From: Fernando Mato Mira
Subject: CLIM on Linux with native Motif look and feel?
Date:
Message-ID: <37DA6ED4.6CB23F83@iname.com>
Is Allegro CLIM the only option for CLIM development on Linux with
native Motif look and feel?
[Actually I don't know if it's really native or it's just emulated]
I don't mind the $2K for CLIM (provided there's a reasonable way of
distributing programs compiled with it),
but the continued price increases on ACL motivate me to `Just Say No'.
I won't use proprietary APIs and I _must_ provide a native look and
feel.
Garnet won't cut it for several reasons.
Looks like the best option would be GINA. It always gave me the
impression of being a very clean implementation. Is anybody
using/supporting it at all? How do the prospects of eventually adapting
it to other platforms (read: Windows) appear?
Thanks,
Fer
Fernando Mato Mira <········@iname.com> writes:
> Is Allegro CLIM the only option for CLIM development on Linux with
> native Motif look and feel?
CMUCL + Motif.
Cheers>
--
Marco Antoniotti ===========================================
PARADES, Via San Pantaleo 66, I-00186 Rome, ITALY
tel. +39 - 06 68 10 03 17, fax. +39 - 06 68 80 79 26
http://www.parades.rm.cnr.it/~marcoxa
From: Fernando Mato Mira
Subject: Re: CLIM on Linux with native Motif look and feel?
Date:
Message-ID: <37DA9B12.F44F6AC9@iname.com>
Marco Antoniotti wrote:
> Fernando Mato Mira <········@iname.com> writes:
>
> > Is Allegro CLIM the only option for CLIM development on Linux with
> > native Motif look and feel?
>
> CMUCL + Motif.
Where's the CLIM there?
:-P (`Direct Motif', I mean)
Thanks,
Fer
Blue-sky question:
Where would FreeCLIMB deal with going out to Motif?
Fernando Mato Mira <········@iname.com> writes:
> Marco Antoniotti wrote:
>
> > Fernando Mato Mira <········@iname.com> writes:
> >
> > > Is Allegro CLIM the only option for CLIM development on Linux with
> > > native Motif look and feel?
> >
> > CMUCL + Motif.
>
> Where's the CLIM there?
There isn't. I misread your question. Sorry.
Cheers
--
Marco Antoniotti ===========================================
PARADES, Via San Pantaleo 66, I-00186 Rome, ITALY
tel. +39 - 06 68 10 03 17, fax. +39 - 06 68 80 79 26
http://www.parades.rm.cnr.it/~marcoxa
From: Fernando Mato Mira
Subject: Re: CLIM on Linux with native Motif look and feel?
Date:
Message-ID: <37DCCAE3.139EF99E@iname.com>
> Marco Antoniotti wrote:
>
> > CMUCL + Motif.
Is this a direct version of the CLM API?
Fernando Mato Mira <········@iname.com> writes:
> > Marco Antoniotti wrote:
> >
> > > CMUCL + Motif.
>
> Is this a direct version of the CLM API?
It is a "more direct" version of CLM. It conses less and it is tuned
to CMUCL. CLM and CMUCL/Motif are not interchangeable. Moreover there is no
GINA. Finally, CMUCL/Motif has been reported to run with Lesstif..
Cheers
--
Marco Antoniotti ===========================================
PARADES, Via San Pantaleo 66, I-00186 Rome, ITALY
tel. +39 - 06 68 10 03 17, fax. +39 - 06 68 80 79 26
http://www.parades.rm.cnr.it/~marcoxa
From: Fernando Mato Mira
Subject: Re: CLIM on Linux with native Motif look and feel?
Date:
Message-ID: <37DD0E39.5D39CD96@iname.com>
Marco Antoniotti wrote:
> to CMUCL. CLM and CMUCL/Motif are not interchangeable. Moreover there is no
> GINA.
Yup. I was thinking how much work it would be to add the appropiate #+'s and
#-'s
to get GINA on top of it.
Fernando Mato Mira <········@iname.com> writes:
> Marco Antoniotti wrote:
>
> > to CMUCL. CLM and CMUCL/Motif are not interchangeable. Moreover there is no
> > GINA.
>
> Yup. I was thinking how much work it would be to add the appropiate
> #+'s and #-'s to get GINA on top of it.
I have faint memories of when I toyed with the idea. Basically it is
a minor problem of 'naming' (CMUCL is "more consistent" with Motif
than CLM) and of parameter passing conventions.
This would really call for an all-out port of GINA to CMUCL/Motif. On
top of that, there is the problem of some missing features of
CMUCL/Motif w.r.t. CLM. Most notably the "timer" feature. (Well, I
wrote some support code which made into CMUCL, but it really is just a
fraction of the CLM stuff and probably not very well thought out
either.)
Cheers
--
Marco Antoniotti ===========================================
PARADES, Via San Pantaleo 66, I-00186 Rome, ITALY
tel. +39 - 06 68 10 03 17, fax. +39 - 06 68 80 79 26
http://www.parades.rm.cnr.it/~marcoxa
From: Raymond Toy
Subject: Re: CLIM on Linux with native Motif look and feel?
Date:
Message-ID: <4nk8pu4zrc.fsf@rtp.ericsson.se>
>>>>> "Marco" == Marco Antoniotti <·······@copernico.parades.rm.cnr.it> writes:
Marco> GINA. Finally, CMUCL/Motif has been reported to run with Lesstif..
Yes, it does. I've run it on Linux with Lesstif. Well, at least the
graphical debugger works. But I use ILISP, so the graphical debugger
isn't really useful to me.
Ray
From: Paolo Amoroso
Subject: Re: CLIM on Linux with native Motif look and feel?
Date:
Message-ID: <37dd4b0b.31772@news.mclink.it>
On Mon, 13 Sep 1999 11:58:59 +0200, Fernando Mato Mira <········@iname.com>
wrote:
> > Marco Antoniotti wrote:
> >
> > > CMUCL + Motif.
>
> Is this a direct version of the CLM API?
There are some differences between CLM and the CMU CL implementation. They
are listed in the document "General Design Notes on the Motif Toolkit
Interface", available as file internals.doc in the src/docs/interface/
directory of the CMU CL source distribution. It also comes with the
EncyCMUCLopedia (see my signature). I include below the relevant section.
Paolo
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
[...]
Summary of differences with CLM --
----------------------------------
- X objects (eg. windows, fonts, pixmaps) are represented as CLX objects
rather than the home-brewed representations of CLM. As a consequence, this
requires that CLX be present in the core. If this were to cause
unacceptable core bloat, a skeletal CLX could be built which only supported
the required functionality.
- Stricter naming conventions are used, in particular for enumerated
types. A value named XmFOO_BAR in C will be called :foo-bar in Lisp,
consistently. Abbreviations such as :form (for :attach-form) are not
allowed since they are often ambiguous. Where CLM abbreviates callback
names (eg. XmNactivateCallback becomes :activate), we do not (eg.
:activate-callback).
- Some differently named functions which can be resolved without undo
hassle.
- Passing of information to callbacks and event handlers. In CLM,
callback handlers are defined as:
(defun handler (widget client-data &rest call-data) .... )
The client-data argument is some arbitrary data which was stashed with the
callback when it was registered by the application. The call-data
represents the call-data information provided by Motif to the callback
handler. Each data item of the callback information is passed as a
separate argument. In our world, callback handlers are defined as:
(defun handler (widget call-data &rest client-data) .... )
The call-data is packaged into a structure and passed as a single argument
and the user is allowed to register any number of items to be passed to the
callback as client-data. Being able to pass several items of client-data
is more convenient for the programmer and the packaging of the call-data
information is more appealing than splitting it apart into separate
arguments. Also, CLM only transports a limited subset of the available
callback information. We transport all information. Event handlers differ
in the same way. The client-data is the &rest arg and the event info is
packaged as a single object. Accessing the generating event in a callback
handler is done in the following manner:
(defun handler (widget call-data &rest client-data)
(with-callback-event (event call-data)
;; Access slots of event such as:
;; (event-window event) or
;; (button-event-x event)
))
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
EncyCMUCLopedia * Extensive collection of CMU Common Lisp documentation
http://cvs2.cons.org:8000/cmucl/doc/EncyCMUCLopedia/
Fernando Mato Mira <········@iname.com> writes:
> Is Allegro CLIM the only option for CLIM development on Linux with
> native Motif look and feel?
> [Actually I don't know if it's really native or it's just emulated]
No. Harlequin Lispworks comes with both their CAPI system and
CLIM. The Linux version uses Motif.
> Looks like the best option would be GINA. It always gave me the
> impression of being a very clean implementation. Is anybody
> using/supporting it at all? How do the prospects of eventually adapting
> it to other platforms (read: Windows) appear?
>
Never heard of it. URL?
--
Lieven Marchand <···@bewoner.dma.be>
If there are aliens, they play Go. -- Lasker
From: Fernando Mato Mira
Subject: Re: CLIM on Linux with native Motif look and feel?
Date:
Message-ID: <37DCC6FF.5736AC57@iname.com>
Lieven Marchand wrote:
> Fernando Mato Mira <········@iname.com> writes:
>
> > Is Allegro CLIM the only option for CLIM development on Linux with
> > native Motif look and feel?
> > [Actually I don't know if it's really native or it's just emulated]
>
> No. Harlequin Lispworks comes with both their CAPI system and
> CLIM. The Linux version uses Motif.
For CLIM too? Not just for CAPI?
> > Looks like the best option would be GINA. It always gave me the
> > impression of being a very clean implementation. Is anybody
> > using/supporting it at all? How do the prospects of eventually adapting
> > it to other platforms (read: Windows) appear?
> >
>
> Never heard of it. URL?
*sigh*
ftp://ftp.gmd.de/gmd/gina/
http://fit.gmd.de/projects/diva/gina/
http://www.first.gmd.de/connect/gina.html
http://fit.gmd.de/%7eberlage/my-publ.html
http://orgwis.gmd.de/projects/POLITeam/poliawac/ms-diss/diva.htm
http://fit.gmd.de/projects/bgp-ms/abis95-formatted.ps
http://orgwis.gmd.de/%7eprinz/pub/tosca-ecscw93/
Report hardcopies:
http://wsv.gmd.de/aiw/AP.htm
Thanks,
Fer
On Mon, 13 Sep 1999 11:42:23 +0200, Fernando Mato Mira <········@iname.com>
wrote:
> Lieven Marchand wrote:
>
> > Fernando Mato Mira <········@iname.com> writes:
> >
> > > Is Allegro CLIM the only option for CLIM development on Linux with
> > > native Motif look and feel?
> > > [Actually I don't know if it's really native or it's just emulated]
> >
> > No. Harlequin Lispworks comes with both their CAPI system and
> > CLIM. The Linux version uses Motif.
>
> For CLIM too? Not just for CAPI?
Yup. LispWorks for Linux Professional Edition includes CLIM using native Motif
on Linux.
__Jason
From: Fernando Mato Mira
Subject: Re: CLIM on Linux with native Motif look and feel?
Date:
Message-ID: <37DCF527.5D824A5E@iname.com>
Jason Trenouth wrote:
> Yup. LispWorks for Linux Professional Edition includes CLIM using native Motif
> on Linux.
Great! A couple more things::
1. What about performance? [I assume a user can't tell CLIM is behind]
2. Which Motif is preferred? Lesstif? Metro Link Motif?
3. Will it work on RedHat 6.x?
4. We dropped RetHat for SuSE. Will it install? Will it work? (6.1)
5. Last but not least, what about some specific official word that Lispworks is
really still here for good?
Thanks
From: Fernando Mato Mira
Subject: Re: CLIM on Linux with native Motif look and feel?
Date:
Message-ID: <37DCF7AC.9574E462@iname.com>
Fernando Mato Mira wrote:
> Jason Trenouth wrote:
>
> > Yup. LispWorks for Linux Professional Edition includes CLIM using native Motif
> > on Linux.
BTW, you should get the IBEX people to produce a Lispworks version of ITASCA
(given HPI's involvement in document management, there could be either a very good
or a very bad vibe regarding this now).
On Mon, 13 Sep 1999 14:59:19 +0200, Fernando Mato Mira <········@iname.com>
wrote:
> Jason Trenouth wrote:
>
> > Yup. LispWorks for Linux Professional Edition includes CLIM using native Motif
> > on Linux.
>
> Great! A couple more things::
>
> 1. What about performance? [I assume a user can't tell CLIM is behind]
Performance comparable to other Unix implementations of CLIM.
> 2. Which Motif is preferred? Lesstif? Metro Link Motif?
RedHat Motif 2.1.
> 3. Will it work on RedHat 6.x?
Yup.
> 4. We dropped RetHat for SuSE. Will it install? Will it work? (6.1)
It ought to.
> 5. Last but not least, what about some specific official word that Lispworks is
> really still here for good?
You better believe it.
__Jason
From: Fernando Mato Mira
Subject: Re: CLIM on Linux with native Motif look and feel?
Date:
Message-ID: <37DD42DB.1AE4271B@iname.com>
Jason Trenouth wrote:
> On Mon, 13 Sep 1999 14:59:19 +0200, Fernando Mato Mira <········@iname.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Jason Trenouth wrote:
> >
> > > Yup. LispWorks for Linux Professional Edition includes CLIM using native Motif
> > > on Linux.
> >
> > Great! A couple more things::
> >
> > 1. What about performance? [I assume a user can't tell CLIM is behind]
>
> Performance comparable to other Unix implementations of CLIM.
You mean SLOW?? (I remember XXXX's non-Motif CLIM 1.0 was a dog on a 100MHz Indigo)
> > 2. Which Motif is preferred? Lesstif? Metro Link Motif?
>
> RedHat Motif 2.1.
OK. That's an older version of Metro Link's
> > 5. Last but not least, what about some specific official word that Lispworks is
> > really still here for good?
>
> You better believe it.
I do, but others might not take _my_ word for it! :-i
Thanks a lot.
Fernando Mato Mira <········@iname.com> writes:
> Garnet won't cut it for several reasons.
>
> Looks like the best option would be GINA. It always gave me the
> impression of being a very clean implementation. Is anybody
> using/supporting it at all? How do the prospects of eventually adapting
> it to other platforms (read: Windows) appear?
GINA is not supported officially and I don't know about inofficial
support. I believe there's a mailing list somewhere.
While I was working at GMD (1996 ...), somebody sent me patches for
Solaris2. I added a couple of fixes and got GINA running in CMUCL17e
under SunOS4 and Solaris2 but never released that work. A student of
ours also used it with Lucid. I think it also worked with Allegro
(what IIRC the development team used).
I don't know how GINA could be ported to other GUIs. Some parts of it
are dependent on Motif (e.g. the :motif-resources keyword argument to
many constructor methods), while other items are well abstracted and
quite common in many GUIs (e.g. form constraints for positioning
gadgets/widgets/whatever their name).
Back in 1992 my project evaluated both Garnet and GINA and found GINA
better suiting our needs. Please try to look up DejaNews for comments
from me upon this. I could manage to put up somewhere on the net an
unofficial archive of that work and all documentation I still find.
DISCLAIMER: I was never involved in the GINA project team, it just
happened that when I came to GMD, its authors were next door, which
was fine :-) We had chosen to use GINA long before knowing we'd once
go to GMD.
[Personal comment: Years have gone by, gone of rumors about free
sources or CLIM within CMUCL, and yet the problem of finding a GUI
seems to me to be no better than in 1992 -- do I wish for too much?
But I haven't been following GUI issues for quite some time now.]
Regards,
Jorg Hohle
Telekom Research Center -- SW-Reliability
Maintainer of Amiga-CLISP
In article <···············@tzd.dont.telekom.spam.de.me>,
············@tzd.dont.telekom.spam.de.me (Joerg-Cyril Hoehle) writes:
> [Personal comment: Years have gone by, gone of rumors about free
> sources or CLIM within CMUCL, and yet the problem of finding a GUI
> seems to me to be no better than in 1992 -- do I wish for too much?
> But I haven't been following GUI issues for quite some time now.]
I personally don't think the CLIM sources will ever be released. The
ownership of those sources is just too convoluted for any of the owners to
bother with.
As for my implementation of CLIM from the spec, it's progress has come to a
long pause. I got distracted again this year by a woman. This time, I did
manage to get her down the aisle. Now that the honeymoon is over and she's
back in school, I'm hoping to get back to working on it. Unfortunately, a ton
of other projects have also backed up. So it will probably be a while before
I'm ready to relase anything.
Also contributing to the delay is my periodic questioning of whether
implementing CLIM is the "right thing" or not. Sometimes I think I should be
doing a "Tk style" GUI toolkit. Something simple that one could just get plain
ole GUIs done with. (I could have used a interface to Tk at work recently. I
had to prototype a GUI and they wanted it to be in Tcl/Tk. I hate Tcl so I
have my lisp code generate Tcl/Tk code for me. Still pretty distasteful!)
So anyway, I too long for a workable solution for GUIs in lisp.
Mike McDonald
·······@mikemac.com
From: Christopher R. Barry
Subject: Re: CLIM on Linux with native Motif look and feel?
Date:
Message-ID: <87r9jxf9uc.fsf@2xtreme.net>
·······@mikemac.com (Mike McDonald) writes:
> In article <···············@tzd.dont.telekom.spam.de.me>,
> ············@tzd.dont.telekom.spam.de.me (Joerg-Cyril Hoehle) writes:
>
> > [Personal comment: Years have gone by, gone of rumors about free
> > sources or CLIM within CMUCL, and yet the problem of finding a GUI
> > seems to me to be no better than in 1992 -- do I wish for too much?
> > But I haven't been following GUI issues for quite some time now.]
>
> I personally don't think the CLIM sources will ever be released. The
> ownership of those sources is just too convoluted for any of the owners to
> bother with.
>
> As for my implementation of CLIM from the spec, it's progress has come to a
> long pause. I got distracted again this year by a woman.
A woman is far more important than Lisp! (The right one, anyways. And
if you got her down the aisle then hopefully she was!) I'd say
"rescued" would be a better word than "distracted". :-)
[...]
> Also contributing to the delay is my periodic questioning of whether
> implementing CLIM is the "right thing" or not. Sometimes I think I
> should be doing a "Tk style" GUI toolkit. Something simple that one
> could just get plain ole GUIs done with.
I think CLIM is too big of burden for a single man to take on. Since
there aren't a whole lot of "worthwile" projects out there that used
CLIM worth saving (like a CLIM Emacs or something) it would probably
be better to salvage the best of CLIM (like presentations) and dump
the threading model and all the other cruft, and instead make a
simple, CLOS-based toolkit that provides a lot of good-performance
OpenGL-style procedural drawing primitives for immediate-mode graphics
(so you can efficiently make your own widgets and other stuff where
you need the control using a portable interface) and then some
declarative, higher-level graphics features on top of that that are
more in the Lisp spirit. Nothing too fancy, but good enough so that
you can get your basic scrollbar-and-forms interfaces done and also
portably implement something fancy atop it if need be. (Kinda like
scheme in a way....)
It seems OpenGL is now available for every graphics-capable
workstation Lisp runs on and it is a well established industry
standard and also widely implemented in commodity graphics hardware
these days, like the Matrox G200/G400 and Nvidia TNT/TNT2 cards. (It
even runs on Macs, though I'm not sure if there is a free OpenGL for
Macs like there is for everything else under the sun.)
A high-quality Lisp binding for GL connectivity would be a good start.
(I believe I've seen bindings on the net before, but I haven't used
any so I can't say anything about the quality.)
> So anyway, I too long for a workable solution for GUIs in lisp.
Harlequin's CAPI is nice and usable, and has a great doc. I'd rather
be using it than doing all the Perl/CGI/JavaScript crap I've been
having to do lately to be able to generate a little income.
Christopher
······@2xtreme.net (Christopher R. Barry) writes:
> It seems OpenGL is now available for every graphics-capable
> workstation Lisp runs on and it is a well established industry
> standard and also widely implemented in commodity graphics hardware
> these days, like the Matrox G200/G400 and Nvidia TNT/TNT2 cards. (It
> even runs on Macs, though I'm not sure if there is a free OpenGL for
> Macs like there is for everything else under the sun.)
> A high-quality Lisp binding for GL connectivity would be a good start.
> (I believe I've seen bindings on the net before, but I haven't used
> any so I can't say anything about the quality.)
OpenGL-bindings for ACL and CMUCL:
<URL:http://www.neci.nj.nec.com/homepages/mann/software-available.html>
As for making a GUI toolkit in OpenGL, I'm not sure if I like the
idea. Many attempts have been made to make GUIs in OpenGL and I
haven't seen any I've liked. (Of course, for graphics and games it's
great!) I feel that OpenGL should be used for what it's good for: 3D.
However, if anyone actually would do create a toolkit with OpenGL, I'd
be happy to contribute, or at least test/use it.
(I'm writing a small game/3d-lib using ACL/OpenGL and to be honest, I
can't remember last time I'd such fun programming. As a bonus, the
application runs both on Linux and Windows, without having to change
the code. I hope to have something worthy a 'release' around xmas. )
What I'd really like is a nice and easy way to access a standard/
widely used window toolkit, like GTK or KDE. KDE is written in C++ and
I suspect it would be hell to make a ffi/APi for it, but I've seen
some attempts at GTK, although none for Allegro Common Lisp which I
use.
Another way, which is how I suspect CLIM is working, would have to
have a top level API which would cover most of the commonly used
controls etc., and then develop back-end code for the various
toolkits, and thus achieving toolkit-portability.
Oh, does anyone have an URL to GTK-interface that works with ACL?
Sorry for the supercede, it's very late now. :-)
--
Lars
From: Christopher R. Barry
Subject: Re: CLIM on Linux with native Motif look and feel?
Date:
Message-ID: <87yae465f5.fsf@2xtreme.net>
······@gdpm.no (Lars Bj�nnes) writes:
> OpenGL-bindings for ACL and CMUCL:
>
> <URL:http://www.neci.nj.nec.com/homepages/mann/software-available.html>
>
> As for making a GUI toolkit in OpenGL, I'm not sure if I like the
> idea. Many attempts have been made to make GUIs in OpenGL and I
> haven't seen any I've liked.
Writing a full GUI in OpenGL is like... writing a full program in C!!
It's extremely tedious and error-prone. However, it's nice to have the
control over your graphics hardware when you need it so that you can
make parts of what you are doing really fast or really flashy, or
efficiently implement your own lower-level toolkit components.
Christopher
······@2xtreme.net (Christopher R. Barry) writes:
> Writing a full GUI in OpenGL is like... writing a full program in C!!
> It's extremely tedious and error-prone. However, it's nice to have the
> control over your graphics hardware when you need it so that you can
> make parts of what you are doing really fast or really flashy, or
> efficiently implement your own lower-level toolkit components.
There is an OpenGL-widget for GTK. I don't have an URL right now, but
if you're interested, I could dig it up.
OpenGL provides a lot of cool functionality, and for h/w-access the
ability to use 'hints' is very handy.
(It works like saying "Hey device, if you're able to render this fog
effect really nice, go ahead. If not, well, that's okay." :-))
--
Lars
From: Fernando Mato Mira
Subject: Re: CLIM on Linux with native Motif look and feel?
Date:
Message-ID: <37E5F05E.8C5CA68C@iname.com>
"Lars Bj�nnes" wrote:
> ······@2xtreme.net (Christopher R. Barry) writes:
>
> As for making a GUI toolkit in OpenGL, I'm not sure if I like the
> idea. Many attempts have been made to make GUIs in OpenGL and I
> haven't seen any I've liked. (Of course, for graphics and games it's
Well, that's the implementor's fault. Not OpenGL's.
What do you mean by `like'? Looks or `brains'?
We had a nice toolkit at EPFL-LIG, the Fifth Dimension Toolkit (5D Toolkit).
It was originally Postscript-based
(remember NeWS? Versions of IRIX previous to 4.0 also used that), but in
1991 the back-end was moved to OpenGL.
It was written in MOOC (Macro Object-Oriented C, an Objective-C-like thing
developed there, too). Then I provided Eiffel
bindings for it, and if I remember well, the guys wrote an Eiffel version
after that (they developed a really cool 3D GUI toolkit in Eiffel,
so my memory is fuzzy about the 2D thing). It had a GUI builder.
It was used for several years after they left (the MOOC thing. I had got a
CL, and nobody else cared about Eiffel (C (later C++) was OK with the
rest)). I have no idea what's the situation now (I wouldn't be surprised if
they had "evolved" to Motif).
> great!) I feel that OpenGL should be used for what it's good for: 3D.
What's wrong with the 2D operations? [not to mean one should use those to
write a GUI toolkit].
OpenGL is the way to go. Then you can put your widgets anywhere. All that
other 2D stuff is trash (except Postscript).