From: Paolo Amoroso
Subject: Is ``Lisp'' such a bad word?
Date: 
Message-ID: <3662f8f3.39636@news.mclink.it>
I've just got my copy of the December 1998 issue of Dr. Dobb's Journal. On
page 99 there is the ad for Franz Allegro CL 5.0. I saw other ads by Franz,
but this time I have examined it more carefully: the ad contains the right
buzzwords, but the words "Lisp" or "CLOS" are missing.

Do ads by other Lisp vendors mention the language? Is "Lisp" such a bad
word? Is its reputation so compromised? I know that Lisp can do great
things even without mass acceptance or public recognition, and I'm
perfectly happy with it myself. I ask that questions because I'm interested
in learning something more about its recent history (I read "Patterns of
Software" and part of what's available online, including "The Evolution of
Lisp").


Paolo
-- 
Paolo Amoroso <·······@mclink.it>

From: Erik Naggum
Subject: Re: Is ``Lisp'' such a bad word?
Date: 
Message-ID: <3121448755515195@naggum.no>
* ·······@mclink.it (Paolo Amoroso)
| Do ads by other Lisp vendors mention the language?  Is "Lisp" such a bad
| word?  Is its reputation so compromised?  I know that Lisp can do great
| things even without mass acceptance or public recognition, and I'm
| perfectly happy with it myself.  I ask that questions because I'm
| interested in learning something more about its recent history (I read
| "Patterns of Software" and part of what's available online, including
| "The Evolution of Lisp").

  sometimes, people need to be made aware of what they fear actually is
  before you can tell them not to fear.  in my view, formed after talking
  to lots and lots of people about Lisp, people _fear_ lisp, as much as
  they _fear_ Unix.  the fear is not of the language or operating system,
  but of being inferior, etc.  by telling people "you, too, can use Common
  Lisp!" through showing them, they might change their minds.  I'm only
  worried about people who don't know what they're doing doing it in Lisp,
  as that will instill "fear or losing control" in the minds of managers
  who believe they know how to control the damage C++ does.

  a friend sent me the following URL the other day.  I found the article
  fascinating.

<URL:http://www.performancecomputing.com/features/9809of1.shtml>

#:Erik
-- 
  The Microsoft Dating Program -- where do you want to crash tonight?
From: David Steuber "The Interloper
Subject: Re: Is ``Lisp'' such a bad word?
Date: 
Message-ID: <3665ac17.94306084@news.newsguy.com>
On 30 Nov 1998 21:05:55 +0000, Erik Naggum <····@naggum.no> claimed or
asked:

%   a friend sent me the following URL the other day.  I found the article
%   fascinating.
% 
% <URL:http://www.performancecomputing.com/features/9809of1.shtml>

Deja Vu'!

I've read this before.  It is indeed an interesting point of view.  I
have similar feelings about programming in general.  The skills a
writer possesses to convey ideas to other people in a concise and
readable fashion are very similar to the skills needed by a programmer
expressing an algorithm in some programming language.

While I am no great poet, Lisp looks more poetic than C++ or Java.  It
seems more expressive and fluid.  Perl has similar qualities, but it
is ugly.

--
David Steuber (ver 1.31.3a)
http://www.david-steuber.com
To reply by e-mail, replace trashcan with david.

May the source be with you...
From: Sunil Mishra
Subject: Re: Is ``Lisp'' such a bad word?
Date: 
Message-ID: <efyyaorhz4i.fsf@spanker.cc.gatech.edu>
Richard Gabriel also had a whole lot to say on this matter in Patterns of
Software, comparing programming practices to writing poetry etc.

Sunil

········@david-steuber.com (David Steuber "The Interloper") writes:

> On 30 Nov 1998 21:05:55 +0000, Erik Naggum <····@naggum.no> claimed or
> asked:
> 
> %   a friend sent me the following URL the other day.  I found the article
> %   fascinating.
> % 
> % <URL:http://www.performancecomputing.com/features/9809of1.shtml>
> 
> Deja Vu'!
> 
> I've read this before.  It is indeed an interesting point of view.  I
> have similar feelings about programming in general.  The skills a
> writer possesses to convey ideas to other people in a concise and
> readable fashion are very similar to the skills needed by a programmer
> expressing an algorithm in some programming language.
> 
> While I am no great poet, Lisp looks more poetic than C++ or Java.  It
> seems more expressive and fluid.  Perl has similar qualities, but it
> is ugly.
> 
> --
> David Steuber (ver 1.31.3a)
> http://www.david-steuber.com
> To reply by e-mail, replace trashcan with david.
> 
> May the source be with you...
From: Gareth McCaughan
Subject: Re: Is ``Lisp'' such a bad word?
Date: 
Message-ID: <86btlolzes.fsf@g.pet.cam.ac.uk>
Paolo Amoroso wrote:

> I've just got my copy of the December 1998 issue of Dr. Dobb's Journal. On
> page 99 there is the ad for Franz Allegro CL 5.0. I saw other ads by Franz,
> but this time I have examined it more carefully: the ad contains the right
> buzzwords, but the words "Lisp" or "CLOS" are missing.

How do you advertise a product without mentioning its name?
Did they call it "Allegro CL", like that? Or just "Allegro"?

-- 
Gareth McCaughan       Dept. of Pure Mathematics & Mathematical Statistics,
·····@dpmms.cam.ac.uk  Cambridge University, England.
From: Paolo Amoroso
Subject: Re: Is ``Lisp'' such a bad word?
Date: 
Message-ID: <36657433.43046@news.mclink.it>
On 01 Dec 1998 14:17:31 +0000, Gareth McCaughan <·····@dpmms.cam.ac.uk>
wrote:

> How do you advertise a product without mentioning its name?
> Did they call it "Allegro CL", like that? Or just "Allegro"?

The product is called "Allegro CL, Version 5.0" in the ad. Maybe CL stands
for Cool Language :)


Paolo
-- 
Paolo Amoroso <·······@mclink.it>
From: Reini Urban
Subject: Re: Is ``Lisp'' such a bad word?
Date: 
Message-ID: <366525a4.3035044@judy>
·······@mclink.it (Paolo Amoroso) wrote:
>Is "Lisp" such a bad word?
>Paolo Amoroso <·······@mclink.it>

not in europe but in the states obviously.

--                                         
Reini
From: rusty craine
Subject: Re: Is ``Lisp'' such a bad word?
Date: 
Message-ID: <744m16$kso$1@excalibur.flash.net>
Reini Urban wrote in message <················@judy>...
>·······@mclink.it (Paolo Amoroso) wrote:
>>Is "Lisp" such a bad word?
>>Paolo Amoroso <·······@mclink.it>
>
>not in europe but in the states obviously.
>

Not sure it is a bad word, maybe unknow or forgotten.  A few weeks ago we
had some consultants in (the kind that were suits and cost alot) to tell our
administration what we had been telling them for months (it just sounds
better it it costs alot).  One of the "suits" was looking over a monitoring
system we have in place in muLisp.  The systems monitors payroll processing
on a the main frame..watching each check point to make sure it finishes
clean, when the process on the main frame is done muLisp file transfers the
dataset to it's hard drive, formats the checks to be printed, formats the
bank auto-transfer records, phones the bank and transfers the data to the
bank.  These consultants were financial types verifing the security of all
our IS processes dealing with the companies money.  He ask  few question
about the process just to let me know he knew what he was talking about.
When he ask what we had written the system in and I told him lisp and
assembler, a blank look flashed across his face for a second.  He got his
composure back and changed the subject quickly.  Later one of our group over
heard him asking his partner if lisp was a new language....????

[the system is written in muLisp and assembler, using an old IRMA TSR to
make the calls to the HALLAPI routines for mainframe access.  In the next
few months were are installing a hotshot system monitor from DEC that cost
an arm and a leg.  I hope the dang thing works as good as the muLisp
system.....people get really cranky when payroll doesn't run.]

Rusty

>--
>Reini