From: ········@bayou.uh.edu
Subject: Re: C++ briar patch (Was: Object IDs are bad)
Date:
Message-ID: <5lj6br$3t2$2@Masala.CC.UH.EDU>
Alaric B. Williams (······@abwillms.demon.co.uk) wrote:
: On Wed, 14 May 1997 21:02:41 -0700, Dean Roddey
: <·······@ng.netgate.net> wrote:
: >Alaric B. Williams wrote:
: >Once again, I appreciate your deep insights, but I don't have time for
: >another pissing contest. Nothing I ever say will convince you of
: >anything, so I just don't have the time to waste. Sorry.
: Hey, that's OK, I wasn't actually hoping for a flamewar anyway! I was
: in a somewhat bad mood with people extolling anti-scientific arguments
: like yours at the time.
Don't you find it amusing how Dean was all to happy to get into a
"pissing contest", but suddenly felt bad about it when he kept on
getting his points countered left and right? How much would you
like to bet that he'd be spraying a stream of urine 3 feet wide
if he felt he had the upper hand in the discussion?
: All my points still stand, though; the anger only affected my wording!
Nothing to apologize for, Dean wasn't exactly Mr. Cheer either.
: >Dean Roddey
: ABW
: --
: Limited Warranty: Macrosoft Corporation cannot accept
: any responsobility for geological, ecological, biological, sociological,
: political, or nuclear disasters caused by Windows for Early Warning
: and Defence. The software is supplied as is, with no express or
: implied warranty, and with no guarantee of fitness of purpose,
: or sufficient reliability to be placed in a situation to threaten
: millions, if not billions, of innocent lives.
: FUN: http://www.abwillms.demon.co.uk/alaric/wfewad.htm
: INTERESTING: http://www.abwillms.demon.co.uk/os/
: OTHER: http://www.abwillms.demon.co.uk/
--
Cya,
Ahmed
On 17 May 1997 02:49:31 GMT, ········@Bayou.UH.EDU
(········@bayou.uh.edu) wrote:
>: >Alaric B. Williams wrote:
>
>: >Once again, I appreciate your deep insights, but I don't have time for
>: >another pissing contest. Nothing I ever say will convince you of
>: >anything, so I just don't have the time to waste. Sorry.
>Don't you find it amusing how Dean was all to happy to get into a
>"pissing contest", but suddenly felt bad about it when he kept on
>getting his points countered left and right?
The thought had crossed my mind!
> How much would you
>like to bet that he'd be spraying a stream of urine 3 feet wide
>if he felt he had the upper hand in the discussion?
I think that a common problem in the C/C++ camp is misinformation.
People don't really understand very high level languages (VHLLs), and
get the impression we're the ones in the wrong; diehard language
bigots, like those people who go around looking at PCs and saying
">sigh< my Amiga did all that /much/ better, 5 years ago, and for half
the cost", and acting as though Amigas were the best computers in the
world.
They weren't. They just had a good hardware architecture. The OS had
no form of memory protection, and the super-efficient graphics
hardware was based more towards the low-resolution high-colour modes
favoured by computer games than the high-res 256-colour type graphics
generally favoured for "serious" work like word processing. So the
Amiga was successful as a graphics platform, and rightly, too; the
people who complain that they were better than PCs are trying to
compare apples and oranges.
To get back to the point, C/C++ people often seem to think that VHLL
people are harking after something we think to be really cool for the
wrong reasons. They think "Jeeze, you can't even cast between pointers
and ints. How can I write my fast array search in that thing?".
They are misinformed.
This effect manifests itself when people like Dean say things like
"Huh, I'm not surprised C++ won over all your crap languages. Wake up
to the real world", followed by a whole load of /incorrect/
statements, many of which are totally hilarious to VHLL gurus.
I was particularily amused at the suggestion that C++ is good because
everything is out in libraries, rather than in the language core!
I'd like to make a webpage oriented at C/C++ programmers, explaining
all the common misconceptions about functional languages in terms
they'll be able to relate to. That might help.
In the meantime, I'd suggest that anyone out there who thinks C++ is a
powerful language lurk on comp.lang.functional for a while. It's not a
very high volume group unless a comp.lang.c++ crosspost war starts up!
>: All my points still stand, though; the anger only affected my wording!
>Nothing to apologize for, Dean wasn't exactly Mr. Cheer either.
True :-)
>Cya,
>Ahmed
ABW
--
Limited Warranty: Macrosoft Corporation cannot accept
any responsobility for geological, ecological, biological, sociological,
political, or nuclear disasters caused by Windows for Early Warning
and Defence. The software is supplied as is, with no express or
implied warranty, and with no guarantee of fitness of purpose,
or sufficient reliability to be placed in a situation to threaten
millions, if not billions, of innocent lives.
FUN: http://www.abwillms.demon.co.uk/alaric/wfewad.htm
INTERESTING: http://www.abwillms.demon.co.uk/os/
OTHER: http://www.abwillms.demon.co.uk/
From: Peter da Silva
Subject: Re: C++ briar patch (Was: Object IDs are bad)
Date:
Message-ID: <5meopt$n0v@web.nmti.com>
In article <················@news.demon.co.uk>,
Alaric B. Williams <······@abwillms.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> They weren't. They just had a good hardware architecture.
Not really. On the first 68000 based amigas the graphics hardware was a win,
but not a huge win, and for the 68020 based ones the CPU was better than the
blitter.
> The OS had no form of memory protection,
This is true, but as proven by such real-time microkernel operating systems
such as QNX you can get the same sort of performance without sacrificing
memory protection. The original Amiga operating system had protected memory
support (that's what MEMF_PUBLIC was for) but the initial hardware didn't
have any and backward compatibility issues kept them from implementing
them with the limited resources Commodore had as it slid into bankruptcy.
And the resolution of the original Amiga video was much better than that of
the other PCs of the same era. Again, a lack of resources kept them from
progressing much beyond the original specs (though my Amiga 3000 supports
1280 by 512, which was pretty damn good for the time, and third party products
went well beyond that).
In this discussion I'd put the Amiga users in the Lisp camp. The Wintels are
MUCH more like C++, with layers of patches to cover up the original design
decisions.
--
The Reverend Peter da Silva, ULC, COQO, BOFH, 3D0G, KIBO, POPE Ziggy Wotzit II.
Har du kramat din varg, idag? `-_-' Kulanu Kibo.
Hail Eris! All Hail Discordia! Vi er alle Kibo.
HEIL KIBO! HEIL KIBO! HEIL KIBO! Wir sind alle Kibo.
In article <··········@web.nmti.com>, Peter da Silva wrote:
>Not really. On the first 68000 based amigas the graphics hardware was a win,
>but not a huge win, and for the 68020 based ones the CPU was better than the
>blitter.
Hmm, I thought it was still a win on faster CPU's if you had cpu intensive
background processes.
--
Darin Johnson
·····@usa.net.delete_me
From: Peter da Silva
Subject: Re: C++ briar patch (Was: Object IDs are bad)
Date:
Message-ID: <5mvbus$rr@web.nmti.com>
In article <····················@connectnet1.connectnet.com>,
Darin Johnson <·····@usa.net.delete_me> wrote:
> In article <··········@web.nmti.com>, Peter da Silva wrote:
> >Not really. On the first 68000 based amigas the graphics hardware was a win,
> >but not a huge win, and for the 68020 based ones the CPU was better than the
> >blitter.
> Hmm, I thought it was still a win on faster CPU's if you had cpu intensive
> background processes.
For certain specialized cases, running entirely out of non-blitter-accessible
memory, it might have been. However overall system performance was faster
when you installed patches that used the CPU instead of the blitter for most
tasks.
--
The Reverend Peter da Silva, ULC, COQO, BOFH, 3D0G, KIBO, POPE Ziggy Wotzit II.
Har du kramat din varg, idag? `-_-' Kulanu Kibo.
Hail Eris! All Hail Discordia! Vi er alle Kibo.
HEIL KIBO! HEIL KIBO! HEIL KIBO! Wir sind alle Kibo.