(1)
So LISP is not dying. I have learnt a lot from the answers I received. I'd
love to learn LISP. I glanced through the book by STEELE and it convinved
me, that LISP and Python are not in the same class. So my question was a bit
provocative but I did not want to hurt anybody's feelings.
(2)
By LISP I meant LISP and not Scheme. So the problem that has remained is
that I use Windows NT and I need some user interaction in my programs. So I
must be able either to access the WIN32 API directly or to have a toolkit,
ANY toolkit that does the work for me. And now it seems, there is no
solution at the moment. I received a lot of suggestions (some of them
privately) and neither of them worked.
Somebody even wrote that such a GUI toolkit would be against the spirit of
LISP!!!
(3)
I also received (privately) a lot of messages that were meant to offend me
and it seems to me that something is wrong in the state of Denmark. Anyway:
LISP is an esoteric business and the LISP community is secretive and not
friendly to newcomers (look at the Corman Lisp compiler for example that I
downloaded yesterday!!!).
Python is not in same class but the Python community is friendly and
evrything works and everything is very simple.
Janos
"Janos Blazi" <······@netsurf.de> writes:
> (2)
> By LISP I meant LISP and not Scheme. So the problem that has remained is
> that I use Windows NT and I need some user interaction in my programs. So I
> must be able either to access the WIN32 API directly or to have a toolkit,
> ANY toolkit that does the work for me. And now it seems, there is no
> solution at the moment. I received a lot of suggestions (some of them
> privately) and neither of them worked.
Head over to Harlequin (either http://www.harlequin.com/ or
http://www.harlequin.co.uk/), and download their Personal Edition of
LispWorks for Windows. This offers you a nice toolkit (though no
Interface Builder), a nice IDE and a nice Lisp implementation. It has
a few limitations (like a 4h limit per session, and a heap-size
limit), but it should be plenty for learning CL, about Harlequin's
implementation and it's toolkits. Then, if you decide to do real work
in CL, you can either purchase one of Harlequin's other editions (the
Professional Edition is very good value for money, giving you all of
the Personal Edition without the limitations, plus the Interface
Builder, CLIM, and royalty-free application delivery), or take a look
at the other implementations for windows out there.
Or take a look at Franz's site (http://www.franz.com/), they have a
very nice version of their implementation for Windows, and IIRC they
have a demo/personal version available for download/shipping as well.
> I also received (privately) a lot of messages that were meant to
> offend me and it seems to me that something is wrong in the state of
> Denmark. Anyway: LISP is an esoteric business and the LISP community
> is secretive and not friendly to newcomers (look at the Corman Lisp
> compiler for example that I downloaded yesterday!!!).
I don't think that the Lisp community is secretive, and I don't think
that Lisp is esoteric either. Take a look at http://www.alu.org/.
That doesn't sound secretive. OTOH you are right that the community
currently hasn't got the resources/will to make a single, focused
presentation to new-comers. Maybe this will change in the future, but
this takes resources and time, both of which are scarce as always...
Regs, Pierre.
--
Pierre Mai <····@acm.org> PGP and GPG keys at your nearest Keyserver
"One smaller motivation which, in part, stems from altruism is Microsoft-
bashing." [Microsoft memo, see http://www.opensource.org/halloween1.html]
On Wed, 27 Oct 1999 16:36:30 +0200, "Eugene Zaikonnikov"
<······@removeme.cit.org.by> wrote:
: > LISP is an esoteric business and the LISP community is secretive and not
: > friendly to newcomers (look at the Corman Lisp compiler for example that I
: > downloaded yesterday!!!).
Uh?
Have you smoked?
Shin <···@retemail.es> wrote in message
······················@news.iddeo.es...
> On Wed, 27 Oct 1999 16:36:30 +0200, "Eugene Zaikonnikov"
> <······@removeme.cit.org.by> wrote:
>
> : > LISP is an esoteric business and the LISP community is secretive and
not
> : > friendly to newcomers (look at the Corman Lisp compiler for example
that I
> : > downloaded yesterday!!!).
>
> Uh?
>
> Have you smoked?
It's nice that you care. Yes. Tobacco. Just 15 minutes ago.
Looks like you're not downloaded the whole message. The part you quoted is
of the original poster.
Cheers,
Eugene.
On Wed, 27 Oct 1999 21:55:52 +0200, "Eugene Zaikonnikov"
<······@removeme.cit.org.by> wrote:
: > On Wed, 27 Oct 1999 16:36:30 +0200, "Eugene Zaikonnikov"
: > <······@removeme.cit.org.by> wrote:
: >
: > : > LISP is an esoteric business and the LISP community is secretive and not
: > : > friendly to newcomers (look at the Corman Lisp compiler for example that I
: > : > downloaded yesterday!!!).
: >
: > Uh?
: >
: > Have you smoked?
:
: It's nice that you care. Yes. Tobacco. Just 15 minutes ago.
: Looks like you're not downloaded the whole message. The part you quoted is
: of the original poster.
Excuse me, I haven't received the original message but I thought
that the double quotation signs to the left of the text were a
clear way to indicate that the quoted text wasn't written by you.
Of course, my question had to do with the quoted text.
Being a user of his console Lisp compiler (that is, that enourmous
amount of work you can download and use *for free*) I have written
some emails to Roger Corman and he has always kindly responded to
them.
Also, I self-study Lisp and people in c.l.l. have answered my basic
questions with a very friendly tone, explanations with example code
and courtesy copies.
I couldn't resist to be ironic with the op.
-- Shin
Shin <···@retemail.es> wrote in message
······················@news.iddeo.es...
[snip]
>
> Excuse me, I haven't received the original message but I thought
> that the double quotation signs to the left of the text were a
> clear way to indicate that the quoted text wasn't written by you.
>
> Of course, my question had to do with the quoted text.
>
Oh, I see. Because only my name was present in your reply, I decided that
you address me with your post.
Cheers,
Eugene.
On Thu, 28 Oct 1999 12:01:43 +0200, "Eugene Zaikonnikov"
<······@removeme.cit.org.by> wrote:
: > Excuse me, I haven't received the original message but I thought
: > that the double quotation signs to the left of the text were a
: > clear way to indicate that the quoted text wasn't written by you.
: >
: > Of course, my question had to do with the quoted text.
: >
: Oh, I see. Because only my name was present in your reply, I decided that
: you address me with your post.
Yes, this was my fault. I ought to have erased the automatic header to
avoid confusions.
With best regards from Barcelona,
-- Shin
>(3)
>I also received (privately) a lot of messages that were meant to offend me
>and it seems to me that something is wrong in the state of Denmark. Anyway:
>LISP is an esoteric business and the LISP community is secretive and not
>friendly to newcomers (look at the Corman Lisp compiler for example that I
>downloaded yesterday!!!).
I would certainly be interested in any comments or suggestions you
have regarding Corman Lisp. You can send me mail at:
····@corman.net
Roger Corman
In article <······························@broadway.news.is-europe.net>,
"Janos Blazi" <······@netsurf.de> wrote:
> I also received (privately) a lot of messages that were meant to
offend me
> and it seems to me that something is wrong in the state of Denmark.
Anyway:
> LISP is an esoteric business and the LISP community is secretive and
not
> friendly to newcomers (look at the Corman Lisp compiler for example
that I
> downloaded yesterday!!!).
GOSH! You really do need a lot of hand-holding. What was so difficult,
secretive, and unfriendly about installing Corman Lisp??? Or running it
except that it reminds you that you have an evaluation copy and someone
wants a little money for time and effort. Maybe you would be happier in
management - with somebody else writing your programs for you?
As for the friendlyness of the Python newsgroup - try posting with some
of these subject lines: Is Python Dying?; Why is Python so Slow?; Why is
there no Python Native compiler?; Lisp is better than Python; Perl is
better than Python, etc.
--
John Watton
Alcoa Inc.
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
John Watton wrote:
> In article <······························@broadway.news.is-europe.net>,
> "Janos Blazi" <······@netsurf.de> wrote:
>
> > I also received (privately) a lot of messages that were meant to
> offend me
> > and it seems to me that something is wrong in the state of Denmark.
See? Why are some people so harsh w.r.t. Norway? ;-)
> Anyway:
> > LISP is an esoteric business and the LISP community is secretive and
> not
> > friendly to newcomers (look at the Corman Lisp compiler for example
> that I
> > downloaded yesterday!!!).
>
> GOSH! You really do need a lot of hand-holding. What was so difficult,
> secretive, and unfriendly about installing Corman Lisp??? Or running it
> except that it reminds you that you have an evaluation copy and someone
> wants a little money for time and effort. Maybe you would be happier in
> management - with somebody else writing your programs for you?
>
> As for the friendlyness of the Python newsgroup - try posting with some
> of these subject lines: Is Python Dying?; Why is Python so Slow?; Why is
> there no Python Native compiler?; Lisp is better than Python; Perl is
> better than Python, etc.
Hey, at least you can carry .sigs in this one! ;-)
--
Fernando D. Mato Mira
Real-Time SW Eng & Networking
Advanced Systems Engineering Division
CSEM
Jaquet-Droz 1 email: matomira AT acm DOT org
CH-2007 Neuchatel tel: +41 (32) 720-5157
Switzerland FAX: +41 (32) 720-5720
www.csem.ch www.vrai.com ligwww.epfl.ch/matomira.html
Janos Blazi wrote:
>
> (2)
> By LISP I meant LISP and not Scheme. So the problem that has remained is
> that I use Windows NT and I need some user interaction in my programs. So I
> must be able either to access the WIN32 API directly or to have a toolkit,
> ANY toolkit that does the work for me. And now it seems, there is no
> solution at the moment. I received a lot of suggestions (some of them
> privately) and neither of them worked.
There are commercial alternatives available. Check out
www.harlequin.com or www.franz.com. A good starting point for Lisp
questions would be www.cons.org.
>
> Somebody even wrote that such a GUI toolkit would be against the spirit of
> LISP!!!
Do you believe that Lispers are better men? ;-)
>
> (3)
> I also received (privately) a lot of messages that were meant to offend me
> and it seems to me that something is wrong in the state of Denmark. Anyway:
> LISP is an esoteric business and the LISP community is secretive and not
> friendly to newcomers (look at the Corman Lisp compiler for example that I
> downloaded yesterday!!!).
What does it have done to you? I'm quite amazed than an environmant can
do such a thing.
If you come into a news-group with lisp in it and start a thread with is
Lisp dying what do you exepect Lisp lover to do?
>
> Python is not in same class but the Python community is friendly and
> evrything works and everything is very simple.
Sorry what does not work in Lisp? And why don't you give Lisp a try or
maybe any other functional language. I think it's worth doing. BTW I
just started with Scheme and Lisp not long ago. And I have to admit
they gave you insight into antoher kind of programming which you don't
learn otherwise.
So I would suggest you do some programming in Lisp aske some questions
if you don't know how good you've done and on that knowledge you can
decide if Lisp per se or Lispers are unfriendly .
Till then?
Friedrich
>
> Janos
* Janos Blazi
| I also received (privately) a lot of messages that were meant to offend
| me and it seems to me that something is wrong in the state of Denmark.
whether you realize by now it or not, your subject question was deeply
offensive to this community.
| LISP is an esoteric business and the LISP community is secretive and not
| friendly to newcomers [...]
and you keep going with your very own highly offensive opinionating...
did you really _expect_ anyone to be friendly to a newcomer who makes
broad, negative generalizations like you do about a community you just
started communicating with? if so, why?
the Lisp community is a little defensive against your attitudes, that's
all. you're not the only kind of newcomer Lisp sees, however. lots of
people approach new languages and communities with respect and a desire
to learn. they also find what naturally comes to them: mutual respect,
instead of mutual disrespect.
#:Erik
I doubt you made anyone genuinely angry. You were just unlucky that someone
asked the same question with the /exact/ same words a couple of weeks ago, and
many people are just too busy to repeat any insightful answers. when you can
just read the whole thing in deja.com .
Now, regarding what someone said about PL/I et al. It's not quite the same
status. One would not expect Pascal to make a comeback, for example. On the
other hand, the number of new people that have been popping up in the last few
months is simply astonishing [maybe it _does_ pay to troll in comp.lang.python
after all ;->]
--
((( DANGER )) LISP BIGOT (( DANGER )) LISP BIGOT (( DANGER )))
Fernando D. Mato Mira
Real-Time SW Eng & Networking
Advanced Systems Engineering Division
CSEM
Jaquet-Droz 1 email: matomira AT acm DOT org
CH-2007 Neuchatel tel: +41 (32) 720-5157
Switzerland FAX: +41 (32) 720-5720
www.csem.ch www.vrai.com ligwww.epfl.ch/matomira.html
"Fernando D. Mato Mira" <········@iname.com> writes:
> Now, regarding what someone said about PL/I et al. It's not quite the same
> status. One would not expect Pascal to make a comeback, for example.
But it did. They just bundled it with a GUI and a database engine and
called it Delphi ;-)
More seriously, I did say those languages were in a worse shape than
Lisp. But my point remained that I wouldn't call them dead.
BTW, if you ever meet a PL/1 hacker and call his language Pascal
you'll know first hand how hostile a community they can be ;-)
--
Lieven Marchand <···@bewoner.dma.be>
If there are aliens, they play Go. -- Lasker
>>>>> "Lieven" == Lieven Marchand <···@bewoner.dma.be> writes:
Lieven> More seriously, I did say those languages were in a worse shape than
Lieven> Lisp. But my point remained that I wouldn't call them dead.
My personal theory is that no language that has ever made it out of
the laboratories will ever truly die.
When I was browsing through the proceedings of HOPL I (History Of
Programming Languages, a conference held every 10 years and highly
recommendable reading), I recognized all entries on the langauge
evolution chart except one or two.
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Phone: +45 8628 8177 + 28 | email: ···@tbit.dk --- URL: http://www.tbit.dk
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Hit the philistines three times over the head with the Elisp reference manual.
- ·······@hal.com (Michael A. Petonic)