes through a
graphical user interface.

Maybe you could elaborate your question a bit?

Rainer Joswig

-- 
Rainer Joswig, BU Partner,
ISION Internet AG, Steinh�ft 9, 20459 Hamburg, Germany
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