If you're a college student, which vendor is offering the most
attractive licensing cost for single-user, non-commercial use on Linux?
The free-CLIM mailing list seems pretty dead, as noone is doing
anything, so I guess I'll have to bite the bullet if it isn't more than
I can afford to chew right now.
It's too bad that the cost of all these cool tools keeps them out of the
hands of so many. I remember wanting to check out OpenSTEP Developer for
Intel and them wanting $300 for a student and something like $3000-$5000
if you weren't. Is this really the most profitable price point? Kinda
seems like a catch-22.
So what am I looking just to play with CLIM a little on my Linux box?
Thanks,
Christopher
In article <················@2xtreme.net>, Christopher Barry
<······@2xtreme.net> wrote:
> If you're a college student, which vendor is offering the most
> attractive licensing cost for single-user, non-commercial use on Linux?
Only Franz offers CLIM for Linux, AFAIK. Costs money, though.
--
http://www.lavielle.com/~joswig
Christopher Barry <······@2xtreme.net> writes:
>
> So what am I looking just to play with CLIM a little on my Linux box?
>
Well, if you decide CLIM's too expensive, and if you're looking for a
lisp GUI toolkit, why not try garnet? It's free (in the public
domain, not GNU or even BSD), well documented and quite effective.
It has some advanced concepts like a lightweight prototype-instance
object system with constraints and a nice division between graphics
and user input that removes the need to do event handling and
minimizes the need for callbacks.
It works under X and on the Mac (which implies that it's sufficiently
general to be ported to MS-Windows if anyone wanted to). I've
personally gotten it working under linux-ACL and CMUCL and it has
options for CLISP and others.
It's suffering a bit from neglect but it's quite usable and even fun.
I've made some fixes and gotten a few from others and I'm hoping it'll
become more widely used.
--
Fred Gilham gilham @ csl . sri . com
King Christ, this world is all aleak, / And life preservers there are none,
And waves that only He may walk / Who dared to call Himself a man.
-- e. e. cummings, from Jehovah Buried, Satan Dead
On 21 Nov 1998 11:34:41 -0800, Fred Gilham
<······@snapdragon.csl.sri.com> claimed or asked:
[about GARNET]
% It's suffering a bit from neglect but it's quite usable and even fun.
% I've made some fixes and gotten a few from others and I'm hoping it'll
% become more widely used.
I installed GARNET with my CMUCL setup on a Linux box. Two now. I
haven't played much with it because, when I am not distracted by other
issues, I am still learning the fundamentals of Lisp.
I like the Motif widgets and the gestures look promising. I'm not a
fan of the default widgets.
Anyway, GARNET is my chosen GUI toolkit (along with CLX) unless
something better comes along. The public domain aspect of CMUCL and
GARNET is particularly appealing. Far more freedom than GPL, LGPL, et
al.
I'm on the GARNET mailing list, but I don't seem to see a lot of
traffic. There was a blip some weeks back.
--
David Steuber (ver 1.31.3a)
http://www.david-steuber.com
To reply by e-mail, replace trashcan with david.
May the source be with you...
From: Lieven Marchand
Subject: Re: Cheapest way to get hands on CLIM.
Date:
Message-ID: <73cabq$d7c$1@xenon.inbe.net>
Christopher Barry <······@2xtreme.net> writes:
> If you're a college student, which vendor is offering the most
> attractive licensing cost for single-user, non-commercial use on Linux?
> The free-CLIM mailing list seems pretty dead, as noone is doing
> anything, so I guess I'll have to bite the bullet if it isn't more than
> I can afford to chew right now.
>
> It's too bad that the cost of all these cool tools keeps them out of the
> hands of so many. I remember wanting to check out OpenSTEP Developer for
> Intel and them wanting $300 for a student and something like $3000-$5000
> if you weren't. Is this really the most profitable price point? Kinda
> seems like a catch-22.
>
> So what am I looking just to play with CLIM a little on my Linux box?
I asked Allegro that question some time ago and unfortunately they don't
have that kind of license. Personally I would gladly have paid something
in the order of $400 to $500 dollar for such a beast but the only option
is a commercial license for ACL and then a source license for CLIM. CLIM
doesn't seem to come in a binary form which is very nice for those who
can afford it but the package comes to $8000 IIRC. Although I'm not a
student anymore it's a bit steep for a hobby.
WRT freeclim: I joined the list and I have studied the spec but it's a
very large and complex beast to write. I've started for fun on a small
bit but I haven't got very far yet.
BTW is there a later version of the spec than the one referred to on the
www.cons.org CLIM pages? This version still contains a number of unresolved
questions.
--
Lieven Marchand <···@bewoner.dma.be>
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Few people have a talent for constructive laziness. -- Lazarus Long
In article <············@xenon.inbe.net>,
Lieven Marchand <···@bewoner.dma.be> writes:
> Christopher Barry <······@2xtreme.net> writes:
>
>> If you're a college student, which vendor is offering the most
>> attractive licensing cost for single-user, non-commercial use on Linux?
>> The free-CLIM mailing list seems pretty dead, as noone is doing
>> anything, so I guess I'll have to bite the bullet if it isn't more than
>> I can afford to chew right now.
>>
>> It's too bad that the cost of all these cool tools keeps them out of the
>> hands of so many. I remember wanting to check out OpenSTEP Developer for
>> Intel and them wanting $300 for a student and something like $3000-$5000
>> if you weren't. Is this really the most profitable price point? Kinda
>> seems like a catch-22.
>>
>> So what am I looking just to play with CLIM a little on my Linux box?
>
> I asked Allegro that question some time ago and unfortunately they don't
> have that kind of license. Personally I would gladly have paid something
> in the order of $400 to $500 dollar for such a beast but the only option
> is a commercial license for ACL and then a source license for CLIM. CLIM
> doesn't seem to come in a binary form which is very nice for those who
> can afford it but the package comes to $8000 IIRC. Although I'm not a
> student anymore it's a bit steep for a hobby.
When I asked Franz about CLIM for Linux, they quoted me something like
$4200. $3000 for ACL and another $1200 for CLIM. Way too much for my playing
around with!
> WRT freeclim: I joined the list and I have studied the spec but it's a
> very large and complex beast to write. I've started for fun on a small
> bit but I haven't got very far yet.
It is huge and complicated. There's also an unstated assumption that you
were privy to the spec discussions. (Some parts just don't make sense unless
you already know what they meant. (The cursor protocol has me scratching my
head these days!) Not to sound ungratefull for it though!)
Unfortunately, all of CLIM is very intertwined. You really have to implement
it in the order it's presented in the spec. Unfortunately, that means you have
to wait until Chapter 28 until you can get a window up.
> BTW is there a later version of the spec than the one referred to on the
> www.cons.org CLIM pages? This version still contains a number of unresolved
> questions.
>
As far as I know, no, there isn't. I've always just asked Scott McKay
whenever I had a question about the spec. He's been very helpfull! I've been
ignoring most of the questions. I figure they can wait until I have version
0.000001 released.
Mike McDonald
·······@mikemac.com
In article <············@spitting-spider.aracnet.com>, ·······@mikemac.com
wrote:
> When I asked Franz about CLIM for Linux, they quoted me something like
> $4200. $3000 for ACL and another $1200 for CLIM. Way too much for my playing
> around with!
For that amount you can get a MCL, CLIM *and* a Mac.
> Unfortunately, all of CLIM is very intertwined. You really have to implement
> it in the order it's presented in the spec. Unfortunately, that means you have
> to wait until Chapter 28 until you can get a window up.
;-)
--
http://www.lavielle.com/~joswig
In article <·······················@194.163.195.67>,
······@lavielle.com (Rainer Joswig) writes:
> In article <············@spitting-spider.aracnet.com>, ·······@mikemac.com
> wrote:
>
>> When I asked Franz about CLIM for Linux, they quoted me something like
>> $4200. $3000 for ACL and another $1200 for CLIM. Way too much for my playing
>> around with!
>
> For that amount you can get a MCL, CLIM *and* a Mac.
Yup. A royal pisser, isn't it! The Mac approach would be interesting if it
was for the Mac portion! :-)
Mike McDonald
·······@mikemac.com
In article <············@spitting-spider.aracnet.com>, ·······@mikemac.com
wrote:
> > For that amount you can get a MCL, CLIM *and* a Mac.
>
> Yup. A royal pisser, isn't it! The Mac approach would be interesting if it
> was for the Mac portion! :-)
Hmm, I was under the impression that a G3 Powerbook with MCL
is kind of a standard platform for Lisp wizards. ;-)
Added bonus: you wouldn't need to use "MS Windows" or "Unix". ;-)
--
http://www.lavielle.com/~joswig
In article <··············@rainbow.studorg.tuwien.ac.at>,
Clemens Heitzinger <········@ag.or.at> wrote:
>······@lavielle.com (Rainer Joswig) writes:
>
>> In article <············@spitting-spider.aracnet.com>, ·······@mikemac.=
>com
>> wrote:
>> =
>
>> > > For that amount you can get a MCL, CLIM *and* a Mac.
>> > =
>
>> Hmm, I was under the impression that a G3 Powerbook with MCL
>> is kind of a standard platform for Lisp wizards. ;-)
>
>Yes, but... These G3 Powerbooks aren't exactly cheap. And what's
>more important: In the US they are _much_ cheaper than in Germany,
>and in Germany they are quite a bit cheaper than in Austria. :-(
>
How much are the low-end G3s? I bought my desktop machine early this
summer for $1700, and it's dropped a lot since. (It was a bit jarring
at first: I was used to starting a certain test and leisurely thinking
while waiting for the answer to come back. Doesn't work like that any
more.)
>In order not to be completely off-topic, does MCL come with CLIM, or
>do I have to buy a separate license? (CLIM isn't mentioned on
>http:/www.lavielle.de/Digitool/Preise.html and on Digitool's order web
>page.)
>
The last version of MCL came with a version of CLIM that they claimed
was beta (I'd rather get something into better shape than that before
calling it beta). Eventually it will cost a few hundred dollars
extra. The pricing for non-academic use is probably pretty close
to Harlequin's LWW.
--
David H. Thornley | These opinions are mine. I
·····@thornley.net | do give them freely to those
http://www.thornley.net/~thornley/david/ | who run too slowly. O-
In article <··············@rainbow.studorg.tuwien.ac.at>,
········@ag.or.at wrote:
> > >> Hmm, I was under the impression that a G3 Powerbook with MCL
> > >> is kind of a standard platform for Lisp wizards. ;-)
>
> Is this a necessary or sufficient condition (or neither)? ;-)
Just an observation. ;-)
> So, if owning a PowerBook is a necessary condition for being a Lisp
> wizard, I don't think I will qualify anytime soon. ;-)
Don't be so negative.
> And you certainly can't get the low end desktop machine for 1700 USD
> (or 20400 ATS) around here; add +40%. And since you say it has
> dropped a lot since, we are probably back to +60%.
Don't you qualify for student prices? Register as a developer...
--
http://www.lavielle.com/~joswig
In article <··············@rainbow.studorg.tuwien.ac.at>,
········@ag.or.at wrote:
> Yes, but... These G3 Powerbooks aren't exactly cheap. And what's
> more important: In the US they are _much_ cheaper than in Germany,
> and in Germany they are quite a bit cheaper than in Austria. :-(
The 233 Mhz G3 Powerbook is o.k. (not exactly cheap, but
very competitive for its features). I bought my first Mac
(a MacSE) for nearly the same price. Sigh.
> Hm, then there are Apple's upcoming consumer notebooks...
With two possible routes: a) a cheap Powerbook and b) a
cheap subnotebook (imagine having a fully graphics capable Lisp
workstation in a really small package with lots of memory).
> In order not to be completely off-topic, does MCL come with CLIM, or
> do I have to buy a separate license? (CLIM isn't mentioned on
> http:/www.lavielle.de/Digitool/Preise.html and on Digitool's order web
> page.)
I'm sure Digitool will be selling CLIM as a separate product.
Greetings,
Rainer Joswig
--
http://www.lavielle.com/~joswig
In article <·······················@194.163.195.67> , ······@lavielle.com
(Rainer Joswig) wrote:
>In article <············@spitting-spider.aracnet.com>, ·······@mikemac.com
>wrote:
>
>> > For that amount you can get a MCL, CLIM *and* a Mac.
>>
>> Yup. A royal pisser, isn't it! The Mac approach would be interesting if it
>> was for the Mac portion! :-)
>
>Hmm, I was under the impression that a G3 Powerbook with MCL
>is kind of a standard platform for Lisp wizards. ;-)
>
Actually, the iMac works out way better $-wise, so long as you don't need
the portability. Figure just under $2,000 for an iMac with extra memory and
an MCL subscription. If you shop around (refurbs, mail-order), and get a
non-subscription copy of MCL, you could move that price as low as
$1,500-$1,600.
>Added bonus: you wouldn't need to use "MS Windows" or "Unix". ;-)
Awww, but Unix gives you _so_ many ways to shoot yourself in the foot...
it's versatile <g>.
And Windows is even better... it shoots your foot without any help!
--
David B. Lamkins <http://www.teleport.com/~dlamkins/>
Recently undead Isabelle to the archangel Gabriel in "The Prophecy II":
"So, you're keeping me alive because you don't know DOS?"