i potentially have an opportunity to buy a symbolics xl400. after hearing
the old-timers on this group wax nostalgic about these machines for years,
i'm seriously considering opening my checkbook for this opportunity.
however, there are three questions for which i need answers before I take
the plunge:
(1) the machine lacks both a keyboard and mouse. i assume these pieces
were custom. is it possible to rig a more standard keyboard and
mouse to work with this computer?
(2) the machine also lacks a monitor. once again, is it possible to rig
a conventional monitor to work with this computer?
(3) are there any other deal-killers i should look for?
thanks,
sashank
From: Christopher R. Barry
Subject: Re: info needed on symbolics xl400
Date:
Message-ID: <87d7zxx9zq.fsf@2xtreme.net>
······@ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu (Sashank Varma) writes:
> i potentially have an opportunity to buy a symbolics xl400.
These use the 5MHz Ivory processor. They are said to be rougly 50%
faster than the 4MHz 36xx machines.
> after hearing the old-timers on this group wax nostalgic about these
> machines for years, i'm seriously considering opening my checkbook
> for this opportunity. however, there are three questions for which
> i need answers before I take the plunge:
>
> (1) the machine lacks both a keyboard and mouse. i assume these pieces
> were custom. is it possible to rig a more standard keyboard and
> mouse to work with this computer?
No. IIRC you can get standard SCSI disk drives to work if you can
format them to have 1280 bytes/sector, and I believe it is also
possible to use a Symbolics with a non-Symbolics
mouse/keyboard/monitor by connecting a remote PC to a Symbolics
running X.
> (3) are there any other deal-killers i should look for?
Not really a deal-killer, but the disk will probably be a 380MB or
760MB ESDI unit. If the former, see if it has the Genera documentation
loaded on it. If it doesn't, you'll want to find someone that has an
external disk to sell with the docs loaded on it, or you'll want to
get a Genera CD and serve docs off of that, but they are really
expensive, and finding someone to loan you one will probably be
difficult.
Christopher [who has been talking to a lot of people lately and may
have his own in the next few weeks if things work out]
Hello:
I would like to obtain something of a "programmer's reference manual" for
the instruction set used on the symbolics lisp machines. What are the
relevant documents and where would I go to obtain them?
Thanks,
Mayer Goldberg
······@cs.bgu.ac.il
In article <··········@news2.new-york.net>,
Mayer Goldberg <······@cs.bgu.ac.il> wrote:
>I would like to obtain something of a "programmer's reference manual" for
>the instruction set used on the symbolics lisp machines. What are the
>relevant documents and where would I go to obtain them?
I don't think they ever published anything like this. There was presumably
internal documentation, but it was probably proprietary.
--
Barry Margolin, ······@bbnplanet.com
GTE Internetworking, Powered by BBN, Burlington, MA
*** DON'T SEND TECHNICAL QUESTIONS DIRECTLY TO ME, post them to newsgroups.
Please DON'T copy followups to me -- I'll assume it wasn't posted to the group.
Barry Margolin wrote:
>
> In article <··········@news2.new-york.net>,
> Mayer Goldberg <······@cs.bgu.ac.il> wrote:
> >I would like to obtain something of a "programmer's reference manual" for
> >the instruction set used on the symbolics lisp machines. What are the
> >relevant documents and where would I go to obtain them?
>
> I don't think they ever published anything like this. There was presumably
> internal documentation, but it was probably proprietary.
I have a piece of documentation that I found; I think it is printed out
of the Release 6 manual set, which is How to Read LispM Assembly
Language, which has some nice pointers, but is unfortunately way too
short (only 4-5 pages or so).
Fortunately, a comprehensive document is available -- The entire
microcode for the machine, along with the microcode compiler, FEP
program, PAL sources, and a fair amount of explanatory documentation, is
available in US Patent 4887235
(http://www.patents.ibm.com/details?pn=US04887235__&language=en).
Some additional material is in 4922414 (mostly legal fluff).
Unfortunately, the document seems to have some parts missing, like the
detailed block diagrams (though, the overall block diagrams are
printed), and certain parts of the explanatory documentation (I guess
they didn't want to give away ALL their secrets). Anyways, it is an
exceptionally valuable resource.
Happy hacking!
In article <··············@fred.muc.de>, Andi Kleen <·····@muc.de> wrote:
>Daniel Finster <··@nanofab.utdallas.edu> writes:
>>
>> Fortunately, a comprehensive document is available -- The entire
>> microcode for the machine, along with the microcode compiler, FEP
>> program, PAL sources, and a fair amount of explanatory documentation, is
>> available in US Patent 4887235
>> (http://www.patents.ibm.com/details?pn=US04887235__&language=en).
>
>Did I misread claim 1c, or did they really patent GC by mark-and-sweep ?
I think the patent is actually on Symbolics's hardware-assisted ephemeral
GC, which is based on copying GC, not mark-sweep.
The web page only has the claims, not the specification, but it doesn't
seem likely that this patent would describe the machine's entire
instruction set, since it is so specific to the garbage collection
mechanism. It would probably have details about the memory and microcode
architecture that supports the way it keeps track of pointer assignments.
--
Barry Margolin, ······@bbnplanet.com
GTE Internetworking, Powered by BBN, Burlington, MA
*** DON'T SEND TECHNICAL QUESTIONS DIRECTLY TO ME, post them to newsgroups.
Please DON'T copy followups to me -- I'll assume it wasn't posted to the group.
* Daniel Finster wrote:
> Fortunately, a comprehensive document is available -- The entire
> microcode for the machine, along with the microcode compiler, FEP
> program, PAL sources, and a fair amount of explanatory documentation, is
> available in US Patent 4887235
> (http://www.patents.ibm.com/details?pn=US04887235__&language=en).
> Some additional material is in 4922414 (mostly legal fluff).
> Unfortunately, the document seems to have some parts missing, like the
> detailed block diagrams (though, the overall block diagrams are
> printed), and certain parts of the explanatory documentation (I guess
> they didn't want to give away ALL their secrets). Anyways, it is an
> exceptionally valuable resource.
Remember that there were at least two different Symbolics macro
architectures -- 36xx and ivory -- (not including a commercialised
CADR which I think they made for a while early on). In the 36xx alone
I think that L machines and G machines have significantly different
microarchitectures, although the same macro instruction set so that
might be 3 different machines really.
--tim
In article <···············@lostwithiel.tfeb.org>,
Tim Bradshaw <···@tfeb.org> wrote:
>Remember that there were at least two different Symbolics macro
>architectures -- 36xx and ivory -- (not including a commercialised
>CADR which I think they made for a while early on). In the 36xx alone
>I think that L machines and G machines have significantly different
>microarchitectures, although the same macro instruction set so that
>might be 3 different machines really.
Heck, just the *L* machines had a handful of variations, depending on
which rev of the IO board you had (network and disk were handled in
microcode), and whether you had a "Temporary" memory controller (aka MC)
or a full-blown Instruction Fetch Unit (IFU, which only shipped in the
3645 and 3675).
The G machines (3620/30/50) were a much cleaner implementation of the
36xx architecture, and only slightly less powerful than a 3675. While
there were several different versions of the microcode for the
G-machines (mostly for marketing reasons; I don't think they varied
much), the internal architecture was consistent among them.
I seem to recall that internally, there were at least 10 or 12
variations of the 36xx microcode for each release!
-- Chuck, former Symbolics factory diagnostic programmer
--
Chuck Fry -- Jack of all trades, master of none
······@chucko.com (text only please) ········@home.com (MIME enabled)
Lisp bigot, mountain biker, car nut, sometime guitarist and photographer
The addresses above are real. All spammers will be reported to their ISPs.
In article <·················@nanofab.utdallas.edu>, Daniel Finster
<··@nanofab.utdallas.edu> wrote:
>http://www.patents.ibm.com/details?pn=US04887235__&language=en
Damn. OptiPat are really a pain in the butt to register if you live
outside US. And it's far too big for a download. Anybody knows another
site where to get printed US patents that is a bit more friendly for
foreign customers?
bye, Georg
--
http://www.westfalen.de/hugo/
······@ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu (Sashank Varma) writes:
>i potentially have an opportunity to buy a symbolics xl400. after hearing
>the old-timers on this group wax nostalgic about these machines for years,
>i'm seriously considering opening my checkbook for this opportunity.
>however, there are three questions for which i need answers before I take
>the plunge:
>(1) the machine lacks both a keyboard and mouse. i assume these pieces
> were custom. is it possible to rig a more standard keyboard and
> mouse to work with this computer?
>(2) the machine also lacks a monitor. once again, is it possible to rig
> a conventional monitor to work with this computer?
>(3) are there any other deal-killers i should look for?
The machines need custom keyboard, mouse and monitors. However, these
are compatible with the older 36xx models (except that *very* old ones
used a bigger console connector). The big old machines were often
dumped, but keyboards and monitors kept.
Also, make sure you have an OS medium and a device to boot from.
Martin
--
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
Martin Cracauer <········@bik-gmbh.de> http://www.bik-gmbh.de/~cracauer/
"Where do you want to do today?" Hard to tell running your calendar
program on a junk operating system, eh?
* Sashank Varma wrote:
> (1) the machine lacks both a keyboard and mouse. i assume these pieces
> were custom. is it possible to rig a more standard keyboard and
> mouse to work with this computer?
I'd be reasonably surprised. There is a fair amount of logic that
sits in the back of the monitor which deals with the keyboard and
mouse. The keyboard and mouse themselves talk some reasonably obvious
protocol to the monitor (at least there's practically no electronics
in the keyboard, and the mouse I think is just a standard logitech one,
but I have no idea at all what the whole assembly talks to the
machine.
I wouldn't be very interested in it unless you know where you can get
a screen & keyboard from (I'm sure they're available but they may not
be cheap).
--tim
In article <·······················@129.59.212.29>,
······@ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu (Sashank Varma) wrote:
> (1) the machine lacks both a keyboard and mouse. i assume these pieces
> were custom. is it possible to rig a more standard keyboard and
> mouse to work with this computer?
>
> (2) the machine also lacks a monitor. once again, is it possible to rig
> a conventional monitor to work with this computer?
i've been informed via private email that the mouse is of logitech heritage,
but the keyboard and monitor are quite a bit more specialized. in particular,
the monitor apparently has "significant amounts of active electronics inside",
and the keyboard plugs into the monitor (as does the mouse).
so perhaps i should adjust my questions:
(3) where can i get a symbolics monitor?
(4) where can i get a symbolics keyboard, and hopefully a symbolics mouse?
sashank
Sashank Varma <······@ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu> wrote:
> In article <·······················@129.59.212.29>,
> ······@ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu (Sashank Varma) wrote:
>
> > (1) the machine lacks both a keyboard and mouse. i assume these pieces
> > were custom. is it possible to rig a more standard keyboard and
> > mouse to work with this computer?
> >
> > (2) the machine also lacks a monitor. once again, is it possible to rig
> > a conventional monitor to work with this computer?
>
> i've been informed via private email that the mouse is of logitech heritage,
> but the keyboard and monitor are quite a bit more specialized. in particular,
> the monitor apparently has "significant amounts of active electronics inside",
> and the keyboard plugs into the monitor (as does the mouse).
>
> so perhaps i should adjust my questions:
>
> (3) where can i get a symbolics monitor?
>
> (4) where can i get a symbolics keyboard, and hopefully a symbolics mouse?
>
> sashank
I have mice, kbds, monitors, machines and other Symbolics products
available. See:
http://www.abstractscience.freeserve.co.uk/symbolics/welcome.html
-Peter Paine
·@abstractscience.freeserve.co.uk