From: Dobes Vandermeer
Subject: Integrating a LISP implementation.
Date: 
Message-ID: <367F6F52.A1981D5D@mindless.com>
I hope write a Game application that sports a LISP conding interface for
AI and custom behaviors.  Therefore, I need a LISP implementation that I
can integrate with my own (C) source code that will work for my
purposes.  I am developing under Win32 and maybe Linux, and I intend to
release this commercially... Unfortunately, of all of the LISP
environments I have found, the ones that came with source would not
compile (under Win32) or were incomplete, except CMUCL, which does not
support x86 and is too big to manage.

So, seeing the integration of another LISP environment to be too
daunting, I began writing my own LISp interpeter.  This is well on its
way, but my hunger for features has overhelmed me, and I want to include
an incremental compiler, and all the ANSI CL functions, etc... I dont
want to spend the next year developing, however, and I am not
knowledgable enough towrite my own incremental compiler.

Therefore, I would appreciate pointers to any of the following:

1.  A LISP environment compilable to a shared library under x86

2.  A LISP environment that compiles in a Win32 environment and comes
with full (C) source

3.  A book/web page that tells me how to implement some or all the
features of a LISP environment (esp. incremental compiling)

4.  Anything else that seems helpful.

Thank you!

From: Pierre Mai
Subject: Re: Integrating a LISP implementation.
Date: 
Message-ID: <87vhj4v1bd.fsf@orion.dent.isdn.cs.tu-berlin.de>
Dobes Vandermeer <·····@mindless.com> writes:

> compile (under Win32) or were incomplete, except CMUCL, which does not
> support x86 and is too big to manage.

CMUCL _does_ in fact support x86 (on FreeBSD and Linux at the least),
it currently  doesn't support Win32[1].  Still not what you want, and
still too big for you needs maybe, but just so people having x86-Boxes 
don't turn to other solutions, when CMUCL is perfectly feasable... ;)

> 1.  A LISP environment compilable to a shared library under x86
> 
> 2.  A LISP environment that compiles in a Win32 environment and comes
> with full (C) source

Since you're developing a commercial product, I'd suggest you check
out Eclipse, a complete CL implementation for x86 Linux and Win32 (and 
some other plattforms), that compiles to ANSI C, and supports tight
integration to ANSI-C code.  Although AFAIK currently it's runtime
libraries are currently statically-linked, IIRC it's main developer
has stated here previously that he sees no problems in turning them
into DLLs (although the utility of this for a single product seems
questionable to me)...

Pricing is IMHO very fair...

Look at http://www.elwood.com/eclipse/

Regs, Pierre.

Footnotes: 
[1]  Although some people on cmucl-imp are contemplating porting CMUCL 
to Win32...

-- 
Pierre Mai <····@acm.org>               http://home.pages.de/~trillian/
  "One smaller motivation which, in part, stems from altruism is Microsoft-
   bashing." [Microsoft memo, see http://www.opensource.org/halloween1.html]
From: Dobes Vandermeer
Subject: Re: Integrating a LISP implementation.
Date: 
Message-ID: <368046C4.1624CCC6@mindless.com>
Pierre Mai wrote:
> 
> Look at http://www.elwood.com/eclipse/

Thank you, it looks like ECliPSe does exactly what I want, now all I
have to do is figure out a happy licensng scheme.

Also, I am investiagting the Abuse sources, and I kept all the links to
other free implenentations..

Thanks all who replied!

CU
Dobes
From: Reini Urban
Subject: Re: Integrating a LISP implementation.
Date: 
Message-ID: <367f90c6.1570808@judy>
http://www.crack.com/games/abuse/
seems to be the best for you to have a look at.

this pd lisp is not documented but should be easy to guess out. 
and there come the full game sources!

there are tons of other free lisp/scheme which work under win32, and
some of the others are quite cheap .
however, not all compile under msvc yet. most of them with cygwin.

ecolisp (gpl) ftp://ftp.di.unipi.it/pub/ai/ecl/
clisp (free)  http://sayre.sysc.pdx.edu:8001/clisp/
slisp (??)    http://redbull.dcs.fmph.uniba.sk/~vasko/slisp

more gpl'ed (or equal) scheme versions like: guile, siod, xlisp
see www.schemers.org

Dobes Vandermeer <·····@mindless.com> wrote:
>I hope write a Game application that sports a LISP conding interface for
>AI and custom behaviors.  Therefore, I need a LISP implementation that I
>can integrate with my own (C) source code that will work for my
>purposes.  I am developing under Win32 and maybe Linux, and I intend to
>release this commercially... Unfortunately, of all of the LISP
>environments I have found, the ones that came with source would not
>compile (under Win32) or were incomplete, except CMUCL, which does not
>support x86 and is too big to manage.
>
>So, seeing the integration of another LISP environment to be too
>daunting, I began writing my own LISp interpeter.  This is well on its
>way, but my hunger for features has overhelmed me, and I want to include
>an incremental compiler, and all the ANSI CL functions, etc... I dont
>want to spend the next year developing, however, and I am not
>knowledgable enough towrite my own incremental compiler.
>
>Therefore, I would appreciate pointers to any of the following:
>
>1.  A LISP environment compilable to a shared library under x86
>
>2.  A LISP environment that compiles in a Win32 environment and comes
>with full (C) source
>
>3.  A book/web page that tells me how to implement some or all the
>features of a LISP environment (esp. incremental compiling)
>
>4.  Anything else that seems helpful.

---
Reini Urban
http://xarch.tu-graz.ac.at/autocad/news/faq/autolisp.html
From: Guilhem de WAILLY
Subject: Re: Integrating a LISP implementation.
Date: 
Message-ID: <367FA87E.A9322796@linux-kheops.com>
Dobes Vandermeer wrote:

> I hope write a Game application that sports a LISP conding interface for
> AI and custom behaviors.  Therefore, I need a LISP implementation that I
> can integrate with my own (C) source code that will work for my
> purposes.  I am developing under Win32 and maybe Linux, and I intend to
> release this commercially... Unfortunately, of all of the LISP
> environments I have found, the ones that came with source would not
> compile (under Win32) or were incomplete, except CMUCL, which does not
> support x86 and is too big to manage.
>
> So, seeing the integration of another LISP environment to be too
> daunting, I began writing my own LISp interpeter.  This is well on its
> way, but my hunger for features has overhelmed me, and I want to include
> an incremental compiler, and all the ANSI CL functions, etc... I dont
> want to spend the next year developing, however, and I am not
> knowledgable enough towrite my own incremental compiler.
>
> Therefore, I would appreciate pointers to any of the following:
>
> 1.  A LISP environment compilable to a shared library under x86
>
> 2.  A LISP environment that compiles in a Win32 environment and comes
> with full (C) source
>
> 3.  A book/web page that tells me how to implement some or all the
> features of a LISP environment (esp. incremental compiling)
>
> 4.  Anything else that seems helpful.
>
> Thank you!

You should consider OpenScheme v 1.2 available at
http://www.linux-kheops.com/erian/osm

This is a Scheme programming environment that includes
a compiler (that produces ANSI C), a debugger and an
interpreter. It includes regular expressions, timers (preemptive),
unified operating system interface, console interface, an
efficient object oriented layer.

C can be integrated very easily either by writing C into Scheme
with the 'primitive' special form, or with dynamic linked libraries.
OpenScheme is itself written in Scheme that includes some C
code. A lot of examples are given (most of the plugins extensions).

It is available in Linux and Windows.

It includes a preliminary Graphical Library that is
going to be extended with a full Object Oriented set a widgets.

It can be freely evaluated at the given address. The commercial
version is not (and will remain) not expensive. You can obtain
one year of technical support with the commercial version.

Sincerely,

Guilhem de Wailly

--
-----------------------------------------------------------
Erian Concept                | Tel  : (33) 04 93 44 18 06
Guilhem de Wailly            | Mobil: (33) 06 82 18 39 63
155 bd de la Madeleine       | Fax  : (33) 04 93 14 36 75
06000 - Nice - FRANCE        | ··········@linux-kheops.com
http://www.linux-kheops.com/erian
-----------------------------------------------------------
From: Dwight Hughes
Subject: Re: Integrating a LISP implementation.
Date: 
Message-ID: <367FC946.89C1D5AC@ipa.net>
You might be interested in Corman Common Lisp. The primary limitations
relative to your list are: it's not available for Linux and it doesn't
compile to a shared library. This latter may be moot however since the
kernel of CCL is an in-process COM server. You get the full source to
the environment (CL) and the kernel (assm/C/C++). The IDE is the only
part you don't get source for. CCL is only $100 for commercial use.

http://www.corman.net/CormanLisp.html

The book to study as far as Lisp implementation goes is "Lisp in Small
Pieces" by Christian Queinnec, Cambridge Univ Pr, ISBN: 0521562473.

-- Dwight

Dobes Vandermeer wrote:

> Therefore, I would appreciate pointers to any of the following:
> 
> 1.  A LISP environment compilable to a shared library under x86
> 
> 2.  A LISP environment that compiles in a Win32 environment and comes
> with full (C) source
> 
> 3.  A book/web page that tells me how to implement some or all the
> features of a LISP environment (esp. incremental compiling)
> 
> 4.  Anything else that seems helpful.
> 
> Thank you!
From: Eliot & Linda
Subject: Re: Integrating a LISP implementation.
Date: 
Message-ID: <3680538F.2367@pacbell.net>
Dobes Vandermeer wrote:
> 
> I hope write a Game application that sports a LISP conding interface for
> AI and custom behaviors.  Therefore, I need a LISP implementation that I
> can integrate with my own (C) source code that will work for my
> purposes.  I am developing under Win32 and maybe Linux, and I intend to
> release this commercially... Unfortunately, of all of the LISP
> environments I have found, the ones that came with source would not
> compile (under Win32) or were incomplete, except CMUCL, which does not
> support x86 and is too big to manage.
> 
> So, seeing the integration of another LISP environment to be too
> daunting, I began writing my own LISp interpeter.  This is well on its
> way, but my hunger for features has overhelmed me, and I want to include
> an incremental compiler, and all the ANSI CL functions, etc... I dont
> want to spend the next year developing, however, and I am not
> knowledgable enough towrite my own incremental compiler.
> 
> Therefore, I would appreciate pointers to any of the following:
> 
> 1.  A LISP environment compilable to a shared library under x86
> 
> 2.  A LISP environment that compiles in a Win32 environment and comes
> with full (C) source
> 
> 3.  A book/web page that tells me how to implement some or all the
> features of a LISP environment (esp. incremental compiling)
> 
> 4.  Anything else that seems helpful.

Excuse the plug, but you might take a look at Smalltalk environments. 
They also provide incremental compilation, a very-high-level OO
language, rich libraries, garbage collection, etc.  Smalltalk provides
many of the features of LISP (except multi-methods and "complex" method
combination).  You'll find my company's VisualWorks also provides
instant binary compatibility across supported platforms, and a tool
suite for generating interfaces to C including an automatic interface
generator that parses C header files and emits Smalltalk.  VisualWorks
supports Win32, MacOS, several unix platforms and is likely to support
Intel linux early next year.
_______________,,,^..^,,,_______________
Eliot Miranda, ParcPlace Aspect, ObjectShare
From: William Paul Vrotney
Subject: Re: Integrating a LISP implementation.
Date: 
Message-ID: <vrotneyF4EBFA.3s4@netcom.com>
In article <·················@mindless.com> Dobes Vandermeer
<·····@mindless.com> writes:

> 
> I hope write a Game application that sports a LISP conding interface for
> AI and custom behaviors.  Therefore, I need a LISP implementation that I
> can integrate with my own (C) source code that will work for my
> purposes.  I am developing under Win32 and maybe Linux, and I intend to
> release this commercially... Unfortunately, of all of the LISP
> environments I have found, the ones that came with source would not
> compile (under Win32) or were incomplete, except CMUCL, which does not
> support x86 and is too big to manage.
> 

There were a lot of good suggestions for you here.  Here is another quite
different approach that has worked for me in the past: Develop your game in
Common Lisp exclusively, then when going to market, covert it by hand to C
using the Lpp package at

        http://www.interhack.net/projects/lpp

You would be able to easily produce the cond AI interface using the supplied
"read" function.

The principle behind this approach is that with many projects especially AI
projects most of the time is spent developing and prototyping, and it is
economically better (and more fun!)  to spend this time in Lisp.  You only
need to take to market a small percentage of the time and most of this time
is spent assuring hardened fast code.
-- 

William P. Vrotney - ·······@netcom.com