Hi!
a) Can you use activex controls with the windows (ide) version? O:-)
b) What's the pricing and licensing conditions? I haven't seen any
mention to it at their site and it makes me fear the worst... ;-)
//-----------------------------------------------
// Fernando Rodriguez Romero
//
// frr at mindless dot com
//------------------------------------------------
Fernando <·······@must.die> wrote:
> a) Can you use activex controls with the windows (ide) version? O:-)
> b) What's the pricing and licensing conditions? I haven't seen any
> mention to it at their site and it makes me fear the worst... ;-)
ad (b): ask info (at) franz (dot) com.
--
Clemens Heitzinger
http://ag.or.at:8000/~clemens (Lisp related material)
On Thu, 11 Nov 1999 18:34:44 +0100, ········@ag.or.at (Clemens
Heitzinger) wrote:
>Fernando <·······@must.die> wrote:
>
>> a) Can you use activex controls with the windows (ide) version? O:-)
>> b) What's the pricing and licensing conditions? I haven't seen any
>> mention to it at their site and it makes me fear the worst... ;-)
>
>ad (b): ask info (at) franz (dot) com.
I did. No answer.
//-----------------------------------------------
// Fernando Rodriguez Romero
//
// frr at mindless dot com
//------------------------------------------------
* Fernando Rodriguez Romero
| I did. No answer.
did you remember to use a working e-mail address? I keep getting mail
from people who use the same address for mail and news, and they seem to
think that I want to figure out how to un-spam-protect their addresses or
parse it out from signatures or run various funky scripts or code to
arrive at a valid address. such people are worse than spammers, since I
may actually want to reply to them, and can't, because they thwart the
essential connectivity principle of e-mail out of a selfish concern not
to be spammed, forcing the people they _want_ to talk to to waste time.
#:Erik
--
Attention Microsoft Shoppers! MS Monopoly Money 6.0 are now worthless.
On 12 Nov 1999 20:30:28 +0000, Erik Naggum <····@naggum.no> wrote:
>* Fernando Rodriguez Romero
>| I did. No answer.
>
> did you remember to use a working e-mail address? I keep getting mail
Of course I did ( I was answering an email _they_ sent me).
> from people who use the same address for mail and news, and they seem to
> think that I want to figure out how to un-spam-protect their addresses or
I don't use the same signature for email, but even if I did I
still think that any person (even a braindead one) should be able to
figure out my email address from "frr at mindless dot com". No "funky
scripts" needed here.
Obviously that person would have to be slightly interested in
"figuring out" my email address (as if I was a prospect customer
asking for some info about their product, for example).
The fact is that they have my email and some sales rep. wrote
to me after receiving the CD. I asked a few questions, and after one
month I'm still waiting. If this is their attitude before having your
money...
I think I'll go the Harlequin way, so it doesn't really matter
that much after all, but it's still a good example on how to lose
sales.
> parse it out from signatures or run various funky scripts or code to
> arrive at a valid address. such people are worse than spammers, since I
You haven't been spammed enough... ;-)
//-----------------------------------------------
// Fernando Rodriguez Romero
//
// frr at mindless dot com
//------------------------------------------------
* ·······@must.die (Fernando)
| Of course I did ( I was answering an email _they_ sent me).
that wasn't what you said you did the first time around.
| I don't use the same signature for email, but even if I did ...
it is really quite interesting that you get so aggressive about this.
| I asked a few questions, and after one month I'm still waiting. If this
| is their attitude before having your money...
I see but one source of attitude, and is it not a fair assessment that
you would be extraordinarily hard to please at this time? going public
with stupid gripes is not a good way to become a valued customer. even
if you think you have the right to complain vociferously everywhere you
go, it cuts both ways.
| I think I'll go the Harlequin way, so it doesn't really matter that much
| after all, but it's still a good example on how to lose sales.
or how to avoid losing on some sales. you're hurting them now, for no
good reason, and there's little reason to think you will stop once you
get the product. find a bug? send a bug report and try to fix it? nah,
we'll have to assume you'll broadcast how crappy their product is, right?
sometimes, it pays to have a sign in your shop saying "we reserve the
right to deny service to anyone at any time". nice people appreciate it.
| You haven't been spammed enough... ;-)
good grief. the intelligent approach is an SMTP server in Common Lisp
that learns from what you reject and adapts its rules for denying mail
from various sources. but maybe you need a Common Lisp implementation
before you can get there and this "spam protection" is the best people
can do _without_ Common Lisp at their service...?
#:Erik
--
Attention Microsoft Shoppers! MS Monopoly Money 6.0 are now worthless.
In article <················@naggum.no> Erik Naggum <····@naggum.no>
wrote:
> good grief. the intelligent approach is an SMTP server in Common
Lisp
> that learns from what you reject and adapts its rules for denying
mail
> from various sources.
Another approach is to bounce all e-mail from sites such as earthlink.
-andy
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
On 13 Nov 1999 01:45:13 +0000, Erik Naggum <····@naggum.no> wrote:
>* ·······@must.die (Fernando)
>| Of course I did ( I was answering an email _they_ sent me).
>
> that wasn't what you said you did the first time around.
Well, I though it would be obvious that if I ask them
something I did provide a vaild email address...
>| I don't use the same signature for email, but even if I did ...
>
> it is really quite interesting that you get so aggressive about this.
Aggressive? No, not at all.
>| I asked a few questions, and after one month I'm still waiting. If this
>| is their attitude before having your money...
>
> I see but one source of attitude, and is it not a fair assessment that
> you would be extraordinarily hard to please at this time? going public
Hard to please? One month later? I answer all my emails in 24
hours, anything else is procrastination.
> with stupid gripes is not a good way to become a valued customer. even
> if you think you have the right to complain vociferously everywhere you
> go, it cuts both ways.
You have a point here: some people really think they have this
right. Some may even think it's their duty. ;-D
>| I think I'll go the Harlequin way, so it doesn't really matter that much
>| after all, but it's still a good example on how to lose sales.
>
> or how to avoid losing on some sales. you're hurting them now, for no
> good reason, and there's little reason to think you will stop once you
No, I'm not hurting or trying to hurt them at all. This is
not a flame against Franz and I'm not mad with them. If you read my
original post, you will see that I was trying to get some information
about their product (which means I'm interested in it) from some
customer (since I couldn't get it from them). It's interesting that I
got no valid answers either, must be a coincidence. ;-)
Yesterday I downloaded lispworks, and I think I'll go that
way. Maybe they dont answer emails either (who knows ;-), but at
least the relevant information (price and licensing) is available
where it should be: the website.
> get the product. find a bug? send a bug report and try to fix it? nah,
> we'll have to assume you'll broadcast how crappy their product is, right?
You seem very touchy when it comes to Franz (among many other things).
It reminds me how the aggressive zealotery of some Amiga and OS/2
fans helped Commodore and IBM to succesfully market their product.
But don't worry, nice people do understand that your charming
personality has nothing to do with Franz, and it won't hurt Allegro's
sales. ;-)
> sometimes, it pays to have a sign in your shop saying "we reserve the
> right to deny service to anyone at any time". nice people appreciate it.
Let me guess.... that sign in Franz's shop is Erik Naggum,
right? Give me a break, will you?.
//-----------------------------------------------
// Fernando Rodriguez Romero
//
// frr at mindless dot com
//------------------------------------------------
* ·······@must.die (Fernando)
| Yesterday I downloaded lispworks, and I think I'll go that way.
I hope you're aware that Franz has offered free versions for longer than
Harlequin, in particular for Linux.
| You seem very touchy when it comes to Franz (among many other things).
no, I'm touchy about all things I care about that are maligned unfairly,
and I'm irritated at people who post with forged and silly addresses in
general, which was the gist of my criticism, which at least appeared to
have touched a raw nerve with you, an issue I think you dodge and take
out on Franz, instead, again being unfair to me _and_ them.
that you interpret me as being at least somewhat Franz-specific must be
because you're being Franz-specifically unfairly maligning. we just had
a discussion here where Harlequin were being cast as the "underdog",
which I think is even more of an unfair characterization, and I went on
at length about why this did not serve either them or the Lisp market.
| It reminds me how the aggressive zealotery of some Amiga and OS/2 fans
| helped Commodore and IBM to succesfully market their product.
that you are reminded of this indicates a mindset that does not have
"fairness" close to its top priorities... you're going out of your way
to be even more unfair in your assessment of the situation, which sort of
proves my point, too: it wouldn't be any fun having you as _my_ customer,
which is all I want you to consider. but I couldn't even venture a guess
that's the _exact_ reason you haven't heard from them, however.
| But don't worry, nice people do understand that your charming personality
| has nothing to do with Franz, and it won't hurt Allegro's sales. ;-)
thank you for your kind words. ;)
| Let me guess.... that sign in Franz's shop is Erik Naggum, right?
no, entirely wrong guess. that sign is basically on the entire building
and in several places near them; Berkeley is a nice place with lots of
really weird people. for a visiting furriner like myself, stuff like
this takes on a different proportion than it does for "natives". (I
guess it might have been a little internal.)
| Give me a break, will you?
funny, that's basically what I'm telling you to give Franz Inc.
#:Erik
--
Attention Microsoft Shoppers! MS Monopoly Money 6.0 are now worthless.
On 13 Nov 1999 14:15:24 +0000, Erik Naggum <····@naggum.no> wrote:
> I hope you're aware that Franz has offered free versions for longer than
> Harlequin, in particular for Linux.
No I didn't, but I don't see how this is relevant. Besides,
I'm afraid this thread doesn't have much to do with Allegro anymore.
>| You seem very touchy when it comes to Franz (among many other things).
>
> no, I'm touchy about all things I care about that are maligned unfairly,
Maligned unfairly? =:-O Sounds a bit paranoid to me...
> and I'm irritated at people who post with forged and silly addresses in
Well, I must recognize that you are right. Unfortunately, I'm
still not ego-sick enough to buy a domain name with my own name, but I
might improve (given enough time, of course). This is why I have to
use inferior and silly addresses. I know that you will understand.
;-)
> general, which was the gist of my criticism, which at least appeared to
> have touched a raw nerve with you, an issue I think you dodge and take
> out on Franz, instead, again being unfair to me _and_ them.
Sorry to disappoint you, but no "raw nerves" or anything like
that. I asked two simple questions, that maybe you could have
answered. Instead, you came up with your usual flaming style that
contributes zero to the ng.
Well...maybe, I've been a bit rude: zero is too much (sorry).
After all, most flamers are funny (sometimes).
I'm not taking anything out on Franz (or anybody else), these
are figments of your imagination. I'm not upset with Franz at all (or
with you, btw): normal people aren't _that_ easily irritated, trust
me. :-)
>| It reminds me how the aggressive zealotery of some Amiga and OS/2 fans
>| helped Commodore and IBM to succesfully market their product.
>
> that you are reminded of this indicates a mindset that does not have
> "fairness" close to its top priorities... you're going out of your way
> to be even more unfair in your assessment of the situation, which sort of
Oh, so this is what you meant by "touching a raw nerve"? Ok,
now I get it, thanks. :-)
>| But don't worry, nice people do understand that your charming personality
>| has nothing to do with Franz, and it won't hurt Allegro's sales. ;-)
>
> thank you for your kind words. ;)
You're welcome. :-)
//-----------------------------------------------
// Fernando Rodriguez Romero
//
// frr at mindless dot com
//------------------------------------------------
* ·······@must.die (Fernando)
| Unfortunately, I'm still not ego-sick enough to buy a domain name with my
| own name, but I might improve (given enough time, of course). This is
| why I have to use inferior and silly addresses. I know that you will
| understand. ;-)
what an incredibly cheap shot you are. while perennial newbies buy
domain names for fun, there are people who have been on the Net since
1987, long before any one of you knew that it existed, have helped shape
it, and who live in countries where domain names are government regulated
and restricted to officially registered businesses. too much for a fool
to want to find out, of course, but that's why you use silly addresses
and keep going on and on and on being stupidly unfair to everybody, and
then you're sorry about it. mindless.com, indeed. how apt.
now that you have gotten your egocentric attention craving satisfied from
Franz Inc, too, will you stop? no apology is as good as quitting what
you have to apologize for. no apology is any good if you continue.
#:Erik
--
Attention Microsoft Shoppers! MS Monopoly Money 6.0 are now worthless.
On 14 Nov 1999 21:41:44 +0000, Erik Naggum <····@naggum.no> wrote:
>* ·······@must.die (Fernando)
>| Unfortunately, I'm still not ego-sick enough to buy a domain name with my
>| own name, but I might improve (given enough time, of course). This is
>| why I have to use inferior and silly addresses. I know that you will
>| understand. ;-)
>
> what an incredibly cheap shot you are. while perennial newbies buy
> domain names for fun, there are people who have been on the Net since
[snip]
I really can't understand why people consider sliced bread
such a great invention, specially compared to kill files. I give up:
you're definatelly not worth wasting more time. plonk
//-----------------------------------------------
// Fernando Rodriguez Romero
//
// frr at mindless dot com
//------------------------------------------------
I am delighted to learn that it seems to be possible to judge the character
of a person from his email address. I have not known this but I am not
fluent in LISP either. Are such predictions or judgements parts of the ANSI
norm?
Well, judging a person's character from his email address reveals a very
deep insight into human nature indeed, an insight that is not easily found
elsewhere, I dare say.
Janos B.
Fernando <·······@must.die> schrieb in im Newsbeitrag:
················@news.wanadoo.es...
> On 14 Nov 1999 21:41:44 +0000, Erik Naggum <····@naggum.no> wrote:
>
> >* ·······@must.die (Fernando)
> >| Unfortunately, I'm still not ego-sick enough to buy a domain name with
my
> >| own name, but I might improve (given enough time, of course). This is
> >| why I have to use inferior and silly addresses. I know that you will
> >| understand. ;-)
> >
> > what an incredibly cheap shot you are. while perennial newbies buy
> > domain names for fun, there are people who have been on the Net since
> [snip]
>
> I really can't understand why people consider sliced bread
> such a great invention, specially compared to kill files. I give up:
> you're definatelly not worth wasting more time. plonk
>
>
>
>
> file://-----------------------------------------------
> // Fernando Rodriguez Romero
> //
> // frr at mindless dot com
> file://------------------------------------------------
* "Janos Blazi" <······@netsurf.de>
| I am delighted to learn that it seems to be possible to judge the character
| of a person from his email address.
well, introspection never was your strong suit. netsurf.de. say no more.
#:Erik
--
Attention Microsoft Shoppers! MS Monopoly Money 6.0 are now worthless.
But "netsurf" is o.k. I suppose. It is the "de" that is fundamentally evil.
(Of course netsurf.c++ would be even worse!")
Erik Naggum <····@naggum.no> schrieb in im Newsbeitrag:
················@naggum.no...
> * "Janos Blazi" <······@netsurf.de>
> | I am delighted to learn that it seems to be possible to judge the
character
> | of a person from his email address.
>
> well, introspection never was your strong suit. netsurf.de. say no
more.
>
> #:Erik
> --
> Attention Microsoft Shoppers! MS Monopoly Money 6.0 are now worthless.
Erik Naggum wrote:
>
> while perennial newbies buy
> domain names for fun, there are people who have been on the Net since
> 1987, long before any one of you knew that it existed, have helped shape
> it, and who live in countries where domain names are government regulated
> and restricted to officially registered businesses.
OTOH, I assume the phone number is a vanity thing?
Ian Wild wrote:
> OTOH, I assume the phone number is a vanity thing?
Only when starting with 800, 888 or 877 ;-)
--
((( DANGER )) LISP BIGOT (( DANGER )) LISP BIGOT (( DANGER )))
Fernando D. Mato Mira
Real-Time SW Eng & Networking
Advanced Systems Engineering Division
CSEM
Jaquet-Droz 1 email: matomira AT acm DOT org
CH-2007 Neuchatel tel: +41 (32) 720-5157
Switzerland FAX: +41 (32) 720-5720
www.csem.ch www.vrai.com ligwww.epfl.ch/matomira.html
* Ian Wild <···@cfmu.eurocontrol.be>
| OTOH, I assume the phone number is a vanity thing?
no, I was just plain lucky, but I am positively delighted that you asked
me this incredibly important question. it so adds to the value of this
newsgroup to have such detail-oriented fans. but it would be even better
if they could get a grip on themselves and hurl themselves out of their
much too person-oriented mental state. thank you.
#:Erik
--
Attention Microsoft Shoppers! MS Monopoly Money 6.0 are now worthless.
·······@must.die (Fernando) writes:
> >| I asked a few questions, and after one month I'm still waiting. If this
> >| is their attitude before having your money...
> >
> > I see but one source of attitude, and is it not a fair assessment that
> > you would be extraordinarily hard to please at this time? going public
>
> Hard to please? One month later? I answer all my emails in 24
> hours, anything else is procrastination.
I was not intending to answer this on the net, but I thought I should
put forth some facts in this case, before this conversation gets out
of hand. I apologize to the newsgroup for this non-lisp-oriented
posting.
1. Your first message was received by us on Thursday sometime, and I
thought little of the problem, because I knew that our sales team,
who get a summary of postings to comp.lang.lisp the next day, could
look at the issue and figure out what had gone wrong.
2. When it became clear late Friday that you had not received a response,
I went to the sales department, some of whom had already gone home
(those who deal with Europe come in early in the morning and thus go home
earlier) to find out who "Fernando Rodriguez Romero" was and what his
story was. Our sales manager looked in our database and found nobody with
the address you list below (even after de-spamming) but we did find a
"Fernando Rodriguez" in Spain with a completely different email address.
I will not give this address out, in case you and he are not the same
person, in consideration for that potentially other-person's privacy.
The database said that a CD was sent to him, and that he had an ActiveX
question, and that an email was sent (presumably to that address).
We are assuming that this person, though with a slightly truncated name and
a completely different email address, was probably you. Is this the case?
3. Since those salespeople who were involved with this person's question
had gone home on Friday, we will not know what was sent in that last
email until next week, nor whether the mail bounced, nor whether he
had happened to notice the difference in the email address. I suspect that
if you gave it as "frr at mindless dot com", it was not even recognized
as an email address, and the one in the database was used. But I'm
speculating here, so I'll quit...
Our sales manager tells me that very often people place anti-spamming
measures in their email, and that the sales team usually have to do
some serious work to figure out who and where a person really is.
He assures me that they do this work aggressively.
Fernando, I apologize on behalf of my Company for your bad experience.
It is certainly not our intention that this occur. We hope to have
a resolution to this problem very soon.
I don't intend to post c.l.l on this thread again, except to answer any
specific questions. I suspect that any further correspondences will
be through private email.
> //-----------------------------------------------
> // Fernando Rodriguez Romero
> //
> // frr at mindless dot com
> //------------------------------------------------
--
Duane Rettig Franz Inc. http://www.franz.com/ (www)
1995 University Ave Suite 275 Berkeley, CA 94704
Phone: (510) 548-3600; FAX: (510) 548-8253 ·····@Franz.COM (internet)
On 13 Nov 1999 08:23:59 -0800, Duane Rettig <·····@franz.com> wrote:
>We are assuming that this person, though with a slightly truncated name and
>a completely different email address, was probably you. Is this the case?
Yes that's me.
>3. Since those salespeople who were involved with this person's question
>had gone home on Friday, we will not know what was sent in that last
>email until next week, nor whether the mail bounced, nor whether he
>had happened to notice the difference in the email address. I suspect that
No, I only used "the other one". All that story about
anti-spam consfusion are someone else's wild speculations. ;-)
>Fernando, I apologize on behalf of my Company for your bad experience.
>It is certainly not our intention that this occur. We hope to have
>a resolution to this problem very soon.
Please, there's no need to take it this seriously, I think it
was just a matter of bad luck, that's all. I asked it here because I
thought that maybe some of your customers could answer it, I never
thought it would go out of hand this way. :-)
Some things I said were unnecessarily harsh and they weren't
motivated by an answer I got and not by your company. I'm sorry.
>I don't intend to post c.l.l on this thread again, except to answer any
>specific questions. I suspect that any further correspondences will
>be through private email.
Yes, this thread has gone too far.
//-----------------------------------------------
// Fernando Rodriguez Romero
//
// frr at mindless dot com
//------------------------------------------------