Hi all,
I am currently applying for a job that is due to start Jan 2001, and the
employer wants someone with java skills. My background is varied, but most
recently I have been programming small to medium-sized scientific jobs. I
guess I'm an intermediate level Lisper. I don't know any Java yet, but I
really want this job so could anybody direct me towards resources that
would make the transition as seamless as possible? Obviously I would like to
convince the boss that it would be better if I could program in Lisp, but I
think that would be difficult.
Thanks,
Simon.
--
S. P. Blomberg
Dept of Zoology
University of Aberdeen
Aberdeen, AB24 2TZ, UK. ··········@abdn.ac.uk
"s.blomberg" wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I am currently applying for a job that is due to start Jan 2001, and the
> employer wants someone with java skills. My background is varied, but most
> recently I have been programming small to medium-sized scientific jobs. I
> guess I'm an intermediate level Lisper. I don't know any Java yet, but I
> really want this job so could anybody direct me towards resources that
> would make the transition as seamless as possible? Obviously I would like to
> convince the boss that it would be better if I could program in Lisp, but I
> think that would be difficult.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Simon.
>
> --
> S. P. Blomberg
> Dept of Zoology
> University of Aberdeen
> Aberdeen, AB24 2TZ, UK. ··········@abdn.ac.uk
The best java book I have found is called "Thinking in Java" by Bruce Eckel.
You can actually download it for
free on his website (or buy it from the bookstore.)
Dave
s.blomberg <······@sysa.abdn.ac.uk> wrote in message
·················@info.abdn.ac.uk...
> would make the transition as seamless as possible? Obviously I would like
to
> convince the boss that it would be better if I could program in Lisp, but
I
> think that would be difficult.
Try to convince him to write the user interface in Java and the real work in
Lisp. I've done this several times in Lisp with user interfaces in Win32,
Java and/or DHTML/JavaScript.
Never show CLIM to anybody or he will run away...
One time I wrote the software in Lisp that wrote the software in Java and in
C++.
If all this fail, you can also still use Lisp to write a first version of
the software. Then rewrite it in Java then compare the performance and the
time to write the application.
Marc Battyani
Marc Battyani wrote:
>
> Never show CLIM to anybody or he will run away...
>
Why? I would *really* like to know what the perception of CLIM is amongst the
Lisp community.
What are the advantages and disadvantages of using Java instead CLIM for GUI
development?
(I am neither pro or con Java or CLIM, and am just doing some fact finding
before writing a GUI for one of my Lisp programs)
Thanks,
dave linenberg
In article <·················@home.com>, dave linenberg
<········@home.com> wrote:
> Marc Battyani wrote:
>
> >
> > Never show CLIM to anybody or he will run away...
> >
>
> Why? I would *really* like to know what the perception of CLIM is amongst the
> Lisp community.
Some of my views on CLIM:
Negative:
- used or understood only by a few people
- no free implementation
- most implementations are coming without source (exceptions: bundled
with Genera and you can buy a source license for CLIM on MCL)
- only LispWorks Professional and Genera have CLIM
in the standard distribution
- some appearances may look non-standard
- some unsual interaction methods
- almost no further development, just bug fixes
- a lot of capabilities are missing
- really complicated class inheritance structures
- really hairy implementation
- bad examples provided
- lacks documentation of the implementation techniques
- no graphical tools for interface development provided
- lacks some of the more modern gadgets
- steep learning curve
Positive
+ platform independent (this is a ***big*** plus, IMHO)
+ uses native toolkits
+ available for most commercial Lisp implementations
+ covers a lot of functionality
+ object-oriented open implementation
+ modern Lisp platforms are fast enough for CLIM
For me the portability of my code is the most important issue.
Also it reduces the need to learn different toolkits - just
one is sufficient for Windows, X, Mac and the Lisp Machine
(like I use the Emacs key bindings everywhere
possible).
--
Rainer Joswig, BU Partner,
ISION Internet AG, Steinh�ft 9, 20459 Hamburg, Germany
Tel: +49 40 3070 2950, Fax: +49 40 3070 2999
Email: ····················@ision.net WWW: http://www.ision.net/
dave linenberg <········@home.com> wrote in message
······················@home.com...
> Marc Battyani wrote:
> >
> > Never show CLIM to anybody or he will run away...
> >
> Why? I would *really* like to know what the perception of CLIM is amongst
the
> Lisp community.
I never said that CLIM is not good.
Please replace my sentence in the original context where the problem was how
to push Lisp in a Java Project.
> What are the advantages and disadvantages of using Java instead CLIM for
GUI
> development?
Again in the context of pushing Lisp in a Java project, using Java for the
UI and Lisp for the real work is IMHO a good compromise. You get all the
advantages of Lisp + you show people what they are used to see and what they
are waiting for as a UI.
I do this very often with a Win32 interface and LispWorks under Windows NT.
I tried Java (JDK 1.2.2) but it takes almost as much memory as the Lisp just
for the UI.
Marc Battyani
In article
<
> > Marc Battyani wrote:
> I tried Java (JDK 1.2.2) but it takes almost as much memory as the
Lisp just for the UI.
Would it be at all better to write the UI in VB or Tk?
Tom
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
<····@my-deja.com> wrote in message ·················@nnrp1.deja.com...
> In article
> <
> > > Marc Battyani wrote:
>
> > I tried Java (JDK 1.2.2) but it takes almost as much memory as the
> Lisp just for the UI.
>
>
> Would it be at all better to write the UI in VB or Tk?
I don't know, I switched directly to the Win32 API this reduced the UI mem
usage to less than 500Kb.
The Lisp calls the API directly. The interface is automatically generated.
Marc Battyani
* dave linenberg wrote:
> Marc Battyani wrote:
> Why? I would *really* like to know what the perception of CLIM is amongst the
> Lisp community.
> What are the advantages and disadvantages of using Java instead CLIM for GUI
> development?
As far as I know they don't compare, although people would kind of
like them to.
CLIM is clearly pretty old-fashioned in a lot of ways, and has made
some fairly questionable design decisions -- some of the things it's
trying to do are very hard to get right, but it still gets them wrong.
CLIM has notably failed to keep up with all of the look & feel of
modern GUIs, and I think that's partly because of misdesign, but
partly because there has been relatively tiny effort expended on CLIM.
How much this can be fixed, I don't know.
However, CLIM still does stuff that I've not seen anywhere else. In
particular it lets you produce, possibly somewhat rudimentary,
interfaces to Lisp applications near-trivially: you don't need to
define any new classes, or really anything much, you just teach CLIM
about your application objects (which is easy because CLOS doesn't
have the kind of fascist restrictions about defining methods that most
OO systems have) and it is really all incredibly lightweight. There
are, I think, a wide class of programs for which this kind of
interface is appropriate -- programs that are used in-house, or ship
in very small numbers, or which are undergoing continuous change. For
these applications CLIM can let you spend most of your time on the
application, not the GUI.
I write basically throwaway CLIM interfaces all the time to programs I
write -- sometimes just because I want to get a picture of some object
for debugging. I kind of doubt I'd do that in a java-based system.
Of course, CLIM has the problem that its zero-point cost is kind of
large compared to some Java system right now, and lots of people in
this newsgroup like stress on about that kind of thing, but if your
time is worth anything then zero-point cost can be pretty much
irrelevant.
--tim
In article
<··················································@lp.airnews.net>,
"Marc Battyani" <·············@csi.com> wrote:
> Never show CLIM to anybody or he will run away...
Why that?
See this simple example I have written using Digitool's CLIM 2 with
Macintosh Common Lisp 4.3:
http://corporate-world.lavielle.com/clim/browser.jpg
- using a standard Mac font
- using standard Mac list items
- using a standard Mac window
- using standard Mac scrollbars
- using a UI theme to make the interface AQUA like
(AQUA is the new user inferface for MacOS X)
I'm not really sure that an ugly interface is the fault
of CLIM.
--
Rainer Joswig, BU Partner,
ISION Internet AG, Steinh�ft 9, 20459 Hamburg, Germany
Tel: +49 40 3070 2950, Fax: +49 40 3070 2999
Email: ····················@ision.net WWW: http://www.ision.net/
Rainer Joswig <·············@ision.net> wrote in message
········································@news.is-europe.net...
> In article
> <··················································@lp.airnews.net>,
> "Marc Battyani" <·············@csi.com> wrote:
>
> > Never show CLIM to anybody or he will run away...
>
> Why that?
>
> See this simple example I have written using Digitool's CLIM 2 with
> Macintosh Common Lisp 4.3:
>
> http://corporate-world.lavielle.com/clim/browser.jpg
...
Sorry if my wording was not precise enough, but I didn't said that CLIM is
not good or not powerful.
I was giving some advices to the original poster to be able use Lisp in a
project where Java is asked for. And if you show a CLIM interface when you
are asked a Java UI you will have more trouble to push Lisp because it looks
too much different.
Marc Battyani
In article
<··················································@lp.airnews.net>,
"Marc Battyani" <·············@csi.com> wrote:
> I was giving some advices to the original poster to be able use Lisp in a
> project where Java is asked for. And if you show a CLIM interface when you
> are asked a Java UI you will have more trouble to push Lisp because it looks
> too much different.
What is a "Java UI"? Doesn't Java on my Mac produce a "Mac UI"?
--
Rainer Joswig, BU Partner,
ISION Internet AG, Steinh�ft 9, 20459 Hamburg, Germany
Tel: +49 40 3070 2950, Fax: +49 40 3070 2999
Email: ····················@ision.net WWW: http://www.ision.net/
Rainer Joswig <·············@ision.net> wrote in message
········································@news.is-europe.net...
> In article
> <··················································@lp.airnews.net>,
> "Marc Battyani" <·············@csi.com> wrote:
>
> > I was giving some advices to the original poster to be able use Lisp in
a
> > project where Java is asked for. And if you show a CLIM interface when
you
> > are asked a Java UI you will have more trouble to push Lisp because it
looks
> > too much different.
>
> What is a "Java UI"? Doesn't Java on my Mac produce a "Mac UI"?
I haven't written software for Mac for more than 7 years now so my I don't
know how Java fits on the MAC.
On Windows NT I have lots of stuff that I don't have with CLIM like:
OpenGL
Tree Views
List Views (multi columns)
Date/Time/Calendar Edits and pickers
DHTML panes
Tab Controls
Status bars
Buttons bars
Most widgets can display icons+text
Tool tips
etc...
I find equivalent gadgets to almost all these in Java but not (to my
knowledge at least) in CLIM.
For me the almost only positives points for CLIM are legacy and portability
(that you are supposed to get with Java)
Marc Battyani
In article
<··················································@lp.airnews.net>,
"Marc Battyani" <·············@csi.com> wrote:
> I haven't written software for Mac for more than 7 years now so my I don't
> know how Java fits on the MAC.
> On Windows NT I have lots of stuff that I don't have with CLIM like:
> OpenGL
> Tree Views
> List Views (multi columns)
> Date/Time/Calendar Edits and pickers
> DHTML panes
> Tab Controls
> Status bars
> Buttons bars
> Most widgets can display icons+text
> Tool tips
> etc...
>
> I find equivalent gadgets to almost all these in Java but not (to my
> knowledge at least) in CLIM.
Well, since CLIM can use the platform gadgets, you just use
what's available. Just interface to what you need.
Here is an example of CLIM 2 on MCL using a Quicktime gadget
to display a JPG file:
http://corporate-world.lavielle.com/clim/clim-qt.jpg
If you want, you can play movies in your Lisp listener: ;-)
http://corporate-world.lavielle.com/clim/toy-story.jpg
--
Rainer Joswig, BU Partner,
ISION Internet AG, Steinh�ft 9, 20459 Hamburg, Germany
Tel: +49 40 3070 2950, Fax: +49 40 3070 2999
Email: ····················@ision.net WWW: http://www.ision.net/
Rainer Joswig <·············@ision.net> wrote in message
········································@news.is-europe.net...
> Well, since CLIM can use the platform gadgets, you just use
> what's available. Just interface to what you need.
Yes, but then you loose portability.
> Here is an example of CLIM 2 on MCL using a Quicktime gadget
> to display a JPG file:
>
> http://corporate-world.lavielle.com/clim/clim-qt.jpg
>
> If you want, you can play movies in your Lisp listener: ;-)
>
> http://corporate-world.lavielle.com/clim/toy-story.jpg
Don't tell us you do real work with your Mac... ;-)
Marc Battyani
In article
<··················································@lp.airnews.net>,
"Marc Battyani" <·············@csi.com> wrote:
> Rainer Joswig <·············@ision.net> wrote in message
> ········································@news.is-europe.net...
> > Well, since CLIM can use the platform gadgets, you just use
> > what's available. Just interface to what you need.
>
> Yes, but then you loose portability.
Use the same abstract gadget mechanism over the different
platforms. For example implement movie gadgets on each of those
and CLIM chooses the right implementation. The necessary
infrastructure is already there.
--
Rainer Joswig, BU Partner,
ISION Internet AG, Steinh�ft 9, 20459 Hamburg, Germany
Tel: +49 40 3070 2950, Fax: +49 40 3070 2999
Email: ····················@ision.net WWW: http://www.ision.net/
* Marc Battyani wrote:
> Rainer Joswig <·············@ision.net> wrote in message
> ········································@news.is-europe.net...
>> Well, since CLIM can use the platform gadgets, you just use
>> what's available. Just interface to what you need.
> Yes, but then you loose portability.
Well, you always lose portability if you talk to something
platform-dependent. However, if there is common functionality across
platforms, then it's easy enough to provide a common interface.
--tim
"Marc Battyani" <·············@csi.com> writes:
> Try to convince him to write the user interface in Java and the real work in
> Lisp. I've done this several times in Lisp with user interfaces in Win32,
> Java and/or DHTML/JavaScript.
I'm very interested in doing this for some of my projects at work.
How would this be done? Is there some sort of Lisp/Java IPC? A Java
implementation of Common Lisp?
--
vsync
http://quadium.net/ - last updated Thu Jun 1 23:57:30 MDT 2000
Orjner.
vsync <·····@quadium.net> wrote in message
···················@quadium.net...
> "Marc Battyani" <·············@csi.com> writes:
>
> > Try to convince him to write the user interface in Java and the real
work in
> > Lisp. I've done this several times in Lisp with user interfaces in
Win32,
> > Java and/or DHTML/JavaScript.
>
> I'm very interested in doing this for some of my projects at work.
> How would this be done? Is there some sort of Lisp/Java IPC? A Java
> implementation of Common Lisp?
I used sockets which are quite usable both with Java and Lisp. This has also
the advantage of working across a network it needed.
IIRC somebody posted that he was using the Java Native Interface (JNI) to
call directly a Java UI from Lisp.
There are also the RMI and the Corba brokers.
Marc Battyani
"Marc Battyani" <·············@csi.com> writes:
> > I'm very interested in doing this for some of my projects at work.
> > How would this be done? Is there some sort of Lisp/Java IPC? A Java
> > implementation of Common Lisp?
>
> I used sockets which are quite usable both with Java and Lisp. This has also
> the advantage of working across a network it needed.
I'm ashamed of myself... I didn't even think of that. Just connect to
localhost, port xxxxx, I guess? How did you handle which port to use?
Was your implementation able to handle multiple instances running
simultaneously? How did you launch the JVM and Lisp interpreter?
--
vsync
http://quadium.net/ - last updated Thu Jun 1 23:57:30 MDT 2000
Orjner.
vsync <·····@quadium.net> wrote in message
···················@quadium.net...
> I'm ashamed of myself... I didn't even think of that. Just connect to
> localhost, port xxxxx, I guess?
Yes
>How did you handle which port to use?
Just choose one.
> Was your implementation able to handle multiple instances running
> simultaneously?
Yes multiple simultaneous UIs for the same application.
>How did you launch the JVM and Lisp interpreter?
Started the JVM from Lisp.
Marc Battyani
vsync wrote:
>
> "Marc Battyani" <·············@csi.com> writes:
>
> > > I'm very interested in doing this for some of my projects at work.
> > > How would this be done? Is there some sort of Lisp/Java IPC? A Java
> > > implementation of Common Lisp?
> >
> > I used sockets which are quite usable both with Java and Lisp. This has also
> > the advantage of working across a network it needed.
>
> I'm ashamed of myself... I didn't even think of that. Just connect to
> localhost, port xxxxx, I guess? How did you handle which port to use?
Why come up with yet another proprietary distributed protocol? And if
you are going between platforms, there are all the marshalling issues
that you need to work out.
I would strongly suggest using CORBA whenever such a distributed
architecture is needed/wanted. That's what we use here. Also you get
the added advantage of being able to communicate "out of the box" with
any other UI (or other client) written in most any other language
(even including stuff like perl). Using CORBA with the CL mapping is
truly a breeze.
Further this works with COM as well - there are tools which will take
CORBA IDL and produce COM IDL. I know this works because we've done
it here. At this point you can even have VB interfaces (yes, VB is
mind numbing junk, but a lot of people like this idea).
> Just connect to localhost, port xxxxx, I guess? How did you handle
> which port to use?
In nearly all cases you can forget about this and just let the ORB
handle it - just like marshalling issues.
> Was your implementation able to handle multiple instances running
> simultaneously?
Yes, this becomes another no brainer.
/Jon
--
Jon Anthony
Synquiry Technologies, Ltd. Belmont, MA 02478, 617.484.3383
"Nightmares - Ha! The way my life's been going lately,
Who'd notice?" -- Londo Mollari
Jon S Anthony wrote:
>
> vsync wrote:
> >
> > "Marc Battyani" <·············@csi.com> writes:
> >
> > > > I'm very interested in doing this for some of my projects at work.
> > > > How would this be done? Is there some sort of Lisp/Java IPC? A Java
> > > > implementation of Common Lisp?
> > >
> > > I used sockets which are quite usable both with Java and Lisp. This has also
> > > the advantage of working across a network it needed.
> >
> > I'm ashamed of myself... I didn't even think of that. Just connect to
> > localhost, port xxxxx, I guess? How did you handle which port to use?
>
> Why come up with yet another proprietary distributed protocol? And if
> you are going between platforms, there are all the marshalling issues
> that you need to work out.
>
> I would strongly suggest using CORBA whenever such a distributed
> architecture is needed/wanted. That's what we use here. Also you get
> the added advantage of being able to communicate "out of the box" with
> any other UI (or other client) written in most any other language
> (even including stuff like perl). Using CORBA with the CL mapping is
> truly a breeze.
>
> Further this works with COM as well - there are tools which will take
> CORBA IDL and produce COM IDL. I know this works because we've done
> it here. At this point you can even have VB interfaces (yes, VB is
> mind numbing junk, but a lot of people like this idea).
>
> > Just connect to localhost, port xxxxx, I guess? How did you handle
> > which port to use?
>
> In nearly all cases you can forget about this and just let the ORB
> handle it - just like marshalling issues.
I would recommend CORBA, but it may be some cases a bit oversized for
you need. There's a library around (sorry dont know where, look out for
something called LIJOS.) which allows communication between LISP and
JAVA by implementing the JAVA-Serialization in LISP. This makes possible
to exchange data and objects between CL and JAVA. Both sides read and
write the serialized objects to streams so you can use sockets for
communication.
Bye,
Joe
--
Johannes Beck ·············@arcormail.de
http://home.arcor-online.de/johannes.beck/
PGP Public Key available by
http://home.arcor-online.de/johannes.beck/pgp.asc
"Marc Battyani" <·············@csi.com> writes:
> IIRC somebody posted that he was using the Java Native Interface
> (JNI) to call directly a Java UI from Lisp.
I think that was me. I used JNI to allow me to use Java classes from
Lisp. Using this I built Swing based user interfaces which called back
in to Lisp code and vice versa. It worked quite well but was a bit of
a memory hog due to the Java VM overhead. I used Corman Lisp on Win32
BTW.
Chris.
--
http://www.double.co.nz/dylan
Chris Double <·····@double.co.nz> wrote in message
···················@double.co.nz...
> "Marc Battyani" <·············@csi.com> writes:
>
> > IIRC somebody posted that he was using the Java Native Interface
> > (JNI) to call directly a Java UI from Lisp.
>
> I think that was me. I used JNI to allow me to use Java classes from
> Lisp. Using this I built Swing based user interfaces which called back
> in to Lisp code and vice versa. It worked quite well but was a bit of
> a memory hog due to the Java VM overhead. I used Corman Lisp on Win32
> BTW.
I stopped to use Java because of the memory taken by the JVM, something like
12 to 14Mb for a small UI!
It was JDK 1.2.2 maybe they made some progress since that.
Marc Battyani
> I'm very interested in doing this for some of my projects at work.
> How would this be done? Is there some sort of Lisp/Java IPC? A Java
> implementation of Common Lisp?
Kawa can compile either Scheme or Emacs Lisp to Java bytecodes.
So I think it should be quite doable to write at least a usable
(i.e. subset) implementation of Common Lisp using Kawa.
In some case it will be difficult to implement the full Common
Lisp language. However, I can't off-hand think of anything from
the first edition of CLtL that should cause problems. Kawa already
implements the full numeric tower, almost all of format, both
dynamic and lexical scoping, and other CL-like features.
I have an design for an object system similar to CLOS, which can
be implemented fairly efficiently using Java interfaces.
If this sounds like an interesting project, let me know.
--
--Per Bothner
···@bothner.com http://www.bothner.com/~per/
I don't know if anyone mentioned it yet, and it's not properly lisp,
but if you can do scheme, there's an implementation in Java (called
kawa). It allows you to compile scheme to Java (you end up with java
code, nobody knows it's really scheme).
It's at:
http://www.gnu.org/software/kawa/
--
Glauber Ribeiro
··········@my-deja.com
"Opinions stated are my own and not representative of Experian"
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
The Glauber <··········@my-deja.com> writes:
>I don't know if anyone mentioned it yet, and it's not properly lisp,
>but if you can do scheme, there's an implementation in Java (called
>kawa). It allows you to compile scheme to Java (you end up with java
>code, nobody knows it's really scheme).
>It's at:
>http://www.gnu.org/software/kawa/
There's also Paul Graham's Silk (now maintained by Ken Anderson, I
think), which supports full call/cc (but is an order of magnitude
slower and doesn't have the full numeric tower).
Martin
--
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
Martin Cracauer <········@bik-gmbh.de> http://www.bik-gmbh.de/~cracauer/
FreeBSD - where you want to go. Today. http://www.freebsd.org/
········@counter.bik-gmbh.de (Martin Cracauer) writes:
>The Glauber <··········@my-deja.com> writes:
>>I don't know if anyone mentioned it yet, and it's not properly lisp,
>>but if you can do scheme, there's an implementation in Java (called
>>kawa). It allows you to compile scheme to Java (you end up with java
>>code, nobody knows it's really scheme).
>>It's at:
>>http://www.gnu.org/software/kawa/
>There's also Paul Graham's Silk (now maintained by Ken Anderson, I
>think), which supports full call/cc (but is an order of magnitude
>slower and doesn't have the full numeric tower).
Ops, that should have been Peter Norvig, not Paul Graham.
The maintained interpreter is at:
http://www.cs.brandeis.edu/silk/silkweb/index.html
Martin
--
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
Martin Cracauer <········@bik-gmbh.de> http://www.bik-gmbh.de/~cracauer/
FreeBSD - where you want to go. Today. http://www.freebsd.org/
I missed the beginning of this thread but if you are looking for Lisp
implemented in Java, or hybrid type languages take a look at:-
http://grunge.cs.tu-berlin.de/~tolk/vmlanguages.html
Which has links to about 15 different implementations of various levels of
complexity / completeness (including both SILK and Kawa).
chris
Martin Cracauer wrote:
> The Glauber <··········@my-deja.com> writes:
>
> >I don't know if anyone mentioned it yet, and it's not properly lisp,
> >but if you can do scheme, there's an implementation in Java (called
> >kawa). It allows you to compile scheme to Java (you end up with java
> >code, nobody knows it's really scheme).
>
> >It's at:
> >http://www.gnu.org/software/kawa/
>
> There's also Paul Graham's Silk (now maintained by Ken Anderson, I
> think), which supports full call/cc (but is an order of magnitude
> slower and doesn't have the full numeric tower).
>
> Martin
> --
> %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
> Martin Cracauer <········@bik-gmbh.de> http://www.bik-gmbh.de/~cracauer/
> FreeBSD - where you want to go. Today. http://www.freebsd.org/
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