Hi everybody,
I'm 17 and greatly interrested in any domains of computer science. I tought
about learning one of the well known AI language, LISP or Prolog. I'm
posting it here cos comp.lang.prolog appear not to be frequented alot. I
know some C, C++. I'm learning Java and I programmed Visual Basic. I'm
also quite good at ASM (PC). I have some question concerning LISP. I'll be
happy with any answers.
1) Which is best, LISP or Prolog (I'll ask that question to comp.lang.prolog
either) ?
2) What are the main different features between LISP and Prolog ?
3) Does LISP worth learning for a computer science novice-intermediate ?
5) What is the best Common LISP or ANSI LISP compiler/interpreter is better
for a beginner ?
6) Where can I find a good LISP tutorial on Internet ?
Neumann
·······@icrdl.net
www.icrdl.net/claudeg
NB: My english is not perfect, so be comprehensive if I wrote phrases that
look strange for you.
"Fran�ois-Denis Gonthier" <·······@icrdl.net> writes:
> 3) Does LISP worth learning for a computer science novice-intermediate ?
Try to lay your hands on the book "Structure and Interpretation of Computer
Languages" by Abelson and Sussman; it's a book about programming, and it
uses a Lisp dialect called Scheme. It gives many great insights in
programming, and you learn Lisp (in the broad sense) as you go
along. Funnily enough, you also learn something about Prolog on the way!
>
> 5) What is the best Common LISP or ANSI LISP compiler/interpreter is better
> for a beginner ?
If you decide to follow the advice given above, you might want to look at
http://www-swiss.ai.mit.edu/~jaffer/SCM.html
This is a good Scheme which runs on many platforms.
Good Luck!
M.
Francois Denis-Gonthier wrote:
> 1) Which is best, LISP or Prolog (I'll ask that question to comp.lang.prolog
> either) ?
Depends what you want to do with them. If you want to do something
that is naturally expressed in Prolog, Prolog is probably better.
If not, LISP is probably better (being more of a general-purpose
language). You should learn both.
> 2) What are the main different features between LISP and Prolog ?
They're different enough languages that this probably isn't the
right question to be asking...
> 3) Does LISP worth learning for a computer science novice-intermediate ?
Absolutely, because
- it's of great historical interest (the only older language
still being used is COBOL. Of course LISP has matured somewhat
since the 1950s, and COBOL probably has too).
- it's a startlingly versatile language -- in particular,
(1) you can implement almost anything using closures and
(2) the Lisp macro system allows you to make what you've
implemented look nice.
- it's very different from the `mainstream' languages that
everyone knows (C, Pascal, BASIC, and so on), so knowing it
will enlarge your mind. (This applies at least as strongly
to Prolog, too.)
- it has some big advantages compared with most other languages;
for instance, the fact that Lisp implementations are generally
interactive rather than batched (edit/compile/run) makes
for fast development.
> 5) What is the best Common LISP or ANSI LISP compiler/interpreter is better
> for a beginner ?
There are a number of good ones.
- CLisp is a pre-ANSI Common Lisp system with an interpreter
and a byte-compiler (i.e., it produces not native code but
a sort of pseudo-machine-code that's then interpreted).
It's not too resource-hungry, and has been ported to many
platforms.
- CMU Common Lisp is an ANSI (or nearly ANSI, or something)
Common Lisp system with an interpreter, a byte-compiler and
a native code compiler. It produces extremely good code
(although its performance on Intel processors is not as
good as its performance on some others with more registers).
These two are free (in every sense: they cost nothing, they
come with source code, and you can redistribute them if you
want to).
- Allegro Common Lisp is a commercial Common Lisp system,
very highly spoken of by those who use it. You can get a
full version for Linux for free from Franz (who make and
sell it), but its licence expires at the end of this year.
I don't know what Franz intend to do for the future.
I think there's also a free version for Windows, but it
lacks some features (I forget which. Maybe no compiler,
or it only runs for N minutes at a time, or something).
- FreeLisp is a sort of cut-down Windows version of Harlequin's
LispWorks. I don't know whether it's any good. It doesn't
include a compiler.
> 6) Where can I find a good LISP tutorial on Internet ?
I'm not sure, but I'm sure the answer can be found in this
newsgroup's FAQ list, which appears here every month.
If you're a beginner, you might want to learn Scheme before you
learn Common Lisp. Scheme is a small and elegant Lisp dialect,
much smaller and cleaner than Common Lisp. I personally wouldn't
much want to have to write anything really large in Scheme, but
you might find it more manageable to learn. If you decide to
start with Common Lisp, don't be intimidated by its sheer size;
you can use the language without knowing all its hairy features.
--
Gareth McCaughan Dept. of Pure Mathematics & Mathematical Statistics,
·····@dpmms.cam.ac.uk Cambridge University, England.
Gareth McCaughan wrote:
> - it's of great historical interest (the only older language
> still being used is COBOL. Of course LISP has matured somewhat
> since the 1950s, and COBOL probably has too).
Lisp is older than COBOL, at least by a few months. FORTRAN
is older than Lisp by several years.
> - it's very different from the `mainstream' languages that
> everyone knows (C, Pascal, BASIC, and so on), so knowing it
> will enlarge your mind. (This applies at least as strongly
> to Prolog, too.)
Prolog is even more different from mainstream languages than Lisp.
> These two are free (in every sense: they cost nothing, they
> come with source code, and you can redistribute them if you
> want to).
>
> - Allegro Common Lisp is a commercial Common Lisp system,
> very highly spoken of by those who use it. You can get a
> full version for Linux for free from Franz (who make and
> sell it), but its licence expires at the end of this year.
> I don't know what Franz intend to do for the future.
> I think there's also a free version for Windows, but it
> lacks some features (I forget which. Maybe no compiler,
> or it only runs for N minutes at a time, or something).
>
> - FreeLisp is a sort of cut-down Windows version of Harlequin's
> LispWorks. I don't know whether it's any good. It doesn't
> include a compiler.
XLispStat is also free, and is less demanding on memory. It's
not Common Lisp, but it's close enough for you not to notice
most of the time.
> If you're a beginner, you might want to learn Scheme before you
> learn Common Lisp. Scheme is a small and elegant Lisp dialect,
> much smaller and cleaner than Common Lisp. I personally wouldn't
> much want to have to write anything really large in Scheme, but
> you might find it more manageable to learn. If you decide to
> start with Common Lisp, don't be intimidated by its sheer size;
> you can use the language without knowing all its hairy features.
I'm often surprised when, having solved a problem in Lisp,
I find that there's a predefined function which already does it --
e.g. recently someone posted a question which I solved using
(length (remove-if-not ...)) without realizing that I could have
done (count-if ...) instead.
> Gareth McCaughan Dept. of Pure Mathematics & Mathematical Statistics,
--
Le Hibou (mo bheachd fhe/in: my own opinion)
"What the ... This is Lambic! Where's my culture of amoebic
dysentery?"
-- Gary Larson
Donald Fisk <···········@bt-sys.bt.spamblock.co.uk> writes:
>
> Gareth McCaughan wrote:
>
> > - it's of great historical interest (the only older language
> > still being used is COBOL. Of course LISP has matured somewhat
> > since the 1950s, and COBOL probably has too).
>
> Lisp is older than COBOL, at least by a few months. FORTRAN
> is older than Lisp by several years.
See http://computer.org/computer/timeline/timeline.pdf,
especially pp 26 and 29.
The first FORTRAN compiler was delivered in 1957, the first Lisp
system was available in 1959, and the Committee on Data Systems
Languages (CODASYL) was formed in 1959 to create COBOL. Now
computer standards moved faster then, but I doubt that the first
COBOL compiler was available before 1961.
- David
Donald Fisk wrote:
> > - it's of great historical interest (the only older language
> > still being used is COBOL. Of course LISP has matured somewhat
> > since the 1950s, and COBOL probably has too).
>
> Lisp is older than COBOL, at least by a few months. FORTRAN
> is older than Lisp by several years.
oops, braino. You're right.
> > - it's very different from the `mainstream' languages that
> > everyone knows (C, Pascal, BASIC, and so on), so knowing it
> > will enlarge your mind. (This applies at least as strongly
> > to Prolog, too.)
>
> Prolog is even more different from mainstream languages than Lisp.
I thought I (implicitly) said that, in that parenthesis. Oh well.
--
Gareth McCaughan Dept. of Pure Mathematics & Mathematical Statistics,
·····@dpmms.cam.ac.uk Cambridge University, England.
Fran�ois-Denis Gonthier wheezed these wise words:
> Hi everybody,
Namaste!
> I'm 17 and greatly interrested in any domains of computer science. I tought
> about learning one of the well known AI language, LISP or Prolog. I'm
> posting it here cos comp.lang.prolog appear not to be frequented alot.
You should find that comp.lang.prolog will be able to answer your
questions about Prolog.
> 1) Which is best, LISP or Prolog (I'll ask that question to comp.lang.prolog
> either) ?
That'll depend on who you ask. ;) What is it that you want to do?
I like Prolog, but I prefer Lisp. It may just be that Lisp suits the
things that I do better than Prolog, or it may just reflect my tastes.
> 2) What are the main different features between LISP and Prolog ?
Hmm. There are many ways of answering this. How deep do you want the
answer to be? What are the differences between Lambda calculus and
predicate logic? What are the differences between prefix notation and
infix? Functional vs declarative? There are many distinctions that can
be made, and not all of them will be helpful for you.
My recommendation would be to read some good books on both languages,
and then decide for yourself. Everyone has their own list of good Lisp
books, but here are a few that I particularly like right now:
Patrick H. Winston and Berthold K. P. Horn.
"LISP", 3rd edition.
Addison-Wesley (Reading, MA), 1989. 611 pages. ISBN 0-201-08319-1
Prolog: Programming for Articifial Intelligence, Second Edition
Ivan Bratko
Addison Wesley
> 3) Does LISP worth learning for a computer science novice-intermediate ?
I think so. CS always helps, but you can learn Lisp without it. Some
CS can be found in a good language tutorial. You learn more than just
the language, while things that you've learned elsewhere can help you
when you find similar material in a language tutorial. You'll find
familiar concepts in an unfamiliar language, and this can show you how
easily these old ideas can be written in Lisp. You may also find some
new ideas, but you'll learn them along with the language.
The Winstonm & Horn book, mentioned above, spends half the book
teaching you the language, and the rest of the book shows you how to
program in Lisp by giving you loads of good code. Highly recommended.
> 5) What is the best Common LISP or ANSI LISP compiler/interpreter is better
> for a beginner ?
My favourite free Common Lisp system for Windows is ACL/PC, available
from <URL:http://www.franz.com>.
> 6) Where can I find a good LISP tutorial on Internet ?
I don't know if this is the best, but ou could try:
<URL:http://http.tamu.edu:8000/~colin/lp/>.
If you have any more questions, just ask away. You'll get plenty of
answers, I'm sure.
--
Please note: my email address is munged; You can never browse enough
"Oh knackers!" - Mark Radcliffe
In article <············@newsbell.bellglobal.com>,
Fran�ois-Denis Gonthier <·······@icrdl.net> wrote:
>Hi everybody,
>
Hi!
>I'm 17 and greatly interrested in any domains of computer science. I tought
>about learning one of the well known AI language, LISP or Prolog. I'm
>posting it here cos comp.lang.prolog appear not to be frequented alot. I
>know some C, C++. I'm learning Java and I programmed Visual Basic. I'm
>also quite good at ASM (PC). I have some question concerning LISP. I'll be
>happy with any answers.
>
>1) Which is best, LISP or Prolog (I'll ask that question to comp.lang.prolog
>either) ?
>
It depends on what you're doing. Lisp is at least more versatile, in
that it is easier to do different sorts of programming in it. FWIW,
I like Lisp and don't particularly like Prolog.
If you have the time and resources, I'd strongly recommend learning
both of them. I think that computer scientists should have some
experience with different sorts of programming languages. You've
used procedural and object-oriented, so you might want to learn
functional programming with Lisp and declarative with Prolog.
>2) What are the main different features between LISP and Prolog ?
>
There's so many that it's difficult to give a good answer.
Prolog is a declarative language, in which you write facts and
implications and then can ask questions. It would be nice to
write things in first-order logic and have the computer solve them,
but this is known to be impossible in the general case. Prolog
comes about as close as is computationally feasible, meaning that
it sacrifices some expressiveness (it is incapable of expressing
logical NOT, although there's a hack that does a similar thing
much of the time) and forces the programmer to consider some
procedural stuff.
Lisp is a very fluid language, and can be easily written in
functional, procedural, or object-oriented style. Other people have
written on this in this thread.
>3) Does LISP worth
learning for a computer science novice-intermediate ?
>
Yes! If you wish to learn computer science, as opposed to learning
how to program in languages there's a current market for, I strongly
suggest learning Lisp, and recommend Prolog slightly less strongly.
A computer scientist should have a more general view of computation
than you'll get through C/C++/Java/Basic (which are very similar
languages in many ways). Lisp and Prolog will give you such a view.
(Now, of course, if you were fluent in Lisp and Prolog, I'd recommend
learning C or Java or C++ to counterbalance that.)
Also, Lisp does some very nice things. I consider it the best language
by far when I don't know what I'm doing. (When I know what I'm doing,
I can do it in C++ or Java. It's still more work, but the tools are
cheaper.) If you are going to experiment like a good scientist should,
you need to pick up some sort of language for rapid prototype
development, and it's good if it's a scalable language. IMHO, the
scripting languages like Perl and languages like Basic don't scale
up nearly as well.
>5) What is the best Common LISP or ANSI LISP compiler/interpreter is better
>for a beginner ?
>
Um, the best one you can find? If cost is no object, I'd recommend
Macintosh Common Lisp, which would require buying a Macintosh if you
don't have one already.
To answer this question intelligently, I need to know a few more things.
What sort of system do you have? (I assume an Intel-based one, from
your introduction.) Do you have other systems available to learn on,
perhaps some Unix systems? How much money are you willing to spend?
You should be able to get an acceptable free Lisp. One thing you will
find you need is an editor that balances parentheses for you. I tried
to learn Lisp a few decades ago without such an editor, and got really
frustrated. Now that I've done some Lisp, I still find that invaluable.
>6) Where can I find a good LISP tutorial on Internet ?
>
The website of the Association of Lisp Users is at
http://www.elwoodcorp.com/alu/
last I checked. It will be moving to
http://www.lisp.org
or
http://www.alu.org
at some time, but my DNS doesn't find them yet. They have a list of
eight on-line tutorials, of which seven are presumably in English
and one in German. Some of these are specialized, but some are
general. If nothing else, the ALU is an excellent place to look
for more information on Lisp.
>NB: My english is not perfect, so be comprehensive if I wrote phrases that
>look strange for you.
>
I'm understanding you fine, which is more than you'd say if I tried
a language other than English!
--
David H. Thornley | These opinions are mine. I
·····@thornley.net | do give them freely to those
http://www.thornley.net/~thornley/david/ | who run too slowly.
"Fran�ois-Denis Gonthier" <·······@icrdl.net> writes:
1) Which is best, LISP or Prolog (I'll ask that question
to comp.lang.prolog either) ?
It can't hurt you to learn both.
2) What are the main different features between LISP and Prolog ?
The two are extraordinarily different.
One broad partition of languages is this:
* languages where it's hard to get your program started.
* languages where it's hard to get your program stopped.
Most imperative programming languages (Fortran, Algol, PL/I, Ada,
C and C++, Perl, and indeed Lisp) I would put in the first category.
Many AI problem-solving languages (Prolog included) I'd put in the
second category. They make it easy to get certain answers with
little programming, because they're willing to run off and make all
manner of conclusions on the basis of very little data. This works
well on small problems because there are few such conclusions to draw.
But as problems scale, the cost of those "favors" adds up and you end
up almost reverse-programming--working hard to keep it from doing you
favors so you can keep the time it takes to a bounded amount.
You basically never get anything for free in the world, so when something
seems super-easy (as many things do in Prolog), you have to keep in
mind that somehow you're going to pay later.
All in all, I find the traditional class of programming languages
better, but I admit it's a matter of taste. There are people I
respect greatly who rave about Prolog.
3) Does LISP worth learning for a computer science novice-intermediate ?
Yes. Even if you never used it, the way of thinking that comes from
studying it will serve you well for your whole career. But also, the
truth is that Lisp is better for big problems than small ones, and so
you should know it is out there. People will show you all kinds of
examples with "hello world" programs aimed at showing you that Lisp is
unsuitable, but you should always have in the back of your mind when
you think a problem is "too hard" that maybe it's finally time to
consider Lisp. Lisp is great for large problems, problems that
change, problems that involve ill-defined data, problems that require
lots of fault tolerance, etc. More conventional languages like C are
better for problems that are very well-understood and mostly
mechanical to program and where you have complete knowledge of the
problem at compile-time.
5) What is the best Common LISP or ANSI LISP compiler/interpreter
is better for a beginner ?
Harlequin's FreeLisp is an interpreter you can get for free. It does
not come with a compiler because it's free, but we (Harlequin) do sell
a version with a compiler. Go to http://www.harlequin.com/ and look
for FreeLisp.
6) Where can I find a good LISP tutorial on Internet ?
You're better off looking in hardcopy books. The net has a lot of good
reference materials, but most of them are not tutorial-oriented.
"Fran�ois-Denis Gonthier" <·······@icrdl.net> writes:
>
> Hi everybody,
>
> I'm 17 and greatly interrested in any domains of computer science. I tought
> about learning one of the well known AI language, LISP or Prolog. I'm
> posting it here cos comp.lang.prolog appear not to be frequented alot. I
> know some C, C++. I'm learning Java and I programmed Visual Basic. I'm
> also quite good at ASM (PC). I have some question concerning LISP. I'll be
> happy with any answers.
This sounds like a highly commendable course of action.
> 1) Which is best, LISP or Prolog (I'll ask that question to comp.lang.prolog
> either) ?
> 2) What are the main different features between LISP and Prolog ?
Well, it really depends on what you will want to do. Lisp is a general
purpose programming language, whereas Prolog provides a much more
structured approach to a particular method of programming--logical
proofs using backtracking.
They are both interesting for different reasons. One could, in fact,
write a reasonable prolog interpreter in Lisp. A simple prolog-style
interpreter without some of the special operations found in commercial
grade prolog systems could be written pretty easily. It would in fact
be an interesting exercise in learning about backtracking problem
solving.
> 3) Does LISP worth learning for a computer science novice-intermediate ?
Certainly. One option you might consider would be to look at Scheme, a
dialect of lisp that isn't quite as extensive a language as ANSI Common
Lisp. One big advantage of Scheme is that there is a great book for
learning a lot about computer science via Scheme. I'm referring to
Sussman & Abelson's Structure and Interpreatation of Computer Programs.
In fact, the Massachusetts Institute of Technology (and some other fine
schools) use this book for entry-level instruction of computer science
and electrical engineering undergraduates.
> 5) What is the best Common LISP or ANSI LISP compiler/interpreter is better
> for a beginner ?
There are a number of Scheme implementations.
My personal favorite Common Lisp development system is Digitool's
Macintosh Common Lisp. It does require a Macintosh computer to run,
however.
> 6) Where can I find a good LISP tutorial on Internet ?
I don't know about this, but I can recommend a couple of books:
Sussman & Abelson. Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs.
Norvig. Paradigms of Artificial Intelligence Programming: Case
Studies in Common Lisp.
Sussman & Abelson provide a terrific background that touches on major
issues in Computer Science language design. Norvig explores a lot of
different areas in artificial intelligence programming. It is more
specialized, since it doesn't try to cover as much area.
[Disclaimer: MIT graduate. I know both Sussman & Abelson. I still
think they have the greatest undergraduate instructional textbook.]
--
Thomas A. Russ, USC/Information Sciences Institute ···@isi.edu
"Fran�ois-Denis Gonthier" <·······@icrdl.net> writes:
> 1) Which is best, LISP or Prolog?
That depends...
I would recommend learning both.
First Prolog because it changes the way you think about programming.
Then Lisp because it is more useful. (Sorry, Prolog fans)
If you choose to look at Lisp, be aware that it is very easy to think
of it as "a different way of writing C". This is wrong because you
only learn part of Lisp this way. And it is the least interesting
part.
I think learning Prolog first can make it easier to avoid this trap,
because you have already seen that programmming can be done in other
ways than C.
Stig Hemmer.
?- can_be_written_in(prolog,lisp)
yes.
(can-be-written-in-p 'lisp 'prolog)
t
Thanx... you are all great. I swear I'll learn LISP or Prolog after I
learned JAVA. I'll continue to read about both. I'll be back in a couple
of month.
Fran�ois-Denis Gonther
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Fran�ois-Denis Gonthier wrote:
> 6) Where can I find a good LISP tutorial on Internet ?
>
>
The Department of psychology of the University of Trier (de) has created a
LISP-tutorial on Internet.
It is a personalised learning-system for aboslute beginners, leading yoou step
by step through several lessons.
Exercises a individually evaluated; hints are given, how to find the right
answer to a question.
If your answers to most of the questions are OK, you are leaded to the next
lesson; otherwise the system recommends to re-read the previoous lesson.
The system remembers your results from previous sessions, so next time you
start a session, you get immediately back to where you stopped before.
This tutorial is in german and in english.
http://apsymac33.uni-trier.de:8000/elm-art/login-e.html
--
MOURIS Jean-Jacques
http://www.fsai.fh-trier.de/~mourisj/
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François-Denis Gonthier wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>6) Where can I find a good LISP tutorial on Internet
?
<BR>
<BR> </BLOCKQUOTE>
The Department of psychology of the University of Trier (de) has
created a LISP-tutorial on Internet.
<P>It is a personalised learning-system for aboslute beginners, leading
yoou step by step through several lessons.
<P>Exercises a individually evaluated; hints are given, how to find the
right answer to a question.
<P>If your answers to most of the questions are OK, you are leaded to the
next lesson; otherwise the system recommends to re-read the previoous lesson.
<P>The system remembers your results from previous sessions, so next time
you start a session, you get immediately back to where you stopped before.
<P>This tutorial is in german and in english.
<P><A HREF="http://apsymac33.uni-trier.de:8000/elm-art/login-e.html">http://apsymac33.uni-trier.de:8000/elm-art/login-e.html</A>
<PRE>--
MOURIS Jean-Jacques
<A HREF="http://www.fsai.fh-trier.de/~mourisj/">http://www.fsai.fh-trier.de/~mourisj/</A>
</PRE>
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